DAFC.net
Home 18 September 2020 
 Post Message  |  Top of Board  |  Go to Topic  |  Search  |  Twitter Updates  |  Log In   Forum Rules  |  Newer Topic  |  Older Topic  |  end 
[ please login to use the Like feature ]
 Foreign players in Scotland
Topic Originator: OzPar  
Date:   Wed 11 Dec 00:55

The notion of Brexit got me thinking about how it is going to impact Scottish football once "the wall" goes up. Will there be limits on the number of foreign players? Who will be impacted most?

I was having a look at the various first-team squads in the Scottish Premier League and noticing that outside of the Old Firm (Celtic in particular) the number of foreign players seems to have dropped noticeably from the levels of 10 or 20 years ago. Most clubs these days seem to be focusing their squads on the home nations.

Whether this is down to the economics of the game in Scotland or part of a broader strategy, I don't know; maybe you do?

It got me thinking about how it all started.

There had been the odd foreigner playing in our leagues right from the early days. During the war, Morton famously signed English legends Sir Stanley Matthews and Tommy Lawton as guest players. Most teams had "guest" players at the time, but that was quite a coup.

Morton were to start what was known as the "Viking invasion" of Scotland in 1963 when they signed the Danish international goalkeeper Erik Sorensen. He later moved on to Rangers. Morton followed this by picking up Borge Thorup, Per Bartram and Preben Arentoft from Scandinavia and signing a powerful Danish centre-half John Madsen who later became a stalwart at Hibs.

Rangers got a real quality player when they picked up the Icelander Thorolf Beck in 1965. Another Scandinavian who became a legend at Ibrox was Kai Johansen who famously scored a winner in a cup final.

I don't remember Celtic having any prominent foreigners in their side in the '60s, though that didn't seem to impact their success in Europe. The first that I can recall is Johannes Edvaldsson and having just checked, I note that he was signed in 1975.

Dundee United were pretty active in the Scandinavian market in the Sixties. One standout signing of theirs was Orjann Persson, a majestic player; possibly the best Dane to grace Scottish grounds until Rangers signed Brian Laudrup. The Arabs also had Finn Dossing, a prolific goalscorer at the time.

Over the years, Denmark has provided Scotland with a wealth of footballing talent. Aberdeen had a brilliant striker in Henning Boel. Hearts' goalscorer when we beat them in the '68 cup final was Rene Moller. Our goalkeeper that day was fellow Dane, Bent Martin.

As I recall, the Pars weren't greatly active in the foreign markets until Jim Leishman came along. Jimmy Calderwood outdid him by some way, but since then foreign players at East End have been few and far between.

Some years ago, I spent a blissful day at the Central Library in Edinburgh with the desk in front of me piled with leather-bound volumes of The Scotsman newspaper covering the 1960s. I read all there was to read in that paper about the Pars during the Sixties.

There were a couple of snippets that I remember from that investigation.

One was that after the Slovan Bratislava game, Dunfermline had made enquiries about signing the Capkovic twins. One of them, who played on the left-wing, was absolutely outstanding that night we played them at EEP. Much as I loved Hughie Robertson playing on our left-wing, I would gladly have swapped him for that guy.

The other story was perhaps even more intriguing. My memory is dimmed, but I know that read an article that day about the Pars trialling a couple of Brazilians, sometime in the 1963-65 period I think. The story basically said they had come to EEP and turned out to be rubbish. There was more than a hint that we had been the victim of a scam.

I wonder, does anyone have any more light to cast on this incident?
[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: Foreign players in Scotland
Topic Originator: GG Riva  
Date:   Wed 11 Dec 07:20

I'm fairly certain that one of the Brazilians you refer to was Chico Filho and he turned out for the Pars in a 3-1 win over Morton at Cappielow. He might have been the first black player to play in a Scottish league game.

A friend of mine who was at the game said Filho was the best player on the park, but this came up on here a few years back and others who were at the game said my pal was havering. He died 10 years ago so I couldn't check this with him, but I'm minded to think that if he'd been that good the Pars would have tried to sign him.

Eta. No idea who the other player was. The only other Brazilian I know who turned out for the Pars was Sergio Duarte, but that was many years later and he definitely wasn't what you might expect from a Brazilian footballer.



Not your average Sunday League player.


Post Edited (Wed 11 Dec 07:23)
[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: Foreign players in Scotland
Topic Originator: AJ27  
Date:   Wed 11 Dec 07:27

How can you have forgotten Edinho GG? - if memory serves he payed in the infamous game a Tynecastle when we conceded 7 - it felt like every time Hearts scored Calderwood took off a defender and brought on another forward - thankfully we ran out of subs.
[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: Foreign players in Scotland
Topic Originator: GG Riva  
Date:   Wed 11 Dec 07:55

Quote:

AJ27, Wed 11 Dec 07:27

How can you have forgotten Edinho GG? - if memory serves he payed in the infamous game a Tynecastle when we conceded 7 - it felt like every time Hearts scored Calderwood took off a defender and brought on another forward - thankfully we ran out of subs.


Ah, Edinho. Sometimes the human brain will completely erase particularly painful memories, AJ. Thanks for reminding me.....☹



Not your average Sunday League player.
[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: Foreign players in Scotland
Topic Originator: Buspasspar  
Date:   Wed 11 Dec 08:27

AJ67 I was at that hearts game :-( Think we were one down when J C took the first defender off and put an extra striker on ..... we all know what happened after that
[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: Foreign players in Scotland
Topic Originator: Playup_Pompey  
Date:   Wed 11 Dec 08:50

different Era, Edinho played and scored putting us ahead only to go on and lose2-1 at tynecastle in 98.

the 7-1 game came 3 years later in 2001 and despite the thought we had quite a defensive line up with 7 players who could play along the back line.
Ruitenbeek,
McGroarty,
Doesburg,
Ferguson,
Skinner,
Skerla,
Crawford,
Scott Thomson
Dair,
Nicholson,
Tod.

Subs: Scott Y Thomson, Bullen, Moss, Mason, Dijkhuizen.





Post Edited (Wed 11 Dec 09:58)
[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: Foreign players in Scotland
Topic Originator: GG Riva  
Date:   Wed 11 Dec 09:05

Quote:

Playup_Pompey, Wed 11 Dec 08:50

different Era, Edinho played and scored putting us ahead only to go on and lose2-1 at tynecastle in 98.

the 7-1 game came 3 years later in 2001 and despite the thought we had quite a defensive line up with 7 players who could play along the back line.
Ruitenbeek,
McGroarty,
Doesburg,
Ferguson,
Skinner,
Skerla,
Crawford,
Scott Thomson
Dair,
Nicholson,
Tod.


I wondered about AJ27's post. Wasn't it Youssef Rossi and A. N. Other who were left as a back 2 in that game? Edinho was quite decent wasn't he? Rossi was top class but unfortunately, his temperament wasn't.



Not your average Sunday League player.
[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: Foreign players in Scotland
Topic Originator: TAFKA_Super_Petrie  
Date:   Wed 11 Dec 09:23

Edinho was signed the same say as David Graham from Rangers, loan/free for a guy with a half decent pedigree in lower english leagues and 200k for a youngster who'd done next to nothing. Major money for us at the time, arguably one of our worst ever signings too in terms of what we got in return for the outlay.

We couldn't score in a brothel that season; drew a ridiculous amount of games and ended up relegated having lost as many games as the team who finished 5th......crazy when you look at the table.

---------------------------------------------------------------


"People always talk about Ronaldinho and magic, but I didn't see him today. I saw Henrik Larsson; that's where the magic was."
[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: Foreign players in Scotland
Topic Originator: OzPar  
Date:   Wed 11 Dec 09:24

After seeing GG's comments, I Googled "Dunfermline" and "Chico Filho" and came up with this gem...

http://www.parsreview.org/throwback/sammer-looks-back-part-2

Good old sammer has done it again. No mention of the second player, but I am pretty sure that there was. Perhaps he never have got as far as a game and was rejected at Humbug Park.

I wasn't aware of this Pars Review website. Looks like I have a bit of enjoyable reading ahead of me over the next few nights.

:)
[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: Foreign players in Scotland
Topic Originator: wee eck  
Date:   Wed 11 Dec 09:29

Re the opening post, Henning Boel, who played for Aberdeen, wasn't a striker he was a defender. According to wikipedia he scored 2 goals in 105 appearances for the Dons.

Was the other Brazilian at Dunfermine called something like Alexander Gabriella? I don't think he ever played a game for us.
[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: Foreign players in Scotland
Topic Originator: veteraneastender  
Date:   Wed 11 Dec 09:47

Chico Filo was mince in his debut at Cappielow, it was opening league game of 1964-65 season.

The newspapers would have said he didn’t impress - fans where less diplomatic !!!

His one and only appearance I think.

Surprised that Oz omitted Bent Martin.

Big Jock signed him for Celtic from Aarhus, Denmark,(his home town club) after outstanding performances in both legs of a ECWC tie in 1966.

We all know what followed.

Incidentally his daughter Camilla was a world champion Badminton player and Olympic silver medalist.
[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: Foreign players in Scotland
Topic Originator: AJ27  
Date:   Wed 11 Dec 09:55

Thanks Playup Pompey - memory not great these days 😩
[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: Foreign players in Scotland
Topic Originator: OzPar  
Date:   Wed 11 Dec 10:27

<<Surprised that Oz omitted Bent Martin.>>


I didn't. He gets a mention. Read the post again, VEE...

:)



<<Re the opening post, Henning Boel, who played for Aberdeen, wasn't a striker he was a defender. According to wikipedia he scored 2 goals in 105 appearances for the Dons.>>


Sorry, wee eck, you are correct. My brain was thinking about Rene Moller as I typed that. Sadly, that is one of the effects that I have found since I had a small stroke a year or so ago; my brain doesn't coordinate so well. I would ask you to make allowances now and again.

:)


<<Was the other Brazilian at Dunfermine called something like Alexander Gabriella? I don't think he ever played a game for us.>>


It might have been. I don't remember the names of the players involved, though it does look like Chico is one of the candidates.
[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: Foreign players in Scotland
Topic Originator: Stanza  
Date:   Wed 11 Dec 10:35

Quote:

GG Riva, Wed 11 Dec 07:20

one of the Brazilians you refer to was Chico Filho and he turned out for the Pars in a 3-1 win over Morton at Cappielow. He might have been the first black player to play in a Scottish league .


A long long time after Andrew Watson!
Although to be completely fair, Watson played for QP before the Scottish League started.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Watson_(footballer,_born_1856)

_________________

Support Dunfermline Athletic Disabled Supporters' Club (it will cost you nothing) when you shop online with one of 4000 retailers and insurance firms etc
http://www.easyfundraising.org.uk/causes/dadsc


Post Edited (Wed 11 Dec 10:39)
[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: Foreign players in Scotland
Topic Originator: AJ27  
Date:   Wed 11 Dec 10:46

In the 1950s I believe Gil Heron was the first black player to play for Celtic - he was the father of legendary musician Gil Scott Heron.
[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: Foreign players in Scotland
Topic Originator: veteraneastender  
Date:   Wed 11 Dec 13:05

"I didn't. He gets a mention. Read the post again, VEE..."

Oops, Mea Culp etc.

Bent played one game for Celtic - a Glasgow Cup match V Queens Park I think.
[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: Foreign players in Scotland
Topic Originator: GG Riva  
Date:   Wed 11 Dec 14:33

Quote:

veteraneastender, Wed 11 Dec 09:47

Chico Filo was mince in his debut at Cappielow, it was opening league game of 1964-65 season.

The newspapers would have said he didn’t impress - fans where less diplomatic !!!

I've heard a similar assessment from a number of sources. I can't understand it, VEE. My late friend was tee total. Were you at that game, yourself?



Not your average Sunday League player.
[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: Foreign players in Scotland
Topic Originator: Mon-pa  
Date:   Wed 11 Dec 14:56

Did I miss the mention of Bent Martin (GK) for the pars?

ARTY
[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: Foreign players in Scotland
Topic Originator: sammer  
Date:   Wed 11 Dec 16:05

Chico Filho had a more than decent career in the French second division and later was a highly respected youth coach at Man Utd for some years under Alex Ferguson. Pity they didn't combine so well that day at Cappielow.
I remember the other Brazilian as being called something like Gabriella but he never played a game, although I think he had made the original 40 man Brazil squad for the 1962 World Cup. So I don't think we were scammed; more a case of the players just not been suited to the Scottish game I would think.

Dundee Utd picked up some very good Scandinavian players and two not mentioned were Lennart Wing and Finn Seeman. Seeman was a tall right winger who scored against Barcelona and I saw him tear Davie Holt apart at Tynecastle in a 3-0 cup victory. Wing, who was a wing half as it happens, scored a very good goal at EEP in the mid 60s when he drove down the left at the Town End and thrashed a shot across the keeper that flew in off the far post.

Jan Capkovic was very quick as he showed when scoring at EEP and scored a good goal at Hampden when Scotland knocked out the Czechs in 1977. His brother, a twin I think, played as a defender and was part of the Czech team which won the European Championships in 1976.

Interesting that South Africans were not generally considered 'foreigners' when they played in the UK. Johnny Hubbard and, briefly, Don Kichenbrand, did well for Rangers in the mid 50s although the latter was advised to stay quiet about his religious affiliation.
[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: Foreign players in Scotland
Topic Originator: GG Riva  
Date:   Wed 11 Dec 17:32

Quote:

sammer, Wed 11 Dec 16:05

"Chico Filho had a more than decent career in the French second division and later was a highly respected youth coach at Man Utd for some years under Alex Ferguson. Pity they didn't combine so well that day at Cappielow.
I remember the other Brazilian as being called something like Gabriella but he never played a game, although I think he had made the original 40 man Brazil squad for the 1962 World Cup. So I don't think we were scammed; more a case of the players just not been suited to the Scottish game I would think."

Italian clubs were most reluctant to sign any Brazilians in the 60s, as they all seemed to succumb to the "saudade", a kind of home sickness. Argentinians appeared to cope much better for some reason - perhaps because many had Italian roots.

"Jan Capkovic was very quick as he showed when scoring at EEP and scored a good goal at Hampden when Scotland knocked out the Czechs in 1977. His brother, a twin I think, played as a defender and was part of the Czech team which won the European Championships in 1976."

Am I right in thinking that the Czechoslovakia side which played in a very tough group including England, the WC holders and Brazil, the eventual winners of Mexico 70, was peppered with players from Slovan Bratislava and gave a good account of themselves against both?



Not your average Sunday League player.


Post Edited (Wed 11 Dec 17:35)
[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: Foreign players in Scotland
Topic Originator: veteraneastender  
Date:   Wed 11 Dec 17:43

"I've heard a similar assessment from a number of sources. I can't understand it, VEE. My late friend was tee total. Were you at that game, yourself?"

No, on holiday - my pal's Dad was there and was very scathing about Chico's performance.

Turns out I was a season too early with my original thoughts - it was actually 1965-66 that he appeared at Morton.

I had a vague idea that he was pulled at half time - if so, that would sync, as that was the first season substitutes were allowed in Scotland - cue Sammer for confirmation.

He never played again for the Pars - says it all really.
[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: Foreign players in Scotland
Topic Originator: parathletic  
Date:   Wed 11 Dec 17:51

Went on to become the manager of Mauritius-sounds like a decent gig!



Post Edited (Wed 11 Dec 17:52)
[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: Foreign players in Scotland
Topic Originator: red-star-par  
Date:   Wed 11 Dec 20:01

I guess Alex Ferguson must have been a team mate here, and so would have known of him when he later got him in a Manchester United. Pretty modest playing career but must have been a decent coach to be at Clairefontaine for 29 years, overseeing the likes of Papin and Cantona. Also acted as translator for Cristiano Ronaldo
[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: Foreign players in Scotland
Topic Originator: sammer  
Date:   Wed 11 Dec 21:45

When big John McLaughlin left at the start of 1965-66 we were short of a number 9. Ian Hunter was tried but although he was quick and useful enough was not considered the answer. Chico Filho was a wildcard who only got his one lamentable (as reported) game against Morton.

However the worst performance by a Pars number nine came a few weeks later when Hugh Maxwell turned out to lead the attack against Dundee Utd. It was dismal to the point that Pars supporters around me were jeering his every attempted move and since Maxwell was sporting a scrub haircut at the time a fan shouted, 'I've seen a brush play better!'

The next week Jim Fleming, a cover outside right, was put in the number 9 jersey and the goals flowed like they have never done before or since. That late hot autumn of 1965.
[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: Foreign players in Scotland
Topic Originator: veteraneastender  
Date:   Thu 12 Dec 10:37

Maxwell was a strange looking footballer due to his humpy back.

Yet he played for several clubs, including the Pars and Celtic, and had a decent scoring tally.

He very nearly equalled Jim McGrory's Scottish League scoring record of 8 goals in a single game after he had netted 7 with nearly 20 minutes left to play, on his midweek debut for Falkirk v Clyde.

Jim Fleming, an unsung hero, had shirt number 9 but he generally played on the right and set up a whean of goals for Sir Fergie.
[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: Foreign players in Scotland
Topic Originator: da_no_1  
Date:   Thu 12 Dec 11:24

Sergio Duarte stayed next door to my cousin who would occasionally see him kick a ball with his pre-school age daughter in their front garden.

He confirmed the daughter was the better player of the two.

"Some days will stay a 1000 years, some pass like the flash of a spark"
[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: Foreign players in Scotland
Topic Originator: LochgellyAlbert  
Date:   Thu 12 Dec 12:56

Quote:

veteraneastender, Thu 12 Dec 10:37

Maxwell was a strange looking footballer due to his humpy back.

Yet he played for several clubs, including the Pars and Celtic, and had a decent scoring tally.

He very nearly equalled Jim McGrory's Scottish League scoring record of 8 goals in a single game after he had netted 7 with nearly 20 minutes left to play, on his midweek debut for Falkirk v Clyde.

Jim Fleming, an unsung hero, had shirt number 9 but he generally played on the right and set up a whean of goals for Sir Fergie.


Thought Maxwell was more pigeon chested?🦅🦅🦅
[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: Foreign players in Scotland
Topic Originator: OzPar  
Date:   Thu 12 Dec 13:08

I quite liked Hugh Maxwell, though I remember him mainly in his Falkirk days where he did quite well. I have a recollection of him scoring a very fast goal - something like 8 seconds after kick-off - when he played for Celtic. He had a shock of ginger hair, was tall, skinny as a rake and looked like a Teddy Boy...

:)
[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: Foreign players in Scotland
Topic Originator: GG Riva  
Date:   Thu 12 Dec 13:42

Quote:

LochgellyAlbert, Thu 12 Dec 12:56

Quote:

veteraneastender, Thu 12 Dec 10:37

Maxwell was a strange looking footballer due to his humpy back.

Yet he played for several clubs, including the Pars and Celtic, and had a decent scoring tally.

He very nearly equalled Jim McGrory's Scottish League scoring record of 8 goals in a single game after he had netted 7 with nearly 20 minutes left to play, on his midweek debut for Falkirk v Clyde.

Jim Fleming, an unsung hero, had shirt number 9 but he generally played on the right and set up a whean of goals for Sir Fergie.


Thought Maxwell was more pigeon chested?🦅🦅🦅


No, Lo'gelly, VEE is correct. You wouldn't have wanted him to have a humpback AND a pigeon chest? I always thought Pat Gardner had a bit of a pigeon chest. Whenever he tried to chest the ball down it invariably bounced off at different angles. ☺



Not your average Sunday League player.
[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: Foreign players in Scotland
Topic Originator: LochgellyAlbert  
Date:   Thu 12 Dec 18:22

Maybe thinking of Jim McLean the centre half!
Getting auld ye ken!😎
[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: Foreign players in Scotland
Topic Originator: GG Riva  
Date:   Thu 12 Dec 18:41

Quote:

LochgellyAlbert, Thu 12 Dec 18:22

Maybe thinking of Jim McLean the centre half!
Getting auld ye ken!😎


Aye, Jim McLean. I might give you that. You're getting auld alright. Even aulder than me. Tosh McFarlane was at the Partick game and was asking for you. I can put you in touch with him if you want.



Not your average Sunday League player.
[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: Foreign players in Scotland
Topic Originator: LochgellyAlbert  
Date:   Thu 12 Dec 21:15

Hi GG, I was in touch with Tosh by e-mail, sent him a picture of the 1966/67 Woodmill School team.

A great team on paper but some crap results!🤣🤣🤣
[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: Foreign players in Scotland
Topic Originator: GG Riva  
Date:   Fri 13 Dec 08:37

Quote:

LochgellyAlbert, Thu 12 Dec 21:15

Hi GG, I was in touch with Tosh by e-mail, sent him a picture of the 1966/67 Woodmill School team.

A great team on paper but some crap results!🤣🤣🤣


Ah, I couldn't remember if you had his email. H was only over for a week and is back in Canada now. I believe they're coming back at some point to scatter his father in law's ashes, as he died on the day they came over.....

Maybe you can make arrangements to see him then?



Not your average Sunday League player.


Post Edited (Fri 13 Dec 08:37)
[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: Foreign players in Scotland
Topic Originator: LochgellyAlbert  
Date:   Fri 13 Dec 15:57

Let me know when he's over GG, only know where a few of the old team are!😎🏁🏁
[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: Foreign players in Scotland
Topic Originator: ParsPryde  
Date:   Fri 13 Dec 16:30

So who is the Pars "Most Successful Johnny Foreigner" (both for time at Pars and afterwards?)

I'd guess our best "during" (that I have seen since 82) would be Kosma?
Unfortunately it went a bit Pear shaped for him when he left for Liverpool. Didn't fit in and moved on.

Who would be the "after Pars" choices though?

==============
Have your say, Join the PST Today

Proud to be a Par

"If you don't want to wear the jersey, stay in the dressing room": Norrie McCathie
[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: Foreign players in Scotland
Topic Originator: wee eck  
Date:   Fri 13 Dec 16:46

Sol Bamba? He did very well for himself at both club and international level.
[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: Foreign players in Scotland
Topic Originator: the saline hill puma  
Date:   Fri 13 Dec 16:50

Skerla
[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: Foreign players in Scotland
Topic Originator: OzPar  
Date:   Fri 13 Dec 17:01

Jack de Gier.

His visit with us was short but very sweet.

:)
[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Top of Board  |  Forum List  |  Threaded View   Forum Rules  |  Newer Topic  |  Older Topic  |  end 


 Forum List  |  Need a Login? Register Here 
 User Login
 User Name:
 Password:
 Remember my login:
   
 Forgot Your Password?
Enter your email address or user name below and a new password will be sent to the email address associated with your profile.
Security : type 'pars' in the box:
email:
© 2020 -- DAFC.net