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 14-14-14
Topic Originator: saltonsgonagetu  
Date:   Mon 27 Apr 16:51

League 2 clubs have agreed to back a 14-14-14 league reconstruction ,which means the chances of any other format getting passed look slim.
The Elgin City chairman has said it may not be required as in 10 weeks time , more than one club may have gone bust .
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/amp/football/52439324?__twitter_impression=true

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 Re: 14-14-14
Topic Originator: bencrawfordd  
Date:   Mon 27 Apr 17:08

This would see 3 leagues looking like this(?):

Celtic
Rangers
Motherwell
Aberdeen
Livingston
Hibernian
St Johnstone
Kilmarnock
St Mirren
Ross County
Hamilton
Hearts
Dundee United
Inverness CT

Dundee
Ayr United
Dunfermline
Arbroath
Morton
Alloa
Queen of the South
Partick Thistle
Raith Rovers
Falkirk
Airdrieonians
Montrose
East Fife
Dumbarton

Clyde
Peterhead
Forfar
Stranraer
Cove Rangers
Edinburgh City
Elgin City
Cowdenbeath
Queens Park
Stirling Albion
Annan Athletic
Stenhousemuir
Albion Rovers
Brechin City

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 Re: 14-14-14
Topic Originator: M-PAR  
Date:   Mon 27 Apr 17:39

Wouldn’t mind this tbh, play every team home and away. League splits with top 7 and bottom 7. Play each other home and away again. Old firm would still get their 4 games a season. 2 teams relegated from each league. 2 teams promoted with 1 automatically promoted and 1 through playoffs.

COYP!
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 Re: 14-14-14
Topic Originator: StevenPar77  
Date:   Mon 27 Apr 18:07

I would bite the hand off of that proposal. What a great league we would be in.

http://www.agiftfor.net
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 Re: 14-14-14
Topic Originator: Westies squint kicks  
Date:   Mon 27 Apr 18:13

Topic Originator: M-PAR like | nolike
Date: Mon 27 Apr 17:39

Wouldn’t mind this tbh, play every team home and away. League splits with top 7 and bottom 7. Play each other home and away again. Old firm would still get their 4 games a season. 2 teams relegated from each league. 2 teams promoted with 1 automatically promoted and 1 through playoffs.

38 game regular season works
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 Re: 14-14-14
Topic Originator: neils  
Date:   Mon 27 Apr 18:16

Starts to sound better, as long as there is movement between the league's, also the big losers previously would be appeased.

Still feel sorry for kelty hearts and Brora though.
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 Re: 14-14-14
Topic Originator: dpard  
Date:   Mon 27 Apr 18:27

Like that 14-14-14 idea but for me should be 2 up 2 down from the league's. 3rd bottom goes into a playoff with 3rd, 4th and 5th.
2 down from bottom league also.
Really have to give the pyramid a proper chance. Teams down there deserve a decent shot imo.

The flame still burns
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 Re: 14-14-14
Topic Originator: GJS93  
Date:   Mon 27 Apr 18:33

here is what the league 2 teams agreed on

http://www.stirlingalbionfc.co.uk/club-statement-on-reconstruction/

basically its for 1 season.
play each other 3 times but basically its going to be home and away to make 26 games.
nothing mentioned about promotion, relegation, playoffs.

that might all change and still be agreeable to league 2 teams but I still cant see it happening.

any split if that was added wouldn't be 7-7 with a team having a week off, it would be likely 6-8. having a split after 26 games with another 10 or 14 to play after it, no thanks!
what we have now isn't perfect but its still far more acceptable than 14-14-14 or 14-10-10-10.



Post Edited (Mon 27 Apr 18:46)
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 Re: 14-14-14
Topic Originator: moviescot  
Date:   Mon 27 Apr 18:39

Quote:

neils, Mon 27 Apr 18:16

Starts to sound better, as long as there is movement between the league's, also the big losers previously would be appeased.

Still feel sorry for kelty hearts and Brora though.


I wouldn't feel sad for Brora. They had a chance to get in the league a few years back and decided they didn't want to.
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 Re: 14-14-14
Topic Originator: GG Riva  
Date:   Mon 27 Apr 18:52

Quote:

saltonsgonagetu, Mon 27 Apr 16:51

League 2 clubs have agreed to back a 14-14-14 league reconstruction ,which means the chances of any other format getting passed look slim.
The Elgin City chairman has said it may not be required as in 10 weeks time , more than one club may have gone bust .
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/amp/football/52439324?__twitter_impression=true


Not sure why you think a different proposal couldn't garner more votes. League 2 clubs would never be allowed to dictate to the bigger clubs. I don't know if we're finally back to one club one vote, but if all clubs are equal, to paraphrase George Orwell, "Some clubs are more equal than others."



Not your average Sunday League player.
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 Re: 14-14-14
Topic Originator: jake89  
Date:   Mon 27 Apr 18:53

Surely this should mean Dundee going up and Hearts coming down? No? Sporting integrity and all that? No? Anyone?
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 Re: 14-14-14
Topic Originator: neils  
Date:   Mon 27 Apr 19:12

Well it's not so straightforward for Brora, if you've ever been there, it's really a long, long way from even Inverness, and has the population of Aberdour, so to run a full season in the seniors is pretty tough.

Anyway they have never turned it down, they just miraculously managed to lose against Coodenbeath!
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 Re: 14-14-14
Topic Originator: AdamAntsParsStripe  
Date:   Mon 27 Apr 19:15

Sounds good but as was said, A 7-7 split wouldn't work due to one team having a free week every round of fixtures after the split.
I think as far as voting goes, it requires 71% of all clubs in the league to make it pass.

If you only turn up to moan then do it elsewhere
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 Re: 14-14-14
Topic Originator: General Zod  
Date:   Mon 27 Apr 19:50

Let’s do something new and progressive that the fans want. But only do it for one season. Aye, that’s definitely Scottish football. Depressing.
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 Re: 14-14-14
Topic Originator: Parahandy  
Date:   Mon 27 Apr 20:20

Don’t remember Brora v Cowden play off!!?
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 Re: 14-14-14
Topic Originator: jake89  
Date:   Mon 27 Apr 20:35

Quote:

General Zod, Mon 27 Apr 19:50

Let’s do something new and progressive that the fans want. But only do it for one season. Aye, that’s definitely Scottish football. Depressing.


You're missing the point. This ensure Hearts don't get relegated. It could be any combination of numbers for all Anne Budge cares. As long as we're all agreed that Hearts are NOT relegated despite being utter gash.
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 Re: 14-14-14
Topic Originator: neils  
Date:   Mon 27 Apr 20:40

Your right, it was Edinburgh city they 'tried' against I think.
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 Re: 14-14-14
Topic Originator: helensburghpar  
Date:   Mon 27 Apr 21:19

Cowden beat Cove three two in the second leg of the 2018 play off final. Cove were winning two one at one point
Cove finished the game with eight men. First leg finished nil nil.



Post Edited (Mon 27 Apr 21:28)
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 Re: 14-14-14
Topic Originator: Parahandy  
Date:   Mon 27 Apr 21:47

Montrose
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 Re: 14-14-14
Topic Originator: kelty_par  
Date:   Mon 27 Apr 21:50

Of course the League Two sides will love this - they are all now 2 promotions away from the Premiership rather than three, there is no relegation this season which saves Brechin and Cove essentially stat where they are compared to last season!
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 Re: 14-14-14
Topic Originator: Socks  
Date:   Mon 27 Apr 22:04

It would be great if the clubs in the bottom division clubs vetoed an alternative Ann Budge proposal and sent Hearts down. She'd be greeting about it for weeks and it would be hilarious.

On GG's question about whether or not it's one club, one vote - it is, but not really. Each club gets a single vote but they don't all have the same influence. Depending what is proposed it needs the following support to pass.

No change to money distribution and no change to number of clubs:

75% of top division clubs (9/12)
75% of second tier clubs (8/10)
75% of third + 4th tier clubs combined (15/20)

If there's a chagne in money distribution or number of clubs in the league:

90% of top division clubs (11/12)
75% of clubs in the top two divisions (17/22)
75% of clubs across all four divisions (32/42)
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 Re: 14-14-14
Topic Originator: jake89  
Date:   Mon 27 Apr 22:36

Surely reconstruction needs to look at a more even distribution of funding too?

What happens to Hearts' parachute payment if they don't get relegated? Should it go to the overall 18th placed team in the leagues for sporting integrity reasons?
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 Re: 14-14-14
Topic Originator: dafc  
Date:   Mon 27 Apr 23:47

Shocking idea, it has went from 14 10 10 10 to this, no pyramid promotion, self interest agin.
Good to see Clyde distancing themselves from 14 14 14
3 times a season, you can hear the arguments already if we end up twice at dens and falkirk and so om.
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 Re: 14-14-14
Topic Originator: Rigger Al  
Date:   Tue 28 Apr 01:00

Should not only be for 1 season ,i would say at least 3 seasons
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 Re: 14-14-14
Topic Originator: DulochConvert  
Date:   Tue 28 Apr 02:09

Plus dafc our only home game against Falkirk & Dundee would no doubt be on Friday night TV!
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 Re: 14-14-14
Topic Originator: DBP  
Date:   Tue 28 Apr 06:52

If its for one season then its a no from me. Hearts started this campaign knowing finishing in bottom world last to relegation and after 30 games are bottom.
All of this commotion (for one year) to save hearts from relegation, really!?!?
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 Re: 14-14-14
Topic Originator: DBP  
Date:   Tue 28 Apr 06:52

User error - posted twice somehow!

Post Edited (Tue 28 Apr 06:54)
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 Re: 14-14-14
Topic Originator: GG Riva  
Date:   Tue 28 Apr 07:17

Quote:

Socks, Mon 27 Apr 22:04

On GG's question about whether or not it's one club, one vote - it is, but not really. Each club gets a single vote but they don't all have the same influence. Depending what is proposed it needs the following support to pass.

No change to money distribution and no change to number of clubs:

75% of top division clubs (9/12)
75% of second tier clubs (8/10)
75% of third + 4th tier clubs combined (15/20)

If there's a chagne in money distribution or number of clubs in the league:

90% of top division clubs (11/12)
75% of clubs in the top two divisions (17/22)
75% of clubs across all four divisions (32/42)


Thanks for the clarification, Socks. You're perhaps too young to remember when we last had a 3 league set up. Any reconstruction proposal required a simple majority, IIRC, but the 10 top flight clubs had 4 votes each, so they could easily outvote the 28 clubs in the two lower leagues.

Now that's what I call alternative democracy.



Not your average Sunday League player.
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 Re: 14-14-14
Topic Originator: elvis_lives  
Date:   Tue 28 Apr 07:36

Quote:

GJS93, Mon 27 Apr 18:33

here is what the league 2 teams agreed on

http://www.stirlingalbionfc.co.uk/club-statement-on-reconstruction/

basically its for 1 season.
play each other 3 times but basically its going to be home and away to make 26 games.
nothing mentioned about promotion, relegation, playoffs.

that might all change and still be agreeable to league 2 teams but I still cant see it happening.

any split if that was added wouldn't be 7-7 with a team having a week off, it would be likely 6-8. having a split after 26 games with another 10 or 14 to play after it, no thanks!
what we have now isn't perfect but its still far more acceptable than 14-14-14 or 14-10-10-10.


The Stenhousemuir chairman was on the radio on Saturday and my recollection was that he was firmly against a temporary change.
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 Re: 14-14-14
Topic Originator: 1970par  
Date:   Tue 28 Apr 07:43

What happens if there is a big club at the bottom the league next season?
Do they appoint that teams representative chairperson of the reconstruction group three quarters of the way through the the season looking to put the following seasons plan in place?

I suggest that if the team who bottom at that time is one of St Mirren, Hamilton, Ross County or Inverness then there wouldn’t be an appetite for it
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 Re: 14-14-14
Topic Originator: OzPar  
Date:   Tue 28 Apr 08:20

Permanent change or nothing.

Otherwise, it will (correctly) be interpreted as a contemptible and corrupt attempt to stop Hearts from being relegated.
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 Re: 14-14-14
Topic Originator: Buspasspar  
Date:   Tue 28 Apr 08:32

this ^^^^
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 Re: 14-14-14
Topic Originator: aaaaaaaaaargh  
Date:   Tue 28 Apr 08:35

Let's face it, the only structure that would really work would be 6-12-12-12.

The OF would get to play each other 6 or 8 times. The diddy clubs would still get to join them at the big table and have a shot at European qualification from time to time, and the three other leagues don't have to mess about with weekends off or league splits which would clearly destroy our perfect game.
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 Re: 14-14-14
Topic Originator: yorkiepar  
Date:   Tue 28 Apr 08:38

My recollection of the previous three league set-up is that, with three quarters of the season completed, teams who were in the middle of the league - and with little or no chance of promotion or relegation - kind of gave up the fight and the attendance at games fell away as supporters lost interest.
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 Re: 14-14-14
Topic Originator: OzPar  
Date:   Tue 28 Apr 10:10

What is not being said, but is very much a factor for the survival of the game, is that while the premier league teams will be getting regulated and doubtless sponsor-supported live stream/televised games in front of empty stands, the rest of the Scottish clubs (ourselves included) will most likely be left to their own devices.

This is the Armageddon scenario for a lot of the smaller clubs.
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 Re: 14-14-14
Topic Originator: Mr P  
Date:   Tue 28 Apr 10:10

There is no reason not to have 14-14-16 and use the parachute payment to pay for the prize money with the two more in the league, I also would want it to be permanent for at least 5 seasons, otherwise its self interest yet again.
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 Re: 14-14-14
Topic Originator: DunfyDave  
Date:   Tue 28 Apr 10:14

I'm all for two leagues of 20 - 20 with automatic 3 down / 3 up and a more proportionate distribution of funds equal to teams end league position.

Happy for both Rangers and Celtic to leave to greener/blue'er pastures.

DunfyDave
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 Re: 14-14-14
Topic Originator: veteraneastender  
Date:   Tue 28 Apr 10:41

"Happy for both Rangers and Celtic to leave to greener/blue'er pastures."

That would be the biggest disaster to befall Scottish Football IMO.
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 Re: 14-14-14
Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks  
Date:   Tue 28 Apr 10:46

It would also be a disaster for the Old Firm.

Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd
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 Re: 14-14-14
Topic Originator: DunfyDave  
Date:   Tue 28 Apr 10:56

Ah you are probably right VEE - I might have knee jerked somewhat in my post.

Just not keen on the smaller teams always getting bullied by the bigger teams.

DunfyDave
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 Re: 14-14-14
Topic Originator: Row_ZZ  
Date:   Tue 28 Apr 13:11

Let's be honest, this is only being done now to appease the likes of Hearts and Partick.

There's no easy solution. Ending the season and relegating/promoting bottom teams the only realistic option tbh. Can't see them changing the top flight to any more than 14 teams, if they even will. The OF have got to have their 4 games and it can't happen in a league with any more than 14 teams.

Would they not be better just extending the top flight to 14 teams, promoting top 2 of each league in the process, and promoting Kelty and Brora to League 2, so you're just effectively increasing the pool of teams, everyone's a champion, no-one gets relegated. Happy days?



I Know There's Gonna Be (Good Times)

Post Edited (Tue 28 Apr 13:29)
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 Re: 14-14-14
Topic Originator: par_33  
Date:   Tue 28 Apr 13:49

I certainly wouldn't be letting clubs like, Elgin, Annan n Stenny decide n push forward proposals for the future of Scottish football. However I believe for this to happen..no more than 1 premiership team can reject it, would have to be 12-0 or 11-1 vote.

14-14-14 isn't the worst thing..but I feel awfy sorry for Kelty. Personally I just think clubs like Stenny are worried Kelty would come up n push them even closer to relegation.
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 Re: 14-14-14
Topic Originator: RhinoPars  
Date:   Tue 28 Apr 13:50

Yorkie wrote.. "My recollection of the previous three league set-up is that, with three quarters of the season completed, teams who were in the middle of the league - and with little or no chance of promotion or relegation - kind of gave up the fight and the attendance at games fell away as supporters lost interest."

They solved that problem in South Africa's top league of 16 by having a prestigious early-season Top8 knockout cup competition. This is an unusual competition with the winner taking most of the prize money and the other 7 participating clubs each getting about 1/10th of what the winner gets. Towards the end of the season the clubs towards the top are either fighting for the league title and/or to qualify for African competition qualification. Those in the middle of the table are striving to get into the Top8, so they can play in the Top 8 competition next season, while those towards the bottom are trying to avoid being sucked into the relegation zone. Thus there is something to play for in most matches towards the end of most seasons. Our "Big2"teams also have an annual pre-season challenge match for a trophy. However, the problem of mid-table boredom towards the end of the season could still occur in the lower leagues (who don't have a Top8 trophy).

It won't happen because of the short term self-interest of the largest clubs but my preference for Scotland would still be a 16, 14, 14 set up (including Lowland and Highland league winners in the interest of sporting integrity). I would also like to see a more equitable distribution of TV and gate income to help the smaller clubs and improve competitiveness (and hence marketability and TV attractiveness) of the league.

The proposed 14,14,14 set up is certainly a marked improvement with Falkirk, Raith and East Fife derbies returning. However, I agree with Oz and others - that any new structure needs to be in place for at least a few years so it is not just a temporary fudge to help Hearts avoid relegation this season. As others have intimated - would we be discussing reorganisation if less well supported Ross Co or Hamilton Accies had been bottom of the Premiership ?
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 Re: 14-14-14
Topic Originator: Stanza  
Date:   Tue 28 Apr 13:58

Kelty Hearts have just tweeted a statement that they are prepared to forego their share of the prize money next season if they are admitted to the SPFL.

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 Re: 14-14-14
Topic Originator: par_33  
Date:   Tue 28 Apr 14:02

Would Kelty really do that if they went into League 2 and won it?
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 Re: 14-14-14
Topic Originator: GJS93  
Date:   Tue 28 Apr 14:37

"Personally I just think clubs like Stenny are worried Kelty would come up n push them even closer to relegation"

of course they are and its perfectly reasonable for them to think like that if you ask me.
its harsh on Kelty or Brora to miss out on a playoff chance which only one could earn to get into league 2 but there are teams in the league in the same boat ie missing out on a playoff promotion chance, I don't see any calls for all of those to be promoted too. the offer Kelty are making wont change many if any clubs stance I would guess.



Post Edited (Tue 28 Apr 14:48)
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 Re: 14-14-14
Topic Originator: evo!  
Date:   Tue 28 Apr 15:05

I dont completely hate the 14 team idea across 3 leagues, but agree with Row-ZZ surely just increasing top flight to 14, avoiding all teams being relegated and bringing up Brora and Kelty is much easier.

Avoid convoluted splits or odd numbers of home v away (at least outside premier league) and above all doesnt need to be temporary. However if it is, then better that being temporary. switching back from 14-14-14 to 12-10-10-10 seems a nightmare (though it removes what league to increase to 12 due to Kelty and Brora.

I say just keep it simple. INcrease premier to 14...rest stay 10 ..keep it that way.

I dont doubt there are flaws, but surely its the least inconvenient option if nothing else.
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 Re: 14-14-14
Topic Originator: AdamAntsParsStripe  
Date:   Tue 28 Apr 15:06

Quote:

par_33, Tue 28 Apr 13:49

I certainly wouldn't be letting clubs like, Elgin, Annan n Stenny decide n push forward proposals for the future of Scottish football. However I believe for this to happen..no more than 1 premiership team can reject it, would have to be 12-0 or 11-1 vote.


I think the 11-1 rule only applies to votes on the Premier League.
From what I gather if 75% of all clubs back a proposal, it is passed.

If you only turn up to moan then do it elsewhere
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 Re: 14-14-14
Topic Originator: eastendalloapar  
Date:   Tue 28 Apr 15:08

If Hearts and Partick avoid relegation and there is no promotion place for Kelty and Brora, I just wonder if I will have the enthusiasm to go back to games. This 14,14,14 stinks and sticks in my throat.

matt forsyth
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 Re: 14-14-14
Topic Originator: Ben,D.A  
Date:   Tue 28 Apr 15:13

Topic Originator: evo! like | nolike
Date: Tue 28 Apr 15:05

"I dont completely hate the 14 team idea across 3 leagues, but agree with Row-ZZ surely just increasing top flight to 14, avoiding all teams being relegated and bringing up Brora and Kelty is much easier."

That does sound so much easier, but to introduce 2 new teams would need redistribution of pay outs by the leagues and that would need voted on with the premiership holding the 11-1 vote.

only 11 make the team,the rest can just but dream.
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 Re: 14-14-14
Topic Originator: Lambo1885  
Date:   Tue 28 Apr 16:01

"above all doesnt need to be temporary. However if it is, then better that being temporary. switching back from 14-14-14 to 12-10-10-10 seems a nightmare"

It's absolutely pointless if it's temporary, other than keeping Hearts up, and totally fecks up their 'sporting integrity' nonsense.
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 Re: 14-14-14
Topic Originator: Bandy  
Date:   Tue 28 Apr 16:11

My view is it should stay as is - I'd rather there were a couple of unlucky teams (Hearts and Patrick) than they mess around with fabric of the game to appease them.

The current set up isn't great, 14-14-14 ain't any better, and shouldn't be introduced just to save Hearts and Partick.

Also - much as I think Hearts should be relegated, equally, Dundee shouldn't be promoted in their place. That'd be twice in less than 10 years that Dundee get an unearned promotion.

Yes, I'm still bitter that we were relegated that season, when we were 'victims' of Rangers' cheating an subsequent demise, and Dundee weren't.
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 Re: 14-14-14
Topic Originator: red-star-par  
Date:   Tue 28 Apr 20:58

The clubs in the lower leagues won't want to do anything that lets both Brora and Kelty in. They will be quite happy with the current playoff structure and won't want a situation where there is automatic relegation to the fifth tier, aware there are a lot of big former junior sides ready to replace them
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 Re: 14-14-14
Topic Originator: Sliema Par  
Date:   Wed 29 Apr 07:11

14-14-14 does tick most boxes.

See the article on DAFC.net.

It is a waste of breath discussing scenarios involving a top tier of 16 or the 18 my generation fondly remembers.

Robbie Neilson ,Michael Stewart,Tom English and others have pointed out that SKY will not countenance more than 14.

I am just pleased that clubs are demanding this be a permanent change,

We should welcome the large Gates with eg Raith Rovers, Falkirk,Dundee and Partick Thistle and the far greater prospect of promotion to the Premiership, and then a greater likelihood of staying there.

There is barely one club, outwith the Premiership, which is opposed.
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 Re: 14-14-14
Topic Originator: Socks  
Date:   Wed 29 Apr 09:39

12-10-10-10 ticks all boxes.

See my superb, brilliantly written sequence of posts on the subject.

It is a waste of breath discussing scenarios involving a second tier of 14 that my generation remembers with no fondness.

Robbie Neilson, Michael Stewart, Tom English and Willie Miller have shown themselves to be slavering hoors in recent weeks who do not understand the various processes.

I am just pleased that there is a chance of maintaining the current system, and that temporary reconstruction is looking less likely.

We should welcome the certainty of having two higher than normal attendances against Raith Rovers and two more against Hearts, rather than the prospect of only one each against Raith Rovers and Falkirk that a 14-team division would bring. And we should not mourn the loss of games against Partick Thistle in the slightest, where attendance is about average.

Other than those unhappy about being relegated due to being hopeless, there is barely one club opposed. Of course I haven't done any canvassing at all, but just feel like stating that as fact regardless.
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 Re: 14-14-14
Topic Originator: dafc-chris1  
Date:   Wed 29 Apr 10:13

14-14-14 looks like it is the only option that could possibly get enough backing if the clubs in League two stick to their guns about not backing any other option
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 Re: 14-14-14
Topic Originator: veteraneastender  
Date:   Wed 29 Apr 10:51

All these permutations are comparable to rearranging the lifeboats on the Titantic.

Not that I have much time for Ann Budge, however her previous position that there were too many clubs in the SPFL was/is correct.

When I started following the Pars there were two Divisions, one of 18, the other of 19.

The latter meant that one club had an idle Saturday in rotation - this was resolved by the addition of Clydebank in the mid '60's.

Sadly the demise of Third Lanark in 1967 restored the imbalance.

Then we come to 1975 and major restructuring, which incidentally was disasterous for DAFC, relegation in successive seasons to the third and lowest tier.

There's been a whean of tinkering since then but the fundemental issue of too many clubs in the main leagues has not been addressed.

Battle bowler firmly on head and taking cover !!!
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 Re: 14-14-14
Topic Originator: Sliema Par  
Date:   Wed 29 Apr 10:55

As long as SKY, with their £160m funding, insist they will only countenance a top tier of 14, there is little room for manoeuvre .

I only know of Peterhead and Clyde who have gone public condemning the proposal.

Tom English, The BBC Scotland Sports Corespondent, has spoken to every Championship club and they are overwhelmingly in favour.

As Pars Fans, we must surely consider this from the point of view of our club.

I want to see the enhanced attendances with Raith Rovers and Falkirk and more opportunity to be promoted and stay there.

The present structure and income distribution work against Dunfermline.
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 Re: 14-14-14
Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks  
Date:   Wed 29 Apr 11:01

Why do you think there would be more opportunity to be promoted and stay there? If there is more opportunity to be promoted then isn't there is also more opportunity to be relegated once there?

Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd
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 Re: 14-14-14
Topic Originator: Lambo1885  
Date:   Wed 29 Apr 11:26

I'm with Socks. It's not broken and doesn't need fixing. We're only fecking about with it because Hearts are bottom and they're trying to keep them sweet. If they're happy to make Utd, Raith and Cove the champions, then they have to happily relegate Hearts, Partick and Starnraer.
If there truly is an appetite for reconstruction, then take time to discuss it fully and rationally and then implement it at the end of next season, whenever that may be.

And Tom English is a slaver.
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 Re: 14-14-14
Topic Originator: Sliema Par  
Date:   Wed 29 Apr 11:26

We would be one of 14 clubs.Hence less chance of going through the trap door.

With more finance and bigger Gates than half the Premuership ,it would be a self fulfilling prophecy
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 Re: 14-14-14
Topic Originator: parsfan  
Date:   Wed 29 Apr 12:19

We would be one of 14 clubs. Hence less chance of going up through the trap door.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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 Re: 14-14-14
Topic Originator: jake89  
Date:   Wed 29 Apr 12:31

There is nothing wrong with the current structure. This is a joke situation being debated to save an Edinburgh club.
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 Re: 14-14-14
Topic Originator: veteraneastender  
Date:   Wed 29 Apr 12:55

"We would be one of 14 clubs.Hence less chance of going through the trap door."

Therefore also less chance of promotion.
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 Re: 14-14-14
Topic Originator: GJS93  
Date:   Wed 29 Apr 13:46

Socks 1 Sliema Par 0....

"larger" gates that might only be once a season depending where you finish before a split HALF way through a season?
if it was no split and play each other three times, you would not get all of those teams at home twice so are losing some of the "larger" gates.

it is apparently unfair to relegate Hearts, Partick and Stranraer....but it is fair to save Hearts and Partick but relegate Clyde and Peterhead who aren't even in relegation spots alongside Forfar and Stranraer, nonsense!



Post Edited (Wed 29 Apr 14:01)
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 Re: 14-14-14
Topic Originator: Sliema Par  
Date:   Wed 29 Apr 14:38

I hadn't realised Clyde and Peterhead were being relegated to League 2.

I must have missed it......
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 Re: 14-14-14
Topic Originator: Stanza  
Date:   Wed 29 Apr 16:01

I hadn't realised Clyde and Peterhead were being relegated to League 2.

I must have missed it......


On a 14-14-14 split, how else can you get 14 clubs in the bottom division (whatever it is called)?

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 Re: 14-14-14
Topic Originator: AdamAntsParsStripe  
Date:   Wed 29 Apr 16:06

Quote:

Stanza, Wed 29 Apr 16:01

I hadn't realised Clyde and Peterhead were being relegated to League 2.

I must have missed it......


On a 14-14-14 split, how else can you get 14 clubs in the bottom division (whatever it is called)?


How's it relegation though with only 3 leagues instead of 4?

If you only turn up to moan then do it elsewhere
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 Re: 14-14-14
Topic Originator: eastendalloapar  
Date:   Wed 29 Apr 16:17

This is a farce. It only because of Ann Budge this is getting spoken about. Hearts should be relegated but because of her pulling the league strings they won't be. In all honesty I thought that Scottish football had joined the 21st century and we had a pyramid system at long last. However because of a virus scare and Hearts being bottom of the league the top of Scottish football is getting altered.

matt forsyth
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 Re: 14-14-14
Topic Originator: Playup_Pompey  
Date:   Wed 29 Apr 16:39

If you are doing it do it for good and for the good of the scottish game not for 1 season to appease the whining going on from a small number of clubs who in all honesty were dugsh!t over 30 games and bottom of the league for a reason. Voting it through now then teams due to be promoted next season etc dont get promoted as league is now being returned to 12-10-10-10.

Until we know when we will be back not much point in discussing as sure 2-3 clubs may not be able to financially continue for an extended period without income of gates etc and even then starting back we have no guarantee crowds will be part of things this side of 2021.

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 Re: 14-14-14
Topic Originator: DBP  
Date:   Wed 29 Apr 17:49

exactly playup - hearts have had 30 opportunities to not be bottom of the league and have failed, still rooted to the relegation spot.

this isn't a boardroom decision, this is an on-field decisions, hearts have been gash all season and deservedly in automatic relegation spot.... yes there's a few games left but league tables don't lie and 30 games in, they are bottom (and even if they managed to somehow scrape themselves off bottom spot, in the current system, that still doesn't mean they are safe)

we're more than far enough into the season to call it as it stands... so lets do that and move on.

after hearts are relegated, if all the football teams are still as keen for restructure (and i'd argue the interest would probably wane a bit), then lets spend a good amount of time to get it right, make sure it's done for the right reasons and for the good of scottish football as a whole and not the self interest of a few whiners because they don't like where they find themselves this far into the season and don't want to accept the consequences of their performances to date
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 Re: 14-14-14
Topic Originator: GG Riva  
Date:   Wed 29 Apr 18:17

Quote:

veteraneastender, Wed 29 Apr 10:51

All these permutations are comparable to rearranging the lifeboats on the Titantic.

There's been a whean of tinkering since then (1975) but the fundemental issue of too many clubs in the main leagues has not been addressed.

Battle bowler firmly on head and taking cover !!!


How many league clubs do you think there should be, VEE, and who would you guillotine? Rangers proposed 2 leagues of 16 as a panacea for the Scottish game, in 1965. They suggested that Berwick, East Stirlingshire, Stenhousemuir, Stranraer and one other, whose name escapes me, be thrown out. Maybe they had a premonition about a SC trip to Sheilfield a couple of years later? 🙂

I have to ask - how do these small clubs have a negative impact on the Scottish game? They are invariably well run and self sufficient. Any hand out they receive from the SPFL is peanuts compared to what the Premiership clubs rake in and completely insignificant - if need be these clubs would survive without. Football needs competition at different levels, with promotion and relegation, to thrive.



Not your average Sunday League player.
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 Re: 14-14-14
Topic Originator: DA-go Par Adonis  
Date:   Wed 29 Apr 18:47

The 2nd biggest club in the country went into liquidation. In contrast, there are a bunch of clubs in the lower leagues who operate within their means.

Rather than wipe them off the face of the earth for the sake of it, maybe we should be holding them up as an example to follow?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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And every touch is goal la la la, it's goal la la la,
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 Re: 14-14-14
Topic Originator: jake89  
Date:   Wed 29 Apr 18:52

Are Hearts fans embarrassed by this? I'd be utterly ashamed if this was the Pars.
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 Re: 14-14-14
Topic Originator: GG Riva  
Date:   Wed 29 Apr 20:11

Quote:

jake89, Wed 29 Apr 18:52

Are Hearts fans embarrassed by this? I'd be utterly ashamed if this was the Pars.


You think so, Jake? Most of them'll be no more embarrassed than Ann Budge, I reckon.



Not your average Sunday League player.
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 Re: 14-14-14
Topic Originator: jake89  
Date:   Wed 29 Apr 21:18

If they finish 12th or 13th next season will we see a sudden cancellation of the plans for this to be a temporary change?

Doncaster should get his jotters for overseeing this utter embarrassment.
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 Re: 14-14-14
Topic Originator: DBP  
Date:   Wed 29 Apr 21:29

Quote:

GG Riva, Wed 29 Apr 20:11

Quote:

jake89, Wed 29 Apr 18:52

Are Hearts fans embarrassed by this? I'd be utterly ashamed if this was the Pars.


You think so, Jake? Most of them'll be no more embarrassed than Ann Budge, I reckon.


The hearts fans i know all day the league should be declared null and void as it hasn't been completed, that they shouldn't be relegated because they wouldn't have ended up bottom and that celtic shouldn't be given the title because they didn't actually win it

Post Edited (Wed 29 Apr 21:30)
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 Re: 14-14-14
Topic Originator: veteraneastender  
Date:   Wed 29 Apr 23:25

"I have to ask - how do these small clubs have a negative impact on the Scottish game? They are invariably well run and self sufficient. Any hand out they receive from the SPFL is peanuts compared to what the Premiership clubs rake in and completely insignificant - if need be these clubs would survive without. Football needs competition at different levels, with promotion and relegation, to thrive"

I think it was you GG, who a couple or so years ago, pointed out that competition and quality were not the same - with the school sports sack race as an example of the former while lacking the latter quality.

The attendance at some of these small clubs is not up to qualifying then for a place in the senior leagues - they could play inregional lower leagues - like East Stirlingshire, for example.
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 Re: 14-14-14
Topic Originator: GG Riva  
Date:   Thu 30 Apr 06:53

Quote:

veteraneastender, Wed 29 Apr 23:25

"I have to ask - how do these small clubs have a negative impact on the Scottish game? They are invariably well run and self sufficient. Any hand out they receive from the SPFL is peanuts compared to what the Premiership clubs rake in and completely insignificant - if need be these clubs would survive without. Football needs competition at different levels, with promotion and relegation, to thrive"

I think it was you GG, who a couple or so years ago, pointed out that competition and quality were not the same - with the school sports sack race as an example of the former while lacking the latter quality.

The attendance at some of these small clubs is not up to qualifying then for a place in the senior leagues - they could play inregional lower leagues - like East Stirlingshire, for example.


It wasn't me, VEE, or I have no recollection at any rate, but I don't think it's relevant to the point I was trying to make, which is that the Brechins, Elgins and Stenhousemuirs have no significant impact on Scottish football. Wiping them out would not solve the problems of bigger clubs - financial or other, so any assertion that "there are too many league clubs for a small country like Scotland" is just a red herring.

I'd suggest the do no harm whatsoever, but do some good, providing a focus for their local communities and a platform for young players who are not hoovered up by the bigger clubs, especially you I'm now who. Please tell me you're not an advocate of the Rangers '65 proposal.



Not your average Sunday League player.
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 Re: 14-14-14
Topic Originator: veteraneastender  
Date:   Thu 30 Apr 09:32

"It wasn't me, VEE, or I have no recollection at any rate, but I don't think it's relevant to the point I was trying to make, which is that the Brechins, Elgins and Stenhousemuirs have no significant impact on Scottish football. Wiping them out would not solve the problems of bigger clubs - financial or other, so any assertion that "there are too many league clubs for a small country like Scotland" is just a red herring."

Brechin is an interesting nomination.

Promoted to the Championship (unserevedly IMO, however that's another issue) a couple or so seasons ago and proceeded to go the whole campaign without a single win - now they have slumped to bottom of the lowest tier with a miserable four victories.

There should be a lower league outside the SPFL where the small clubs can compete with a promotion incentive to SPFL lowest tier.

If these clubs have no significant impact - why are they in the bigger league setup ?

The 1960s Rangers ploy, if memory serves, was an attempt to even out the odd number of clubs in the lower league and create two divisions of the same size.

This was resolved by adding one club, which backfired when Third Lanark went bust.
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 Re: 14-14-14
Topic Originator: wee eck  
Date:   Thu 30 Apr 09:48

''There should be a lower league outside the SPFL where the small clubs can compete with a promotion incentive to SPFL lowest tier.''

Don't we have that just now with the Highland and Lowland Leagues?
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 Re: 14-14-14
Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks  
Date:   Thu 30 Apr 10:38

Brechin were promoted to the championship through on field achievements. Struggling to see how it could be viewed as undeserved.

Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd
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 Re: 14-14-14
Topic Originator: GG Riva  
Date:   Thu 30 Apr 11:52

Quote:

veteraneastender, Thu 30 Apr 09:32

The 1960s Rangers ploy, if memory serves, was an attempt to even out the odd number of clubs in the lower league and create two divisions of the same size.

This was resolved by adding one club, which backfired when Third Lanark went bust.


You're no Sammer, VEE. Your powers of recall are probably closer to my level. ☹

If Rangers had simply wanted to even out the odd number (19) clubs in Division 2, the easiest solution would have been, as you allude, to invite another club to join the league set up. The truth is that the Ibrox club thought there were too many diddy clubs in the First Division and suggested trimming it to 16. To preserve some symmetry, they proposed the axeing of 5 clubs to leave a total of 32.

I remember it very clearly, because as a fan of a "big" club myself, I thought it would be a good idea to get rid of some of these diddy clubs which invariably propped up the Second Division, year after year. In my defence, I was 12. Little did I imagine that, less than 20 years later, the Pars would be down there amongst them. ☹

I've even remembered the 5th club Rangers wanted to punt. Albion Rovers.



Not your average Sunday League player.
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 Re: 14-14-14
Topic Originator: veteraneastender  
Date:   Thu 30 Apr 12:14

"Brechin were promoted to the championship through on field achievements. Struggling to see how it could be viewed as undeserved."

Based on the dubious playoff system which does not reward clubs fairly IMO for season long results.

Brechin beat Alloa on penalties, after extra time, in the final play off match - on the basis of one penalty more converted

I'd have to check the stats out - but from memory (always suspect) the Wasps had finished second, won more games, drawn and lost fewer, scored more goals and conceded less and had a decent positive goal difference - Brechin were fourth and recorded a negative goal difference, as well as inferior stats in comparison.

Going the whole of the next season without a single league victory, a unique first in Scottsh Football history (AFAIK) was proof that they didn't deserve to be there in the first place.
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 Re: 14-14-14
Topic Originator: neils  
Date:   Thu 30 Apr 12:27

I never got the antipathy towards the diddy clubs, they take nothing away from the game, and can balance the books, unlike Dundee, livi, Airdrieonians and us!

Anyway, Im a fan of the wee teams, and when it existed the juniors.

If a club has 300 fans, it still means a lot, and if they compete, even better.

I like the look of this pyramid system, providing there are enough promotion and relegation then each club will more or less find its level- also gives a reason for clubs to upgrade facilities.

Scottish football can easily support four tiers and more, and definitely I don't want these teams to be thrown aside.

GG on a side note, was ES Clydebank not part of this evening up?
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 Re: 14-14-14
Topic Originator: wee eck  
Date:   Thu 30 Apr 12:31

Play-offs have been a part of sporting competitions all over the world for ages now. Their attraction is that they give more teams a chance of being involved in meaningful games right up to the end of the league season and possibly beyond. Brechin aren't the first club to excel over other clubs which were more consistent over the season but everyone knows the way it works before a ball is kicked.

Well, normally they do...
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 Re: 14-14-14
Topic Originator: GG Riva  
Date:   Thu 30 Apr 12:48

Quote:

neils, Thu 30 Apr 12:27

I never got the antipathy towards the diddy clubs, they take nothing away from the game, and can balance the books, unlike Dundee, livi, Airdrieonians and us!

Anyway, Im a fan of the wee teams, and when it existed the juniors.

If a club has 300 fans, it still means a lot, and if they compete, even better.

I like the look of this pyramid system, providing there are enough promotion and relegation then each club will more or less find its level- also gives a reason for clubs to upgrade facilities.

Scottish football can easily support four tiers and more, and definitely I don't want these teams to be thrown aside.

GG on a side note, was ES Clydebank not part of this evening up?


No Neils, ES Clydebank was short for East Stirlingshire Clydebank. The Steedman brothers bought the Shore for a song and moved them lock, stock and barrel to Clydebank. Later, the club split and ES went back to Falkirk. I think this is what finally produced an even number of teams in Division 2.



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 Re: 14-14-14
Topic Originator: neils  
Date:   Thu 30 Apr 13:34

Yes, I thought that, wasn't the Clydebank enclosure roof nicked from the then vacant Firs Park.

Clydebank now ground sharing with Yoker at a refurbished Holm Park, and about to enter the senior set up.

E. Stirlingshire struggled, now ground sharing at Grangemouth, and improved a bit.

Be interesting to see how they get on. Berwick look goosed.
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 Re: 14-14-14
Topic Originator: DBP  
Date:   Thu 30 Apr 20:35

i have a question about life after the temporary reconstruction to 14-14-14, i.e. when we go back down to current set up of 12-10-10-10

so assuming that with leagues of 14, there will be 2 clubs promoted

That would mean that to transition back the leagues would look like:

spl - 10 existing spl teams plus 2 promoted teams from championship (relegating 4 teams)

championship - 4 existing championship teams plus 4 relegated spl teams plus 2 teams promoted from league one (relegating 8 teams)

league one - 2 existing league one teams plus 8 relegated championship teams

league two - 10 relegated league one teams



that in itself is carnage and not worth the change, no matter who it's saving
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 Re: 14-14-14
Topic Originator: Buspasspar  
Date:   Thu 30 Apr 20:42

That is a brilliant synopsis DBP and perhaps to the level that no one else including Doncaster and Budge have even thought about or planned for in their clamour to save a BIG team from relegation Fek the wee teams

You are right it is a bloodbath
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 Re: 14-14-14
Topic Originator: DunfyDave  
Date:   Fri 1 May 10:12

Very well worked out DBP

Fans might become disillusioned with such a tsunami of relegations and give up on Scottish football altogether heaping more strain on smaller cash-strapped clubs.

This needs careful thought with long-term planning and commitment. Not this suggested temporary scenario.

DunfyDave
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 Re: 14-14-14
Topic Originator: jake89  
Date:   Fri 1 May 11:29

This may be revolutionary, and I'm surprised noone has thought of this...

We structure 12-10-10-10.

Stay with me.

We have a top league called something like "The Scottish Premiership". The league below needs to signify that it's still important, but not as important as the top league. I'm proposing "The Scottish Championship". I suppose the leagues below could just be numbered 1 and 2.

The teams who are currently top are champions, the ones at the bottom are relegated. We don't bother with play-offs this season to keep things simple.

What does everyone think? Good idea?
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 Re: 14-14-14
Topic Originator: parsfan  
Date:   Fri 1 May 11:34

Quote:

jake89, Fri 1 May 11:29

This may be revolutionary, and I'm surprised noone has thought of this...

We structure 12-10-10-10.

Stay with me.

We have a top league called something like "The Scottish Premiership". The league below needs to signify that it's still important, but not as important as the top league. I'm proposing "The Scottish Championship". I suppose the leagues below could just be numbered 1 and 2.

The teams who are currently top are champions, the ones at the bottom are relegated. We don't bother with play-offs this season to keep things simple.

What does everyone think? Good idea?


I like that. Original, bold and, most of all, fair.

Well said sir.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The universe is ruled by chance and indifference
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 Re: 14-14-14
Topic Originator: DBP  
Date:   Fri 1 May 12:06

Jake89 - i think you may have cracked it mate!
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 Re: 14-14-14
Topic Originator: eastendalloapar  
Date:   Fri 1 May 14:37

Jake89, one massive mistake. Using your idea Hearts would be relegated. How dare you suggest that. Everyone in the world knows that Mrs Budge will not allow that to happen. Do you want to be beaten with her handbag.

matt forsyth
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 Re: 14-14-14
Topic Originator: jake89  
Date:   Fri 1 May 19:13

I've thought about Hearts. It's going to be hard for people to follow but I'll try.

If Hearts win some games next season they may earn a place in the Scottish Premiership. I think to do this they'll need to win more games than other teams. It seems so simple when you write it down.
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 Re: 14-14-14
Topic Originator: Tenruh  
Date:   Sat 2 May 07:13

Quote:

jake89, Fri 1 May 19:13

I've thought about Hearts. It's going to be hard for people to follow but I'll try.

If Hearts win some games next season they may earn a place in the Scottish Premiership. I think to do this they'll need to win more games than other teams. It seems so simple when you write it down.


Sevco and the Arab's didn't find it that simple
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 Re: 14-14-14
Topic Originator: Sliema Par  
Date:   Sat 2 May 07:22

The Media are reporting that 7 Premiership Clubs are supporting Permanent League Reconstruction.

3 more would support it if it were temporary.

The other 2 have said nothing publicly.

We will know more with BBC Radio Scotland "Sportsound" at 2pm today.

The significance is it would require 9 not 11 votes to bring about the change.
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 Re: 14-14-14
Topic Originator: the saline hill puma  
Date:   Sat 2 May 12:23

Quote:

Sliema Par, Sat 2 May 07:22

The significance is it would require 9 not 11 votes to bring about the change.


Only if their is no change to financial distribution based on where teams finish
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 Re: 14-14-14
Topic Originator: Socks  
Date:   Sat 2 May 12:31

If you're certain that it only needs 9 rather than 11, presumably Sliema Par has most of the detail on what is to be proposed. You must have because, as I have explained a few times, whether it needs 9 or 11 depends very much on the detail of what will change.

I know many people are in favour of reconstruction (I am not, as I've been clear about) but, even if you do want to see a change, surely one that's temporary is the worst possible outcome? There are no circumstances under which a temporary change is better than maintaining what we have. Absolutely none.
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 Re: 14-14-14
Topic Originator: AdamAntsParsStripe  
Date:   Sat 2 May 13:12

Should the SPFL remain at 42 clubs and prize money distribution stay the same, any plan would need 75% support.

But no other proposal would get the 15 votes needed in the bottom two tiers if the League Two clubs vote as planned.

The picture shifts slightly if the number of clubs was to be boosted by the introduction of Highland League champions Brora Rangers and Lowland League equivalents Kelty Hearts

In that scenario, any plan would need the approval of 11 of the 12 Premiership clubs, 17 in total from the top flight and Championship, and 32 of the current 42 in all divisions.

If you only turn up to moan then do it elsewhere
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 Re: 14-14-14
Topic Originator: JTH123  
Date:   Sun 3 May 23:12

Are any other leagues around Europe talking about reconstructing to avoid relegating teams?
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 Re: 14-14-14
Topic Originator: dafc  
Date:   Sun 3 May 23:47

Yes EPL are too discussing no relegation in order to get season finished playing at neutral grounds. A number of sides won't agree to neutral unless relegation off table.
Would still promote clubs.
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 Re: 14-14-14
Topic Originator: eastendalloapar  
Date:   Mon 4 May 13:55

Although I think that Hearts should be relegated I would enjoy playing against the Grangemouth team.

matt forsyth
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 Re: 14-14-14
Topic Originator: Sliema Par  
Date:   Tue 5 May 17:25

The Premiership Clubs will discuss a 14-14-16 set up on Thursday.

It is unlikely to pass as such a change in the articles of association requires a 11-1 vote.

A 14-14-14 structure is increasingly likely to be voted through on Friday.

7 Premiership Clubs have said publicly they would vote for a permanent structure, 3 would not mind it on a temporary basis and 2 will not be drawn.

A 9-3 vote is required.

The other three Divisions are overwhelmingly in favour.
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 Re: 14-14-14
Topic Originator: the saline hill puma  
Date:   Tue 5 May 17:30

Quote:

Sliema Par, Tue 5 May 17:25

The Premiership Clubs will discuss a 14-14-16 set up on Thursday.

It is unlikely to pass as such a change in the articles of association requires a 11-1 vote.

A 14-14-14 structure is increasingly likely to be voted through on Friday.

7 Premiership Clubs have said publicly they would vote for a permanent structure, 3 would not mind it on a temporary basis and 2 will not be drawn.

A 9-3 vote is required.

The other three Divisions are overwhelmingly in favour.


The votes required depends on many things
So you can't say for certain what is required voting wise until the full proposal and financial details attached to it are set out.
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 Re: 14-14-14
Topic Originator: BigJPar  
Date:   Tue 5 May 17:48

Quote:

Sliema Par, Tue 5 May 17:25

The Premiership Clubs will discuss a 14-14-16 set up on Thursday.

It is unlikely to pass as such a change in the articles of association requires a 11-1 vote.

A 14-14-14 structure is increasingly likely to be voted through on Friday.

7 Premiership Clubs have said publicly they would vote for a permanent structure, 3 would not mind it on a temporary basis and 2 will not be drawn.

A 9-3 vote is required.

The other three Divisions are overwhelmingly in favour.


And Kelty and Brora are hung out to dry.
I hope the pars vote against this. If not I'll be asking Ross why not.
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 Re: 14-14-14
Topic Originator: BigJPar  
Date:   Tue 5 May 17:50

In fact the more I think about this, the more it makes me angry. I can see me falling out with the pars board over this.
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 Re: 14-14-14
Topic Originator: Par77  
Date:   Tue 5 May 18:21

How 14-14-14 any more unfair on Kelty & Brora than Dundee & Ayr?
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 Re: 14-14-14
Topic Originator: DBP  
Date:   Tue 5 May 18:23

Is 14-14-14 is temporary then i will also be angry. Carnage the year it switches back just to save the team that on the field deserve to be relegated
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 Re: 14-14-14
Topic Originator: BigJPar  
Date:   Tue 5 May 18:25

Quote:

Par77, Tue 5 May 18:21

How 14-14-14 any more unfair on Kelty & Brora than Dundee & Ayr?


Shouldn't really need to answer that. In the absence of championship play offs the 2nd placed team will be promoted. No team getting into league 2. To appease the likes of Cowdenbeath.
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 Re: 14-14-14
Topic Originator: jake89  
Date:   Tue 5 May 18:26

I'm not clear who 14-14-14 benefits apart from the clubs supposed to be relegated.

Why are we reorganising an entire league structure to benefit 3 clubs?
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 Re: 14-14-14
Topic Originator: BigJPar  
Date:   Tue 5 May 18:28

Even if it's permanent it's wrong. Why should there be promotion to every league apart from the bottom 1?
Sporting integrity is at stake. We have links with Kelty and should be standing by them.

Post Edited (Tue 05 May 18:29)
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 Re: 14-14-14
Topic Originator: dafc  
Date:   Tue 5 May 18:32

Kelty and Brora should either both be in or at least in a play off with Brechin. Oh forgot Brechin have agreed otherwise.
If pars vote for 14-14-14 it tells you our chairman isn’t voting for either integrity or Scottish football future.
I’ve already decided not to attend any more pars games after the last vote against sporting integrity, you couldn’t make it up, teams at bottom league making a decison on Scottish football and holding it to ransom.
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 Re: 14-14-14
Topic Originator: saltonsgonagetu  
Date:   Tue 5 May 18:38

BBC Scotland and STV reporting preferred option is now 14-14-16.
ICT and Dundee Utd promoted ,no relegation from premier.
Partick stay in championship and kelty and Brora into bottom tier

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 Re: 14-14-14
Topic Originator: Par77  
Date:   Tue 5 May 18:38

Winning the Lowland or Highland leagues only gets you a playoff spot though. Every other league is guaranteed one promotion. The big winners in this set up are ICT and unfortunately Falkirk.
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 Re: 14-14-14
Topic Originator: BigJPar  
Date:   Tue 5 May 18:38

Quote:

dafc, Tue 5 May 18:32

Kelty and Brora should either both be in or at least in a play off with Brechin. Oh forgot Brechin have agreed otherwise.
If pars vote for 14-14-14 it tells you our chairman isn’t voting for either integrity or Scottish football future.
I’ve already decided not to attend any more pars games after the last vote against sporting integrity, you couldn’t make it up, teams at bottom league making a decison on Scottish football and holding it to ransom.


I'll be taking a break to mull things over if we vote for 14_14_14.
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 Re: 14-14-14
Topic Originator: JamesAndrew74  
Date:   Tue 5 May 18:39

Quote:

dafc, Tue 05 May 18:32

Kelty and Brora should either both be in or at least in a play off with Brechin. Oh forgot Brechin have agreed otherwise.
If pars vote for 14-14-14 it tells you our chairman isn’t voting for either integrity or Scottish football future.
I’ve already decided not to attend any more pars games after the last vote against sporting integrity, you couldn’t make it up, teams at bottom league making a decison on Scottish football and holding it to ransom.


Goodbye then. Hopefully you’ll find the need to stop posting about the club if you don’t support them anymore.

Over 80% of clubs voted the same way.
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 Re: 14-14-14
Topic Originator: Par77  
Date:   Tue 5 May 18:56

Genuinely don't see how there is more integrity relegating Partick to allow Kelty/Brora a playoff? We would be kicking off if we were in Particks position.
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 Re: 14-14-14
Topic Originator: Sliema Par  
Date:   Tue 5 May 18:56

Nowhere have BBC Scotland said that 14-14-16 is now the preferred option.

Indeed, they have gone out of their way to show why it will not happen.

It requires a change in the articles of association. In other words a 11-1 vote by the Premiership on Thursday.

Dunfermline Athletic are not involved.

On Friday the 42 clubs will then vote on 14-14-14.9-3 will be required in the Premiership.Support in the other three Divisions seems overwhelming.
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 Re: 14-14-14
Topic Originator: BigJPar  
Date:   Tue 5 May 19:01

Quote:

Par77, Tue 5 May 18:56

Genuinely don't see how there is more integrity relegating Partick to allow Kelty/Brora a playoff? We would be kicking off if we were in Particks position.


No relagation is what's being proposed
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 Re: 14-14-14
Topic Originator: the saline hill puma  
Date:   Tue 5 May 19:36

Quote:

Sliema Par, Tue 5 May 18:56

Nowhere have BBC Scotland said that 14-14-16 is now the preferred option.

Indeed, they have gone out of their way to show why it will not happen.

It requires a change in the articles of association. In other words a 11-1 vote by the Premiership on Thursday.

Dunfermline Athletic are not involved.

On Friday the 42 clubs will then vote on 14-14-14.9-3 will be required in the Premiership.Support in the other three Divisions seems overwhelming.


Utter pihs
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 Re: 14-14-14
Topic Originator: Par77  
Date:   Tue 5 May 19:48

BigJPar - If we cant get agreement on reconstruction then Hearts, Partick and Stranraer will be relegated. Also Kelty or Brora wont be promoted.



Post Edited (Tue 05 May 19:51)
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 Re: 14-14-14
Topic Originator: Sliema Par  
Date:   Tue 5 May 19:59

Relegating any clubs in these unique circumstances would be a new low.

How would we feel if Dunfermline were caught up in this nightmare?

What is the goal difference saving QOS?
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 Re: 14-14-14
Topic Originator: BigJPar  
Date:   Tue 5 May 20:11

Quote:

Par77, Tue 5 May 19:48

BigJPar - If we cant get agreement on reconstruction then Hearts, Partick and Stranraer will be relegated. Also Kelty or Brora wont be promoted.


The correct solution to ensure integrity is a 14_14_16 setup.
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 Re: 14-14-14
Topic Originator: Par77  
Date:   Tue 5 May 20:12

Agree Sliema, the status quo relegating Hearts, Partick and Stranraer would show far less integrity than denying Kelty and Brora a playoff.
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 Re: 14-14-14
Topic Originator: Par77  
Date:   Tue 5 May 20:15

Agree BigJPar, but 14-14-14 shows more integrity than the status quo.
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 Re: 14-14-14
Topic Originator: jake89  
Date:   Tue 5 May 20:19

There is no sporting integrity shown in any of the proposals. What is being suggested is that clubs like Hearts can't be relegated as the season wasn't finished. So why are clubs being declared as champions? Season wasn't finished.

The only reasonable answer would be to see out this season but that obviously creates issues in terms of contracts.

The alternative would be to pay out now but declare the season null and void. No champions/promotion and no relegation.
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 Re: 14-14-14
Topic Originator: Ben,D.A  
Date:   Tue 5 May 20:34

14, 14, 16 sounds good to me regardless of all the bickering from the higher clubs. Look at the opportunity forth the Northern and Southern leagues, automatic promotion and if a challenge cup could be squeezed into there schedule, with the winner in a play of for 3rd bottom might shake things up.

only 11 make the team,the rest can just but dream.
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 Re: 14-14-14
Topic Originator: Par77  
Date:   Tue 5 May 20:36

That's the point Jake, there is no absolutely fair way to sort this extremely unusual situation.
Null & void is very unfair on United and Cove Rangers,
I personally think we should have finished this season when possible as next season will be reduced anyway.
My original point was that Kelty and Brora are being treated no more unfairly than some other clubs.



Post Edited (Tue 05 May 20:46)
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 Re: 14-14-14
Topic Originator: JTH123  
Date:   Tue 5 May 21:03

Quote:

jake89, Tue 5 May 20:19

There is no sporting integrity shown in any of the proposals. What is being suggested is that clubs like Hearts can't be relegated as the season wasn't finished. So why are clubs being declared as champions? Season wasn't finished.

The only reasonable answer would be to see out this season but that obviously creates issues in terms of contracts.

The alternative would be to pay out now but declare the season null and void. No champions/promotion and no relegation.


The correct sporting solution for me would be to play the season out whenever football starts again and shorten next season. It's then a level playing field for everyone.
Unfortunately that would be a financial disaster so there you have it.
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 Re: 14-14-14
Topic Originator: GJS93  
Date:   Tue 5 May 21:44

Utter pihs….same can be said for the new preferred plan too.

from the record
"This model is understood to be preferred by the task force to the 14/10/10/10 and 14/14/14 options which have previously been mooted.
However the latest plan still faces a huge task to win sufficient backing
For any revamp to go through it requires 11 clubs in the Premiership, eight in the Championship and 15 out of 20 League 1 and 2 clubs to vote for it"
"The reconstruction task force - headed by Hearts supremo Ann Budge and Les Gray of Hamilton - are now set to garner opinion among clubs before deciding whether to formalise the plan for a vote"
"Only if they feel it has a real chance of getting the thumbs up will they proceed"

from bbc
"Agreement in principle on 14-14-16 would be sought before further detail emerges about league splits, play-offs, promotion and relegation"

yep good luck.
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 Re: 14-14-14
Topic Originator: AdamAntsParsStripe  
Date:   Tue 5 May 21:59

Quote:

jake89, Tue 5 May 18:26

I'm not clear who 14-14-14 benefits apart from the clubs supposed to be relegated.

Why are we reorganising an entire league structure to benefit 3 clubs?


Dundee's change of mind came at a price is my best guess.

If you only turn up to moan then do it elsewhere
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 Re: 14-14-14
Topic Originator: Bandy  
Date:   Tue 5 May 22:13

Dundee have a track record of doing pretty well in these situations.
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 Re: 14-14-14
Topic Originator: GJS93  
Date:   Tue 5 May 22:36

im shocked, I really am

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/spfls-14-14-16-league-21980287
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 Re: 14-14-14
Topic Originator: veteraneastender  
Date:   Tue 5 May 23:26

"Dundee have a track record of doing pretty well in these situations."

Administration Mk.II brought them a 25 points deduction - then they went on a record 23 game unbeaten run and comfortably escaped relegation, winning only one game less than the champions.
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 Re: 14-14-14
Topic Originator: jake89  
Date:   Tue 5 May 23:34

Quote:

GJS93, Tue 5 May 22:36

im shocked, I really am

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/spfls-14-14-16-league-21980287


Good. Options should simply be:

Promote/relegate based on current standings.

Declare season null and void (no champions or relegation)

Finish the season. (behind closed doors or whatever way is feasible).
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 Re: 14-14-14
Topic Originator: Sliema Par  
Date:   Wed 6 May 07:00

As Brian McLauchlin has twice explained on BBC "Sportsound" a 9-3 vote is required for 14-14-14.

Whereas a 11-1 vote would be required for 14-14-16 as it requires a change in the articles of association.

Do Brora want to be promoted?

From the very outset the SPFL rejected the option of declaring the season null and void.



Post Edited (Wed 06 May 07:01)
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 Re: 14-14-14
Topic Originator: jock-par  
Date:   Wed 6 May 07:14

Brora do want to be promoted. 14-14-16 sounds good to me

We are Dunfermline, we're on our way back!
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 Re: 14-14-14
Topic Originator: veteraneastender  
Date:   Wed 6 May 08:35

Cue punters scrambling around to find where Brora is on a map !!!
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 Re: 14-14-14
Topic Originator: eastendalloapar  
Date:   Wed 6 May 11:07

Anne Budge reminds me of when Margaret Thatcher was PM. She is a woman that gets her own way and everyone does as she says.

matt forsyth
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 Re: 14-14-14
Topic Originator: Ben,D.A  
Date:   Wed 6 May 11:10

Nd she'll no budge on this relegation reconstruction.

only 11 make the team,the rest can just but dream.
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 Re: 14-14-14
Topic Originator: DBP  
Date:   Wed 6 May 13:25

Could understand saying it's unfair to relegate hearts if it was 10 games into the season... But we're 30 games in!

Hearts have had games against each of their direct competitors on 3 occasions so they've had plenty of time to prove they're not the worse team in the league... But they are

Whilst it's unfortunate they've not had their remaining few games to try and get out of their predicament, world events have overtaken us so we have to call the league as is - it's the only fair way in my eyes - so we need to call it, declare champions, promote and relegate and let's burn our energy on working out what football will be like when it can return!

Ps temporary reconstruction for a year or two and the carnage that will occur when we regress is so outrageous it shouldn't even be being discussed (and wouldnt be if it was one of the smaller also-rans at the bottom of the spl)
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 Re: 14-14-14
Topic Originator: Par77  
Date:   Wed 6 May 13:54

DBP, Do you think it’s fair on Partick and would you just accept it if we were in the same position?
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 Re: 14-14-14
Topic Originator: The Toun Clock  
Date:   Wed 6 May 14:01

I seen someone on Twitter say that you can't not come into work Monday to Thursday and claim you'll turn up on the Friday. Hearts haven't turned up this season and only have themselves to blame.

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 Re: 14-14-14
Topic Originator: DBP  
Date:   Wed 6 May 14:38

I think the league table doesn't lie so whilst not ideal, it's not unfair on Partick as they are in the position they are in thanks to being gash.

If it was the pars I'd be p*ssed off and probably say its not fair... but deep down i'd really be angry at the fact that my team couldn't win matches and found themselves in that position, ie bottom of the league at this stage in the campaign.

Post Edited (Wed 06 May 14:43)
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 Re: 14-14-14
Topic Originator: dafc  
Date:   Wed 6 May 15:19

Pars chairman has more or less said they voted for what was best for Scottish football and not self interest.
Does that mean if we had been in Partick position we would have voted same way? Or even in Falkirks position.
No chance and a liar If he says otherwise.
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 Re: 14-14-14
Topic Originator: DBP  
Date:   Wed 6 May 15:37

Don't get your point dafc?

As said earlier, the league table doesn't lie and we've not been good enough to win the league or poor enough to be bottom...

So thanks to what's happened on the field, we don't have to weigh up self interest vs what's for the good of Scottish football.
If we were going to be positively or negatively impacted, I would suspect and how he would take that into account and vote on what would be best for the club
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 Re: 14-14-14
Topic Originator: Lambo1885  
Date:   Wed 6 May 16:20

"Pars chairman has more or less said they voted for what was best for Scottish football and not self interest.
Does that mean if we had been in Partick position we would have voted same way? Or even in Falkirks position.
No chance and a liar If he says otherwise."

Well he did vote for us to move down a place and lose out on prise money.

If your going to give the league and promote United, the wee team and Cove you have to relegate Hearts, Partick and Stranraer. Can't do one and not the other imo. Reconstruction and the shitshow that's coming with it is just to appease Hearts, no one else, if it was Hamilton or St Mirren bottom this would all be done and dusted.
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 Re: 14-14-14
Topic Originator: jake89  
Date:   Wed 6 May 17:24

If you argue relegation isn't fair on Hearts as they could recover then you could as easily argue we should be promoted as we could have gone on a winning streak, finished in a play off position and won promotion.

Anne Budge can gtf.
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 Re: 14-14-14
Topic Originator: wee eck  
Date:   Wed 6 May 18:31

''Pars chairman has more or less said they voted for what was best for Scottish football and not self interest.
Does that mean if we had been in Partick position we would have voted same way? Or even in Falkirks position.
No chance and a liar If he says otherwise.''

Calling someone a liar based on a hypothetical situation he hasn't actually had to confront really is the pits.
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 Re: 14-14-14
Topic Originator: AdamAntsParsStripe  
Date:   Wed 6 May 19:46

Quote:

wee eck, Wed 6 May 18:31

''Pars chairman has more or less said they voted for what was best for Scottish football and not self interest.
Does that mean if we had been in Partick position we would have voted same way? Or even in Falkirks position.
No chance and a liar If he says otherwise.''

Calling someone a liar based on a hypothetical situation he hasn't actually had to confront really is the pits.


It's not really. If we were in Partick's situation two points behind with a game on hand, Ross would be saying something completely different and that goes for everyone on here too.
That's not a criticism, just the basic truth.

If you only turn up to moan then do it elsewhere
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 Re: 14-14-14
Topic Originator: wee eck  
Date:   Wed 6 May 20:24

Well, in my book, calling someone a liar based on how you think he would react to a hypothetical situation is the pits. How can you be a liar if you haven't actually said anything? This is the chairman of our club. It's totally uncalled for.
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 Re: 14-14-14
Topic Originator: AdamAntsParsStripe  
Date:   Wed 6 May 20:27

Yeah, liar is harsh I admit but it's also true to say we wouldn't be happy in that situation.
We all know this so no point painting it any other way.

If you only turn up to moan then do it elsewhere
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 Re: 14-14-14
Topic Originator: DBP  
Date:   Thu 7 May 06:39

So what?

Genuinely don't get the point you're making...

So if I've got this correct... what you're saying is that if we were gash all season, found ourselves bottom of the table this far into the league campaign, a major world wide virus means leagues are called a bit early and as a result of all the above we would be relegated due to the fact we were in last place... We'd all be p*ssed at the prospect and our chairman (dafc's chairman) would vote in the best and vested interest of dafc.

If I've summarised that correctly, then obviously!

Edited to add :
But for all we'd be unhappy, (like a boxer who's been battered for 10 rounds is never happy when the ref calls it with 2 rounds still to go) we'd have to accept the fact that we're in bottom slot and bottom slot means relegation when the season concludes. This isn't a cycling event where folk hang back for the mountains, a football league means folk go out to win as many as they can from the start... Those who should be promoted /winners won their games, are sitting top and deserve it, those who should be relegated lost theirs, sit bottom of the league and deserve it

Post Edited (Thu 07 May 06:45)
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 Re: 14-14-14
Topic Originator: rudeboy69  
Date:   Thu 7 May 07:50

I am against this if its temporary simply from a pars point of view (and other championship sides)

What makes it fair that ICT who have had 2 parachute payments after relegation get a promotion bringing a years worth of cash and another 2 parachute payments.

Just as ict were about to be back playing us on even playing field they get this injection of cash for 3 years.

Why should ICT get 4 years parachute payments plus a year of high income off the back of a relegation and a temporary league reconstruction.

If this is temporary then surely all parachute payments are split across the whole league for equity reasons?

Maybe I am in the minority but I like what we have at the moment, it works! I would only use this as a way of getting fairer distribution of wealth



FRANK THE TANK FRANK THE TANK
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 Re: 14-14-14
Topic Originator: DunfyDave  
Date:   Thu 7 May 10:15

I am totally against parachute payments of any kind, it rewards poor results and puts other challenging clubs at a disadvantage.

I want league reconstruction as well as a fairer distribution of funds based on league position from 1 all the way down to 42 that promotes fairness, competition and integrity.

DunfyDave
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 Re: 14-14-14
Topic Originator: GG Riva  
Date:   Thu 7 May 10:45

Quote:

DunfyDave, Thu 7 May 10:15

I am totally against parachute payments of any kind, it rewards poor results and puts other challenging clubs at a disadvantage.

I want league reconstruction as well as a fairer distribution of funds based on league position from 1 all the way down to 42 that promotes fairness, competition and integrity.


The only reason for parachute payments is to try and ensure the next best thing to a closed shop, Dave. Any club "unfortunate" enough to suffer relegation by finishing bottom, or losing out in the play off final, is handed a great opportunity to bounce back the following season.

I think I'm right in thinking that there are no parachute payments for clubs relegated from the Championship or Leagues 1 and 2. How is that fair?



Not your average Sunday League player.
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 Re: 14-14-14
Topic Originator: GJS93  
Date:   Fri 8 May 17:30

no changes for next season.

https://news.stv.tv/sport/league-reconstruction-off-as-plans-fail-to-win-support?top
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