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 Diego Maradona - C4 Film Documentary
Topic Originator: GG Riva  
Date:   Tue 17 Mar 19:58

A wee heads up about an excellent, warts and all, film documentary about the flawed little Argentinian footballing genius, on C4 at 9 pm, this coming Saturday - a welcome change from wall to wall coverage of that frigging virus!

For many older fans, Maradona, along with Pelè, is the greatest player of all time. With the greatest respect for Messi and Ronaldo, you have to wonder how they would have fared in an era when defenders were allowed two or three hits before the ref even thought about reaching for a yellow card. I watched the documentary on DVD recently and some of the "treatment " dished out to him, playing for Napoli in Serie A, has to be seen to be believed. How the refs could let it go on week after week, I'll never know.

Maradona captained a modest Argentina to a World Cup victory in 1986 and dragged them to the final 4 years later. With Napoli, who had 2 Italian Cup wins in their entire history before he arrived, Maradona won two Serie A titles and a UEFA Cup.



Not your average Sunday League player.


Post Edited (Thu 19 Mar 08:42)
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 Re: Diego Maradona
Topic Originator: 1985Par  
Date:   Tue 17 Mar 20:40

I saw this recently and was engrossed throughout. Something quite sinister about Italian football in the 80's.
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 Re: Diego Maradona
Topic Originator: elvis_lives  
Date:   Tue 17 Mar 21:04

Is this the one that was on at the cinema a wee while ago?
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 Re: Diego Maradona
Topic Originator: hudza  
Date:   Tue 17 Mar 21:11

Good call, will give this a watch.
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 Re: Diego Maradona
Topic Originator: eastendalloapar  
Date:   Tue 17 Mar 21:30

A true Scottish hero!

matt forsyth
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 Re: Diego Maradona
Topic Originator: Sammy_Must_Die  
Date:   Tue 17 Mar 21:37

Watched it on a plane last year and thought it was a brilliant, thorughly engrossing film of a footballing genius who, quite wrongly, is remembered for a few darker moments of his career.

As was already mentioned, there was definitely a much darker undercurrent to Italian football in the 80s/90s.



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 Re: Diego Maradona
Topic Originator: sammer  
Date:   Tue 17 Mar 21:41

The game is so soft now that any tackle from the past looks frightening. Maradona was often fouled as was Pele before him and many similar, but most of the time the defenders were playing, or attempting to play, the ball. Youngsters now assume that all slide tackles were fouls: they were not. Nor were well timed Roy Barry type challenges from behind. The balance between attack and defence was relatively equal. The great players learned how to turn defenders as they were receiving the ball. Now they can settle for a free kick for being nudged. So much for greater skill although Suarez and Mbappe can still do this.

Throwing yellow and red cards around means defenders are frightened to tackle so they retreat behind the attacker. Football has become like American basketball, veering towards Harlem Globetrotters entertainment at top level. At lower level it looks gutless. Goalkeepers now hold the ball a great deal longer than they ever have in the history of the game, all in the name of entertainment. Who wants to watch the goalkeeper hold the ball for around 10 seconds, drop it, then hoof it down the pitch? Plenty it seems, and many of them are American or Chinese.

Many defenders now can't tackle properly. Look at Stones, Man City's expensive defender, who can't tackle a fish supper. In the country of the blind, the one eyed man is king, which has been great news for Messi and Ronaldo. Messi for all his ability is no better than the Argentine Sivori many years before, but has been elevated to all time great due to the rules declaring him off limits. Ronaldo is an offside central striker these days who would have been penalised for cheating in the past, and correctly so. When proper tackling was allowed he would have been outstanding for sure, but at around George Best level, an instinctive player with no great awareness of his team's purpose.

One of the greatest performances I ever saw was Gentile v Maradona in 1982. Maradona never played better in his style than did Gentile, surely the greatest ever Libyan player, did that day. But good defending does not sell tickets for the armchair audience so we are being sold a product that is athletic popcorn. Maybe Coronavirus will burst some of football's bubbles.
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 Re: Diego Maradona
Topic Originator: Stanza  
Date:   Tue 17 Mar 23:50

I never knew Gentile had been born in Libya, thanks for that info, sammer.

He was some player - apparently he fouled Maradona 11 times in the first half of that 1982 match, and afterwards said "Football is not for ballerinas."

And yet despite his style of play and his reputation he was only sent off once in his whole career - I shudder to think what he must have done to merit that!

All of which kinda proves sammer's point!

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 Re: Diego Maradona
Topic Originator: sammer  
Date:   Wed 18 Mar 00:15

Gentile was hard as nails, which is in my book a perfectly legitimate form of defence. Roy Barry and Tommy Smith, Willie Millar too played in that style. Gentile was around 5'10, quick and ruthless, yet could play right back and made the opening goal in the 1982 World Cup. That was after he had taken care of Maradona and Zico in the earlier games. He was a Coronavirus type of defender: he never let the man breathe.

The only defender who I've seen play in that style recently was Canavarro so it is not so easy to carry it off in the modern game which hands out cards all over the shop. When the 'spectacle' becomes more important than the 'contest' we will see attempts to make the game 'more exciting.' Cricket has allowed bigger bats and shorter boundaries so resembles baseball more than before and rugby scores are now incredible in relation to what I first watched in the 1960s.

Regarding the original post, Maradona's reputation remains undimmed. His talent was remarkable and I believe he was probably the best left back, left half and outside left in Argentina, although he played inside left. That quality is rare- can you imagine Messi playing left back? Pele was even better and could have played any position on the park better than anyone else such was his god-given ability. In fact Pele was considered an exceptionally good goalkeeper in training- as was George Best. Must be something to do with hand/eye co-ordination.
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 Re: Diego Maradona
Topic Originator: parsmad68  
Date:   Wed 18 Mar 06:21

Quote:

sammer, Tue 17 Mar 21:41

The game is so soft now that any tackle from the past looks frightening. Maradona was often fouled as was Pele before him and many similar, but most of the time the defenders were playing, or attempting to play, the ball. Youngsters now assume that all slide tackles were fouls: they were not. Nor were well timed Roy Barry type challenges from behind. The balance between attack and defence was relatively equal. The great players learned how to turn defenders as they were receiving the ball. Now they can settle for a free kick for being nudged. So much for greater skill although Suarez and Mbappe can still do this.

Throwing yellow and red cards around means defenders are frightened to tackle so they retreat behind the attacker. Football has become like American basketball, veering towards Harlem Globetrotters entertainment at top level. At lower level it looks gutless. Goalkeepers now hold the ball a great deal longer than they ever have in the history of the game, all in the name of entertainment. Who wants to watch the goalkeeper hold the ball for around 10 seconds, drop it, then hoof it down the pitch? Plenty it seems, and many of them are American or Chinese.

Many defenders now can't tackle properly. Look at Stones, Man City's expensive defender, who can't tackle a fish supper. In the country of the blind, the one eyed man is king, which has been great news for Messi and Ronaldo. Messi for all his ability is no better than the Argentine Sivori many years before, but has been elevated to all time great due to the rules declaring him off limits. Ronaldo is an offside central striker these days who would have been penalised for cheating in the past, and correctly so. When proper tackling was allowed he would have been outstanding for sure, but at around George Best level, an instinctive player with no great awareness of his team's purpose.

One of the greatest performances I ever saw was Gentile v Maradona in 1982. Maradona never played better in his style than did Gentile, surely the greatest ever Libyan player, did that day. But good defending does not sell tickets for the armchair audience so we are being sold a product that is athletic popcorn. Maybe Coronavirus will burst some of football's bubbles.


Well said! A YouTube video of Tam Forsyth tackling Mick Shannon towards the end of a Scotland England game when Scotland were winning 2-1 (1976 I think). Was sublime to watch. There was a photo from the opposite side of the TV footage and Channon looks like the trigger is pulled but the ball nowhere to be seen.
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 Re: Diego Maradona
Topic Originator: GG Riva  
Date:   Wed 18 Mar 06:45

''.....Pele was considered an exceptionally good goalkeeper in training- as was George Best. Must be something to do with hand/eye co-ordination.''

It was certainly true of Best, Sammer. Denis Law has spoken about it on several occasions. He said that he and Bobby Charlton would get really frustrated at not being able to score against him, despite their best efforts. Best was a reluctant trainer and Matt Busby would often humour him by letting him play in goal in small sided games.

''The game is so soft now that any tackle from the past looks frightening. Maradona was often fouled as was Pele before him and many similar, but most of the time the defenders were playing, or attempting to play, the ball. Youngsters now assume that all slide tackles were fouls: they were not. Nor were well timed Roy Barry type challenges from behind. The balance between attack and defence was relatively equal. The great players learned how to turn defenders as they were receiving the ball. Now they can settle for a free kick for being nudged. So much for greater skill although Suarez and Mbappe can still do this.

Throwing yellow and red cards around means defenders are frightened to tackle so they retreat behind the attacker.''

I take all the points you make above, but would add that there were also a significant number of absolute thugs in the game, masquerading as footballers. I certainly wouldn't include Claudio Gentile in that list, but if we're talking about Maradona, Andoni Goikoetxea would be a good shout. Closer to home, we had the likes of Bertie Auld and down south a sprinkling of thugs in Don Revie's Leeds side, who were by no means alone in the art of kicking more skillful opponents to slow them down a bit.

Martin Keown refers to them as ''reducer tackles.''



Not your average Sunday League player.
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 Re: Diego Maradona
Topic Originator: Buspasspar  
Date:   Wed 18 Mar 08:23

I have a copy of the 1967 England v Scotland game If that was played today there would be 20 red cards
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 Re: Diego Maradona
Topic Originator: Paralex  
Date:   Wed 18 Mar 10:47

At the risk of bragging, I saw Maradona take Scotland apart at Hampden in 1979. I just watched a clip of his goal a few minutes ago to refresh my memory. He waltzed through half the team, passed, took the return ball and slipped it into the net.
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 Re: Diego Maradona
Topic Originator: parathletic  
Date:   Wed 18 Mar 11:38

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxFuYut827g

Here's the goals from that game here.His assist for the first goal was outstanding.He scores the 3rd(his first international goal) after selling the keeper a dummy.
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 Re: Diego Maradona
Topic Originator: Grant  
Date:   Wed 18 Mar 13:02

Messi and Cristiano Ronaldo are the two best players to play the game.

Not even worthy of debating.
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 Re: Diego Maradona
Topic Originator: Indiapar  
Date:   Wed 18 Mar 13:15

I too was at Hampden Park that night in 1979 when he made his debut. He was the difference between the teams.
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 Re: Diego Maradona
Topic Originator: parathletic  
Date:   Wed 18 Mar 13:21

He made his international debut in 1977 aged just 16!


As a kid I was given a video(the youngsters might not know what these were!) called Hero which was about the 1986 World Cup.I was only 5 when this World Cup took place.I used to watch it over and over.I remember seeing him doing keepie-uppies with an orange and a golf ball-as a kid I was mesmerised.I spent hours in the garden perfecting the 'Maradona 7' which was keeping the ball up with left foot,right foot, left knee, right knee.left shoulder, right shoulder then header in that order and then dropping it from head down to left foot and starting again.I have to say I would much rather watch him than either Messi or Ronaldo although he obviously had his flaws.

Just noticed that film is available on Amazon Prime-might watch it if I get a chance to reminisce.



Post Edited (Wed 18 Mar 13:44)
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 Re: Diego Maradona
Topic Originator: GG Riva  
Date:   Wed 18 Mar 13:44

Quote:

Grant, Wed 18 Mar 13:02

Messi and Cristiano Ronaldo are the two best players to play the game.

Not even worthy of debating.


I take it you're relatively young, Grant and you're entitled to your opinion, but those of us of a certain vintage can go back for longer than you, so we have a larger number of contenders to choose from. Messi and Ronaldo are fantastic footballers, well worthy of the accolade, but let's not dismiss Maradona because he was at his peak before your time.

I remember a Man U fans internet poll about 20 years ago, in which they had to choose their GOAT. I was gobsmacked to learn that George Best came a distant 4th while the Spice Boy, who couldn't run, couldn't tackle, couldn't head the ball and only had one foot, was runner up to yon mad Frenchman.....☹

Why don't you watch the documentary and see if you'd like to revise your opinion?



Not your average Sunday League player.
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 Re: Diego Maradona
Topic Originator: parathletic  
Date:   Wed 18 Mar 13:52

Those that think Maradona was better than Messi

Zico: "I think Maradona played more competitive football. He always played with an outright goal-scorer. But Maradona did so much for Argentina. He won the World Cup. Maradona always stood out in the big competitions. Including when Argentina weren't favourites.

"Pele: "For me, Maradona was one of the best players that there have been. If you asked me, 'was he better than Messi?', he was much better."

Gabriel Batistuta: "For me, Diego was the best of the lot. Maradona represents Argentina in many things, not only in football. He was the first to put us on the map, winning the World Cup, it was something unusual. It was charismatic too

Romario: "People argue about who is better, Maradona or Messi. Maradona is still the best for what he did with Argentina."

Luis Figo: "Maradona was the best in history."

Juan Roman Riquelme: "For me, Maradona is unique, he's the best in history. I grew up with Maradona. Watching him warm up was already enough, you could go home happy. He did things that no one had done before. He did keepy-ups with a bottle and with an orange."

Zlatan Ibrahimovic: "Maradona won the World Cup and, for me, is the best in history. But Messi won a lot more than him. Does this make him a worse player than Maradona? Not at all."



Here's the link to that film

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Hero-Official-film-World-Mexico/dp/B07F958562
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 Re: Diego Maradona
Topic Originator: Grant  
Date:   Wed 18 Mar 16:07

Quote:

GG Riva, Wed 18 Mar 13:44

Quote:

Grant, Wed 18 Mar 13:02

Messi and Cristiano Ronaldo are the two best players to play the game.

Not even worthy of debating.


I take it you're relatively young, Grant and you're entitled to your opinion, but those of us of a certain vintage can go back for longer than you, so we have a larger number of contenders to choose from. Messi and Ronaldo are fantastic footballers, well worthy of the accolade, but let's not dismiss Maradona because he was at his peak before your time.

I remember a Man U fans internet poll about 20 years ago, in which they had to choose their GOAT. I was gobsmacked to learn that George Best came a distant 4th while the Spice Boy, who couldn't run, couldn't tackle, couldn't head the ball and only had one foot, was runner up to yon mad Frenchman.....☹

Why don't you watch the documentary and see if you'd like to revise your opinion?



Ronaldo is 35 and still one of, the top players in Europe, Maradona left Napoli at 31? And was done after it.

You can say all you want about putting players back to those times, but bang Maradona into the modern day where defenders are more athletic, faster and stronger and how does he fare? How does Maradona himself do with the increased fitness? His problems were fairly well known.

Being "the best" to me also includes longetivity, the correct attitude, fitness and will to win to keep doing it year after year is fantastic. For that no one comes close to Ronaldo or Messi.

For one of seasons, most talented you can always debate between your Ronaldhinos, Garinchas, Best etc, they were all absolutely the best for there time during a period.

None come close to doing what Ronaldo and Messi have done, the level of dominance they've shared between them is more common to Tennis.
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 Re: Diego Maradona
Topic Originator: GG Riva  
Date:   Wed 18 Mar 16:41

Do yourself a favour and watch the documentary, Grant.

I get what you're saying about longevity, but that can't be the top criterion, otherwise we'd have Sir Stanley Matthews in the running.

Maradona and Best were far from role modelprofessionals, but that shouldn't detract from their fantastic talent. They were as far ahead of their peers as Messi and Ronaldo are today.

And please, let's not make judgements based on the undoubtedly superior fitness of modern players. Being fast And able to run around non stop, is king in the modern game, but it doesn't make you a great player, imo.



Not your average Sunday League player.
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 Re: Diego Maradona
Topic Originator: Grant  
Date:   Wed 18 Mar 18:07

Quote:

GG Riva, Wed 18 Mar 16:41

Do yourself a favour and watch the documentary, Grant.

I get what you're saying about longevity, but that can't be the top criterion, otherwise we'd have Sir Stanley Matthews in the running.

Maradona and Best were far from role modelprofessionals, but that shouldn't detract from their fantastic talent. They were as far ahead of their peers as Messi and Ronaldo are today.

And please, let's not make judgements based on the undoubtedly superior fitness of modern players. Being fast And able to run around non stop, is king in the modern game, but it doesn't make you a great player, imo.




I've seen plenty of footage of Maradona GG, I'm fully aware of the talents he possessed.

What do we have as the top criterion? Do we have it on goals? In which case Ronaldo and Messi are in front? The most league goals Maradona scored in one season in Europe? 16.

What about Balon D'ors? Did Maradona even come in the top 3?! If he was so far ahead of his peers why on earth was he not recognised as such?

In every conceivable category we have it clearly points to Messi and Ronaldo being the best players to play the game, nothing but misty eyed revisionism from some people's youths would have Maradona as a better player.

Being fast doesn't make you a great player (Nor does kicking players, but don't tell Sammer) but it can certainly help, and there's no denying that the increased athleticism and professionalism has changed the game completely, did Maradona have the professionalism for the modern game, did Best?


The amount of revisionism that goes on about some players is wild. Absolutely no doubting Maradona had supreme talent, but if he was so far ahead of his peers he would've done better than those stats, it's almost like in the days where coverage of football was less, the times where he was on would stick on the mind more rather than the nothing games?

Ronaldo has scored 21 league goals in 22 appearances this season in the Seria A BTW, he's 35. In his last season in the seria A where he was a sprightly 31, Maradona scored 6.

Messi at 32 has scored 19 in 22.


But tell me again how Maradona was better than both.
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 Re: Diego Maradona
Topic Originator: Grant  
Date:   Wed 18 Mar 18:13

Quote:

parathletic, Wed 18 Mar 11:38

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxFuYut827g

Here's the goals from that game here.His assist for the first goal was outstanding.He scores the 3rd(his first international goal) after selling the keeper a dummy.



You can't be waxing lyrical about defenders of the past then putting that video up with a straight face.
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 Re: Diego Maradona
Topic Originator: Andrew283  
Date:   Wed 18 Mar 18:18

Quote:

Grant, Wed 18 Mar 18:13

Quote:

parathletic, Wed 18 Mar 11:38

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxFuYut827g

Here's the goals from that game here.His assist for the first goal was outstanding.He scores the 3rd(his first international goal) after selling the keeper a dummy.



You can't be waxing lyrical about defenders of the past then putting that video up with a straight face.


Agreed, the defending from both sides there involved either kicking out or putting a leg out and hoping. Awful spacial awareness.
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 Re: Diego Maradona
Topic Originator: Grant  
Date:   Wed 18 Mar 18:24

John Stones would've been the best defender on that pitch going by that footage.

It's pretty common, I'd genuinely challenge any of those posting about the good old days to actually watch a game from the 60s/70s/80s, the change is absolutely mental and the standard, especially in the 60s and 70s is awful. Which shouldn't come as a surprise to absolutely anyone, who would've thought that professionals in there sport would be better than those who played it part time 50 years ago?
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 Re: Diego Maradona
Topic Originator: parathletic  
Date:   Wed 18 Mar 18:38

Only European players were eligible to win the Ballon D'or until 1995
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 Re: Diego Maradona
Topic Originator: wee eck  
Date:   Wed 18 Mar 18:51

It's depressing the extent to which statistics have become the measure of ability in football. I put it down to the American influence. They are obsessed with numbers in sport.
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 Re: Diego Maradona
Topic Originator: GG Riva  
Date:   Wed 18 Mar 19:27

Quote:

Grant, Wed 18 Mar 18:07

Quote:

GG Riva, Wed 18 Mar 16:41

Do yourself a favour and watch the documentary, Grant.

I get what you're saying about longevity, but that can't be the top criterion, otherwise we'd have Sir Stanley Matthews in the running.

Maradona and Best were far from role modelprofessionals, but that shouldn't detract from their fantastic talent. They were as far ahead of their peers as Messi and Ronaldo are today.

And please, let's not make judgements based on the undoubtedly superior fitness of modern players. Being fast And able to run around non stop, is king in the modern game, but it doesn't make you a great player, imo.




I've seen plenty of footage of Maradona GG, I'm fully aware of the talents he possessed.

What do we have as the top criterion? Do we have it on goals? In which case Ronaldo and Messi are in front? The most league goals Maradona scored in one season in Europe? 16.

What about Balon D'ors? Did Maradona even come in the top 3?! If he was so far ahead of his peers why on earth was he not recognised as such?

In every conceivable category we have it clearly points to Messi and Ronaldo being the best players to play the game, nothing but misty eyed revisionism from some people's youths would have Maradona as a better player.

Being fast doesn't make you a great player (Nor does kicking players, but don't tell Sammer) but it can certainly help, and there's no denying that the increased athleticism and professionalism has changed the game completely, did Maradona have the professionalism for the modern game, did Best?


The amount of revisionism that goes on about some players is wild. Absolutely no doubting Maradona had supreme talent, but if he was so far ahead of his peers he would've done better than those stats, it's almost like in the days where coverage of football was less, the times where he was on would stick on the mind more rather than the nothing games?

Ronaldo has scored 21 league goals in 22 appearances this season in the Seria A BTW, he's 35. In his last season in the seria A where he was a sprightly 31, Maradona scored 6.

Messi at 32 has scored 19 in 22.


But tell me again how Maradona was better than both.


Maradona was a playmaker rather than a striker, so it's not surprising that he scored less goals. Serie A in the late 80s was far more defensively orientated than it or La Liga is today. Maradona at 31 was heavily into cocaine from Sunday evening until Wednesday and then he'd come off it to avoid detection in case he was tested the following Sunday. You have to wonder how good he and Best could have been had they been as dedicated to their profession as Messi and Ronaldo.

Please promise me you'll watch the documentary if you haven't seen it and give me your thoughts on it afterwards. I can guarantee you that it's much better than watching another programme about this frigging virus. ☺



Not your average Sunday League player.
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 Re: Diego Maradona
Topic Originator: OzPar  
Date:   Wed 18 Mar 20:04

I've said it ofttimes on here before and I will say it every time Messi, Ronaldo, Maradona and Pele get mentioned, the "best footballer" ever to grace the world stage was Ronaldinho (Barcelona and Brazil).

No other player has shown such speed and magical dexterity with a ball at his feet.

He won the Ballon D'or in 2005, a couple of years before Ronaldo and Messi began to really make an impact. But he shone too briefly.

In common with Best and Maradona, he was prone to temptation and distraction and his career went downhill far too quickly. But while it lasted... wow!

If you need reminding, just take a look at some of this...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EiIHHiJdVo8

Last I heard, he was in a jail cell in Paraguay, charged over a passport infringement.
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 Re: Diego Maradona
Topic Originator: Johan_Cruyff  
Date:   Wed 18 Mar 20:06

If only Ronaldo R9 and Van Basten weren't curtailed by horrendous injuries this discussion would be much wider ;-)

And btw - you're all wrong - Cruyff is the best ever LOL

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 Re: Diego Maradona
Topic Originator: Buspasspar  
Date:   Wed 18 Mar 20:34

Think you have been sucked in a wee bit GG to a documentary
He captained a modest Argentinian side ?




15 Luis Islas Argentina Estudiantes
18 Nery Pumpido Argentina
22 Hector Zelada Mexico CF América
Defender
5 José Luis Brown Colombia Atlético Nacional
8 Néstor Clausen Argentina Independiente
9 José Cuciuffo Argentina Vélez Sarsfield
13 Oscar Garré Argentina Ferro Carril Oeste
6 Daniel Passarella Italy ACF Fiorentina
19 Óscar Ruggeri Argentina River Plate
Midfielder
2 Sergio Batista Argentina Argentinos Juniors
3 Ricardo Bochini Argentina Independiente
7 Jorge Burruchaga France FC Nantes
12 Héctor Enrique Argentina River Plate
14 Ricardo Giusti Argentina Independiente
10 Diego Maradona Italy SSC Napoli
16 Julio Olarticoechea Argentina Boca Juniors
20 Carlos Tapia Argentina Boca Juniors
21 Marcelo Trobbiani Spain Elche CF
Forward
1 Sergio Almirón Argentina Newell's Old Boys
4 Claudio Borghi Argentina Argentinos Juniors
17 Pedro Pasculli Italy US Lecce
11 Jorge Valdano Spain Real Madrid
Manager
Carlos Bilardo
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 Re: Diego Maradona
Topic Originator: sammer  
Date:   Wed 18 Mar 22:10

The old joke amongst ageing golfers was ’Can you shoot your age?’ In other words when you are 72 years old are you still able to shoot a par round? It seems a harsh but valid judgement of a professional golfer.

For a footballer the same. Can you shoot your age? Well, long before Roanldo, a man called Ferenc Puskas did just that when playing for Real Madrid. He had scored more goals in previous season so 1961-62 was a quieter one; but he still managed 40 goals in 40 games so was shooting below his age, which was 35. He was not really a main striker either; more of a Maradona type attacking inside forward. Maybe Ronaldo is as good. I doubt it very much.

Grant. you will get no arguments on here that Messi and Ronaldo are great players; we are not stupid. But we are questioning their ability when being tackled properly – not illegally- to flourish in the way they have done in recent years. I am sure they would have adapted well, same as the greats before them could have adapted to the modern faster, more tactical game. Albeit with three substitutes it is much easier to keep the pace of the game faster. Pele and Maradona had to play with supporting players who paced themselves over 90 minutes, not 70.

Messi is weak physically and could have been exposed in the game I first watched. Not by much, since his talent is screamingly obvious but maybe he would not have had quite the same impact. Ronaldo is a ‘jessy’ and for all his great athleticism not a team player. He looks vulnerable psychologically to a hard Roy Barry man and ball challenge. He’s a wide attacker, not a central striker where the bruises are collected and would never have played there in earlier times when his offside positioning would have brought attacks to a grinding halt. Same as Thierry Henry who had better technique in my book. For me Messi and Ronaldo are exciting but not complete players like Beckenbaeur, di Stefano, Cryuff and Zidane. That’s before we get to Maradona and Pele. Roanldo and Messi have never been fully tested.

Buspasspar,
I agree. The myth of Maradona dragging a mediocre Argentine team to victory in 1986 is exactly that. They were good enough for the semis without him and yes he was the reason they won, but they were not just an average team. In the final he was blotted out Gentile style by Lothar Matheus.
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 Re: Diego Maradona
Topic Originator: Stanza  
Date:   Wed 18 Mar 23:23

Wee eck made a good point, that our football is not as susceptible to statistical analysis as the American version. That allows GOAT discussions like this to take place, without ever reaching agreement.

I'm just satisfied that in my time on this earth I have seen all of the fantastic players mentioned in this thread - some in the flesh, some on TV.

No goalkeepers in the discussion, obviously a specialised position so maybe it needs a GGOAT argument! :)

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 Re: Diego Maradona
Topic Originator: Paralex  
Date:   Wed 18 Mar 23:36

I think there are 4 players that have outshone the rest in their claim to be the greatest ever player, Pele, Maradona, Christiano Ronaldo and Messi.

Other names that come to mind are Puskas, Ronaldinho, Ronaldo, Beckenbauer, Cruyff, Best and I am sure several others can be named. But I think the top 4 all have genuine claims to being the best ever.
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 Re: Diego Maradona
Topic Originator: Grant  
Date:   Wed 18 Mar 23:56

Quote:

sammer, Wed 18 Mar 22:10

The old joke amongst ageing golfers was ’Can you shoot your age?’ In other words when you are 72 years old are you still able to shoot a par round? It seems a harsh but valid judgement of a professional golfer.

For a footballer the same. Can you shoot your age? Well, long before Roanldo, a man called Ferenc Puskas did just that when playing for Real Madrid. He had scored more goals in previous season so 1961-62 was a quieter one; but he still managed 40 goals in 40 games so was shooting below his age, which was 35. He was not really a main striker either; more of a Maradona type attacking inside forward. Maybe Ronaldo is as good. I doubt it very much.

Grant. you will get no arguments on here that Messi and Ronaldo are great players; we are not stupid. But we are questioning their ability when being tackled properly – not illegally- to flourish in the way they have done in recent years. I am sure they would have adapted well, same as the greats before them could have adapted to the modern faster, more tactical game. Albeit with three substitutes it is much easier to keep the pace of the game faster. Pele and Maradona had to play with supporting players who paced themselves over 90 minutes, not 70.

Messi is weak physically and could have been exposed in the game I first watched. Not by much, since his talent is screamingly obvious but maybe he would not have had quite the same impact. Ronaldo is a ‘jessy’ and for all his great athleticism not a team player. He looks vulnerable psychologically to a hard Roy Barry man and ball challenge. He’s a wide attacker, not a central striker where the bruises are collected and would never have played there in earlier times when his offside positioning would have brought attacks to a grinding halt. Same as Thierry Henry who had better technique in my book. For me Messi and Ronaldo are exciting but not complete players like Beckenbaeur, di Stefano, Cryuff and Zidane. That’s before we get to Maradona and Pele. Roanldo and Messi have never been fully tested.

Buspasspar,
I agree. The myth of Maradona dragging a mediocre Argentine team to victory in 1986 is exactly that. They were good enough for the semis without him and yes he was the reason they won, but they were not just an average team. In the final he was blotted out Gentile style by Lothar Matheus.


So much of that is just utterly wrong.

Have a look at that Real Madrid final at Hampden, just look at the standard they're playing against, Kelty Hearts of nowadays would've given that Real team a better game. You doubt Ronaldo is better than Puskas? Just look at the bloody videos.

You're questioning there ability when being tackled properly?!?! Again, look at the video footage from Maradonas era!! That's meant to be one of the golden ages of Scottish football and its pub league defending, absolutely Attrocious, I wouldn't take any of the defenders in that video playing like that over Danny Devine. Tackled properly?

Pele and Maradona also had play against opponents who would pace themselves over 90 minutes, not 70.

Messi is weak physically?!?! You're genuinely just making things up, that's wrong, completely and utterly wrong, look at the treatment Pepe and Ramos would give him, "weak physically" my Lord. He's taller than Maradona! It's not like everyone was giants in the 60s,70s and 80s were they?

Ronaldo is a jessy? Have a word, he looks weak physiologically to a hard tackle? Ye must have played over 700 games, you don't think a defender has thought "huh, I wonder if I just kick him he won't score" with a great mind like that sammer it's a shame you weren't on the coaching team of the elite European clubs over the past decade while Ronaldo has been dominating, you don't score the goals he has, be at the levels of fitness he is, and stay at the top of your sport for as long as he has by being weak. In a post riddled with nonsense, that might be the biggest bit.

Ronaldo has played as a central striker for a few years now, you'd know this if you had an inkling of an idea about what you were talking about, it's not a recent development.

Ronaldo and Messi aren't complete players, I mean, they're only attackers who have been effectively averaging a goal a game for a decade right? Bloody hell.

Ronaldo and Messi have never been tested?



There's literally so, so, so much wrong with that post.


There's rose tinted glasses where some herald back to there youth and the good old days and then there's that plethora of ****. By no conceivable reckoning is there any way any footballer comes close to Ronaldo and Messi as the best ever, the only debate is between which two of them it is.

Post Edited (Thu 19 Mar 00:01)
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 Re: Diego Maradona
Topic Originator: Grant  
Date:   Thu 19 Mar 00:03

Quote:

OzPar, Wed 18 Mar 20:04

I've said it ofttimes on here before and I will say it every time Messi, Ronaldo, Maradona and Pele get mentioned, the "best footballer" ever to grace the world stage was Ronaldinho (Barcelona and Brazil).

No other player has shown such speed and magical dexterity with a ball at his feet.

He won the Ballon D'or in 2005, a couple of years before Ronaldo and Messi began to really make an impact. But he shone too briefly.

In common with Best and Maradona, he was prone to temptation and distraction and his career went downhill far too quickly. But while it lasted... wow!

If you need reminding, just take a look at some of this...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EiIHHiJdVo8

Last I heard, he was in a jail cell in Paraguay, charged over a passport infringement.


See I wouldn't disagree with this, Ronaldinho was incredible.

But it shows how incredible both Messi and Ronaldo have done that they can maintain their standard year in, year out, over such a sustained period of time. Absolutely incredible.
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 Re: Diego Maradona
Topic Originator: Indiapar  
Date:   Thu 19 Mar 01:00

I did watch Maradona in a 5 a side competition quite a few years ago. A shadow of his former self I would have to say but I suppose thats what comes with age.
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 Re: Diego Maradona
Topic Originator: Andrew283  
Date:   Thu 19 Mar 01:36

Claiming Messi isn't a complete player is complete and utter bulls***. He's gone from being a world class right inside forward, to creating reinventing the striking position as a False 9. He has one of the best passing ranges of any player I've ever seen (As good as the likes of Pirlo and Xavi) so could easily, if he wanted move to a central midfield position till well into his 30s etc. If he had taken up Spanish nationality and played in the all conquering Spain team this wouldn't even be a debate. He is clearly the Goat and I'd argue that Ronaldinho and R9, if they had played at their peak for a few more years would be up there with him (Maybe even better)
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 Re: Diego Maradona
Topic Originator: GG Riva  
Date:   Thu 19 Mar 07:29

Isn't it fascinating how som threads develop on these forums?

I started this one, inviting fellow football fans to watch a no holds barred documentary about a contender for the greatest footballer of all time. Cue some dismissive comments from some of our younger dotnetters (aye, I'm talking to you, Grant) that the only contenders are Messi and Ronaldo.

I suppose it all depends on which criteria you use to try and rank them. I could ask how many World Cups have Messi and Ronaldo won, but that would be grossly unfair on CR7, since he has been handicapped by playing for a country who didn't have enough great players to win it. Or maybe he wasn't able to drag them there, as Maradona did and Messi so nearly did in 2014, but for the officials bottling a penalty for Argentina and a red card for Neuer in the final.

I didn't say Argentina 86 were mediocre, Buspass, but modest. Quite a difference, eh? I meant they weren't particularly outstanding without Maradona. Brazil were a far better team in that tournament, as they were at Spain 82, but they won neither, because they shot themselves in the foot in both tournaments.

So, I don't know who the GOAT is, but I do know a good case could be made for at least 10 players from different eras. By all means carry on this debate - I'm enjoying it but don't forget my plea:-

Please watch this film doc. and then maybe we can discuss it some more. There certainly won't be any other football to discuss any time soon. ☹

Eta. I've amended the thread title to reflect my intention more accurately. Not that it'll make any difference to where folk will take the thread....☺



Not your average Sunday League player.


Post Edited (Thu 19 Mar 08:46)
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 Re: Diego Maradona
Topic Originator: Buspasspar  
Date:   Thu 19 Mar 08:21

Quote GG :-

I used the word modest G.G

Once I am in my 4 month lock down I will have time to watch it :-)

Take care
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 Re: Diego Maradona
Topic Originator: GG Riva  
Date:   Thu 19 Mar 08:41

Quote:

Buspasspar, Thu 19 Mar 08:21

Quote GG :-

I used the word modest G.G

Once I am in my 4 month lock down I will have time to watch it :-)

Take care


Apologies, BP. It was the dastardly Sammer, who inserted "mediocre" in place of My "modest" and with your username beside it, my addled old brain made an erroneous connection. ☹



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 Re: Diego Maradona
Topic Originator: Grant  
Date:   Thu 19 Mar 10:34

Quote:

GG Riva, Thu 19 Mar 07:29
. Cue some dismissive comments from some of our younger dotnetters (aye, I'm talking to you, Grant) that the only contenders are Messi and Ronaldo.

I suppose it all depends on which criteria you use to try and rank them. I could ask how many World Cups have Messi and Ronaldo won


You could, and I'd ask what relevance there international team has to there achievements as a player. By every metric Ronaldo and Messi are the only contenders.

The laughable statements by stammer are truly wild.
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 Re: Diego Maradona - C4 Film Documentary
Topic Originator: Playup_Pompey  
Date:   Thu 19 Mar 11:15

look forward to watching (and will take pinch of salt) but having been in Argentina last month he is still a God to most of the footballing world out there. visiting teams give him a throne to sit on etc. that level of "worship" doesnt get given to average guys who got a lucky goal or 2 in a world cup.

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 Re: Diego Maradona - C4 Film Documentary
Topic Originator: Buspasspar  
Date:   Thu 19 Mar 13:19

I was at the 1966 Scotland v Brazil 1-1 game when Pele and Bremner had a wee set to

Going back to the all time greats the one thing that sticks in my mind is how hopeless most goalkeepers were back then

It was almost like they had dragged the first guy from the crowd who was wearing gloves

Real v Frankfurt 7-3 with Ferenc Puskas the galloping major and Alfredo di Stefano two great players but watch the goalkeeping and to an extent some of the defending

The modern game has come on a long way with keeper coaches defence coaches etc
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 Re: Diego Maradona - C4 Film Documentary
Topic Originator: GG Riva  
Date:   Thu 19 Mar 14:57

Topic Originator: Grant like | nolike - 1
Date: Thu 19 Mar 10:34

Quote:

GG Riva, Thu 19 Mar 07:29
. Cue some dismissive comments from some of our younger dotnetters (aye, I'm talking to you, Grant) that the only contenders are Messi and Ronaldo.

I suppose it all depends on which criteria you use to try and rank them. I could ask how many World Cups have Messi and Ronaldo won


You could, and I'd ask what relevance there international team has to there achievements as a player. By every metric Ronaldo and Messi are the only contenders.

The laughable statements by stammer are truly wild.

It was good of you to leave out the rest of my post when I said that (using only this criterion) would be grossly unfair. I'm fairly certain that neither Alfredo Di Stefano nor George Best even played in a WC finals tournament, but many commentators would have both in their Top 10 All Time Greats. You will have noticed that I used the plural - criteria - as that would give any analysis far more credibility. We'll just have to agree to disagree about your contention that Messi and Ronaldo are the only contenders and we'll not fall out over it. :-)

As for sammer, or stammer as you've now renamed him, he's not daft. I'm fairly certain he's just being a bit provocative to stir up a bit of debate - nowt wrong with that. ;-)



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 Re: Diego Maradona - C4 Film Documentary
Topic Originator: Ben,D.A  
Date:   Thu 19 Mar 15:52

In another 20-30 years Grant will be looking at Ronaldo and Messi as old fashioned players as other future players will be considered the greatest. This topic will come up again and Grant might find himself disagreeing with younger posters defending their beliefs.

only 11 make the team,the rest can just but dream.
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 Re: Diego Maradona - C4 Film Documentary
Topic Originator: Johan_Cruyff  
Date:   Thu 19 Mar 16:32

Dont forget Maradona was probably high as a kite most of the time - that makes it all the more incredible :-)

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 Re: Diego Maradona - C4 Film Documentary
Topic Originator: Grant  
Date:   Thu 19 Mar 16:34

Quote:

Ben,D.A, Thu 19 Mar 15:52

In another 20-30 years Grant will be looking at Ronaldo and Messi as old fashioned players as other future players will be considered the greatest. This topic will come up again and Grant might find himself disagreeing with younger posters defending their beliefs.


I hope not, at one point I've judged R9 and Ronaldhino to be amongst the greatest ever, they've both been surpassed by CR and Messi, sports are constantly evolving.

If, and when we have better players than Ronaldo and Messi we'll be very lucky indeed.
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 Re: Diego Maradona - C4 Film Documentary
Topic Originator: Johan_Cruyff  
Date:   Thu 19 Mar 16:37


If, and when we have better players than Ronaldo and Messi we'll be very lucky indeed.


Very true Grant !

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 Re: Diego Maradona - C4 Film Documentary
Topic Originator: sonofpetrie  
Date:   Thu 19 Mar 17:35

It's comparing apples and oranges doing this and I'm way more inclined to agree with GG and (as is almost always the case) Sammer on this one.

Barring the true invention of time travel we will never know but I can't help thinking that Messi and Ronaldo would not have coped without the protection they receive now and the conditions and methods available back then.

Imagine Ronaldo playing on the old quagmire pitches that Maradona and Pele had to put up with. Not to mention going further back to the days of the great Real Madrid sides where the ball weighed roughly the same as a small family car.

Picture a game in those conditions with defenders who could (to quote Sammer) tackle properly AND were allowed 2 or 3 outright assaults before the ref would even consider a booking. Ronaldo can barely take an ankle tap without rolling around like he's been shot. How the hell would he have coped with a Gentile leveller?

Reverse all of those variables and bring Pelé, Maradona, Puskas and Best etc to this era. Add in the fact that they would have been groomed, cared for and trained from a much younger age with protection from drugs, alcohol and the like (Maradona and Best specifically) and I am very confident they would have similar stats and longevity to Ronaldo and Messi.

I agree and disagree with you GG on the international stuff. Agree in the sense that the Argentina '86 team were not world beaters and certainly not favourites but he elevated them to another level.

Disagree that it would be unfair to penalise CR7 for the lack of success. He has played in some of the best Portugal squads ever with talent from the pinnacle of European club football.

Ronaldo and Messi have played in some of the finest squads the modern game has seen and rightly won the many honours they have between them however I'd urge anyone to look at the 1990 squad AC Milan had that finished 2nd to Maradona's Napoli in the title race. It is like an almanac of European greats.

Goals are not the only criteria as if they were Pelé would have no competition (not to mention his world cup wins). It would also discount some of the world's greatest defenders.

Anyway I am working on that time machine and dotnet will be the first to know when it's done and where the 5v5 will be held to answer once and for all. I know who my money will be on.

"The only place success comes before work is in the dictionary"
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 Re: Diego Maradona - C4 Film Documentary
Topic Originator: sammer  
Date:   Thu 19 Mar 17:43

I think Grant might be on to something when he claims that we are prone to worshipping the players we saw in our youth. That would apply to him as well of course who defends the superiority of his duotheism like a zealot.

I’m not alone in committing the heresy of questioning Ronaldo’s status as the GOAT. Johnny Giles on RTE used to be very harsh on Ronaldo’s poor decision making, or to be blunt, selfishness. More widely, there are many who view Ronaldo as a great athlete who is very good at football rather than a truly great footballer. GG said Ronaldo was unlucky in not playing for a top country, but Portugal did actually win the Euro Championships in 2016 when Ronaldo was carried off injured. They missed out at home in 2004 to Greece when they had a stronger team on paper and a young Ronaldo led the attack.

I’ll stick with my polytheism and place Ronaldo in the pantheon of outstanding wide attackers, men who could turn a defence inside or out and win matches such as Kubala, Hamrin, Best and Henry. Messi belongs to that great tradition of Argentinean number 10s like Sivori, Kempes and Maradona. The fact that football has evolved does not make them better than their predecessors any more than Ed Sheeran is better than Bob Dylan.
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 Re: Diego Maradona - C4 Film Documentary
Topic Originator: TAFKA_Super_Petrie  
Date:   Thu 19 Mar 20:16

I've always leant towards Maradona as the greatest ever.

That goal against England gets better every time i see it, even towards the end before he feints round Shilton someone tries to take him out and can't even get close enough to 'do' him.

On the subject of Ronaldo, he looks like a terminator. By that i mean if you were going to custom build a optimum footballer be wouldn't be far off a cookie cutter mould. Guy is a specimen physically, which is as much down to his own mindset and hardwork as it is sports science, nutrition etc etc in my opinion.

There was a documentary about him a few years ago measuring all his different physical attributes under monitored conditions with scientises and such like and it could easily have passed off as the scenes near the end of Rocky IV with Drago going through his paces; guy is an absolute monster in that sense.

On the pitch - aside from all the goals and youtube highlight reels - the one game where Ronaldo really set himself above the rest in my eyes was a WC qualifying playoff many moons ago away to Sweden. I think they were winning 1-0 from the first game in Lisbon and went 2-0 on aggregate in the return leg before Sweden nicked two quick goals and were absolutely battering them. I know it's easy to put the rose tinted spectacles on but he pretty much single handedly took it upon himself and went onto get a hat trick to send them through to the World Cup.

---------------------------------------------------------------


"People always talk about Ronaldinho and magic, but I didn't see him today. I saw Henrik Larsson; that's where the magic was."
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 Re: Diego Maradona - C4 Film Documentary
Topic Originator: Grant  
Date:   Thu 19 Mar 23:45

Quote:

TAFKA_Super_Petrie, Thu 19 Mar 20:16

I've always leant towards Maradona as the greatest ever.

That goal against England gets better every time i see it, even towards the end before he feints round Shilton someone tries to take him out and can't even get close enough to 'do' him.

On the subject of Ronaldo, he looks like a terminator. By that i mean if you were going to custom build a optimum footballer be wouldn't be far off a cookie cutter mould. Guy is a specimen physically, which is as much down to his own mindset and hardwork as it is sports science, nutrition etc etc in my opinion.

There was a documentary about him a few years ago measuring all his different physical attributes under monitored conditions with scientises and such like and it could easily have passed off as the scenes near the end of Rocky IV with Drago going through his paces; guy is an absolute monster in that sense.

On the pitch - aside from all the goals and youtube highlight reels - the one game where Ronaldo really set himself above the rest in my eyes was a WC qualifying playoff many moons ago away to Sweden. I think they were winning 1-0 from the first game in Lisbon and went 2-0 on aggregate in the return leg before Sweden nicked two quick goals and were absolutely battering them. I know it's easy to put the rose tinted spectacles on but he pretty much single handedly took it upon himself and went onto get a hat trick to send them through to the World Cup.


If that's the game I'm thinking off Ibrahimovic had an outstanding game for Sweden aswell, both world class players going at it.
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 Re: Diego Maradona - C4 Film Documentary
Topic Originator: kozmasrightfoot  
Date:   Fri 20 Mar 16:14

When is it on,I think I've missed it.
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 Re: Diego Maradona - C4 Film Documentary
Topic Originator: wee eck  
Date:   Fri 20 Mar 16:25

Saturday night, C4, 9pm per the opening post.
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 Re: Diego Maradona - C4 Film Documentary
Topic Originator: Johan_Cruyff  
Date:   Fri 20 Mar 17:30

TAFKA - Was that the same one when they were banging crosses in and turning all the lights off and he was still heading the ball in the goal as he was reading the flight from the body shape of the winger ?
He then raced a Spanish 100m sprinter and beat him in the 'cutting' technique and was just marginally slower in straight lines

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4achmhzLNoY

If it is here is the full 45min documentary

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 Re: Diego Maradona - C4 Film Documentary
Topic Originator: GG Riva  
Date:   Sat 21 Mar 17:48

Bump! C4 at 9 pm tonight. No fitbaw today, no pub or restaurant tonight - no excuse for no watching this must see film documentary tonight. 🙂



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 Re: Diego Maradona - C4 Film Documentary
Topic Originator: Buspasspar  
Date:   Sat 21 Mar 17:51

OK GG you have convinced me I'll watch it on the laptop Wife has first dibs on the TV :-)
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 Re: Diego Maradona - C4 Film Documentary
Topic Originator: GG Riva  
Date:   Sat 21 Mar 18:01

Quote:

Buspasspar, Sat 21 Mar 17:51

OK GG you have convinced me I'll watch it on the laptop Wife has first dibs on the TV :-)


I tak it you wear the kilt in yer hoose cos Mrs BP wears the troosers? 😉



Not your average Sunday League player.
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 Re: Diego Maradona - C4 Film Documentary
Topic Originator: Buspasspar  
Date:   Sat 21 Mar 19:21

Correct GG and I will not tell her you said that

To be honest I have not watched the telly for over 30 + years apart from Rugby and the occasional MOTD
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 Re: Diego Maradona - C4 Film Documentary
Topic Originator: neils  
Date:   Sat 21 Mar 19:27

I agree with Cannavaro, that defensive trio especially, to win the WC in 2006 was superb.

I've never a team so comfortable defending inside their own box. The cooperation and coordination was telepathic.

Agree that defending is overlooked, Willie Miller was so good, he only seemed to make a tackle rarely, his positioning was that good there was no need.
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 Re: Diego Maradona - C4 Film Documentary
Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks  
Date:   Sat 21 Mar 22:31

Buspass that is surely an exaggeration?

No one would talk much in society if they realised how often they misunderstood others
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 Re: Diego Maradona - C4 Film Documentary
Topic Originator: Buspasspar  
Date:   Sun 22 Mar 08:15

No TOWK that is genuine I have not watched TV since Minnie Caldwells cat Bobby went missing
I genuinely don't watch telly Reading and music for me
Marydoll in the back room where the TV is
Stay safe TOWK
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