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 VAR - A Disaster so Far...☹
Topic Originator: GG Riva  
Date:   Mon 4 Nov 07:39

Sunday's Everton v Spurs match encapsulated all that's wrong with VAR - and I'm one of those who was in favour of its introduction.

It may be scant consolation for English fans, but they're having similar teething problems in other countries where it's being used. Let's hope they really are just teething problems.



Not your average Sunday League player.
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 Re: VAR - A Disaster so Far...☹
Topic Originator: KilsythPar  
Date:   Mon 4 Nov 09:06

The main problem is that there are in effect two different referees. They must allow the onfield ref to have the final say for contentious incidents, so they have to be allowed to look at the pitch side monitors which are clearly available but not being used. The argument about it taking too long is nonsense because the current system is taking longer as the VAR ref hesitates to overrule the onfield ref.
The VAR ref should only rule on black and white issues such as offsides.
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 Re: VAR - A Disaster so Far...☹
Topic Originator: Playup_Pompey  
Date:   Mon 4 Nov 10:01

"taking too long" if you need to replay something 3/4 times at super slow mo to make a decision then you should stick with the original decision

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 Re: VAR - A Disaster so Far...☹
Topic Originator: Andrew283  
Date:   Mon 4 Nov 10:53

It's failing due to poor implementation by the FA. Half assing the system will only make matters worse for players, fans and referees
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 Re: VAR - A Disaster so Far...☹
Topic Originator: londonparsfan  
Date:   Mon 4 Nov 10:58

Yeah it's been disappointing in the way it's been implemented which has led to unnecessary controversy around the system and I'm also pro VAR.

3 minutes when you're watching a replay of an incident might not sound that long when you're watching the pictures at home and you can see what the VAR teams are trying to decide but at the game it starts to feel like a long time with no idea what's going on. They definitely need to get the reviews on the TVs at the ground so supporters can follow it.

Yes this will lead to increased noise as supporters see something they think should be given but it's not really that different from supporters appealing for something during the game. Rugby and their officials seem to survive doing it.
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 Re: VAR - A Disaster so Far...☹
Topic Originator: kelty_par  
Date:   Mon 4 Nov 11:12

I hate to say I told you so...

The main issues were obvious to everyone who was against it, but the Premier League have made it even worse. For one thing, the refusal to allow referees to view the pitch-side monitor is bizarre - the Richarlison penalty claim and the Alli handball yesterday were perfect examples of where the referee was unsighted and a quick look at the monitor would have shown that there was a foul in the first incident and Alli was "making himself bigger" so there should have been a penalty there too.

The second issue that the Premier League seem to have decided that they are going to back their referees no matter what, to the extent that they are essentially making up laws as they go along (Son should have got - and initially was given - a yellow card, but since it was then changed to a red card based on the injury the Premier League have said that the severity of the injury is taken into account which it isn't! They also made up some nonsense about the Alli handball not being a penalty because both he and the Everton player were challenging for the ball which again isn't in the laws of the game). This isn't the first time of course; when VAR was brought in they said they wouldn't be using it to check whether or not the keeper was off his line for penalty kicks.

As for the Firminho offside (which seems to have been ignored somewhat because Liverpool won and there have been worse decisions since then) - this was a so-called black and white decision (offside) which was essentially a subjective call by the VAR decided where to draw the lines and to say he was offside. It would have been interesting to see what the decision would have been if the original decision had been that he was onside; I rather suspect that the decision would have stood in that case too. Or am I just being cynical?
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 Re: VAR - A Disaster so Far...☹
Topic Originator: Playup_Pompey  
Date:   Mon 4 Nov 11:43

The firminho on was flagged by the official and all the FA needed to say in any statement was there was no clear and obvious errot when VAR conducted the review and that sticks with the whole reason why VAR was introduced.

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 Re: VAR - A Disaster so Far...☹
Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks  
Date:   Mon 4 Nov 12:01

Yet again the issue isn't with the var but with the people making the decisions. Either way you slice it var has enabled more correct decisions to be made than wrong ones. That's a win in my book.
Kelty I'm not sure what you mean by the positioning of the offside lines. The line will go directly across the pitch from one point to its corresponding point on the opposite side. They aren't going in diagonals.

Turn on, Tune in, Drop out.
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 Re: VAR - A Disaster so Far...☹
Topic Originator: wetherby  
Date:   Mon 4 Nov 12:22

on the offside rule , i thought that you had to be able to “score” with that part of the body which was offside ie if your “ hand” was offside that wouldnt matter as you cant score with your hand. So having said that someone on Match of the Day was ruled offside because his “arm” was in an offside position !
So , have i misunderstood the offside rule?

In respect of VAR what it is highlighting is that refereeing decisions are made in real time and revolve around very fine margins. Sometimes its impossible to determine what happened despite looking at it 3or 4 times!
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 Re: VAR - A Disaster so Far...☹
Topic Originator: kelty_par  
Date:   Mon 4 Nov 12:59

"Yet again the issue isn't with the var but with the people making the decisions. Either way you slice it var has enabled more correct decisions to be made than wrong ones. That's a win in my book."

Has it though? Incorrect decisions weren't being overturned a few weeks ago (Watford being denied a penalty at Spurs, the Dele Alli handball goal in the same game), last week correct decisions were overturned (the Arsenal "winning goal") and now it seems to have swung back to not overturning incorrect decisions again (the decisions referred to above). The offside reversals (like the Arsenal goal at Old Trafford) are the only ones where you can say for sure where there has been an increase in correct decisions, and how many of them have there actually been?

"Kelty I'm not sure what you mean by the positioning of the offside lines. The line will go directly across the pitch from one point to its corresponding point on the opposite side. They aren't going in diagonals."

I mean the vertical lines from the player onto the pitch. The VAR technician clicks the point on the body where the line drops down from - he is making a judgement call on where the arm ends and the shoulder starts etc. In the Firmino goal from the weekend, the point where the vertical line goes down from looks very close to me - had the technician decided his arm started a bit further out then he'd have been onside!
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 Re: VAR - A Disaster so Far...☹
Topic Originator: Big T Par  
Date:   Mon 4 Nov 13:43

I was at the Stuttgart - Dresden game on Sunday, and there were constant banners getting put up by both sets of fans, basically saying to get VAR tae FK. There was an instant when a Dresden boy got taken out in the box, the ref waved play on, then got told by VAR to have a look. Took 4 minutes to decide it was a penalty. Even the Dresden fans were booing lol

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 Re: VAR - A Disaster so Far...☹
Topic Originator: parathletic  
Date:   Mon 4 Nov 13:44

What it was supposed to do was to take away the discussion around contentious decisions and allow the talking to be about football-the exact opposite has happened.Every week on Match of the Day there is a section solely dedicated to VAR.It was also supposed to bring in consistency of decisions-again that hasn't happened imo. Football just isn't as compatible with technology as other sports as a lot of the decisions are subjective. Whether you have a poor referee on the park or one watching the TV it makes no difference-we would be better served concentrating on getting a better quality of official. VAR has put more pressure on the referees than ever before and has led to some of them shirking the big decisions out of fear of getting it wrong.

I've yet to see a week go by where VAR hasn't been involved in a wrong decision and some have been shockers.Last week Man City had a goal allowed from De Bruyne's cross as they said Silva didn't touch it.It was clear (having watched the VAR replay)that he did and the goal was eventually credited to him despite being offside.Arsenal had a good goal chopped off last week,Son should never have been given a red card yesterday, Alli handballed it under any of my versions of the handball rule(if you go up with your hands well above your head then you are asking for trouble) and Everton were also denied another stonewaller-I could go on!

Goal-line technology has been a great introduction and has become a mainstay but VAR is losing supporters by the week and I hope it goes down as a failed experiment-it simply isn't worth the cost financially or to the overall product.
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 Re: VAR - A Disaster so Far...☹
Topic Originator: calytiff  
Date:   Mon 4 Nov 14:26

In most sports you are only allowed so many appeals to video evidence so why is football trying to judge a whole game each team should be allowed 3 appeals a game to Var . This should reduce the amount of interference by VAR has on the game.

d blackburn
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 Re: VAR - A Disaster so Far...☹
Topic Originator: Paralex  
Date:   Mon 4 Nov 15:28

It's the human element that is causing the problems. What is needed is a computer program to decide matters. A program set up to analyse and judge consistently on the various scenarios and come out with a decision will exclude human bias and give a regular and consistent judgement on each situation.
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 Re: VAR - A Disaster so Far...☹
Topic Originator: elvis_lives  
Date:   Mon 4 Nov 16:24

A clear and obvious error doesn't take 3 minutes to rectify.
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 Re: VAR - A Disaster so Far...☹
Topic Originator: Parsweep  
Date:   Mon 4 Nov 16:30

Hated it being introduced and hate it more now .
Takes more away from the game than it adds in my opinion .

Bobvo
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 Re: VAR - A Disaster so Far...☹
Topic Originator: londonparsfan  
Date:   Mon 4 Nov 16:42

'What it was supposed to do was to take away the discussion around contentious decisions and allow the talking to be about football-the exact opposite has happened.Every week on Match of the Day there is a section solely dedicated to VAR'

With the greatest of respect mate it was never meant to remove contentious decisions as there was always going to be an interpretive element to the reviews and refs are still going to make mistakes even with better viewing angles.

What it has failed to do is minimise the error rate to as low as what it could have been. The edict to start with appeared to be that the authorities only wanted very specific cases to be over turned which led to some decisions not being changed when they probably should have.

Then they changed those guidelines and you had the spate of what felt like a series of over reactions to the change in guidance and more mistakes were made a couple of weeks back.

Throw in changes to the handball rules and that has made some more decisions feel inconsistent.

There have been some blatant penalties missed for Man City and West Ham (and probably a few more) and the issue with fans not knowing what's going on and whoever mentioned the clock should stop for VAR was correct.

There might well be a section on VAR but there was also a section on ref watch every week. As I said on the other thread, prior to VAR the teams sat and watched the TV replays in real time at the games and were able to get pretty much the correct decision from the replays where they would then berate the 4th and match officials if they'd got something wrong. It would be daft not to continue to use VAR in that scenario.

Whilst I think disaster was a wee bit ott, it's definitely not been without its faults and for all the things that could be improved its still getting more right than it is wrong and its definitely got more right than than not using it at all.

If you look at the published stats around the leagues it proves it.
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 Re: VAR - A Disaster so Far...☹
Topic Originator: parathletic  
Date:   Mon 4 Nov 17:14

I can see your take LPF and it's a divisive issue. In the past, in theory I was for it but it hasn't worked in practice imo.It's never going to be implemented in lower league football due to costs and is taking the elite further away from the rest.Players are claiming for everything and it's slowing down the game.It has removed some errors but also created errors that didn't exist until VAR got involved e.g Sons red card and Arsenals goal getting chopped off last week.

I knew it was never going to take away contentious decisions and that's kind of my point.I meant it would take away from the discussion around it i.e the refs decision is final.There's a human element to refereeing on the field and also to doing it in a studio-how can VAR ever overcome that? It's about individuals making the correct decision.

It was me who mentioned on another thread about the clock being stopped.If it is to be used that seems like a no-brainer to me.I'd probably keep it for offside too but I would like to see that rule changed to clear daylight being involved as an armpit offside isn't gaining a clear advantage imo and we shouldn't be taking away from the name of the game-scoring goals. I think I heard recently there may be some developments in terms of technology in that area?
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 Re: VAR - A Disaster so Far...☹
Topic Originator: USMac  
Date:   Mon 4 Nov 18:23

You can't bite off with VAR more than you can chew. My view is that they are trying to accomplish too much with it. Should they really be reviewing an incident on a turnover that leads to a counterattacking goal, e.g., Man Utd v. Liverpool? You want the reviewing folks to be very circumscribed in their review -- so it takes less time.

To me, two big contention points in the past on goals have been:
1) Offsides
2) Hand ball

VAR should be limited to addressing those two points. If VAR can get those 2 points right most of the time, that would go a long way towards correcting the game without delaying it unreasonably.
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 Re: VAR - A Disaster so Far...☹
Topic Originator: LochgellyAlbert  
Date:   Mon 4 Nov 19:00

If we had VAR at EEP on Saturday the big black QOS midfielder would have been off!🏁🏁🏁
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 Re: VAR - A Disaster so Far...☹
Topic Originator: widtink  
Date:   Mon 4 Nov 20:11

Like it or lump it... It's here to stay.
Embrace it... Or go watch badminton. (other sports are available) 🤣



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 Re: VAR - A Disaster so Far...☹
Topic Originator: GG Riva  
Date:   Tue 5 Nov 16:38

Quote:

widtink, Mon 4 Nov 20:11

Like it or lump it... It's here to stay.
Embrace it... Or go watch badminton. (other sports are available) 🤣


Yes, it's here to stay, but many folk in the game are distinctly unhappy with it. There's nowt wrong with the technology itself, but it's implementation has been pretty poor.

I'd like to see a cross section of people with a special interest in the game, including fans, players, managers, pundits and referees, to be given the opportunity to put their proposals as to how the use of VAR could be improved to those responsible for it.

They could then cherry pick the best ideas.



Not your average Sunday League player.
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 Re: VAR - A Disaster so Far...☹
Topic Originator: GG Riva  
Date:   Mon 11 Nov 07:01

No sign of the controversy abating any time soon.

This weekend we had a Sheffield United goal ruled out after 3 min 42 secs for offside against a blade of grass on Lundstram's boot in the build up and even worse, in arguably the most important match of the season so far, Man City are denied a stonewall penalty under the new rules, only for Liverpool to run up to the other end and score the crucial opening goal......

VAR is having the polar opposite effect to what it was brought in to do. Yesterday, it may just have erroneously assigned the EPL title.



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 Re: VAR - A Disaster so Far...☹
Topic Originator: AJ27  
Date:   Mon 11 Nov 08:03

I just disagreed with you on another thread - wholeheartedly agree with you on this one.
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 Re: VAR - A Disaster so Far...☹
Topic Originator: Buspasspar  
Date:   Mon 11 Nov 08:27

What are the rules if a penalty had been awarded by var after Liverpool scored would the Liverpool goal still stand ? or chalked off ?
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 Re: VAR - A Disaster so Far...☹
Topic Originator: GG Riva  
Date:   Mon 11 Nov 08:35

Quote:

Buspasspar, Mon 11 Nov 08:27

What are the rules if a penalty had been awarded by var after Liverpool scored would the Liverpool goal still stand ? or chalked off ?


I'm sure the play would have to be brought back, so Fabinho's goal would have had to be chalked off.



Not your average Sunday League player.
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 Re: VAR - A Disaster so Far...☹
Topic Originator: Bandy  
Date:   Mon 11 Nov 09:15

There's no argument about whether TAA's hand hit the ball. As I recall the ball didn't go out of play before Fabinho's goal.

Why then was Fabinho's goal not chalked off as the ball hit a hand in the build up?
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 Re: VAR - A Disaster so Far...☹
Topic Originator: allparone  
Date:   Mon 11 Nov 09:32

VAR seems to be reluctant to overturn the original decision by the referee. If he misses something they act but tend to agree with the ref if he’s seen it. The game yesterday didn’t have any decisions overturned by VAR so it was as if it was a game where it wasn’t being used. The only difference is that VAR is again being pilloried whereas if it wasn’t in use, the referee would be taking the flak after the game. I’ve never once heard anyone ask how the referee thought it wasn’t a penalty. Would VAR have overturned the decision if the ref had given it? I’d doubt it tbh.



Post Edited (Mon 11 Nov 09:33)
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 Re: VAR - A Disaster so Far...☹
Topic Originator: londonparsfan  
Date:   Mon 11 Nov 10:52

Quote:

Bandy, Mon 11 Nov 09:15

There's no argument about whether TAA's hand hit the ball. As I recall the ball didn't go out of play before Fabinho's goal.

Why then was Fabinho's goal not chalked off as the ball hit a hand in the build up?


That's a really interesting question and one I was actually asking last night - how close to a goal being scored does a hand ball have to be for it to disallow the goal? Where is the cut off point? Is it time elapsed in the lead up to a goal? Is it distance from the goal when it happened? Is it a combination of those factors? Does the ball going dead reset the hand ball?

In the case last night the goal could have been avoided by Aguero simply playing to the whistle and continuing to challenge for the ball rather than stopping and appealing for the penalty. Should a scenario like that impact the decision and add more weight to the goal standing?
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 Re: VAR - A Disaster so Far...☹
Topic Originator: Frank Butchers LoveHandles  
Date:   Mon 11 Nov 11:35

I agree with the concept of VAR but they need to scrap it until they can get it working properly. It's a glorified shambles at the moment.

Awight Pat!
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 Re: VAR - A Disaster so Far...☹
Topic Originator: Bandy  
Date:   Mon 11 Nov 12:25

Good points LPF - I've no idea where the 'line' is drawn. Probably something to do with 'phases of play', which is another phrase I've never properly understood. My guess (having not read the rules) is that a new phase of play started when the City defence cleared the ball to Fabinho and, as such, the ball striking TAA's hand was in a different phase.

Maybe one of our resident rules gurus can help on both counts..

1. Where is the 'line drawn' as to whether a 'handball' directly contributed to a goal being scored?

2. What is a 'phase of play'?
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 Re: VAR - A Disaster so Far...☹
Topic Originator: kelty_par  
Date:   Mon 11 Nov 12:59

A handball in the build up to a goal is only used to chalk off a goal if the player themselves score or if the handball leads directly to a goal or goalscoring opportunity (i.e. if the ball falls to someone who can have a shot at goal).
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 Re: VAR - A Disaster so Far...☹
Topic Originator: Bandy  
Date:   Mon 11 Nov 13:24

Not sure if that definition is the official definition, but it's ripe with ambiguity. You 'can have a shot at goal' from anywhere on the pitch. Not particularly wise to do so, but you can.
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 Re: VAR - A Disaster so Far...☹
Topic Originator: londonparsfan  
Date:   Mon 11 Nov 15:23

Exactly - City have had a goal chalked off when the attacker still had to beat a couple of players to get a shot away. You could theoretically have an accidental hand ball that's miles away from goal (not traditional shooting range) but puts a player clear through.
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 Re: VAR - A Disaster so Far...☹
Topic Originator: Socks  
Date:   Mon 11 Nov 15:46

The above is pretty much exactly what's written:

It is an offence if a player:

deliberately touches the ball with their hand/arm, including moving the hand/arm towards the ball

gains possession/control of the ball after it has touched their hand/arm and then:

scores in the opponents’ goal

creates a goal-scoring opportunity

scores in the opponents’ goal directly from their hand/arm, even if accidental, including by the goalkeeper


The handball changes this season are absolute horseshit. The extreme version of what's discussed above is if the ball accidentally hits a defender's arm in the penalty area (with arm down by his side), it falls to his feet and he blindly hoofs it up the park. His teammate runs on to it and scores at the other end. Only because he's inadvertently created a chance at the other end is it now a foul against him, and since he happened to be in his own box it's a penalty.

The idea that what happens after the incident should determine whether or not it was a foul is stupid beyond belief.

As for VAR - I'm not surprised at all and indeed I mentioned this 'how far back do you go' issue long before it actually came in. Every decision and incident is completely dependent on everything else that has gone before so it might not be long until there's a dispute about a goal because the referee gave a shy on the halfway line the wrong way in the lead-up to it. It won't stop me being furious when something big goes against my team, but on the whole I'm very glad it isn't being used in games I go to.
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 Re: VAR - A Disaster so Far...☹
Topic Originator: kelty_par  
Date:   Mon 11 Nov 16:06

There was a goal scored at the weekend where a corner was given instead of a goal kick (maybe the Burnley game or something?) and I was quite surprised that the Match of the Day pundits didn't make more of the fact that it was a "clear and obvious error" which isn't currently something that gets checked by the VAR. I rather suspect that it wasn't laboured because it was Burnley and not Man City, Liberpool, Tottenham or Man Utd that was affected.
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 Re: VAR - A Disaster so Far...☹
Topic Originator: londonparsfan  
Date:   Mon 11 Nov 16:20

Yeah I disagree with the limitations on VAR for that. You can check most corner/throw in decisions in seconds but corners and throw ins fall outside of the scope of VAR reviews just now.

Having those reviews should give more correct decisions and should also limit the number of times the scenario Socks just described should happen. It's only a matter of time before a goal is scored from an incorrect throw in and what happens then?

Post Edited (Mon 11 Nov 16:20)
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 Re: VAR - A Disaster so Far...☹
Topic Originator: Buspasspar  
Date:   Mon 11 Nov 18:52


Neil Swarbrick rates VAR 7/10


https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/50380641
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 Re: VAR - A Disaster so Far...☹
Topic Originator: londonparsfan  
Date:   Mon 11 Nov 19:04

"It is understood the accuracy of decision making around key incidents, such as goals, red cards and penalties, has increased from 82% last season to above 90% this term."

This statement just shows how many decisions were wrong previously and why VAR is needed but it also shows why folk are frustrated at the system. The accuracy rate should be far higher than it is even allowing for human error.
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 Re: VAR - A Disaster so Far...☹
Topic Originator: londonparsfan  
Date:   Mon 11 Nov 19:05

Oh and thanks for putting that up I hadn't seen it.
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 Re: VAR - A Disaster so Far...☹
Topic Originator: parathletic  
Date:   Mon 11 Nov 19:23

I'm not sure how they quantify the percentage of correct decisions-does it take into account decisions that should have been made and weren't or is it simply a percentage of decisions that were made? David Luiz gave away a stonewall foul that was denied after watching VAR-I'm presuming the powers that be class that as a correct decision when it clearly wasn't. Unless some sort of review panel then goes back and looks at that and then decides it was incorrect I don't see how they can come up with these figures.Like the system itself maybe if there was more transparency around those figures I would be more likely to believe them.
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 Re: VAR - A Disaster so Far...☹
Topic Originator: londonparsfan  
Date:   Mon 11 Nov 19:27

That's a fair point actually. I'd taken it to be that there was a review panel that reviews these and would have considered that an error but there is still a lack of transparency.
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 Re: VAR - A Disaster so Far...☹
Topic Originator: Buspasspar  
Date:   Thu 14 Nov 17:35

Referees' chief Mike Riley has told Premier League clubs that "improvement is required" with the video assistant referee system.

The technology has caused frustration and controversy since its introduction at the start of the season.

At a meeting on Thursday, Riley gave a full appraisal of VAR with clubs discussing their "grave concerns".

The Premier League has promised to improve VAR's consistency and speed and increase communication with fans.

Riley apparently spoke for 2 hours ....is it just me .... how can technology be wrong ? ....surely it is the people who are using it that are at fault and not using it properly ?..... Looking at it logically it would appear that the the refs who are incompetent in real time are just as incompetent in slow mo replay time as well
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 Re: VAR - A Disaster so Far...☹
Topic Originator: JTH123  
Date:   Thu 14 Nov 18:13

The main problem is that the handball rule is a joke.
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 Re: VAR - A Disaster so Far...☹
Topic Originator: ft media  
Date:   Thu 14 Nov 18:30

When the VAR is taking 4 minutes to make a decision, that means in my mind that they are having a personal opinion, not a matter of fact decision.

The lines they use look amateur much like the way it is being implemented. If you can't tell within 10 to 15 seconds, there should be a benefit of the doubt to the striker.. after all it's an entertainment business.
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 Re: VAR - A Disaster so Far...☹
Topic Originator: GG Riva  
Date:   Fri 15 Nov 08:20

Quote:

ft media, Thu 14 Nov 18:30

When the VAR is taking 4 minutes to make a decision, that means in my mind that they are having a personal opinion, not a matter of fact decision.

The lines they use look amateur much like the way it is being implemented. If you can't tell within 10 to 15 seconds, there should be a benefit of the doubt to the striker.. after all it's an entertainment business.


The issue is that VAR is often subjective and not clear cut, like goal line technology.

FIFA did issue a directive, some years ago, that referees should give the benefit of any doubt to the attacking side but I don't think referees have ever truly bought into it. Much easier to give the benefit of the doubt to the defending side as it gets forgotten about far more easily.

An offside goal, allowed to stand, will inevitably cause the match officials much more grief than a marginal one that is disallowed,.



Not your average Sunday League player.
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