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 Well feck you, Alf Ramsay!
Topic Originator: OzPar  
Date:   Fri 1 Nov 10:36

You went and spoilt our game. You brought the 442 system to Britain in the mid-sixties when we were perfectly content with 235.

We all knew in our hearts that the annual matches at Hampden or Wembley were effectively the unofficial world championships. When it came to football, Scotland and England were all that really mattered. Who cared about Hungary or Italy or Brazil? They were just exotic aberrations.

Stanley - fecking - Rouse! Why the feck did you spoil things in the first place by bringing that damn World Cup to England in 1966?

And then allow the sods to go and bloody win it???

Before that act of stupidity, football was a simple, uncomplicated game that we all understood and loved. Each player had a position that we could recite with more accuracy than the "Our Father" - there was the goalkeeper, the right-back, the left-back; the right-half, centre-half, left-half; the outside right, the inside right, centre-forward, inside-left and outside left.

Yes, young 'uns, there actually were FIVE forwards!

And we could picture in our mind precisely the area of the football pitch that each position covered.

The shirts on the players were numbered 1 to 11; people instinctively knew how to announce the team in the correct order and everything was just hunky-dory.

We knew instantly if a player was drifting out of his position and we'd sure as heck soon tell him.

We had no subs; if a player got injured, we just accepted it; we went down to ten men and we knew that, for us, things were destined to get a wee bit more exciting.

And then you go and spoil everything!

Thanks to you, Alf - fecking - Ramsay, here we are today debating what a winger is, questioning whether midfielders are appropriately using "channels" to feed their undernourished forward who is operating in thankless solitude up front.

We debate whether we should have three, four or five players at the back. Or should we operate with two, three, four or five in midfield? Perhaps we should switch to the diamond formation and have defensive/offensive midfielders? But, who should they play off? And of course, should we operate with one or two strikers upfront?

Referees and linesmen have always been sources of annoyance to the fans - but we had a grudging respect for guys like Wharton and Davidson back in the sixties. They were gentlemen and we knew they were tough but fair.

Referees and linesmen today are to all intents and purposes facing redundancy as technology in the form of VAR takes over their role. It is quite conceivable that the 3pm game, that always finished around 4.45, could well run past 5pm in the future.

Not to mention how VAR delays might affect games being played on Friday nights, Saturday lunchtimes and Sundays.

Feck you Rupert Murdoch and Robert Maxwell.

Meanwhile, the much taken-for-granted fans look on in utter bewilderment.

Left to sit in their designated seats in half-empty stadiums, miles from their friends who they had earlier met in the pub, fans are left helplessly exposed to the freezing rain that is driving straight at them. They think back fondly to the times when they were free to walk around their stadium and pick out a spot to keep warm, usually in a huddle of fans under covered terracing well away from exposure to the prevailing weather.

Yes, Lord Justice Taylor, we are looking at you... feck you too, mate!

Of course, the sublime irony of all this is that, despite our willingness to pay homage to the "expert" commentators on the TV, who are paid outrageous fees to make the game sound as complicated and technical as possible, the reality is that despite their best efforts football really isn't that much more complex than it was in the days before Alf fecking Ramsay.

So feck you, David Coleman and Kenneth Wolstenholme. Look what you went and started!!!

Football has got faster and slicker for sure, and the players are infinitely fitter than their 1960s counterparts, but the fundamentals remain the same. It is still a simple-to-understand game and that is why, whether you are in Ballingry or Bangkok, Rosyth or Rome, we all have something in common to talk about and enjoy.

Yep, try as he might, Alf fecking Ramsay couldn't take that away from us...

:)

.
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 Re: Well feck you, Alf Ramsay!
Topic Originator: Rigger Al  
Date:   Fri 1 Nov 10:56

Quote:

OzPar, Fri 1 Nov 10:36

You went and spoilt our game. You brought the 442 system to Britain in the mid-sixties when we were perfectly content with 235.

We all knew in our hearts that the annual matches at Hampden or Wembley were effectively the unofficial world championships. When it came to football, Scotland and England were all that really mattered. Who cared about Hungary or Italy or Brazil? They were just exotic aberrations.

Stanley - fecking - Rouse! Why the feck did you spoil things in the first place by bringing that damn World Cup to England in 1966?

And then allow the sods to go and bloody win it???

Before that act of stupidity, football was a simple, uncomplicated game that we all understood and loved. Each player had a position that we could recite with more accuracy than the "Our Father" - there was the goalkeeper, the right-back, the left-back; the right-half, centre-half, left-half; the outside right, the inside right, centre-forward, inside-left and outside left.

Yes, young 'uns, there actually were FIVE forwards!

And we could picture in our mind precisely the area of the football pitch that each position covered.

The shirts on the players were numbered 1 to 11; people instinctively knew how to announce the team in the correct order and everything was just hunky-dory.

We knew instantly if a player was drifting out of his position and we'd sure as heck soon tell him.

We had no subs; if a player got injured, we just accepted it; we went down to ten men and we knew that, for us, things were destined to get a wee bit more exciting.

And then you go and spoil everything!

Thanks to you, Alf - fecking - Ramsay, here we are today debating what a winger is, questioning whether midfielders are appropriately using "channels" to feed their undernourished forward who is operating in thankless solitude up front.

We debate whether we should have three, four or five players at the back. Or should we operate with two, three, four or five in midfield? Perhaps we should switch to the diamond formation and have defensive/offensive midfielders? But, who should they play off? And of course, should we operate with one or two strikers upfront?

Referees and linesmen have always been sources of annoyance to the fans - but we had a grudging respect for guys like Wharton and Davidson back in the sixties. They were gentlemen and we knew they were tough but fair.

Referees and linesmen today are to all intents and purposes facing redundancy as technology in the form of VAR takes over their role. It is quite conceivable that the 3pm game, that always finished around 4.45, could well run past 5pm in the future.

Not to mention how VAR delays might affect games being played on Friday nights, Saturday lunchtimes and Sundays.

Feck you Rupert Murdoch and Robert Maxwell.

Meanwhile, the much taken-for-granted fans look on in utter bewilderment.

Left to sit in their designated seats in half-empty stadiums, miles from their friends who they had earlier met in the pub, fans are left helplessly exposed to the freezing rain that is driving straight at them. They think back fondly to the times when they were free to walk around their stadium and pick out a spot to keep warm, usually in a huddle of fans under covered terracing well away from exposure to the prevailing weather.

Yes, Lord Justice Taylor, we are looking at you... feck you too, mate!

Of course, the sublime irony of all this is that, despite our willingness to pay homage to the "expert" commentators on the TV, who are paid outrageous fees to make the game sound as complicated and technical as possible, the reality is that despite their best efforts football really isn't that much more complex than it was in the days before Alf fecking Ramsay.

So feck you, David Coleman and Kenneth Wolstenholme. Look what you went and started!!!

Football has got faster and slicker for sure, and the players are infinitely fitter than their 1960s counterparts, but the fundamentals remain the same. It is still a simple-to-understand game and that is why, whether you are in Ballingry or Bangkok, Rosyth or Rome, we all have something in common to talk about and enjoy.

Yep, try as he might, Alf fecking Ramsay couldn't take that away from us...

:)

.


Glad you got that out your stmystem Sandy 😂
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 Re: Well feck you, Alf Ramsay!
Topic Originator: wee eck  
Date:   Fri 1 Nov 12:05

I thought it was 4-3-3 that Alf Ramsey favoured - nae wingers!
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 Re: Well feck you, Alf Ramsay!
Topic Originator: sammer  
Date:   Fri 1 Nov 12:14

I assume this was tongue in cheek stuff Ozpar. We hear plenty about 1966 but precious little about Alf Ramsey, the architect of the victory. Ramsay disliked the media and made no secret of it so there have been very few books or even articles about the only man who ever, and probably ever will, win the World Cup for England. He also disliked Scots, Argentineans, in fact just about anybody who was not English. But he understood one thing better than any England manager since: England are not actually very good at the game.
As for tactics, Jock Stein played 4-4-2 against Everton in 1962 so Ramsey can’t shoulder all the blame.

I’m not sure that R.H. Davidson was the most respected referee around: Jock Stein thought he was biased against Celtic.

The Taylor Report, from memory, did not insist on all seater stadia; Taylor was also conscious of the cost implications of doing so.

Players may not be very much fitter than in the past. If you are not being tackled, and the ball is much easier to strike over long distance, then I assume you can run a bit quicker over 90 minutes. And if you can’t, then there are subs to keep the tempo up. When breathing gets difficult a player just goes down for 30 seconds and the ref stops the game. The passing is certainly slicker and faster than before, but most of the time it is sideways and back, so requires no great movement.
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 Re: Well feck you, Alf Ramsay!
Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks  
Date:   Fri 1 Nov 15:06

The players are fitter because by and large they work harder at being fitter than players of yesteryear.

Turn on, Tune in, Drop out.
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 Re: Well feck you, Alf Ramsay!
Topic Originator: 68guns  
Date:   Fri 1 Nov 18:45

Inverting the pyramid by Jonathon Wilson will give you answers to all your tactical questions
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 Re: Well feck you, Alf Ramsay!
Topic Originator: OzPar  
Date:   Sat 2 Nov 00:30

<<The players are fitter because by and large they work harder at being fitter than players of yesteryear.>>


Totally agree with that, TOWK. I remember getting Willie Callaghan and John Lunn's autographs when they were standing outside the team bus puffing away on their ciggies. They were by no means unique in those days.
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 Re: Well feck you, Alf Ramsay!
Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks  
Date:   Sat 2 Nov 00:37

Yep, unique sums it up. When players these days take of their shirts to celebrate it looks like their torso has been chiselled from marble. At all levels the standard of athletic professionalism has, in the main, increased considerably from anything before the late nineties at best.

Turn on, Tune in, Drop out.
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 Re: Well feck you, Alf Ramsay!
Topic Originator: sammer  
Date:   Sat 2 Nov 03:27

I think you are all being blinded by science.
Marciano would have have most of the modern puffed up by steroid heavyweights for breakfast. Seven rounds and a KO to Marciano once he wore them down. Ali too, if he could stop laughing at their inability to coordinate punches.

Ditto the 'better food and nutrition' taken by modern footballers which is only a euphemism for the drugs that all athletes now take in professional sport. A ripped physique does not make a man stronger than Roy Barry. Joe Jordan, John Charles and even pint sixed Bobby Collins had natural power which cannot be recreated through ''diet and nutrition.' You can develop the power or speed you are born with but not create it.

As a lifelong smoker aged 64 I run faster than most non-smokers because I was built to run. Smoking only affects your recovery time, not your actual running speed. Willie Callaghan and John Lunn would still be quicker than almost any player in the modern game they came up against. All the rest is just propaganda and bourgeois self-righteousness from the sports fan paying well over the odds.
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 Re: Well feck you, Alf Ramsay!
Topic Originator: BigJPar  
Date:   Sat 2 Nov 06:02

Quote:

sammer, Sat 2 Nov 03:27

I think you are all being blinded by science.
Marciano would have have most of the modern puffed up by steroid heavyweights for breakfast. Seven rounds and a KO to Marciano once he wore them down. Ali too, if he could stop laughing at their inability to coordinate punches.

Ditto the 'better food and nutrition' taken by modern footballers which is only a euphemism for the drugs that all athletes now take in professional sport. A ripped physique does not make a man stronger than Roy Barry. Joe Jordan, John Charles and even pint sixed Bobby Collins had natural power which cannot be recreated through ''diet and nutrition.' You can develop the power or speed you are born with but not create it.

As a lifelong smoker aged 64 I run faster than most non-smokers because I was built to run. Smoking only affects your recovery time, not your actual running speed. Willie Callaghan and John Lunn would still be quicker than almost any player in the modern game they came up against. All the rest is just propaganda and bourgeois self-righteousness from the sports fan paying well over the odds.


What a lot of nonsense.
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 Re: Well feck you, Alf Ramsay!
Topic Originator: Mario  
Date:   Sat 2 Nov 08:12

If only there had been VAR back then..
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 Re: Well feck you, Alf Ramsay!
Topic Originator: Stanza  
Date:   Sat 2 Nov 11:30

In every sporting activity which is capable of measurement, modern sportsmen (and sportswomen) are bigger and stronger, can run faster, jump higher and longer, and throw further than their equivalents in previous generations.

It is highly unlikely that footballers are the exception to this.

Sammer may believe that all athletes now take drugs in professional sport, which is a pretty serious allegation. Young people are bigger than previous generations, so when this is allied to improved nutrition and a better understanding of the physical demands of top-level sport, then the results are clear to see. Better equipment and facilities help too.

No amount of training can replicate the skills of Best, Baxter, Johnstone, Cruyff etc, or maybe the natural "hardness" of Bremner, Mackay, Barry etc, but to suggest that players of their generation are at the same physical level as today's equivalents is (IMO) the result of wearing rose-tinted spectacles.



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Post Edited (Sat 02 Nov 12:27)
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 Re: Well feck you, Alf Ramsay!
Topic Originator: sammer  
Date:   Sat 2 Nov 22:28

Stanza,

A thoughtful post, but I cannot really buy into any of it. It’s not an allegation that sportsmen take drugs; it’s rather a question of who is caught. I’m old enough to have seen Allan Wells when he was a long jumper and was first change for the Scottish relay team, at Meadowbank. Next time I saw him he had shoulders like a blacksmith. What happened? Nutrition? Diet? Linford Christie developed a similar inexplicable burst of speed, running faster in his 30s than he had done as a young man. More diet and nutrition?

The modern footballer is well trained to carry out the job he has to do and that makes him more supple, better at taking the ball on the turn and more aware of the possible passing options around him. Good. It makes for a more coherent game of football. I loved watching Pars players like Edwards and Callaghan, but the modern player receives the ball far better, partly because he knows he is not going to be tackled as he receives it. It's swings and roundabouts.

However it is sheer fantasy to imagine that the modern footballer is better, or even more fit for his craft, than the player from yesterday. We are talking about human beings here, not cars. Two hard, fair tackles would have put Messi out to the fringes of many a game that I saw; in fact I saw Messi play one of his first games as a teenager for Argentina in Qatar and could sense he did not relish a tackle. He was a bit feart. Still, he developed into a a great player and would have been so in any era.

The system wants you to believe that you are paying more today for a better version of yesterday. They introduce pseudo scientific jargon like ‘diet and nutrition ‘to convince us the modern player is a committed athlete. It’s mostly bollocks. Callaghan and Lunn still remain the fastest two full backs DAFC have ever had. If I am wrong, name them.
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 Re: Well feck you, Alf Ramsay!
Topic Originator: OzPar  
Date:   Sun 3 Nov 02:06

Didn’t Kenny Thomson get crowned the fastest Scottish footballer in a race at Powderhall (IIRC) in the early 70s? He was a defender as I recall.
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 Re: Well feck you, Alf Ramsay!
Topic Originator: eastendalloapar  
Date:   Sun 3 Nov 09:36

He did, I believe his father was a coach.

matt forsyth
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 Re: Well feck you, Alf Ramsay!
Topic Originator: veteraneastender  
Date:   Sun 3 Nov 11:11

"In every sporting activity which is capable of measurement, modern sportsmen (and sportswomen) are bigger and stronger, can run faster, jump higher and longer, and throw further than their equivalents in previous generations."

In all the near 60 years I've followed Scottish football nobody has ever surpassed Bobby Lennox in stamina and speed - he was like the Duracell Bunny.
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 Re: Well feck you, Alf Ramsay!
Topic Originator: GG Riva  
Date:   Sun 3 Nov 14:51

My recollection of football in the 60s is that players did not/were not expected to defend and attack as a team, like many do now.
e.g. when defending a corner, you could often see as many as three attacking players standing on the halfway line, hands on hips, waiting on their team mates to clear the ball upfield.

My impression now is that players do far more running during 90 mins, whether that proves they're fitter or not, I don't know for certain, but I'm inclined to lean that way. The fact that very few players smoke now must also be a factor. Sorry Sammer, but no matter how fit you are, you'd be fitter if you didn't smoke.

I'm also quite friendly with a number of former Pars players from the 60s, who are regular attendars at EEP on match days. We've had this discussion before and they all agree that today's players are far fitter than they were.



Not your average Sunday League player.


Post Edited (Sun 03 Nov 14:52)
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 Re: Well feck you, Alf Ramsay!
Topic Originator: veteraneastender  
Date:   Sun 3 Nov 15:46

GG - did any of those players feature in the 3 competitive games over five days in season 64/65 ?

How many modern players could hack that schedule - a league fixture, Scottish Cup 2nd replay and a European tie ?
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 Re: Well feck you, Alf Ramsay!
Topic Originator: Stanza  
Date:   Sun 3 Nov 18:20

Where I agree with sammer is that modern players do not have to put up with the physicality of defenders' challenges in the same way that players of previous generations had to. In every game the likes of Best and Johnstone were hacked down by defenders in a way that would not be permitted nowadays, but very seldom did they react. Similar treatment was dished out at every level in football to anyone with a modicum of skill. The modern concept of falling down in the penalty box at the slightest contact was (rightly) considered unmanly and unsporting.

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 Re: Well feck you, Alf Ramsay!
Topic Originator: GG Riva  
Date:   Sun 3 Nov 19:00

Quote:

veteraneastender, Sun 3 Nov 15:46

GG - did any of those players feature in the 3 competitive games over five days in season 64/65 ?

How many modern players could hack that schedule - a league fixture, Scottish Cup 2nd replay and a European tie ?


Playing 3 games in 5 days is a punishing, almost inhuman schedule, but it doesn't necessarily mean that the players taking part then were fitter. I'd imagine they were pretty knackered after that 3rd game. I remember a SC tie v Aberdeen in which we drew 2-2 at Pittodrie, in spite of freak conditions which saw us playing into a gale for 90 mins. (The wind changed direction at half time!) We had to replay 48 hrs later on the Monday at EEP, because we had a European tie on the Wednesday. We never turned up and lost 2-0.

As I said further up, the players themselves don't think they're as fit as those of today. Maybe they're mistaken?



Not your average Sunday League player.
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