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 Question for those who are refs or know ref training..
Topic Originator: ParsPryde  
Date:   Mon 5 Aug 11:29

I might be becoming a "grumpy old lady" (don't all rush to agree now!) but it seems to me that the quality of referees has dropped severely in recent years.
I foresee another season bemoaning the "unfair" decisions against us :(

I can remember when I was a young whipper-snapper that we had mostly good/decent referees and a few dodgy ones that you hoped never got assigned to our match. (Loved Collina. He was great)

So my question(s) to those in the "Referee know" is:

has the method of training changed recently (resulting in poorer refs)

Do the candidates in training have examples shown of incidents, which are borderline, to help them with their interpretation of applying rules correctly and/or using their discretion. (meaning that ALL candidates will have very similar interpretation and thus give consistent rulings....which would be nice)

Are we struggling to get people wanting to be a referee? Thereby lack of number means that refs are being thrown in at higher level and not having time to learn their trade at junior/lower league games. (Green Refs making BIG decisions at BIG games and they can be swayed into rash, knee jerk decisions?)

I appreciate it is a hard job and that they will NEVER get every decision correct to the fans liking... but I need to understand why I watch games (and not just the Pars) and can't understand why tackle "A" is a foul but tackle "B" is not, when they look the same type of tackle to me.

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 Re: Question for those who are refs or know ref training..
Topic Originator: Grant  
Date:   Mon 5 Aug 11:34

Don't agree at all tbh, the standard of refs is much the same if not better, Collina wasn't perfect by any stretch.

Whats different is the level of scrutiny, amount of cameras and the amount of decisions that can be re watched again and again. Would that referee from Friday be getting as much stick if the game wasn't on national TV and you had fans immediately able to watch it on slow time, from multiple angles. Anyone can be an expert in those instances.

Anyone remember Brian Winter in an Inverness game from 2006ish? Howling.
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 Re: Question for those who are refs or know ref training..
Topic Originator: ParsPryde  
Date:   Mon 5 Aug 11:37

Possibly.
Then the method of ruling has not been improved to match the speed of technology, highlighting errors more vividly.

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 Re: Question for those who are refs or know ref training..
Topic Originator: Playup_Pompey  
Date:   Mon 5 Aug 12:19

Things are 2 fold to Grants points above. More TV coverage/angles/super slow motion reviews of incidents and "experts" on TV giving "in my opinion" "analysis" on MOTD and the like speaking in cliches rather than referencing the actual Laws of the game.

There is a pathway from grass-roots to Highest level and to move up each step you must have certyain number of matches assessed and be presented to the "promotions panel"

In the classes you are shown and spend a lot of time the UEFA videos of scenarios and what outcomes should be.

Also 6 "local" meetings per year where SFA videos are shown with an SFA representative ion attendance to ask questions etc. These are attended by all catagories of officials.

There are also quarterly development days where existing Cat1 officals run workshops aimed at different levels with the more advanced levels being different and more specific to higher levels but the lower level days more structured towards dealing with match scenarios when you are a single official.

http://www.fifereferees.co.uk/





Post Edited (Mon 05 Aug 15:15)
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 Re: Question for those who are refs or know ref training..
Topic Originator: Stanza  
Date:   Mon 5 Aug 12:35

I'm sure Grant is right. Social media allows fans to share their feelings in a way that was never possible before. Decision-making by human referees has always been fallible and always will be. In sports where technology is available to check (eg tennis, cricket, rugby) there are countless occasions where the human eye gets it wrong.
Football allows some form of physical contact but not others, so that makes decisions harder in fast-moving situations - and players are more savvy about falling down if they feel a contact.
Handball is more complex than it used to be, with the interpretation of the law being finessed - but it was always the subjective judgment of the referee about whether handball was intentional. We remember with righteous indignation the bad decisions against us (Bobo Balde) but with mild amusement the bad decisions in our favour (Jimmy Sandison).
I would think the training of referees is much better than it used to be, but errors will never be eliminated.

(Edited to say that PUP's post makes clear how much effort is put into trying to get consistency of decision-making, and I'm sure it's much more than in the past.)

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Post Edited (Mon 05 Aug 12:44)
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 Re: Question for those who are refs or know ref training..
Topic Originator: veteraneastender  
Date:   Mon 5 Aug 13:10

I did the SFA referee course back in the Middle Ages - they met every month and there was always a Q&A session on incidents which had occurred in recent games.

One of the SFA's most regressive decisions since then was to enforce retirement of officials handling senior matches at 50 - it should have been based on an annual fitness test, rather than an arbitary age.

I also used to referee competitive volleyball - captains (nobody else) were allowed to approach officials to explain (not argue) decisions.

I wish they would adopt this in football and penalise players other than the captain who badger referees and challenge a decision.
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 Re: Question for those who are refs or know ref training..
Topic Originator: wee eck  
Date:   Mon 5 Aug 13:33

The lack of accountability of referees for their decisions is just another example of the contempt the people running football have for the people who support it. All the other major spectator sports in the world are streets ahead of football in using technology to challenge decisions or at least explain them to customers. When you also consider the way they rearrange fixtures with no consideration for travelling fans it's quite clear they play on the loyalty of fans whilst making no concessions towards them. I sometimes wonder if it's worth the hassle.
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 Re: Question for those who are refs or know ref training..
Topic Originator: ParsPryde  
Date:   Mon 5 Aug 14:01

Thank all for your responses and clearing up my lack of knowledge of the workings of becoming a referee.

It appears refs today are NOT as bad as I thought and the ones in the past weren't all brilliant.

So does this mean that I AM turning into a grumpy old lady and probably should get my eye tested too ... No need to answer that question though folks :D

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 Re: Question for those who are refs or know ref training..
Topic Originator: ParsMad98  
Date:   Mon 5 Aug 15:07

I’m a qualified referee and I’ll be the first to admit the training is pretty poor

RM DAFC
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 Re: Question for those who are refs or know ref training..
Topic Originator: Thaipar  
Date:   Mon 5 Aug 15:16

Quote:

ParsPryde, Mon 5 Aug 14:01

Thank all for your responses and clearing up my lack of knowledge of the workings of becoming a referee.

It appears refs today are NOT as bad as I thought and the ones in the past weren't all brilliant.

So does this mean that I AM turning into a grumpy old lady and probably should get my eye tested too ... No need to answer that question though folks :D


Parspryde did u stay in Allan Crescent?

Please don't book me Admin, it will ruin my life.
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 Re: Question for those who are refs or know ref training..
Topic Originator: 1970par  
Date:   Mon 5 Aug 15:21

It’s now becoming very obvious that it’s not just the baldy refs who are terrible it’s most of them, the baldy ones are better to give constructive feedback to though
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 Re: Question for those who are refs or know ref training..
Topic Originator: Lambo1885  
Date:   Mon 5 Aug 15:24

I think Grant's right, refereeing hasn't got any better or worse but the amount of cameras at games just highlight their mistakes more. Also, people tend to only remember the mistakes that go against their team, opposed to those in favour.

PuP makes a good point i regards the commentators talking in cliches and not really knowing the rules themselves. BT i think it was last season had a referee give his opinion on decisions during games. It was quite interesting as they would explain the rule and the referees thinking in making the decision.
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 Re: Question for those who are refs or know ref training..
Topic Originator: Playup_Pompey  
Date:   Mon 5 Aug 15:27

As with anything you cant/wont learn something to 100% by sitting in a classroom so the "theory" side of it can only touch on so much. The basics such as kit requirements, pitch sizes etc can be drilled into you. The application of the laws and the way you handle/react to things comes from refereeing games. You will see many things in youth games that you should never see the higher up you move (foul throws).

How much you "learn" and develop is really down to you. Watch games at all levels, work with guys who have experience, watch how they handle things. Ive done it with 2-3 guys and they know they will get a couple of things wrong every game (perks of amateur football and being in middle alone) however talking to players like they are human and being respectful to them, explaining a decision will go a long way.

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 Re: Question for those who are refs or know ref training..
Topic Originator: rossmcno1  
Date:   Mon 5 Aug 16:12

The classroom training for refs is pretty good. Where it falls down is the coaching/overcoaching subsequently. That and the pace of the game is such that referees sometimes do have an impossible job. The quality has not declined, it just hasn’t kept up with the growth in pace and demands of the modern day game. For every Greg Aitken on Friday, there’s a Stuart Dougal missing a blatant handball in the 2004 cup final. Or David Syme awarding the penalty v Airdrie for a chest down by Sandison.



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 Re: Question for those who are refs or know ref training..
Topic Originator: ParsPryde  
Date:   Mon 5 Aug 16:31

Thaipar,
Nope not me. Never been in Allan Crescent. (Presuming Dunfermline)
Might be one of my many uncles/aunts/cousins you are thinking of as dad comes from a BIG family :D

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