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 Audited accounts?
Topic Originator: dover par  
Date:   Wed 22 Jan 18:18

Hope you guys can help...

Still no accounts 8 months after year end, how long do the club get to publish them?

When was the last AGM for Dafc ltd or Pars Utd? Normally Nov I recall.

"Pressure is something you feel when you don't know what the hell you're doing."
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 Re: Audited accounts?
Topic Originator: DunfyDave  
Date:   Wed 22 Jan 18:28

Must usually be filed within 9mths of financial year end.

DunfyDave
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 Re: Audited accounts?
Topic Originator: dover par  
Date:   Wed 22 Jan 18:48

Next few weeks then,finally get to see our losses.

"Pressure is something you feel when you don't know what the hell you're doing."
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 Re: Audited accounts?
Topic Originator: back oh the net  
Date:   Wed 22 Jan 20:09

that so you can stick the boot in further to the BOD?

Come on ye pars ⚽️
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 Re: Audited accounts?
Topic Originator: Frank Butchers LoveHandles  
Date:   Wed 22 Jan 20:11

Most companies have 9 months after year end so suspect they will be out shortly.

Awight Pat!
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 Re: Audited accounts?
Topic Originator: parsfan97  
Date:   Wed 22 Jan 20:27

How do some folk struggle to accept the biggest loss of last year was the sacking of AJ and Clark? And who’s fault was that to give a 2 year deal? Reason we had to go with reduced budget this year is the boards fault
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 Re: Audited accounts?
Topic Originator: londonparsfan  
Date:   Wed 22 Jan 20:40

Quote:

parsfan97, Wed 22 Jan 20:27

How do some folk struggle to accept the biggest loss of last year was the sacking of AJ and Clark? And who’s fault was that to give a 2 year deal? Reason we had to go with reduced budget this year is the boards fault


What was that loss exactly?
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 Re: Audited accounts?
Topic Originator: rossmcno1  
Date:   Wed 22 Jan 20:42

Financial he’s on about.

As for kicking the BOD, criticism is expected at times, but let’s remember they are all volunteers, who if they were to quit or be replaced, they would do so by....more volunteers.

I do think we desperately need a supporters forum and one is well overdue.



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 Re: Audited accounts?
Topic Originator: londonparsfan  
Date:   Wed 22 Jan 20:42

I know but I was interested to know exactly what the amount was.
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 Re: Audited accounts?
Topic Originator: BigJPar  
Date:   Wed 22 Jan 20:46

Quote:

dover par, Wed 22 Jan 18:48

Next few weeks then,finally get to see our losses.


Sounds like you've been waiting with anticipation.
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 Re: Audited accounts?
Topic Originator: parsfan97  
Date:   Wed 22 Jan 22:17

Around the £70k mark to get rid of they 2
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 Re: Audited accounts?
Topic Originator: londonparsfan  
Date:   Wed 22 Jan 23:00

Has that been confirmed anywhere or is that a guess?

How does it compare the cost of all the operations the club had to pay for as well if we're saying it's the biggest loss?
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 Re: Audited accounts?
Topic Originator: Grant  
Date:   Wed 22 Jan 23:45

We made a massive song and dance when we posted our first profit in a while that we were the first club in Scotland to post our accounts.


Imagine the outroaor when the post that we've posted a loss, plus we are doing shocking in the league and our fanbase wants our manager change.




I wonder why we've not given the results...
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 Re: Audited accounts?
Topic Originator: da_no_1  
Date:   Thu 23 Jan 00:22

I really don't think anyone outside .net would give a tom tit

"Some days will stay a 1000 years, some pass like the flash of a spark"
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 Re: Audited accounts?
Topic Originator: JamesAndrew74  
Date:   Thu 23 Jan 10:09

Pretty sure they are un-audited accounts anyway. If you see Inverness, Falkirk and Partick running at near million pound losses it amazes me that were not. That's not even mentioning Utd and Dundee......
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 Re: Audited accounts?
Topic Originator: jake89  
Date:   Thu 23 Jan 16:38

I think it's a case that we CAN'T run into the millions in losses. We don't have the credit to let things get that bad. This is one of the reasons we're not doing a Dundee Utd despite having a sizeable income and support.

And I wouldn't want us to be a Dundee Utd. Even with going up I would expect they'll continue to run a loss. They look like us in the late 90s. The owner will quickly realise the SPL crowds don't make millions.
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 Re: Audited accounts?
Topic Originator: BigJPar  
Date:   Thu 23 Jan 23:22

Quote:

jake89, Thu 23 Jan 16:38

I think it's a case that we CAN'T run into the millions in losses. We don't have the credit to let things get that bad. This is one of the reasons we're not doing a Dundee Utd despite having a sizeable income and support.

And I wouldn't want us to be a Dundee Utd. Even with going up I would expect they'll continue to run a loss. They look like us in the late 90s. The owner will quickly realise the SPL crowds don't make millions.


You could most certainly still run into debt by signing contracts you couldn't fulfill.
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 Re: Audited accounts?
Topic Originator: MonThePars1885  
Date:   Fri 24 Jan 07:50

Quote:

JamesAndrew74, Thu 23 Jan 10:09

Pretty sure they are un-audited accounts anyway.


Nope. The accounts have definitely been audited in previous years. Don't see why this would be any different this year as you need a certain number of years of audited accounts to gain entry into UEFA competitions; I know that's a bit out of our reach currently but you never know.
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 Re: Audited accounts?
Topic Originator: JamesAndrew74  
Date:   Fri 24 Jan 11:16

It also has nothing to do with credit. If you suffer low crowds and your costs go up unexpectedly and income drops (cups etc) then a significant loss occurs
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 Re: Audited accounts?
Topic Originator: LochgellyAlbert  
Date:   Sun 26 Jan 10:56

Interesting stats from our neebours!

https://www.fifetoday.co.uk/sport/football/raith-rovers-agm-round-up-1-5079961

Post Edited (Sun 26 Jan 10:57)
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 Re: Audited accounts?
Topic Originator: ipswichpar  
Date:   Sun 26 Jan 11:05

Quote:

JamesAndrew74, Fri 24 Jan 11:16

It also has nothing to do with credit. If you suffer low crowds and your costs go up unexpectedly and income drops (cups etc) then a significant loss occurs


It does....if you don't have any credit or someone providing a loan you will run out of cash and will cease trading.
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 Re: Audited accounts?
Topic Originator: wetherby  
Date:   Sun 26 Jan 11:16

Interesting looking at Rovers headline figures , they have made significant losses the last two years as a result of a very onerous cost base.
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 Re: Audited accounts?
Topic Originator: The Roy Barry Fan Club  
Date:   Sun 26 Jan 13:15

Perhaps as a near forty year qualified Chartered Accountant, I can be of some assistance in respect of questions and misunderstandings.

Company accounts must be filed with Companies House within 9 months. This means by 29 February for most clubs who tend to have 31 May as a year end. In my experience most companies tend to file in the ninth month, and football is no exception. In our league, I have noted that Inverness have filed, and this shows a near £900k loss for the year to 31 May 2019. Falkirk have also filed and they were in the Championship last year. They booked a loss of close to £700k, Dundee United have not filed for 2019, but made a £3.7m loss in the year to 31 May 2018, and have noted the liklihood of continuing losses at this sort of level. Dundee have been making losses, and whilst I would be surprised if they were at the same level as Dundee United, I would not be shocked if they were in seven figures. No doubt there will be others coming in in February.

DAFC was very often late with its filings pre 2013. If I had been preparing the accounts (I didn't) I would have been pretty proud to have started to file in November of each year, which has been the case in the last years. In autumn 2019, our auditors withdrew from the audit market. This is becoming very common for smaller provincial firms faced with the increasing burden of compliance regulation. It is a common moan at ICAS (Institute of Chartered Accountants of Scotland). This means that the Club will have been faced with finding new auditors, and the winter is the busy season for audits. This will have caused delay. It should also be noted that there was a paid Finance Director in the Masterton era, whilst now we operate with volunteers who cost us precisely nothing.

I wouldn't get your hopes up in terms of learning more from the A/Cs (other than a total loss figure) than the Board statement in May and the explanation given in the Supporters' Council meeting at the end of that month. Precisely NO club gives detailed P&L breakdowns (for obvious reasons), and the information given last year is far more detailed than most clubs give. The Board statement is available on the Club website (COWS) in the May archived News, and the Minutes of the Supporters' Council are also there under the 'Fans' label.

The suggestion that the loss stems from the cost of dismissing the management team after 8 months of a two year term is in my judgement misplaced. To amplify, there will be far more pertinent causes as covered in the Board statement. The background is three years of small profits in the years to 31 May 2016, 2017 and 2018. If we take 2017/2018 as the base year and then look at likely movements from there according to what the Board have said:

1. Additional budget to Allan Johnstone (six figures)
2. Reduced funding due to position in league (six figures)
3. Reduced cash gate and hospitality due to poor season (six figures)
4. 15 medical operations compared with two or three (six figures)
5. Cost of changing management team (five figures) -- specifically, any 2 year employment contract will have a clause which covers dismissal, and this will be considerably less than the remaining term of the contract (16 months). [As to whether Johnstone should have got a 2 year contract I would merely note that we won the 1st Division in his first year, and then ran 5th and then 4th (play-offs) in his second and third years.]

I note the Rovers £200k loss for 2019, which follows a £400k loss in 2018. The good news for them is that the £1.4m debt is to directors past and present. The bad news is that there is mention of a repayment schedule.

Hope that is of some help.



Post Edited (Sun 26 Jan 13:17)
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 Re: Audited accounts?
Topic Originator: Westies squint kicks  
Date:   Sun 26 Jan 13:32

The Roy Barry Fan Club wrote:

> Perhaps as a near forty year qualified Chartered Accountant, I
> can be of some assistance in respect of questions and
> misunderstandings.
>
> Company accounts must be filed with Companies House within 9
> months. This means by 29 February for most clubs who tend to
> have 31 May as a year end. In my experience most companies
> tend to file in the ninth month, and football is no exception.
> In our league, I have noted that Inverness have filed, and this
> shows a near £900k loss for the year to 31 May 2019. Falkirk
> have also filed and they were in the Championship last year.
> They booked a loss of close to £700k, Dundee United have not
> filed for 2019, but made a £3.7m loss in the year to 31 May
> 2018, and have noted the liklihood of continuing losses at this
> sort of level. Dundee have been making losses, and whilst I
> would be surprised if they were at the same level as Dundee
> United, I would not be shocked if they were in seven figures.
> No doubt there will be others coming in in February.
>
> DAFC was very often late with its filings pre 2013. If I had
> been preparing the accounts (I didn't) I would have been pretty
> proud to have started to file in November of each year, which
> has been the case in the last years. In autumn 2019, our
> auditors withdrew from the audit market. This is becoming very
> common for smaller provincial firms faced with the increasing
> burden of compliance regulation. It is a common moan at ICAS
> (Institute of Chartered Accountants of Scotland). This means
> that the Club will have been faced with finding new auditors,
> and the winter is the busy season for audits. This will have
> caused delay. It should also be noted that there was a paid
> Finance Director in the Masterton era, whilst now we operate
> with volunteers who cost us precisely nothing.
>
> I wouldn't get your hopes up in terms of learning more from
> the A/Cs (other than a total loss figure) than the Board
> statement in May and the explanation given in the Supporters'
> Council meeting at the end of that month. Precisely NO club
> gives detailed P&L breakdowns (for obvious reasons), and the
> information given last year is far more detailed than most
> clubs give. The Board statement is available on the Club
> website (COWS) in the May archived News, and the Minutes of the
> Supporters' Council are also there under the 'Fans' label.
>
> The suggestion that the loss stems from the cost of dismissing
> the management team after 8 months of a two year term is in my
> judgement misplaced. To amplify, there will be far more
> pertinent causes as covered in the Board statement. The
> background is three years of small profits in the years to 31
> May 2016, 2017 and 2018. If we take 2017/2018 as the base year
> and then look at likely movements from there according to what
> the Board have said:
>
> 1. Additional budget to Allan Johnstone (six figures)
> 2. Reduced funding due to position in league (six figures)
> 3. Reduced cash gate and hospitality due to poor season (six
> figures)
> 4. 15 medical operations compared with two or three (six
> figures)
> 5. Cost of changing management team (five figures) --
> specifically, any 2 year employment contract will have a clause
> which covers dismissal, and this will be considerably less than
> the remaining term of the contract (16 months). [As to whether
> Johnstone should have got a 2 year contract I would merely note
> that we won the 1st Division in his first year, and then ran
> 5th and then 4th (play-offs) in his second and third years.]
>
> I note the Rovers £200k loss for 2019, which follows a £400k
> loss in 2018. The good news for them is that the £1.4m debt is
> to directors past and present. The bad news is that there is
> mention of a repayment schedule.
>
> Hope that is of some help.
>

>
> Post Edited (Sun 26 Jan 13:17)

Are you ES ?
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 Re: Audited accounts?
Topic Originator: OzPar  
Date:   Sun 26 Jan 13:35

Thanks for that detailed assessment, TRBFC. Hopefully, this will help to quieten down some of the more vociferous critics of our BoD. Outside of the very top levels, football is not a business to make money.

The round-up from the Rovers' AGM illustrates the impact of relegation from the Championship on the finances of a club that has a smaller infrastructure than ours.

I wouldn't like to contemplate the severity of our situation if we were to find ourselves going back down a division. It simply must be avoided at all costs.
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 Re: Audited accounts?
Topic Originator: The Roy Barry Fan Club  
Date:   Sun 26 Jan 13:36

Not sure who ES is? But no! Just a gnarled counter of beans...!
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 Re: Audited accounts?
Topic Originator: GG Riva  
Date:   Sun 26 Jan 13:46

Quote:

Westies squint kicks, Sun 26 Jan 13:32

Are you ES ?


Why do you need to know who TRBFC is in real life, Westie? Are his credentials not good enough for him to give us a professional opinion on the thread topic?

It doesn't bother me if folk know who I am, but some posters prefer to keep their identity private. Would you tell me who you are if I asked you on this forum?



Not your average Sunday League player.
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 Re: Audited accounts?
Topic Originator: Westies squint kicks  
Date:   Sun 26 Jan 13:52

GG Riva wrote:

>
Quote:

Westies squint kicks, Sun 26 Jan 13:32
>
> Are you ES ?

>
> Why do you need to know who TRBFC is in real life, Westie? Are
> his credentials not good enough for him to give us a
> professional opinion on the thread topic?
>
> It doesn't bother me if folk know who I am, but some posters
> prefer to keep their identity private. Would you tell me who
> you are if I asked you on this forum?
>
>


GG what a crabbit cant you are ,It was a highly informative post, I used initials so as to keep his identity private, we all sit behind a username and we probably know a lot more folk on here I was simply trying to establish if I knew him, try keeping to the thread , obviously still got the hump from the other thread.
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 Re: Audited accounts?
Topic Originator: The Roy Barry Fan Club  
Date:   Sun 26 Jan 13:53

I agree with you Oz -- but there are no guarantees in football as we all know.

Having said that, the transfer window remains open. Let's see what happens next week.
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 Re: Audited accounts?
Topic Originator: Grant  
Date:   Sun 26 Jan 13:55

Quote:

The Roy Barry Fan Club, Sun 26 Jan 13:15
. It should also be noted that there was a paid Finance Director in the Masterton era,
.


He/She fair dropped the ****** ball.
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 Re: Audited accounts?
Topic Originator: Stanza  
Date:   Sun 26 Jan 13:55

Excellent post, TRBFC.

_________________

Support Dunfermline Athletic Disabled Supporters' Club (it will cost you nothing) when you shop online with one of 4000 retailers and insurance firms etc
http://www.easyfundraising.org.uk/causes/dadsc
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 Re: Audited accounts?
Topic Originator: The Roy Barry Fan Club  
Date:   Sun 26 Jan 14:12

Grant: in all fairness, he might not have been making all the operational decisions.......?!? But I know what you mean!
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 Re: Audited accounts?
Topic Originator: Perkins  
Date:   Sun 26 Jan 14:12

"He/She fair dropped the ****** ball."


The FD can't stop the owners from doing what they want
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 Re: Audited accounts?
Topic Originator: SeasonedPar  
Date:   Sun 26 Jan 14:40

Thanks TRBFC. Very detailed explanation, and those eye watering losses from other clubs put things in perspective.
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 Re: Audited accounts?
Topic Originator: JamesAndrew74  
Date:   Sun 26 Jan 15:48

Quote:

SeasonedPar, Sun 26 Jan 14:40

Thanks TRBFC. Very detailed explanation, and those eye watering losses from other clubs put things in perspective.


Only if ours aren’t the same
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 Re: Audited accounts?
Topic Originator: GG Riva  
Date:   Sun 26 Jan 16:01

Quote:

Westies squint kicks, Sun 26 Jan 13:52

GG Riva wrote:

>
Quote:

Westies squint kicks, Sun 26 Jan 13:32
>
> Are you ES ?

>
> Why do you need to know who TRBFC is in real life, Westie? Are
> his credentials not good enough for him to give us a
> professional opinion on the thread topic?
>
> It doesn't bother me if folk know who I am, but some posters
> prefer to keep their identity private. Would you tell me who
> you are if I asked you on this forum?
>


GG what a crabbit cant you are ,It was a highly informative post, I used initials so as to keep his identity private, we all sit behind a username and we probably know a lot more folk on here I was simply trying to establish if I knew him, try keeping to the thread , obviously still got the hump from the other thread.


I wasn't being crabbit at all, Westie and I certainly haven't taken the hump from any other thread - cannae even mind what it was, tbh. I was just giving you a stern wigging for being a nosy bassa.... 😉

Using someone's initials could reveal his/her identity to others, or at least give them a big clue and put TRBFC in an embarrassing position. You'll have noticed you didn't get an answer to your question, which would perhaps suggest it wasn't welcome.

I know TRBFC. He/she is a top man/woman. I might know you, too. What are your initials so I can see if my hunch is correct?

Eta My initials are GG if that's any help.



Not your average Sunday League player.


Post Edited (Sun 26 Jan 16:55)
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 Re: Audited accounts?
Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks  
Date:   Sun 26 Jan 16:36

Might want to read the thread again GG......

Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd
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 Re: Audited accounts?
Topic Originator: GG Riva  
Date:   Sun 26 Jan 16:58

Quote:

The One Who Knocks, Sun 26 Jan 16:36

Might want to read the thread again GG......


Ah apologies, Westie. TRBFC did reply to you and I missed it. Maybe I was replying to your post at the same time. I'm kinda slow with just the one finger. ☹



Not your average Sunday League player.
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 Re: Audited accounts?
Topic Originator: Thaipar  
Date:   Sun 26 Jan 21:33

Quote:

GG Riva, Sun 26 Jan 16:58

Quote:

The One Who Knocks, Sun 26 Jan 16:36

Might want to read the thread again GG......


Ah apologies, Westie. TRBFC did reply to you and I missed it. Maybe I was replying to your post at the same time. I'm kinda slow with just the one finger. ☹


You can keep the bedroom talk for Mrs. GG 😂😂

Please don't book me Admin, it will ruin my life.
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 Re: Audited accounts?
Topic Originator: Paralex  
Date:   Mon 27 Jan 00:15

Getting back to the subject and being realistic about the wages we are able to pay our players for full time football, we don't really hack it as a very attractive financial proposition. I really hope our younger players are not ignoring the fact that their playing days will be over in about 10 years or so and they need gainful employment for the other 35 years of their working lives. Starting a new career in your early 30's could be problematic for many. Apart from Partick Thistle, I imagine the teams below us in the league probably pay their players less than we do because they are part time. I would imagine the teams above us, apart from Ayr Utd pay their players more, some very substantially more than we do.

Financial remuneration is not the only yardstick in a team's success but it would be assumed that by effective recruitment the better players would be attracted by a higher income to the clubs that pay the most. From that point of view Partick Thistle should be about second or third top and we should be about where we currently are. The rest of the teams are probably about where they should be.

We rightly get annoyed when we find ourselves losing at home to Alloa or Ayr Utd and seem not to be pulling out all the stops to turn the game around. Success can usually be bought but in some circumstances it doesn't work that way. Sometimes you just get a bunch of lads who are so full of passion for the game, who gel together and become a great team and remuneration has nothing to do with it. I suppose in our situation, that's what we are hoping for and who says it won't happen. I'm glad we are trying to build a sound financial base and that the Board have not reacted rashly to the dire run of 5 defeats in a row. It was great to see Kevin Nisbet run over to Steve Crawford after he scored because that signified that he has their respect. Maybe the players feel that they have let him down. I hope they do and I hope they continue to get their act together and take some confidence from the Dundee game.

Because Steve Crawford is a slightly understated guy doesn't make him a bad manager, the players seem to have real affection for him. I think financially we don't have too many options so we have to stick with him and he and the team, may yet emerge with some real success.
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 Re: Audited accounts?
Topic Originator: OzPar  
Date:   Mon 27 Jan 01:33

A good, well thought out post, Paralex. It is hard to argue with any of that.

I confess that towards the end of that five-game losing streak my patience with Stevie's management had pretty much expired. But having seen the way the team responded on Friday night, I am happy to join the fans who are prepared to see where he takes us at the end of the season.

Money will always have a huge influence on outcomes in football. While there are the occasional examples of teams getting promoted purely on merit (e.g. Livingston under David Hopkin), the clubs with the deepest pockets tend to be the ones who go up to the Premier.

United's failure to gain promotion three seasons running has ruined them financially. Even promotion this year will do little to service the debt levels that they are currently at. One is left to think that nothing short of a good run in Europe at some point in the next two or three years will save them from an inevitable financial meltdown.

If Dundee and Inverness fail to get promotion this year, then they are likely to be much weakened next season. And as long as Hearts don't come down, we shouldn't fear anyone else.

The course that our BoD has set is the most viable for a club of our size and status.

It is important to note that most of our key players are contracted through to the end of 2021. This allows Crawford the luxury of needing to search for a handful of targets in the summer, not a whole squad. I would bet that preparations for this are already underway.

It may not produce instant success, but if we fans can show a bit more patience than we have of late, perhaps by this time next season we might be witnessing the benefits of this canny approach.
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