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 Penalties
Topic Originator: FRED1981  
Date:   Sun 4 Aug 15:22

Watching the Aberdeen game hits the Hearts defender on the arm more blatant than Friday result no penalty,this referee mustn't have read the new rules.
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 Re: Penalties
Topic Originator: jake89  
Date:   Sun 4 Aug 15:31

Unless we use VAR and stick to the proper rules then we'll always have inconsistencies in refereeing. People joke about getting their eyes tested but there's only so much they can see.
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 Re: Penalties
Topic Originator: 1970par  
Date:   Sun 4 Aug 18:37

The ref on Friday had brilliant eyesight, he was able to see what nobody else could
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 Re: Penalties
Topic Originator: FRED1981  
Date:   Sun 4 Aug 21:52

I just watched highlights of Ross county Hamilton 2 stonewall pens we must have been unlucky getting that clown of a ref.
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 Re: Penalties
Topic Originator: wee eck  
Date:   Sun 4 Aug 22:16

I've just watched a re-run of Friday night's game on the BBC iPlayer. You could argue all night about the first penalty but there is no way Ashcroft fouled the Dundee player in the second incident.
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 Re: Penalties
Topic Originator: wulliepar57  
Date:   Sun 4 Aug 22:28

After friday night like others i have paid particular attention to other games this weekend and my conclusion as wee eck says you can argue about the first one but there is no way the second one should have been given it was actually a good tackle from Ashcroft and looking at the highlights Looks like the ref was blowing before the Dundee player even hit the ground so we were very unlucky to have that pr**k on friday night
anyway back to other games I have seen similar incidents to Friday night and also some where i thought were clear cut penalties so its the same old from referee's they make the rules up as they go along
hopefully during the season we will get the rub of the green

cmon ye pars , I am absolutely delighted at the effort and good football being played just now , keep it up and who knows where we can end up in the league
not expecting miracles but quietly confident if we get this kind of effort every week
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 Re: Penalties
Topic Originator: parathletic  
Date:   Sun 4 Aug 22:35

If I'm being honest I can see why the ref gave it.If you slow it right down Ashcroft does appear to go through the Dundee players calf although not sure how the ref clocked that in real time .I think he gets to the ball fractionally before that but that doesn't make it not a foul.

Delighted with the overall performance and work ethic-chalk and cheese from the games I was at last season.Lots of the new signings impressed and still got the likes of Turner,Thomson and McGill to come in.
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 Re: Penalties
Topic Originator: Indiapar  
Date:   Sun 4 Aug 22:47

The game is gone and the result wont change. A couple of lessons learned no doubt. The team is work in progress. The younger squad are going to improve more over the season than teams with older experienced players. Dundee was a good test. We came through it very well I thought. A game we should have won but these things happen. You have to move on and work hard enough to create our own luck next time. A wake up call for Dundee no doubt and the realisation promotiin will have to be hard fought. As they day cometh the hour cometh the man. The young players have come of age.
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 Re: Penalties
Topic Originator: Sliema Par  
Date:   Mon 5 Aug 06:52

However daft the new UEFA regulations are ,and both Michael Stewart on "Sportsound" on Saturday afternoon and Steven Thomson on "Sportscene Results " have dismantled them forensically: all we can ask for is consistency.

Highlights of Ross County v Hamilton Accies do not give me any confidence.
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 Re: Penalties
Topic Originator: The Toun Clock  
Date:   Mon 5 Aug 08:03

From where I was standing in the singing section of the NW the first one looked a penalty. I've not read the new rules but if that happens up our end then I'm roaring for a penalty. Second one wasn't in a million years, if they can't be sure then they shouldn't be giving it. Refs would look less stupid if they didn't give some penalties that were rather than giving some penalties that weren't. They have to be sure.
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 Re: Penalties
Topic Originator: Playup_Pompey  
Date:   Mon 5 Aug 09:57

So many referees on here. £30 for an 8 week course starts in September you even get your whistle and book.

Even if you don't intend of doing any/many games it will increase your appreciation of watching games.

One thing to keep in mind you get 1 chance at full speed to make a decision whilst watching who touched the ball last, it it throw-in/corner/did player A or B leave foot in afterwards, are any of the other 20 players niggling/shirt pulling etc.

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 Re: Penalties
Topic Originator: wee eck  
Date:   Mon 5 Aug 10:25

I don't think anyone is disputing that refereeing is not an easy job or that the referee's knowledge of the Laws of the Game is far superior to that of the average fan, especially in recent years when so many changes have been made and different interpretations issued. The fact remains though that they make mistakes, often in relation to decisions which affect the outcome of matches. That was apparent during the Women's WC where VAR often led to a change of mind by the referee - and the pace of the women's game is much slower than that of the men's.

I think what frustrates most fans is that the referees appear to be unaccountable. We'll never know the basis of Mr Aitken's decisions on Friday, whether he later had doubts about them or the view of an assessor, if one was present. After Bobby Madden sent off Ashcroft in the first leg of the promotion play-off in 2018 the red card was rescinded on appeal. That decision could have affected the outcome of the whole tie but Bobby Madden's reputation doesn't seem to have been affected at all and he's still put in charge of big games. I think there was another incident that season where he awarded a match-winning, last-minute penalty in a cup-tie and sent the offender off, another red card that was rescinded on appeal.
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 Re: Penalties
Topic Originator: ParsPryde  
Date:   Mon 5 Aug 10:41

The annoying this is that we had TWO questionable decisions which basically gifted Dundee a goal. (I tend to think that penalties WILL be scored.. unless taken by us :D ). This has cost us 2 points.

We have a new, young and inexperienced squad.
They WILL make stupid mistakes, they WILL lose silly goals, they WILL crumble under pressure and points WILL be dropped. We saw this when we had a blip against Edinburgh City

What we must hope for is that these incidents are few and far between and they can actually maintain the standards they have already shown so far. (Would be great if they can but got to make allowances too)

What we need from officials is that they do not make our player's job harder by making numerous dubious decisions which directly impact the result as happened on Friday.

Still don't think the officials fully understand the new rules being implemented and that is going to result is very inconsistent rulings on the pitch.... with major frustration for players, staff and fans.

WELCOME TO THE NEW SEASON!!!
Nails, Nerves and sanity (if you have any) are deemed to be at risk!!

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 Re: Penalties
Topic Originator: Playup_Pompey  
Date:   Mon 5 Aug 10:57

thing is wee eck the second you refer to VAR you will get a letter of the law outcome and remove all ambiguity when the intention is actually "clear and obvious"

The offside one for me is pretty key when it comes to "clear and obvious" how "clear and obvious" is 3 inches at 70 yards distance from player to assistant ref with another X amount of players in eyeline. Goal goes in, VAR review then applies letter of the law goal or no goal and completely wipes away the clear and obvious as applies letter of the law.

Scenario in my mind... Celtic park in next round of the cup, Comrie hits a diagonal ball from RB to coley in left channel. assistant in in line with celtic LB. Assistant official has 4 defenders, 2 strikers and coley who is moving back from last attack still high up on our left wing in eyeline. After burners go on, coley races to byline, cuts back to Nesbit who smashes in from edge of goal area. VAR review shows coleys right boot was 3 inches off.

Near side official isnt going to pick that up as "clear and obvious" but VAR review replay and goal chalked off and FK given.

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 Re: Penalties
Topic Originator: jake89  
Date:   Mon 5 Aug 11:06

Little point debating it as it can't be changed retrospectively. I'll guarantee these decisions will have been noted.

Key thing for us is Dundee didn't get past our defence.
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 Re: Penalties
Topic Originator: wee eck  
Date:   Mon 5 Aug 11:27

Fair enough, PuP, but the two controversial decisions on Friday had nothing to do with offside and the ref was probably 10-15 yards away in each case.
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 Re: Penalties
Topic Originator: Playup_Pompey  
Date:   Mon 5 Aug 12:26

was just an example of why/how VAR will overturn an officials decision that shows the offical was "wrong"

Friday night as said before the 1st one the ball flies over and player has time to see/judge and play accordingly. Not hit/or controlled from a point blank distance. If his arms are firmly by his side then no real issue, he motions his arms up/up which can be seen to be an act of making body bigger as per the new wording.

The second one he sees striker go in on goal and defenders come at him from either side, a tangle of legs, striker in a heap. Not saying he guessed or justifying his decision but as said before he gets 1 look from 1 angle at real time to make a decision .

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 Re: Penalties
Topic Originator: MDCCCLXXXV  
Date:   Mon 5 Aug 12:28

The ref was garbage of Friday , he made wrong decisions against both sides all night, it so happens the big 2 cost us the match. If he hadn't given the penalties we would have won the game and Dundee fans would have went up the road having the same conversation we are having on here.

East End Park is a symbol of all that is DAFC.
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 Re: Penalties
Topic Originator: LochgellyAlbert  
Date:   Mon 5 Aug 13:20

The ref isn't one of the most popular within the playing fraternity!
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 Re: Penalties
Topic Originator: Blackandwhiteblood  
Date:   Mon 5 Aug 13:30

Quote:

Playup_Pompey, Mon 5 Aug 12:26

was just an example of why/how VAR will overturn an officials decision that shows the offical was "wrong"

Friday night as said before the 1st one the ball flies over and player has time to see/judge and play accordingly. Not hit/or controlled from a point blank distance. If his arms are firmly by his side then no real issue, he motions his arms up/up which can be seen to be an act of making body bigger as per the new wording.

The second one he sees striker go in on goal and defenders come at him from either side, a tangle of legs, striker in a heap. Not saying he guessed or justifying his decision but as said before he gets 1 look from 1 angle at real time to make a decision .


Where were Dows hand. Side of his body, not unnatural position.
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 Re: Penalties
Topic Originator: ParsPryde  
Date:   Mon 5 Aug 14:09

Much discussion about both our penalties in media and presumably by referee organisation/SFA. Problem is that any actions taken to correct errors will not benefit the team that has been impacted.

Number of times we have seen a red card being issued or rescinded post match but the impact of that erroneous decision on the actual match remains unchanged. Result stands.

Need to find a way to correct during match time. Might be VAR, although I have my doubts. Think Jury is still out based on how it worked during Women's World Cup (Teething Issues?)

Time will tell no doubt.

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 Re: Penalties
Topic Originator: MDCCCLXXXV  
Date:   Mon 5 Aug 14:23

There is 1 thing for sure the next time a ref gets it right .....it will be against us

East End Park is a symbol of all that is DAFC.
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 Re: Penalties
Topic Originator: Mr P  
Date:   Mon 5 Aug 15:05

There was always a bit of a grey area where penalties were concerned and they have now change the ruling to make it easier to interpret a yes or no.

However what the powers that be didn't take in to consideration was the inconsistency of referees, especially here in Scotland.

I am all for making it simple and if that is the new rule on the first penalty then so be it take it on the chin and move on. But, inconsistent interpretation in the second half as watching the game twice after recording it, what about the two instances in the Dundee box that were not too dissimilar that were not given.

Even watching the other games over the weekend in the highlights it just proves that we are going to have some season of controversy over this as some of the refs don't know what to do in this situation. It will also be an eye opener if the first OF game has this issue too as the reaction could be huge.

Looking at the second penalty I can see how this may be given if the ref didn't have a clear view, he did, which makes this more astonishing.

On a positive note, let's hope that the luck is in our favour the next time as these things tend to balance out over a season. Also it will be interesting to see what happens in the next game he GA is involved with us.

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 Re: Penalties
Topic Originator: Playup_Pompey  
Date:   Tue 6 Aug 11:26

"Where were Dows hand. Side of his body, not unnatural position."


clearly by his side


has moved his arms out and thus making his body un-naturally bigger than the initial silhouette where yes they were by his side





Post Edited (Tue 06 Aug 11:27)
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 Re: Penalties
Topic Originator: wee eck  
Date:   Tue 6 Aug 11:49

Human beings move their arms to maintain balance when they move their feet. Keeping your arms tight by your side when moving would be unnatural. The whole thing's a nonsense.
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 Re: Penalties
Topic Originator: GJS93  
Date:   Tue 6 Aug 12:00

does it even hit his arm though regardless of the position of it? at the game I didn't think so and watching it a few times im not convinced. in saying that he had enough time to get in a better position so it wouldn't have given the referee any decision to make.
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 Re: Penalties
Topic Originator: Playup_Pompey  
Date:   Tue 6 Aug 12:12

"does it even hit his arm though regardless of the position of it? at the game I didn't think so and watching it a few times im not convinced. in saying that he had enough time to get in a better position so it wouldn't have given the referee any decision to make."

the boy in the light blue 4-5 yards away is in an ideal position to make a judgement ;)

agree on changing body shape etc. Biggest issue was we let the ball bounce in our own box. Similar to Ashcrofts red at raith last season.

wee eck cant say my arms fly backwards/out to the side whilst i run forwards and i do a lot of running. Very different when spinning body etc the momentum will cause arms to move away from core

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 Re: Penalties
Topic Originator: wee eck  
Date:   Tue 6 Aug 12:25

When you go running I can't imagine you're trying to control a football at the same time. How many footballers run around the park with their arms tight by their sides?
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 Re: Penalties
Topic Originator: Frank Butchers LoveHandles  
Date:   Tue 6 Aug 18:24

First is marginal but under the new rules I can see why that was giving. Second was an absolute joke of a decision and undoubtedly cost us the game.

Awight Pat!
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 Re: Penalties
Topic Originator: DRreturns  
Date:   Wed 7 Aug 00:47

There was an article on bbc sport specifically talking about the 2 decisions in our game. In summary they said both were penalties. Ryan Dow supposedly made his body bigger and that Ashcroft’s challenge was reckless. It also stated that if a tackle is reckless and even if the ball is won the foul can still be given!!

I’m here to take over!!
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 Re: Penalties
Topic Originator: Lambo1885  
Date:   Wed 7 Aug 08:32

If Ashcrofts tackle was reckless, then they're going to have to ban all tackling. Thought his tackle was perfectly timed winning the ball cleanly.
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 Re: Penalties
Topic Originator: wee eck  
Date:   Wed 7 Aug 09:11

If it was 'reckless' should it not have been a yellow or red card? It's all very confusing.
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 Re: Penalties
Topic Originator: Playup_Pompey  
Date:   Wed 7 Aug 09:50

careless- Free kick
reckless- Yellow card
Excessive Force/endangering opponents safety- Red Card

http://static-3eb8.kxcdn.com/files/document-category/062019/frRhKJNjSBAtiyt.pdf

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 Re: Penalties
Topic Originator: wee eck  
Date:   Wed 7 Aug 09:59

Presumably Mr Aitken thought it was careless then.
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 Re: Penalties
Topic Originator: Lambo1885  
Date:   Wed 7 Aug 10:19

Careless, is that not just a standard poor tackle? which this one wasn't.
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