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 Crowd size and league position.
Topic Originator: PARrot  
Date:   Sun 28 Oct 16:34

This subject keeps coming up and it really does my head in.
Because we apparently have the biggest crowd in the division we should romp it.

Lets just think about this.

How many players do you think are available to Championship teams. Decent, championship level players and some who could make it in the premiership but prefer first team football to sitting on the bench.
I would suggest there are enough of a very similar calibre to fill several squads.
Better wages may attract a few of the top choices but no championship team can afford wages to attract the best in every position. Even if they did nobody would agree who the best were.
We could fill the squad with the best as we see it but that still leaves pllllllllenty of similar ability for several other teams.
Even with the best on our budget what is left to others at this level is not going to be much poorer than us.
To have a real advantage we would need to have a considerably higher budget and a reckless will to risk the very existence of the club.
The few grand extra we get goes to maintaining one of the better stadiums too.

We will not be in a position to buy the sort of squad to dominate this division until we are getting SPL money. Once we get there and with our support we should be able to maintain a squad that is a good bit better than championship level.
Until then it will be a hard battle against teams of a similar ability.

The size of the support in this division may give a slight advantage but nothing like what some seem to demand.

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 Re: Crowd size and league position.
Topic Originator: da_no_1  
Date:   Sun 28 Oct 16:50

Over to you mach1....

"Some days will stay a 1000 years, some pass like the flash of a spark"
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 Re: Crowd size and league position.
Topic Originator: kelty_par  
Date:   Sun 28 Oct 16:54

"Because we apparently have the biggest crowd in the division we should romp it."

That has literally never been said by anyone, ever, let alone coming up all the time. For one thing, Dundee Utd have bigger crowds than us. For another, while a few people were suggesting we might win the league, nobody suggested we'd romp it. If anything, the only team anyone thought may romp it was Ross County given they had a parachute payment, Uncle Roy's millions, a decent squad that they'd then bolstered by taking two of our beat players, the best player from Inverness and another few guys from the Premiership.

So where does that leave us? We'll pay similar amounts to Falkirk (who are obviously having a nightmare season) and possibly Partick (who are also having a poor season) but less than Ross County and Dundee Utd. We'll be paying more than Ayr, Morton, Queen of the South (except Dobbie in all likelihood) and Alloa. We have a large, fairly expensively assemvled squad (I make it 23 or so with none of them barring Gill being youngsters on small wages). I dont thibk being annoyed at one home win in 7 with 2 goals scored is unreasonable to be honest. Esp3cislly since the football is so poor.
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 Re: Crowd size and league position.
Topic Originator: mach1  
Date:   Sun 28 Oct 17:24

I have never suggested that because we have better crowds than other clubs that we should romp any match, far less a league.

My argument about crowd size is purely that if we are debt free, having larger crowds, season sales, centenary club income and other inputs like marv's shop, should give us some advantage in commercial terms over other clubs with lesser support.
I know other factors come into play like rich benefactors, lower running costs.

What I did say, as did Ozpar, is that we are comparable with Killie and it is frustrating that we are no longer in the same league.

That of course leads onto the other point that if we ever hope to get the advantage of our decent sized support we need to be in the top division and/or get some revenue in from transfer fees, highly unlikely with our current underperforming squad.

So just to summarise, nobody I know thinks like the opening lines of Parrot's OP suggests.
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 Re: Crowd size and league position.
Topic Originator: WheelKing99  
Date:   Sun 28 Oct 17:25

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 Re: Crowd size and league position.
Topic Originator: 1970par  
Date:   Sun 28 Oct 17:40

The crowds are no more falsified than any other team in our league, we now report the crowd the same as the other clubs

For years we reported on how many were in the satdium which made teams like Falkirk appear to have bigger gates than we did
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 Re: Crowd size and league position.
Topic Originator: parbucks  
Date:   Sun 28 Oct 17:45

Who said or first team pool were on three hundred a week?
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 Re: Crowd size and league position.
Topic Originator: WheelKing99  
Date:   Sun 28 Oct 17:45

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 Re: Crowd size and league position.
Topic Originator: mach1  
Date:   Sun 28 Oct 17:50

Creative digital accounting lol.
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 Re: Crowd size and league position.
Topic Originator: chewie  
Date:   Sun 28 Oct 18:05

Neither St Mirren nor Livingston had the biggest budget or the biggest crowds. Good management and The right choice of players is what is needed to get out of this league.
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 Re: Crowd size and league position.
Topic Originator: JamesAndrew74  
Date:   Sun 28 Oct 18:13

Quote:

mach1, Sun 28 Oct 17:24

I have never suggested that because we have better crowds than other clubs that we should romp any match, far less a league.

My argument about crowd size is purely that if we are debt free, having larger crowds, season sales, centenary club income and other inputs like marv's shop, should give us some advantage in commercial terms over other clubs with lesser support.
I know other factors come into play like rich benefactors, lower running costs.

What I did say, as did Ozpar, is that we are comparable with Killie and it is frustrating that we are no longer in the same league.

That of course leads onto the other point that if we ever hope to get the advantage of our decent sized support we need to be in the top division and/or get some revenue in from transfer fees, highly unlikely with our current underperforming squad.

So just to summarise, nobody I know thinks like the opening lines of Parrot's OP suggests.


Billy Bowie has invested over 1 million into Killie so you can’t begin to compare us. That and the fact they earn 9-10 times we do from league receipts.
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 Re: Crowd size and league position.
Topic Originator: PARrot  
Date:   Sun 28 Oct 18:38

The important part of my post was pointing out that even if we had the best players at this level via our "Superior budget" the other teams have plenty similar to compete with us.

There are no "Shoit" teams here.
All much the same.
I must be imagining all the, "With our budget" posts.



Post Edited (Sun 28 Oct 18:39)
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 Re: Crowd size and league position.
Topic Originator: Sliema Par  
Date:   Sun 28 Oct 18:39

Yes the OP is true.

However,by the same token,when we get Gates half the Premiership can only dream of,we do not expect to be floundering just above the trap door.....
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 Re: Crowd size and league position.
Topic Originator: mach1  
Date:   Sun 28 Oct 18:51

You've just shown the benefits of being in the upper league.

Nobody yet has answered a question I raise a few times.

Given that we are debt free, have decent crowds and season ticket sales plus other income streams, when will we in future be doing more than breaking even, or are we destined to be static in financial terms for ever.

If we can't get into that top league and we can't otherwise increase income and we can't reduce expenditure, that seems to be the case.

Please advise me if I am missing something obvious.

It just concerns me that we are in a Catch 22 scenario. Can't spend, so can't get promotion, so can't spend ad infinitum.

And before anyone says anything, I am absolutely not suggesting that we spend what we don't have, or take on debt, even if we could.
Nor do I have the answers, short of winning a big lottery sum and doing what that couple did with Ayr United.
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 Re: Crowd size and league position.
Topic Originator: parbucks  
Date:   Sun 28 Oct 18:56

M1

In those circumstances we should spend wisely.

Some of AJ’s signings and the utilisation thereof have been a waste of money.

I’ll avoid names but 3 or 4 of those playing yesterday were an example.
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 Re: Crowd size and league position.
Topic Originator: PARrot  
Date:   Sun 28 Oct 19:01

I suppose our advantage will increase over time if we spend wisely. In time it will tell. Not easy being patient though is it.

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 Re: Crowd size and league position.
Topic Originator: 1981par  
Date:   Sun 28 Oct 19:01

Nothing to do with the squad of players. We have one of the strongest teams in the league.
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 Re: Crowd size and league position.
Topic Originator: JimMcDAFC  
Date:   Sun 28 Oct 19:05

Was it in the papers this week that the top league are to receive money from eufa because of Celtics run in their comp. last year. Can't remember the exact amount but it was over 300,000 thousand pounds for each club and that includes Ross County and Patrick Thistle. Does none of this money trickle down to the lower divisions.?
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 Re: Crowd size and league position.
Topic Originator: 1981par  
Date:   Sun 28 Oct 19:06

It doesn’t
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 Re: Crowd size and league position.
Topic Originator: eastendalloapar  
Date:   Sun 28 Oct 19:18

I didn't think it was Ayr I thought it Partick Thistle and it went towards their youth development.

matt forsyth
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 Re: Crowd size and league position.
Topic Originator: Raymie the Legend  
Date:   Sun 28 Oct 19:19

Mach 1

The board will definitely operate prudently whilst in charge and will release funds accordingly.
The fact that our gates are dropping will probably mean that less money or even no money is available in January to strengthen the team.
A catch 22 position indeed




It's bloody tough being a legend
Ron Atkinson - 1983
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 Re: Crowd size and league position.
Topic Originator: mach1  
Date:   Sun 28 Oct 19:40

My apologies, it was Patrick who got a million from the Weirs.

RTL, at least Yossarian survived his war and we'll survive too.
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 Re: Crowd size and league position.
Topic Originator: Raymie the Legend  
Date:   Sun 28 Oct 19:41

Was that a character in Boys from the Black Stuff?




It's bloody tough being a legend
Ron Atkinson - 1983
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 Re: Crowd size and league position.
Topic Originator: mach1  
Date:   Sun 28 Oct 20:41

No that was Yosser.
Yossarian was a pilot in Catch22 and probably the main character.
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 Re: Crowd size and league position.
Topic Originator: Raymie the Legend  
Date:   Sun 28 Oct 21:30

Come on, Mach. Just messing there




It's bloody tough being a legend
Ron Atkinson - 1983
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 Re: Crowd size and league position.
Topic Originator: mach1  
Date:   Sun 28 Oct 22:34

I humbly apologise.

No offence meant. I sometimes take everything so literally and thought it was a genuine question, especially with the two character names being similar.

And look at stupid me saying that Patrick got a million from the Weirs. Was that Patrick Kielty, Patrick Bonner, St. Patrick lol?
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