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 SPFL at it again
Topic Originator: buffy  
Date:   Tue 7 May 09:47

Proposed changes to the league set up for 2020/21.

Utter nonsense imo

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/48179898

“The Scottish Championship could be a 12-team league for the 2020-21 season under a potential league shake-up.

Prolonged talks have taken place between Scottish Professional Football League clubs over expanding the Scottish second tier by two teams.

Discussed proposals include adding two colts team to make a 44-club pyramid or merging Leagues One and Two.

The set-up could result in Championship sides playing each other four times across 44 games per season.

It is understood discussions have taken place and that, if agreed at this season's SPFL annual meeting, new measures could be in place in just over a year's time.

The current system has been in place for six years.

To facilitate a potential change to the structure of the Scottish game, options that are being considered include:

No relegation from next season's Championship, with the top two teams in League One receiving automatic promotion.
Retaining Leagues One and Two in their current format with one club from the Highland League and one from the Lowland League entering.
Introducing two colt teams from Premiership clubs.”

buffysbuns.wordpress.com
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 Re: SPFL at it again
Topic Originator: elvis_lives  
Date:   Tue 7 May 09:54

I wonder who the two youth teams could be 🤔
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 Re: SPFL at it again
Topic Originator: pars_andy  
Date:   Tue 7 May 10:25

Might suit us if there is no relegation next year.

==================================
"However vast the darkness, we must supply our own light." - Stanley Kubrick
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 Re: SPFL at it again
Topic Originator: veteraneastender  
Date:   Tue 7 May 10:30

"Might suit us if there is no relegation next year."

What a prospect for the Championship if that comes about - no end of season great escape games like we've just witnessed.
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 Re: SPFL at it again
Topic Originator: doctordandruff  
Date:   Tue 7 May 10:48

But to accommodate the current 'Save the SPL' team play-offs, our season will still need to finish end of April. So an extra 6 games to squeeze in. I guess an even more worn out/injured championship team in the play-offs would be a bonus
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 Re: SPFL at it again
Topic Originator: Sliema Par  
Date:   Tue 7 May 10:49

Who wants to go through that again?

Some of us are still traumatised!
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 Re: SPFL at it again
Topic Originator: buffy  
Date:   Tue 7 May 10:50

44 games - I mean seriously wtf?!

Supporters not taken into account yet again. Fleeced at every opportunity.

Playing each team x4, squeezing in winter call off fixtures and only ten months to play it.

Just can’t see how that would work - never mind the so-called Colt teams.

buffysbuns.wordpress.com
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 Re: SPFL at it again
Topic Originator: nick_dafc1  
Date:   Tue 7 May 10:54

Make it 14 SPL teams and then I’m all for it
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 Re: SPFL at it again
Topic Originator: The Roy Barry Fan Club  
Date:   Tue 7 May 10:54

I'd happily take it -- opportunity to give some of our youngsters a chance in the 1st team this year -- just when we have a good crop starting to come though.
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 Re: SPFL at it again
Topic Originator: mach1  
Date:   Tue 7 May 11:20

Three leagues of 14 each would be better than the current 12 and 3 tens imo.

Even better would be 18 and 2 twelves.

The structure needs changing to attempt to break the rich club monopoly, to spread the spoils a bit more fairly and to improve the standard for the paying customer hopefully.
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 Re: SPFL at it again
Topic Originator: Playup_Pompey  
Date:   Tue 7 May 11:25

16 team Prem with home and away. Extra fixtures picked up in league cup etc as seen start of last season?

They wont do it as will be scared of losing tv money with 2 less "guarenteed" Glasgow derbies.

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 Re: SPFL at it again
Topic Originator: eastendalloapar  
Date:   Tue 7 May 11:28

What happens in the cups? We could be faced with Celtic first team v Celtic colts in a final. Then what happens if Celtic colts win? Could a colt team end up playing in Europe? Plus can a colt team play 1st team players as loan players?

matt forsyth
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 Re: SPFL at it again
Topic Originator: renegade master  
Date:   Tue 7 May 11:32

Could also mean a good crop of Colts being available this season for loans to get them match hardened prior to next season.
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 Re: SPFL at it again
Topic Originator: DBP  
Date:   Tue 7 May 11:33

Quote:

eastendalloapar, Tue 7 May 11:28

What happens in the cups? We could be faced with Celtic first team v Celtic colts in a final. Then what happens if Celtic colts win? Could a colt team end up playing in Europe? Plus can a colt team play 1st team players as loan players?


What happens when the colts teams get promoted into SPFL? And what happens if the main team needs a win for the league and they are playing their Colt team?
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 Re: SPFL at it again
Topic Originator: Sliema Par  
Date:   Tue 7 May 11:35

The last time the SFSA had a survey on this; there was no lack of interest.

10,000 fans replied .

Most wanted what Play Up Pompey describes above.

The Football Authorities were not interested.

Remember the Premiership takes 83% of the TV Broadcasting income.The Championship is assigned 11%.

Oh and before you ask; The OF get 23% in total.

It also means the Championship gets 11% of the income from BBC Scotland's "Championship Sportscene" which is proving popular.
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 Re: SPFL at it again
Topic Originator: GJS93  
Date:   Tue 7 May 11:44

"Three leagues of 14 each would be better than the current 12 and 3 tens imo"

14 is way worse than 12 or 10s.

"Could also mean a good crop of Colts being available this season for loans to get them match hardened prior to next season"

it will be the same "colts" available regardless if they were allowed into the setup.

if it aint broke don't fix it, why increase it? oh to try and appease the Old Firm as usual, nothing else and should not be even considered imo.
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 Re: SPFL at it again
Topic Originator: parsmad68  
Date:   Tue 7 May 11:48

No mention then of making it easier for promotion & relegation from the top flight. The structure of the Championship is not the problem as we have just witnessed in recent months with games to the final round of matches meaning something to the majority of the league. What needs to change is this 1up/down to the Premiership that is stifling the Championship clubs. But that is only my opinion rather than the greedy Premier clubs that would love it to be closed shop.
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 Re: SPFL at it again
Topic Originator: Roobz  
Date:   Tue 7 May 11:53

The colts nonsense will only happen if the rest of the teams allow it to. But they've bent over so often to the Gruesome Twosome in the past there's no guarantee they won't do it again.

We already have far too many teams fighting over a rapidly shrinking piece of cake as it is, why on earth should we add more teams to it?

It's ridiculous to suggest we should have 44 teams in the league when England, with 10 times the population has 92.

2 leagues of 16, playing each other twice. Regional leagues below that with automatic promotion and relegation.

League Cup to have regionalised group stages, 2 teams from each division guaranteeing three more home matches. Group winners get home tie in first knock out round, runners up an away game.

16 non league teams qualify for 1st round of Scottish Cup and play the 16 Division 2 sides, with the winners going into last 32 with the Divsion 1 teams.

Job done.
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 Re: SPFL at it again
Topic Originator: GJS93  
Date:   Tue 7 May 11:54

Stenhousemuir chairman on twitter:

"Iain McMenemy‏ @iainmcmenemy

Replying to @BBCSportScot

This article is riddled with nonsense. No prolonged talks have taken place. No discussions on merging L1&L2, no consultation with L1&2 at all as yet. Lower leagues don’t want colts!"
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 Re: SPFL at it again
Topic Originator: elvis_lives  
Date:   Tue 7 May 12:01

Quote:

doctordandruff, Tue 7 May 10:48

But to accommodate the current 'Save the SPL' team play-offs, our season will still need to finish end of April. So an extra 6 games to squeeze in. I guess an even more worn out/injured championship team in the play-offs would be a bonus


It would be 8 games extra.

You would have to scrap the challenge cup if it went to 44.
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 Re: SPFL at it again
Topic Originator: SergioDuarte  
Date:   Tue 7 May 12:02

The championship should be a 16 team league with playoffs for promotion and relegation. Playing teams 4 times a season is boring. They ain’t going to ever change the premier league unless the bigot brothers die off. There’s always this pointless argument about meaningless games. It’s Scottish football ffs. If you think playing Alloa 4 times a season is exciting then you are gone in the head as far as I am concerned.
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 Re: SPFL at it again
Topic Originator: saltonsgonagetu  
Date:   Tue 7 May 12:17

Rangers Celtic are not entering the reserve league this year,as they say it is a waste of time ,but colts teams ,Celtic colts have been horsed 4-0 by Annan and 3-1

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 Re: SPFL at it again
Topic Originator: Playup_Pompey  
Date:   Tue 7 May 12:34

appreciate conflicting details but Kuddos to even looking to change.

The focus should really be the entire structure. As said above

3*16 leagues gives expansion by 6 teams?

2 up 2 down with playoffs. Lower leagues will scream "hell no" but only as want to protect themselves. what adds more to scottish football? A berwick/East stirlingshire winning a game a season or teams like East Kilbride/Lothian Thistle/Cove/Kelty who WANT to progress.

The EoS is thriving following the migration of many junior sides.

Removes the monotony of 4 games a season. The "league deciders" are really head to head etc.

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 Re: SPFL at it again
Topic Originator: Pibroch  
Date:   Tue 7 May 12:44

The 12 team format might work the same way as the Premiership ...a split after 33 games into 2 groups of 6
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 Re: SPFL at it again
Topic Originator: dafc  
Date:   Tue 7 May 13:00

Any colt teams should start at the bottom of the SPFL pyramid which is EOSL where Kelty and all other teams started, no parachuting straight into league
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 Re: SPFL at it again
Topic Originator: RhinoPars  
Date:   Tue 7 May 14:17

Following from Playup Pompey's post I too would support a 16 team top division and 16 team Championship. Our top league here has 16 teams playing each other twice (30 games) and it works well. The bottom team is automatically relegated and the second bottom side goes into a home and away mini-league with teams finishing 2nd and 3rd in the division below. What helps here is that the first major tournament of the season is a Top 8 cup competition and teams are trying to get into the top 8 right till the end of the season so they can take part. The beauty is that right to the end of the season almost all the teams are fighting for something be it winning the league, qualifying for the two African club tournament places, striving to getting into Top8 (so they qualify for next season's Top8 cup) or avoiding relegation. The Top8 tournament also gives the bigger teams more games against top sides. We fortunately don't have anyone here denigrating the cup as "diddy". We also have two other major cup competitions. The biggest two teams (in terms of support) also play a well supported pre-season match.
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 Re: SPFL at it again
Topic Originator: JimMcDAFC  
Date:   Tue 7 May 14:22

I seem to recall at the last reconstruction of the leagues the powers that be mentioned after increasing the spl teams to 12 that they would review the situation in the future as regards adding another 2 teams to the top league this has not been mentioned since, surprise surprise.
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 Re: SPFL at it again
Topic Originator: sammer  
Date:   Tue 7 May 14:24

Post-war, teams such as Stranraer, Berwick Rangers and Brechin used to play in a Division C which was made up of mostly reserve teams from the top two divisions. This Division C was split regionally into a North/East and South/West section, making 29 teams in total, although Celtic seem to have been placed in the North/East set up. Like most clubs the Pars had a reserve team in this league until the structure was abandoned in the mid 1950s. There was no possibility of a reserve team being promoted but since they always seemed to come top, from what I can gather no team ever seems to have been promoted at all! Anyhow, nothing new about reserve teams playing in our national leagues.

What I would be more interested in is the thinking behind this SPFL proposal. At the moment there are 42 clubs in the Scottish national leagues, which is the same as Spain and Italy and more than France, Portugal, Holland or Poland. Given the relative populations involved this seems an astonishingly high number. In addition, almost every European country bar England and Germany has only two national leagues, each comprising on average 18 clubs- which has long been recognised as an optimum number for home and away fixtures over a season. Quite why Scotland recognises 42 clubs split into four small divisions has never been clear to me. On the surface it looks like democracy gone mad.
Some say the small leagues and promotion/relegation play-offs add excitement which is probably true, but this is a slightly artificial form of excitement since the game itself should be what sparks our emotions. For example, our last home game against Morton was the very knife-edge fixture these small leagues inevitably throw up, but by all accounts was about as engrossing as watching two drunks engaged in a pillow fight. In contrast, if I were to list my five favourite games as a Pars spectator I doubt if I could remember where either we or our opponents were in the league at that time.

In its previous incarnation the SPFL made a misjudgement that was highlighted last week by Steven Gerrard as a problem in promoting Scottish football. The requirement, long since diluted, for a club to have 10,000 seater stadia to play in the top division was like many ideas probably influenced by what was developing in England. This has resulted in enormous lego block structures, usually behind the goals, which distort any architectural coherence with the main enclosures and have largely muted what was the traditional terracing atmosphere with its good-natured rowdiness. Increasingly it seems, the empty plastic seats are being draped with club flags or supporters’ banners in a forlorn attempt to conceal the emptiness. Incidentally I noticed recently at major games in England where the stadiums are full, many of the supporters spend most of the game standing up anyway. Giving the customer what he does not want is surely bad for business, and this league proposal might be part of the same.
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 Re: SPFL at it again
Topic Originator: back oh the net  
Date:   Tue 7 May 15:06

😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂 we surely must be the only country in the world where the number of games played increase along with the size of the league why 44 games why not cut the number of times teams play each other to 3 and reduce the number of games or is that to easy for Dung aster and his minions

Come on ye pars ⚽️
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 Re: SPFL at it again
Topic Originator: veteraneastender  
Date:   Tue 7 May 15:57

Spammer - the old Div.2 of the 1950s/60s had an odd number of clubs, seventeen if memory serves, which meant one different team had a free Saturday when the others were playing league fixtures.

I can’t remember exactly when or how that was sorted - perhaps end of 66/67 when Third Lanark went bust ?
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 Re: SPFL at it again
Topic Originator: Craigston_Par  
Date:   Tue 7 May 16:10

Not keen on that like
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 Re: SPFL at it again
Topic Originator: sammer  
Date:   Tue 7 May 16:36

It was generally 18 in the top league and 19 in the second for quite a while, partly due to the shenanigans involving East Stirlingshire being amalgamated into ES Clydebank, then a judge overruling that decision a year later, along with the demise of Third Lanark.

I've always respected what a Brechin City chairman said some years back, when he pointed out that stopping Brechin playing league football was a strange way to develop the Scottish game. However in terms of focus and concentrating the resources of professional football I find it hard to accept Scotland needs 42, or as now suggested 44 clubs, as part of its national league structure.
Given the population we have I'd have thought that two leagues of 16 would be the absolute limit, with perhaps the lower league playing matches on Friday nights or Sundays.

Two fairly useless facts regarding clubs who died: ES Clydebank's first winning goal was scored by Andy Roxburgh, nephew to the Steedman brothers who created the club. And Third Lanark's last competitive goal was scored by Drew Busby.
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 Re: SPFL at it again
Topic Originator: Stanza  
Date:   Tue 7 May 17:02

"..... the old Div.2 of the 1950s/60s had an odd number of clubs, seventeen if memory serves, which meant one different team had a free Saturday when the others were playing league fixtures.

I can’t remember exactly when or how that was sorted - perhaps end of 66/67 when Third Lanark went bust ?"


This came about when the old Division C that sammer refers to was abandoned in 1955, and the 16-club Divisions A and B were reorganised into an 18-club Division 1 and a 19-club Division 2 with the addition of the five Division C senior clubs (Berwick, Brechin, East Stirling, Montrose and Stranraer).

The problem of the "odd" club was briefly solved in 1966 when ES Clydebank split, with the new Clydebank FC becoming the 38th SFL club. However, when Third Lanark folded in 1967 it was back to 19 clubs in Division 2 until 1975, when the structure was changed to Premier, First and Second, with Meadowbank being elected as the 38th club.

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 Re: SPFL at it again
Topic Originator: kingseat par  
Date:   Tue 7 May 17:03

Obviously only being put in place to help Falkirk carry out their two year plan.
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 Re: SPFL at it again
Topic Originator: veteraneastender  
Date:   Tue 7 May 18:47

"However, when Third Lanark folded in 1967 it was back to 19 clubs in Division 2 until 1975, when the structure was changed to Premier, First and Second, with Meadowbank being elected as the 38th club."

I mind that reconstruction well - we were relegated in successive seasons.
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 Re: SPFL at it again
Topic Originator: 1970par  
Date:   Tue 7 May 18:47

So just as an example:- The “The Rangers” go bust again, the Powers that be dish out the same punishment as last time and make them start in the bottom senior league

They would then be playing their colt side four times that season

That’s why it cannot be allowed to happen
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 Re: SPFL at it again
Topic Originator: parsfan  
Date:   Tue 7 May 19:56

Quote:

1970par, Tue 7 May 18:47

So just as an example:- The “The Rangers” go bust again, the Powers that be dish out the same punishment as last time and make them start in the bottom senior league

They would then be playing their colt side four times that season

That’s why it cannot be allowed to happen



That wouldn't happen. I'm sure when The SPFL started they assumed the power (with the clubs' approval) to sort out that type of situation themselves without going back to the clubs.

Some clubs, or their Phoenix versions will be treated differently from others.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The universe is ruled by chance and indifference
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 Re: SPFL at it again
Topic Originator: kelty_par  
Date:   Tue 7 May 20:10

"Oh and before you ask; The OF get 23% in total"

Sorry, I'm one to stick the boot into the Gruesome Twosome when its deserved (even when it isn't sometimes) but that isn't true. The top two get 23% - this will be first time since the SPFL was formed that the two big Glasgow clubs will finish 1st and 2nd. Last year (and the year before that) it was Celtic and Aberdeen than got 23% between them. The other clubs could have pushed for a more equitable split of prize money but this was seen as a better deal than the previous SPL deal which didn't give any money to the SFL and gave a higher percentage to the top two (who were almost always the Old Firm before Rangers died).

"What I would be more interested in is the thinking behind this SPFL proposal. At the moment there are 42 clubs in the Scottish national leagues, which is the same as Spain and Italy and more than France, Portugal, Holland or Poland."

So what? Are any of the lower league clubs at National level causing any issues? Have any of them went bust? Why not bring up Germany which has 56 at national level in a much bigger country than us then another 20 in each of the four regions which are of a similar size geographically to Scotland, or England who have 92 in a much larger area (and then another 24 in the National League below at tier 5). Even the nations you mention have regions which are bigger than Scotland below their national levels, it's not as if they go from pro leagues to park football or something. Most fans, players and chairmen of lower league sides don't want to be playing regional football.
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 Re: SPFL at it again
Topic Originator: 1970par  
Date:   Tue 7 May 20:58

So what would happen then if my scenario came true (just for argument sake) would the colt team be binned to allow The The The Rangers entry into the league?

Alternatively the only other solution would be to promote the colts team to the next higher league which would then allow the first team to assume that position making a mockery of the whole situation (perhaps that is the master plan)
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 Re: SPFL at it again
Topic Originator: 1970par  
Date:   Tue 7 May 21:02

This has been mooted for years, every time it comes around eventually it is viewed with enough suspicion that it gets rejected, does not stop Celtic and now the The Rangers trying to force it through

They have enough power in Scottish football without having the luxury of two teams competing in the league.
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 Re: SPFL at it again
Topic Originator: parsfan  
Date:   Tue 7 May 21:12

Quote:

1970par, Tue 7 May 20:58

So what would happen then if my scenario came true (just for argument sake) would the colt team be binned to allow The The The Rangers entry into the league?


I think colt team would cease to exist along with the grown-up team, then both would be replaced by their new versions where the old ones left off. The powers-that-be and most of the media would carry on as though nothing had happened.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The universe is ruled by chance and indifference
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 Re: SPFL at it again
Topic Originator: sammer  
Date:   Tue 7 May 23:04

'Even the nations you mention have regions which are bigger than Scotland below their national levels, it's not as if they go from pro leagues to park football or something. Most fans, players and chairmen of lower league sides don't want to be playing regional football.'

I'm sure they don't want that; but you've already acknowledged that countries bigger than Scotland have decided to have only two national leagues. Germany, a country of around 80 million manages to get by on three and has the highest attendances in Europe. I am not aware of anyone following the Scottish model. I appreciate you might well like to see Kelty Hearts become a senior team but is there any point at which we might have too many senior clubs in a country which struggles to provide full time professional football for more than around 16 clubs?
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 Re: SPFL at it again
Topic Originator: kelty_par  
Date:   Wed 8 May 06:04

It's worth noting that Germany didn't even have a national league until 1963, by which time Scotland had a well established league system stretching back 75 years, and that despite the top league being very well supported, tiers 3 (which is national) and 4 (which is regional, albeit with regions that are bigger than Scotland) don't get big crowds (the top flight average last season was over 40,000 but the second divisions was 17,500, the third tier had an average of 6,000 and the regional 4th tier average was only 1,600). England, which used to have a regional 3rd and 4th tier moved to a national system at those levels and below the National League they now have a North and South system when they used to have smaller geographical areas. In Scotland, I've said that the Scottish clubs are happy with the current national model but you've claimed that they aren't. If they aren't happy, why have there been no calls for rationalisation by those clubs who would be affected whereas chairmen and supporters of other (dare we say bigger) clubs have an arrogant attitude of "they just want a regional system".

By the way, Kelty Hearts are a senior club, albeit one at non-league level as they moved away from the Junior Leagues in recent years. And as for your last point, why do clubs have to be full time? Alloa and Dumbarton before them have shown that part time footballers are more than capable of competing and doing better than full time footballers. There is nothing wrong with lower league football in Scotland, indeed I contend that the lower leagues are actually thriving with many solid clubs being well run within their means, providing community access to the National League system, an entry point for young footballers learning their trade, benefits to the wider community and maintaining interest which a local league with no prestige would destroy. If you want to fix Scottish football, it's the top league(s) you have to look at, not the likes of Montrose, Arbroath, Edinburgh City or even Kelty Hearts.
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