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 3 pts for a win - has it made a difference?
Topic Originator: GG Riva  
Date:   Wed 15 May 08:27

When 3 pts for a win was introduced in England in 1981, it was hailed as a great initiative that would change the mindset of defensive coaches and encourage attacking football. It was soon adopted all over the world. Has it really made any significant difference?

I don't know if there are any stats on this but a cursory glance at some final league tables suggests that it hasn't. In most cases, the same team would win the league and the same teams would be relegated if we'd stuck with 2 pts for a win. There are exceptions, of course, but they are rare. This season, Liverpool would have pipped Man City to the EPL title by a point.

Has 3 pts for a win brought about the desired switch to more attacking, high scoring, entertaining games? Can't say I've noticed. Now I'm not advocating that we go back to 2 pts for a win - that would be silly. Besides, it can't be denied that 3 pts for a win is a psychological incentive for teams to go out to win.

My main objection to 3 pts for a win is that it has made no appreciable difference to the entertainment value and a point is "lost" when a game is drawn. To address this and to encourage teams to adopt a more positive approach, which the present set up has failed to deliver, I would like to see the team which opens the scoring being awarded a bonus point ONLY if the game finishes as a SCORING DRAW. Games finishing 0-0 would only receive 1 pt each, as at present.

Teams would know that if they can get the first goal in a game, they'd be guaranteed at least 2 pts if they concede an equaliser, hopefully making them less likely to sit in and play for a 0-0.



Not your average Sunday League player.
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 Re: 3 pts for a win - has it made a difference?
Topic Originator: par-91  
Date:   Wed 15 May 08:59

Nah, I don’t think that would be fair at all. It’s not that uncommon for a team to dominate a game and get hit by a sucker punch, to concede the first goal.

For example, would it really encourage attacking play, if a team were playing attractive attacking football against a team that sat in, then got caught on the counter to go 1 down. The opponents spend the rest of the game sitting in and soaking up the pressure and the team that have been attacking all game eventually get an equaliser. Finishes 1-1 and the team that’s parked the bus for 90 mins gets more points?
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 Re: 3 pts for a win - has it made a difference?
Topic Originator: elvis_lives  
Date:   Wed 15 May 10:53

Never mind this English nonsense, let's bring it closer to home.

Was it not the case in Bert's first season before the Scottish transition took place we would have won the league if it was 3 for a win.

In his second second season which was the first 3 point season we would have won it if it was 2 for a win?


Or was that a load of rubbish?
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 Re: 3 pts for a win - has it made a difference?
Topic Originator: londonparsfan  
Date:   Wed 15 May 11:33

I'd genuinely forgotten that. You are correct elvis.
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 Re: 3 pts for a win - has it made a difference?
Topic Originator: sonofpetrie  
Date:   Wed 15 May 12:40

GG, with your encyclopedic knowledge of the game i'm wondering if you've forgotten some of the turgid stuff churned out in that era when all that was needed was a draw. The one that really hit it home to me was when I was channel hoping a few years back and stumbled across an old Liverpool game. I forget the opposition but Liverpool just needed to not lose the game. They had no interest in winning that day and add to that the fact that the passback rule was years away it was revolting football. Genuinely boring.

Now let's say it was team X they were playing (for instance) When the league table was flashed up at the end of the programme it was evident that they too would benefit from a draw and their nearest competitors couldn't catch them even with a win. What then unfolded was essentially a gentleman's agreement of a game where no-one pushed too hard.

3 points win, 1 point draw all the way for me.

"The only place success comes before work is in the dictionary"

Post Edited (Wed 15 May 12:52)
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 Re: 3 pts for a win - has it made a difference?
Topic Originator: kelty_par  
Date:   Wed 15 May 13:25

It was Jimmy Hill that first proposed three points for a win as a result of the number of goals per game dropping dramatically. After the advent of the 3 points for a win system the number of goals went up quite markedly. It also meant that teams were more willing to "go for it" in the final 5-10 minutes as the reward (and extra two points) was bigger than the possible risk (a loss of one point). In general, it has been shown to encourage more attacking although the development of the "super team" who swat aside all they face (,outwith the top two or three contenders in their league) may cause rue need for a rethink.
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 Re: 3 pts for a win - has it made a difference?
Topic Originator: PARrot  
Date:   Wed 15 May 13:43

How about.
Home draw 1pt
Away draw 2pts
Home win 3 pts
Away win 4 pts.

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 Re: 3 pts for a win - has it made a difference?
Topic Originator: dave67  
Date:   Wed 15 May 13:54

Point a goal

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 Re: 3 pts for a win - has it made a difference?
Topic Originator: OzPar  
Date:   Wed 15 May 15:24

PARrot's idea has got legs. If the idea was given wings I'm sure it would fly.

Yup, that has a lot of appeal to me. A four-point turnaround for an away win could really impact league standings week to week. It would breed uncertainty and that adds excitement.

Mind you, without sitting down and doing the sums, I have a suspicion that the Pars would have finished in a more perilous position this season given how often we lost at home to relegation rivals.
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 Re: 3 pts for a win - has it made a difference?
Topic Originator: GG Riva  
Date:   Wed 15 May 15:26

Quote:

par-91, Wed 15 May 08:59

Nah, I don’t think that would be fair at all. It’s not that uncommon for a team to dominate a game and get hit by a sucker punch, to concede the first goal.

For example, would it really encourage attacking play, if a team were playing attractive attacking football against a team that sat in, then got caught on the counter to go 1 down. The opponents spend the rest of the game sitting in and soaking up the pressure and the team that have been attacking all game eventually get an equaliser. Finishes 1-1 and the team that’s parked the bus for 90 mins gets more points?


That's a very extreme example you've gone for there, par-91. It could happen, of course, but do you really think giving teams the chance of an extra point for scoring first, would make them more defensive?



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 Re: 3 pts for a win - has it made a difference?
Topic Originator: GG Riva  
Date:   Wed 15 May 15:33

Quote:

sonofpetrie, Wed 15 May 12:40

GG, with your encyclopedic knowledge of the game i'm wondering if you've forgotten some of the turgid stuff churned out in that era when all that was needed was a draw.


Thanks for the compliment,Petrie, but I think that's an elegant way of saying I'm a bit of an anorak. ☺

If you read the OP again, you'll see I'm not advocating a return to 2 pts for a win. 3 pts is here to stay and if it improves a team's mindset or approach to a game, it has to be a good thing. I'm just looking at ways to improve that further and I feel my bonus point idea has some value. It would be good to see it trialled in a lower league somewhere.



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 Re: 3 pts for a win - has it made a difference?
Topic Originator: veteraneastender  
Date:   Wed 15 May 16:02

Parrot’s idea would have meant Celtic having won the title by early New Year in recent years - maybe’s yes, maybe’s naw ?

In the old system some title races went right down to the wire up here.

Like the Saturday in late April 1968 when an idle Celtic effectively won the flag because Rangers lost their only league game on the final day.

Or when Kilmarnock nicked the title off Hearts at the last gasp in 1965.



Post Edited (Wed 15 May 16:04)
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 Re: 3 pts for a win - has it made a difference?
Topic Originator: doctordandruff  
Date:   Wed 15 May 16:11

Its destroyed any hope of overturning the Old Firm in Scotland. 24 points in games against them in a season has derailed plenty teams.
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 Re: 3 pts for a win - has it made a difference?
Topic Originator: neils  
Date:   Wed 15 May 17:01

Certainly initially it negated teams setting out for the season to play for the draw -so that combined crucially with the passback rule completely changed the dynamics (it transformed Serie A overnight) other leagues Tunisia, Morocco etc.

However, the disparities nowadays between the haves/have nots in pretty much every league have seen defensive minded teams in some cases coming back-often they have no choice (Huddersfield,Brighton, Torino for example)

So I think the dynamics change a bit, recently in many leagues wide reaching play offs have changed it again (it has made Serie B more interesting)
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 Re: 3 pts for a win - has it made a difference?
Topic Originator: sammer  
Date:   Wed 15 May 17:45

Jimmy Hill was never short of ideas and 3 points for a win has stood the test of time. I’m not sure it has changed football very much though; a few years back Leicester ground out a series of 1-0 wins to win the EPL in much the same way that Arsenal had previously done under George Graham. I think GG’s suggestion of bonus points would make this approach more likely.

Awarding a point for every goal scored seems such an obvious idea you wonder why it was not introduced from the outset. There are a number of reasons why. Firstly, it would mean a 6-0 hammering of Raith Rovers was worth much more than a heroic 2-1 win at Parkhead which is completely at odds with how any sensible supporter would view these results. Secondly, football is not just about scoring goals; I saw DAFC in 1965-66 when we scored 96 league goals and it was the most exciting Pars team I have ever seen. The year before we scored ‘only’ 83 goals, but most of us old enough to remember would agree that the team of 64-65 was a better football team all round, and that was indeed reflected in the amount of points won. Finally, a system of one point per goal would swiftly lead to allegations of match-rigging and betting coups unparalleled in the Scottish game.

Another Jimmy Hill idea was preventing pass backs to the goalkeeper. For me the jury is out on this change. No longer can teams pass the ball around their back four and then back into the safety of their goalkeeper’s hands: good. But goalkeepers have become much more proficient with their feet, so it is quite common to see Man City have at least three attempts to play the ball out of defence using their goalkeeper as a safety net in the very same way as teams like Liverpool did in the past. Not exactly end-to-end football. Plus ca change, I think.
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 Re: 3 pts for a win - has it made a difference?
Topic Originator: PARrot  
Date:   Wed 15 May 17:54

The ridiculous advantage CelGers have in the league is not because of 3 points a win.
It is to do with playing them 4 times a season

In the past we played home and away. It only took a couple of defeats or draws to give a challenging provincial side a chance of the title.

Nowadays they are virtually starting with a 12 pt start on everyone. Even if they lose a few games there is still a lot to claw back.



Post Edited (Wed 15 May 17:56)
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 Re: 3 pts for a win - has it made a difference?
Topic Originator: Raymie the Legend  
Date:   Wed 15 May 19:11

My only change would be no points for a 0-0 draw. You would only get a point for a scoring draw




It's bloody tough being a legend
Ron Atkinson - 1983
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 Re: 3 pts for a win - has it made a difference?
Topic Originator: GG Riva  
Date:   Wed 15 May 19:42

Quote:

Raymie the Legend, Wed 15 May 19:11

My only change would be no points for a 0-0 draw. You would only get a point for a scoring draw


They tried that in Bulgaria in the early 90s, I think. It was abandoned after one season. The reason? A number of games, seemingly destined to finish goalless, suddenly sprang into life in the last 5-10 mins, with a goal for each side.......



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 Re: 3 pts for a win - has it made a difference?
Topic Originator: parsmad68  
Date:   Wed 15 May 19:59

Jaikits doon! Last goals the winner. That always brought teenage games to be competitive!
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 Re: 3 pts for a win - has it made a difference?
Topic Originator: Raymie the Legend  
Date:   Wed 15 May 20:01

Quote:

GG Riva, Wed 15 May 19:42

Quote:

Raymie the Legend, Wed 15 May 19:11

My only change would be no points for a 0-0 draw. You would only get a point for a scoring draw


They tried that in Bulgaria in the early 90s, I think. It was abandoned after one season. The reason? A number of games, seemingly destined to finish goalless, suddenly sprang into life in the last 5-10 mins, with a goal for each side.......


Is that because they knew it was pointless unless they could score as opposed to the cynical interpretation?




It's bloody tough being a legend
Ron Atkinson - 1983
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 Re: 3 pts for a win - has it made a difference?
Topic Originator: GG Riva  
Date:   Thu 16 May 07:38

Quote:

Raymie the Legend, Wed 15 May 20:01

Quote:

GG Riva, Wed 15 May 19:42

Quote:

Raymie the Legend, Wed 15 May 19:11

My only change would be no points for a 0-0 draw. You would only get a point for a scoring draw


They tried that in Bulgaria in the early 90s, I think. It was abandoned after one season. The reason? A number of games, seemingly destined to finish goalless, suddenly sprang into life in the last 5-10 mins, with a goal for each side.......


Is that because they knew it was pointless unless they could score as opposed to the cynical interpretation?


"Pointless" only started in 2009, Raymie, so that just leaves the cynical interpretation, me thinks.



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 Re: 3 pts for a win - has it made a difference?
Topic Originator: PARrot  
Date:   Thu 16 May 15:11

After thinking intensely about it. Barely being able to sleep in fact, I'm thinking maybe we should give 10 for an away win, 7 for a home win, 5 for an away draw and 3 for a home draw.
1 point or a certificate for participating so nobody leaves with nothing, gets upset and doesn't want to play again (is that not what the schools were implimenting for a while?)
Bonus points for coming from behind and winning, scoring X amount of goals, keeping a clean sheet and getting no bookings.

I would also have a 10 min sin bin for bookings.



Post Edited (Thu 16 May 15:11)
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 Re: 3 pts for a win - has it made a difference?
Topic Originator: neils  
Date:   Thu 16 May 16:04

For me, the beauty of football is it's simplicity, for example if a Martian landed and watched a game they would pick up the rules pretty much straight away.

So if I look at a table, I like to see what the score is, and what it means (I can't be bothered with rugby for example)

There are sports that the only attraction is constant action and scoring-basketball for example-I can't watch that.
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 Re: 3 pts for a win - has it made a difference?
Topic Originator: PARrot  
Date:   Thu 16 May 16:37

Quote:

neils, Thu 16 May 16:04

For me, the beauty of football is it's simplicity, for example if a Martian landed and watched a game they would pick up the rules pretty much straight away.

So if I look at a table, I like to see what the score is, and what it means (I can't be bothered with rugby for example)

There are sports that the only attraction is constant action and scoring-basketball for example-I can't watch that.


So what you are really saying is rugby is for clever folk and football is for simpletons and spacemen.

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