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 No league reconstruction ~ yet
Topic Originator: buffy  
Date:   Fri 8 May 18:13

https://news.stv.tv/sport/league-reconstruction-off-as-plans-fail-to-win-support

Come on down Hearts!



buffysbuns.wordpress.com

Post Edited (Tue 19 May 14:31)
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 Re: No league reconstruction
Topic Originator: eastendalloapar  
Date:   Fri 8 May 18:18

A bit unfair on Kelty and Brora, however they will have their chance next year. Thank goodness Ann Budge didn't get her way, unless of course the Premier league restarts.

matt forsyth
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 Re: No league reconstruction
Topic Originator: Par  
Date:   Fri 8 May 18:21

It's a pity we may miss out on big crowds at Rovers and Hearts games for next season.
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 Re: No league reconstruction
Topic Originator: BigJPar  
Date:   Fri 8 May 18:22

Quote:

Par, Fri 8 May 18:21

It's a pity we may miss out on big crowds at Rovers and Hearts games for next season.


Eh?
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 Re: No league reconstruction
Topic Originator: dd23  
Date:   Fri 8 May 18:23

Excellent, best news I've heard in a while. It was total corruption purely to allow Hearts to stay up. And a totally pointless exercise to revamp the league when we dont even know when it will he able to start, so to change everything for a season and plan a new format of games which may not even work get played was nonsensical.

Post Edited (Fri 08 May 18:23)
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 Re: No league reconstruction
Topic Originator: Alf  
Date:   Fri 8 May 18:24

Quote:

Par, Fri 8 May 18:21

It's a pity we may miss out on big crowds at Rovers and Hearts games for next season.


No we won't, Rovers promoted and Hearts down
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 Re: No league reconstruction
Topic Originator: Big T Par  
Date:   Fri 8 May 18:26

Hearts fans will boycott away games, if fans are allowed, according to kickback



Post Edited (Fri 08 May 18:26)
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 Re: No league reconstruction
Topic Originator: storminNorman  
Date:   Fri 8 May 18:33

aye so they will just like the Rangers fans threatened to forever boycott Tanadice
that worked out well in fact the first midweek game after they announced the boycott the blue hoards still turned up,ok not as many but boycotts never really ever com to anything.
just imagine they have to visit Dundee to win the title (we remember how that went the last time lol) does anyone seriously believe thousands upon thousands of hearts fans would not pour into the city to see the game?
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 Re: No league reconstruction
Topic Originator: Par  
Date:   Fri 8 May 18:40

We will miss out if the season is partially or completely played behind closed doors.
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 Re: No league reconstruction
Topic Originator: the saline hill puma  
Date:   Fri 8 May 18:51

Quote:

Par, Fri 8 May 18:40

We will miss out if the season is partially or completely played behind closed doors.


Scottish football will not start without fans. Clubs can't afford it
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 Re: No league reconstruction
Topic Originator: twin par  
Date:   Fri 8 May 18:53

There is no chance, football behind closed doors in Scotland will happen,a totally insane idea.
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 Re: No league reconstruction
Topic Originator: Par  
Date:   Fri 8 May 19:00

Topic Originator: the saline hill puma | Like: 1
Date: Fri 8 May 18:51

Quote:

Par, Fri 8 May 18:40

We will miss out if the season is partially or completely played behind closed doors.


Scottish football will not start without fans. Clubs can't afford it


Topic Originator: twin par |
Date: Fri 8 May 18:53

There is no chance, football behind closed doors in Scotland will happen,a totally insane idea.


What are the options?
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 Re: No league reconstruction
Topic Originator: jake89  
Date:   Fri 8 May 19:05

Leaked WhatsApp chat on Follow Follow reveals that McArthur breached lockdown to go round all the Chairpeoples houses and tell them it wasn't happening as he wants 4 games against the Jam Tarts next season. Tim Keyes seemingly filled his pants when McArthur appeared in front of his bi-fold patio doors.

Post Edited (Fri 08 May 19:05)
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 Re: No league reconstruction
Topic Originator: dafc  
Date:   Fri 8 May 19:13

Hopefully hearts fans boycott all away games if fans are even allowed in. They should fill own ground only for all games.
Opportunity and a Chance of change for the better scuppered, pyramid system shambles.
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 Re: No league reconstruction
Topic Originator: dafc-chris1  
Date:   Fri 8 May 19:30

The teams who are bottom of their leagues deserve to be relegated they have been the worst team in their respective leagues all season

Post Edited (Fri 08 May 19:30)
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 Re: No league reconstruction
Topic Originator: Berkey  
Date:   Fri 8 May 19:49

Dad-chris1 does that include Partick who had not played as many games as QOS?

Just sitting here drenched in my own negativity!
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 Re: No league reconstruction
Topic Originator: GJS93  
Date:   Fri 8 May 19:58

agree with dd23 although id bet Hearts will now attempt to go down the legal route, could be a race between them and Rangers for who can make this last the longest.
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 Re: No league reconstruction
Topic Originator: dafc  
Date:   Fri 8 May 20:37

Posted by Kelty.

Scottish Lowland Football League Constitution and Rules Version 12 (4 June 2019)

22
b) References to rules within these Pyramid Play-Off Rules are references to the rules that are contained within this annex unless otherwise stated. Capitalised words and phrases not defined in these rules have the meanings ascribed to them in the Rules of the SPFL. c) Any amendment to these Pyramid Play-Off Rules must be agreed by each of the Scottish FA, SPFL, SHFL and SLFL prior to it becoming effective.
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 Re: No league reconstruction
Topic Originator: GG Riva  
Date:   Fri 8 May 20:39

Quote:

jake89, Fri 8 May 19:05

Leaked WhatsApp chat on Follow Follow reveals that McArthur breached lockdown to go round all the Chairpeoples houses and tell them it wasn't happening as he wants 4 games against the Jam Tarts next season. Tim Keyes seemingly filled his pants when McArthur appeared in front of his bi-fold patio doors.


You're a very naughty boy, Jake. Some knuckle dragging numpty is going to take you seriously and put it on his team's fans forum. Next thing you know, Ross's mobile no or email will be public knowledge and all the bampots of the day will be sending him death threats, a la the late Turnbull Hutton, the former wee team chairman. ☹



Not your average Sunday League player.
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 Re: No league reconstruction
Topic Originator: GG Riva  
Date:   Fri 8 May 21:29

Having read the statement, I think the thread title should have been

"No league reconstruction - YET"

Towards the foot of the report - almost unnoticed - is the give away clue. Once the clubs have worked their way through the pandemic, they will look at any proposals again. It makes sense. We don't know when football will return to normality, with fans on attendance, nor do we know how many clubs will be left standing at that point.

Only then will it make sense to decide the structure of the leagues and the way ahead.



Not your average Sunday League player.
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 Re: No league reconstruction
Topic Originator: veteraneastender  
Date:   Fri 8 May 21:50

"Hopefully hearts fans boycott all away games if fans are even allowed in"

Championship club treasurers might have a differing opinion on that.
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 Re: No league reconstruction
Topic Originator: elvis_lives  
Date:   Fri 8 May 22:06

They will boycott hee haw.
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 Re: No league reconstruction
Topic Originator: GJS93  
Date:   Fri 8 May 22:22

Falkirk have gone into full meltdown mode with the news, marvellous!

"Falkirk FC respond to news of the failure of league reconstruction talks

Falkirk FC Chairman Gary Deans said:

“Today’s announcement will not come as a huge surprise to Falkirk supporters who have, along with the rest of Scottish football, witnessed firsthand the utter shambles engulfing our game these last few weeks.

As you know I have been working with the SPFL Reconstruction Group over recent weeks and I received a call late this afternoon (8 May) informing me that six Premier League clubs had indicated they would not support any league reconstruction at the present time.

As a club we embarked upon this process with eyes wide open and tempered optimism, hoping that the SPFL and other clubs might see the bigger picture and act in the best interests of Scottish football. In fairness, some did see that bigger picture and approached talks in a constructive manner – but once again progress has been hampered by the short sightedness and self-preservation of a small cabal within Scotland’s top division.

You will share my anger at this latest injustice, the failed promises and the general mismanagement that has occurred at the top of Scottish football for many years

The handling of this entire situation has been farcical ranging from the decisions made by the SPFL board to those clubs who have, what could only be charitably described as, misled and deceived. The principle of ‘do no harm’ to Scottish football during the pandemic was thrown out of the window a long time ago and the decision taken today will cause harm to many clubs – Falkirk included.

To add insult to injury to release a statement on a Friday evening adding to the stress of players, staff and the many people connected with football clubs is a sign of the blatant contempt that those in charge of our game hold for us all.

I have already embarked upon discussions with other clubs who share my anger and we will be considering the next steps to take over the weekend. I will keep you informed as matters progress but for now the club has made it clear that we cannot support this unfair decision taken by six clubs and supported by those at the SPFL. Change is required.

As a club we must do what we’ve always done, let our performances on the pitch do the talking, and with your support press on through the leagues and take our place in the top division where we can continue to lobby for the necessary change required in Scottish football.”



Post Edited (Fri 08 May 22:39)
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 Re: No league reconstruction
Topic Originator: we won the cup in 68  
Date:   Fri 8 May 22:32

F*lkirk link not working.
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 Re: No league reconstruction
Topic Originator: dafc-chris1  
Date:   Fri 8 May 22:44

Yes that includes Partick Thistle the PPG format makes it fair
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 Re: No league reconstruction
Topic Originator: Jeffery  
Date:   Fri 8 May 22:56

"...once again progress has been hampered by the short sightedness and self-preservation of a small cabal within Scotland’s top division..."

Although his intellect is questionable given he's a Falkirk fan it's hard to disagree with that.
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 Re: No league reconstruction
Topic Originator: Rastapari  
Date:   Fri 8 May 23:00

A more pertinent endeavour for Falkirk would be to stop scratching their collective baws on the equivalent of a footballing cheese grater and wiping their ar*e with expensive over trade price sandpaper.

Carole Baskin fed Rasta to a tiger.
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 Re: No league reconstruction
Topic Originator: saltonsgonagetu  
Date:   Fri 8 May 23:17

At the end of the day clubs had 3/4 of the season to get above the relegation positions ,a last minute goal will send down ,no change

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 Re: No league reconstruction
Topic Originator: DA-go Par Adonis  
Date:   Sat 9 May 00:29

Strange how Falkirk's magnanimous tone when accepting the decision to end the season has now completely changed.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I love it when we don't sell Kevin Nisbet,
He's gonna score in every game 'til Christmas,
And every touch is goal la la la, it's goal la la la,
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 Re: No league reconstruction
Topic Originator: dafc  
Date:   Sat 9 May 01:00

Is that because the spfl board members who were phoning all the clubs saying reconstruction is on but only on a yes vote, the same members who sat today and said not under any circumstance, it is also maybe why Brora and Kelty only released that statement tonight and quote to league rules as they too had been assured.
Seems to be more than one club using the words deceived, mis led, officials being pressured and so on. It stinks.
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 Re: No league reconstruction
Topic Originator: OzPar  
Date:   Sat 9 May 01:41

Coming soon to Netflix...


Ross McArthur

as...

INTIMIDATOR!


:)
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 Re: No league reconstruction
Topic Originator: Sliema Par  
Date:   Sat 9 May 07:12

Both "Reporting Scotland" and the very brief "STV News" went on air minutes after the Hampden meeting broke up.

On the agenda yesterday was the Premiership Clubs discussing 14-14-16.That necessitated a 11-1 vote as the Articles Of Association had to be changed.

On the Tuesday agenda all 42 Clubs were to discuss 14-14-14 which required a 9-3 Premiership vote.

What has changed?

Rangers and Partick Th cannot afford to go to the Court Of Session.Hearts can.



Post Edited (Sat 09 May 07:52)
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 Re: No league reconstruction
Topic Originator: GJS93  
Date:   Sat 9 May 08:57

^^^ nothing has changed as it was never on an agenda for Tuesday, again it wouldn't be a 9-3 vote if it was and the Premier league teams were to be asked before any full proposal was put forward, if the task force didn't get the backing it wouldn't put forward the proposal, they didn't.

"Seems to be more than one club using the words deceived, mis led, officials being pressured and so on. It stinks"

league clubs who voted no at the original vote, all looking for their own interests and a free pass in some cases that was never guaranteed.

"Strange how Falkirk's magnanimous tone when accepting the decision to end the season has now completely changed"

reading some of their fans views on this last night, they weren't happy with the statement at all.



Post Edited (Sat 09 May 09:31)
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 Re: No league reconstruction
Topic Originator: Sliema Par  
Date:   Sat 9 May 09:47

In the last week the Quality Press and the Tabloids both reported that 7 Premiership Clubs were in favour of Permanent League Reconstruction; 3 were in favour of it on a temporary basis,2 clubs would not be drawn.

Today we learn that 6 Premiership Clubs were against, 3 were in favour ie Hamilton Accies,Hearts and Motherwell while 3 abstained.That meant the planned discussion on -14-14-14 was also holed below the waterline.

One hesitates to suggest that certain clubs were lying.......
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 Re: No league reconstruction
Topic Originator: jake89  
Date:   Sat 9 May 09:51

Hearts can't afford a court case. Maybe if they put their pennies together with The Rangers and pass the pot round at the local lodge, they may manage to be able to afford it.
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 Re: No league reconstruction
Topic Originator: Sliema Par  
Date:   Sat 9 May 10:32

We are talking about a club which built a new Stand and redeveloped their Stadium at a cost of £6.9m and still turned in a £2.3m profit.

We are talking about a Capital City where more than half the houses are bought without a mortgage.

Hearts are in talks with Lawyers as I write.
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 Re: No league reconstruction
Topic Originator: dafc-chris1  
Date:   Sat 9 May 10:45

Ann Budge might take legal advice but that is different to legal action
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 Re: No league reconstruction
Topic Originator: Raymie the Legend  
Date:   Sat 9 May 10:47

Hibs voted against it, apparently. Hearts will be fine. 17,000 season tickets. They’ll just have to stop giving any more p*sh players 8k a week and 4 year deals




It's bloody tough being a legend
Ron Atkinson - 1983
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 Re: No league reconstruction
Topic Originator: JimMcDAFC  
Date:   Sat 9 May 10:49

Well as a lot of posters are saying the club's can't survive without the supporters so the supporters have most of the power. All it needs is for them to get organised collectively and confirm they will not turn up to games right from the start of season whenever that is unless the club's give them what they want. That's
if the majority of the fans do want change but I suppose it would only be sensible to wait and see what clubs survive this crisis. Also do not forget the powers that be also said they would look at the possibility of increasing the top league after the last time they increased it to 12 but review never happened.
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 Re: No league reconstruction
Topic Originator: allparone  
Date:   Sat 9 May 10:54

“One hesitates to suggest that certain clubs were lying.......”

You say in your own post that 3 clubs were reportedly for a temporary set up and 3 voted for it at the meeting. You’re assuming that this was discussed as permanent reconstruction. Maybe no club “lied?”
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 Re: No league reconstruction
Topic Originator: jake89  
Date:   Sat 9 May 11:45

Hearts' "profits" are mainly made up of anonymous donations.

If they're such a big team, relegation would be no issue.
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 Re: No league reconstruction
Topic Originator: storminNorman  
Date:   Sat 9 May 12:09

jake89 i think you would find that out of all the clubs threatening legal action and not just seeking advice only one could afford the costs involved and that is Hearts,it wont be Budge putting her hand in her pocket anyway it would again be the FOH (the federation) who would finance the case.
they are the body who have raised most of the funds to pay Budge back her initial investment and kept punting money into the new stand.
believe it or not the Jambo's have plenty wealthy fans ready and willing to pour funds into that club.

do i think they will proceed down that road? i doubt it probably make a lot of the right noises going forward but will reluctantly end up excepting the decision with a statement along the same lines as Falkirk being released to rally the fan base against all the injustices dished out against ONLY their club.
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 Re: No league reconstruction
Topic Originator: GJS93  
Date:   Sat 9 May 12:31

this would be the same Hearts who told their players accept wage cuts or you don't get paid at all
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 Re: No league reconstruction
Topic Originator: Socks  
Date:   Sat 9 May 13:05

It's amusing that Sliema Par seems so puzzled by this. The outcome is not in the least surprising to anyone who thought about it properly, for reasons that I and others have mentioned over the last few weeks. Perhaps Sliema would be better informed if he/she actually listened to what other people have to say, rather than petulantly dismissing any analysis that disagrees.
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 Re: No league reconstruction
Topic Originator: Sliema Par  
Date:   Sat 9 May 15:01

Chris McLaughlin, on BBC Scotland "Sportsound" ,has said that there was no vote yesterday.

It was not an announcement by the SPFL Board.

It wasn't even a press release by the Working Party whose remit is League Reconstruction.

It was the feeling of the 12 Premiership Clubs plus Dundee United and chaired by Mr Cormack, Aberdeen.
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 Re: No league reconstruction
Topic Originator: jake89  
Date:   Sat 9 May 15:39

Hearts sold off equity in the club to finance their stadium improvements. No issue with that but they're far from minted enough to throw money at legal battles. They'd probably be better off accepting their fate, getting a relegation payment and buying the league next season.

The whole reconstruction was just to appease Hearts and other clubs must see this. They're like a desperate ex pleading you to come back. Throwing themselves at you and begging. Show some pride and accept it. Patrick are the ones who should feel aggrieved, not Hearts.
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 Re: No league reconstruction
Topic Originator: allparone  
Date:   Sat 9 May 15:44

If I picked Deans up correctly he was asking the Hearts fans to fund the legal dispute. He said he’s start it off by making a 4 figure donation. He said if they were successful they would be able to claim their expenses back through the courts.
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 Re: No league reconstruction
Topic Originator: DBP  
Date:   Sat 9 May 17:11

Can we all crowd fund the defense that they shouldn't get additional money... This would be an unfair advantage to them in the lower league and its unfair given they are where they are because that have been rank rotten all season and relegation is deserved

Post Edited (Sat 09 May 17:15)
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 Re: No league reconstruction
Topic Originator: parsfan  
Date:   Sat 9 May 19:26

Quote:

Sliema Par, Sat 9 May 10:32
We are talking about a Capital City where more than half the houses are bought without a mortgage.


That's interesting. Completely contrary to my own experience of living and working there for well over 20 years but quite intriguing.

Can you provide a source please? The Edinburgh property market was quite overheated before all this happened and, in a seller's market, I'm finding it hard to work out how prices could have risen as much as they did without people putting themselves into debt.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The universe is ruled by chance and indifference
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 Re: No league reconstruction
Topic Originator: jake89  
Date:   Sat 9 May 23:14

Wealth in a city doesn't mean wealth in a football club. Are the New Towners and folks on the Southside regulars at Tynecastle? Doubt it.

Despite what Dunfermline folk think, there's plenty wealth in Dunfermline. That doesn't mean all those people are pouring their cash into the Pars though.
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 Re: No league reconstruction
Topic Originator: DBP  
Date:   Sun 10 May 07:31

from my experience in edinburgh (where i'm from and lived for a long time including buying houses), the only ones who were able to afford to buy outright were the ones returning home after having a career in london (or finishing their career up here, but only after gaining considerable equity in london first)

the only other ones who could afford to buy outright were the property companies who were buying to rent out - not to live
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 Re: No league reconstruction
Topic Originator: DA-go Par Adonis  
Date:   Sun 10 May 07:43

Or those downsizing for retirement.

Regardless, around 3% of the population of Edinburgh inhabit the stands at Tynecastle of a home game - less those travelling from outside the city.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I love it when we don't sell Kevin Nisbet,
He's gonna score in every game 'til Christmas,
And every touch is goal la la la, it's goal la la la,
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 Re: No league reconstruction
Topic Originator: jake89  
Date:   Sun 10 May 08:54

Anne Budge statement saying the reason for the failure of reconstruction was due to "self-interest". The irony meter just exploded.
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 Re: No league reconstruction
Topic Originator: Sliema Par  
Date:   Sun 10 May 09:23

parsfan: I do not want the thread to go off at a tangent.

The average price of a house in buoyant Edinburgh is £302,000 and a high proportion of houses bought are affluent elderly individuals downsizing.

Edinburgh has more millionaires than most cities in the U.K.

My main point is that we should not doubt that Hearts can afford to go to the Court Of Session.
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 Re: No league reconstruction
Topic Originator: DBP  
Date:   Sun 10 May 09:31

so you suggesting that because they can afford to complain in court we should all shi*te ourselves and let them feck the whole league up for 1 or 2 year temporary reconstruction (and the carnage that would ensue when it goes back) just so they can stay in the spl?

someone made a comment that rangers are trying harder off the pitch to stop celtic winning 9 in a row than they ever did on the pitch... and after 30 games it looks like hearts are going down the same road as their on field performances put them squarely in the relegation spot and no legal threats will change that.

they clearly think that because they're the self titled, "third biggest team in scotland", they should get special treatment, eh no... you're the worst team in the SPL and should get relegated
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 Re: No league reconstruction
Topic Originator: Sliema Par  
Date:   Sun 10 May 09:32

To return to the surprising comment by Chris McLaughlin of BBC Radio Scotland: We have yet to hear from both the SPFL Board AND the Working Party on League Reconstruction.

What we heard on Friday was an informal Opinion by the Premiership Clubs and Dundee Utd Chaired by Mr Cormack

We should learn a lot more on Tuesday when the 42 Clubs must decide about the Rangers dossier and the Premiership should agree to call the season.

Then the fun will begin.



Post Edited (Sun 10 May 09:33)
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 Re: No league reconstruction
Topic Originator: GG Riva  
Date:   Sun 10 May 11:05

The clubs, understandably, don't want to consider reconstruction in the middle of a pandemic. We don't know when football, with fans, will be able to re-start. (I think we can forget any idea about the Scottish leagues kicking off behind closed doors - we're not like the EPL, which derives much of its income from TV.)

Once football gets the green light, club representatives can then discuss any proposals - old or new - which member clubs may wish to submit. If the go ahead comes in, say December of this year, a temporary, short season is the most likely outcome. I wouldn't rule out a scenario in which Hearts remain in a 14 team top flight and get a second chance to avoid relegation, before we revert to the present set up in season 21/22.



Not your average Sunday League player.
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 Re: No league reconstruction
Topic Originator: Sliema Par  
Date:   Sun 10 May 11:15

GG Riva: I could not agree more.

One of the arguments for 14-14-14 is that we could have a curtailed season 2020/21 of 26 matches.

Journalists have said to me that it was Ann Budge's brazen attempt to get a one year temporary fix, as Hearts assemble in the lifeboat; which has really antagonised the other Premiership clubs.
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 Re: No league reconstruction
Topic Originator: Sliema Par  
Date:   Thu 14 May 07:19

I was surprised to find St Johnstone attacking League Reconstruction given their support for it over many years.

Subsequently they have said they remain in favour for much the same reasons as GG Riva outlines above.

They just did not want the rushed temporary fix Ann Budge was suggesting.
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 Re: No league reconstruction
Topic Originator: GG Riva  
Date:   Thu 14 May 10:43

We could be at least one Premiership club down when football eventually restarts in Scotland. A newish Glasgow club has secured a lucrative joint sponsorship deal with Red Bull and Honda.

It is conditional on them moving to Norn Iron and changing its name to Red Honda Ulster .....



Not your average Sunday League player.


Post Edited (Thu 14 May 10:44)
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 Re: No league reconstruction
Topic Originator: GJS93  
Date:   Thu 14 May 12:09

not on the top flight, the other 3 leagues..

from the Evening Express

Talks on SPFL reconstruction may not be completely off the table – despite a lack of support from Premiership clubs.
A taskforce, with representatives from all four divisions as well as the Highland League and Lowland League, was set-up by the SPFL last month to discuss possible reconstruction scenarios.
They were also given the mandate to bring forward a proposed restructure of the Scottish Leagues for member clubs to consider.
There had been talk of a 14-team Premiership with three leagues of 10 below or three divisions of 14 or two leagues of 14 and 16-team third tier.
But last Friday following a meeting of the Premiership clubs and Dundee United these clubs indicated they did support a rejig of the league set-up at this time.
However, the panel that is being chaired by Hearts chief Ann Budge and Hamilton Academical vice-chairman Les Gray have not yet submitted a proposal for member clubs to consider.
The SPFL has still to officially confirm that reconstruction is off the table and that the taskforce has been wound up.
That’s because member clubs have yet to receive an official proposal to vote on.
The Evening Express understands that because Friday’s meeting was not one arranged by the SPFL and because the reconstruction group were given a clear mandate to come up with a proposal, a number of clubs are of the opinion that until such time as a proposal is put forward and considered then reconstruction is not off the table.
In an attempt to sway Premiership clubs some believe a plan which includes a 12-team top flight may be brought forward.
This could include the Championship or League Two being expanded to 12 teams to accommodate Highland League champions Brora Rangers and Lowland League winners Kelty Hearts, who many feel don’t deserve to be locked out of the SPFL.
Although a proposal with an unaltered Premiership would not save Hearts from relegation it may gain the support of other top flight clubs.
Eleven of the 12 Premiership sides would be required to vote in favour a reconstruction for it to pass, with 75% approval required in the Championship and Leagues One and Two.
If a proposal is eventually put to clubs there may still not be the support across the four divisions to vote it through, but there is hope that a formal plan will be brought to the table.

the last line they could change may still not be to there will not be.
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 Re: No league reconstruction
Topic Originator: Sliema Par  
Date:   Sat 16 May 14:16

Les Gray presented two options to the Premiership clubs.

The Anne Budge presentation will be for a temporary two year fix.

Rangers,Aberdeen and Celtic are amenable.

Source: Chris McLaughlin BBC Radio Scotland.



Post Edited (Sat 16 May 14:21)
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 Re: No league reconstruction
Topic Originator: dafc-chris1  
Date:   Mon 18 May 20:24

We just need to draw a line under all of this and teams need to just accept their medicine and move on
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 Re: No league reconstruction
Topic Originator: AdamAntsParsStripe  
Date:   Mon 18 May 20:45

Quote:

dafc-chris1, Mon 18 May 20:24

We just need to draw a line under all of this and teams need to just accept their medicine and move on


You'd not be saying that if we were in Partick's situation or Stranraer.

If you only turn up to moan then do it elsewhere


Post Edited (Mon 18 May 20:46)
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 Re: No league reconstruction
Topic Originator: GG Riva  
Date:   Mon 18 May 21:00

Quote:

Sliema Par, Sat 16 May 14:16

Les Gray presented two options to the Premiership clubs.

The Anne Budge presentation will be for a temporary two year fix.

Rangers,Aberdeen and Celtic are amenable.

Source: Chris McLaughlin BBC Radio Scotland.


I think we can all safely bet our houses on this then. The big clubs will be able to convince the diddy ones somehow that this is in the best interests of Scottish football.



Not your average Sunday League player.
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 Re: No league reconstruction
Topic Originator: wetherby  
Date:   Mon 18 May 21:10

I would be rather annoyed if somehow ICT manage to get themselves promoted given their conduct.
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 Re: No league reconstruction
Topic Originator: da_no_1  
Date:   Mon 18 May 21:11

Quote:

AdamAntsParsStripe, Mon 18 May 20:45

Quote:

dafc-chris1, Mon 18 May 20:24

We just need to draw a line under all of this and teams need to just accept their medicine and move on


You'd not be saying that if we were in Partick's situation or Stranraer.


I bet there would be more than one holier-than-thou on here who'd tell us we'd have to show grace, class and accept it.

"Some days will stay a 1000 years, some pass like the flash of a spark"
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 Re: No league reconstruction
Topic Originator: widtink  
Date:   Mon 18 May 21:19

Sometimes life isn't fair...
Suck it up and get on with it.



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 Re: No league reconstruction
Topic Originator: dafc-chris1  
Date:   Mon 18 May 21:31

If we were in that position then we would get exactly what we deserved the fact of the matter is those teams weren't good enough over 75% of the league season and thats really all there is to say
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 Re: No league reconstruction
Topic Originator: jake89  
Date:   Mon 18 May 21:32

Budge needs to take advice from Disney and "let it go"
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 Re: No league reconstruction
Topic Originator: BigJPar  
Date:   Mon 18 May 21:39

If we vote for this I despair.
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 Re: No league reconstruction
Topic Originator: da_no_1  
Date:   Mon 18 May 22:06

Quote:

BigJPar, Mon 18 May 21:39

If we vote for this I despair.


Awwwww

"Some days will stay a 1000 years, some pass like the flash of a spark"
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 Re: No league reconstruction
Topic Originator: Row_ZZ  
Date:   Tue 19 May 09:12

There is 100% going to be some sort of reconstruction to save Hearts. It's always the same with the so called bigger clubs. But I won't complain anyway. The top flight should be a 16 team league.

I Know There's Gonna Be (Good Times)
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 Re: No league reconstruction
Topic Originator: GG Riva  
Date:   Tue 19 May 10:49

Quote:

Row_ZZ, Tue 19 May 09:12

There is 100% going to be some sort of reconstruction to save Hearts. It's always the same with the so called bigger clubs. But I won't complain anyway. The top flight should be a 16 team league.


None of us would complain if any increase to the top flight was permanent, but that wouldn't garner enough support from the Premiership clubs, as it would mean a smaller slice of the TV monies for them.

Like you, I'm convinced it will happen, but I don't know what stunt they'll pull to get the smaller clubs to vote for a temporary solution. Maybe offer them a slightly more equitable share of the cash from any future TV deal?



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 Re: No league reconstruction
Topic Originator: Socks  
Date:   Tue 19 May 10:54

I've been quite clear that I don't want reconstruction - I just don't think it's a good idea and what we have is OK.

However, for those of you who do want to see it, what is your take on temporary reconstruction? I get that you'd rather have a permanent change with a bigger top division, but if the choice is temporary change for one/two seasons or no change, which would you go for?
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 Re: No league reconstruction
Topic Originator: chewie  
Date:   Tue 19 May 11:06

To be fair, i don't see what harm a 12-12-10-10 set up would do. It gives benefit of doubt to smaller teams that were still really close to staying up / getting promoted.

Jambos still go down -they were adrift.
Inverness stay down - they were miles behind anyway.
Thistle stay up, their relegation was dodgy.
Falkirk and Edinburgh City benefit by going up. Falkirk can argue they had a decent chance of winning league. Edinburgh were miles behind but still had a chance through play off.
Kelty and Brora get their reward for winning league.

The only ones who you could argue would benefit unfairly are Stranraer, who had virtually no chance of staying up. In the rest of the cases, the best placed teams go up instead of play offs.

From a Pars point of view, the Championship would be ace with Rovers, Falkirk, Jambos, Dundee etc in it.
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 Re: No league reconstruction
Topic Originator: DBP  
Date:   Tue 19 May 11:08

They'll say it's for 2 years to be reviewed to decide if it's permanent (which is complete nonsense as all that means is that in 2 years it'll regress back)
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 Re: No league reconstruction
Topic Originator: Andrew283  
Date:   Tue 19 May 11:26

Perm change or reconstruction can gtf. 16-18 team top flight would be great to freshen things up, but the mental 11-1 voting structure (Wtf is that all about?) to change any funds being spread out kills that dead in the water. Honestly think its going to take some clubs going to the wall for any change to happen

Post Edited (Tue 19 May 12:13)
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 Re: No league reconstruction
Topic Originator: DBP  
Date:   Tue 19 May 11:36

Temp reconstruction even worse...
Save hearts now, get absolute carnage later
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 Re: No league reconstruction
Topic Originator: GG Riva  
Date:   Tue 19 May 14:37

Quote:

Socks, Tue 19 May 10:54

I've been quite clear that I don't want reconstruction - I just don't think it's a good idea and what we have is OK.

However, for those of you who do want to see it, what is your take on temporary reconstruction? I get that you'd rather have a permanent change with a bigger top division, but if the choice is temporary change for one/two seasons or no change, which would you go for?


What we have is OK, but no more than that. The lower leagues are competitive, but the Premiership will never be any more than a two horse race - and it's not even been that since the original Rangers collapsed in 2012. Changing the number of clubs will make no difference to that.

Competition is better than meaningless games, which is what you would get in a larger league when mismatches are ever more apparent. Small leagues mean meeting the same opponents at least 4 times a season which devalues even the more attractive fixtures. It also means younger players are less likely to be given starts as managers prefer to go with experience when games are crucial.

Having said that, Scotland doesn't have enough clubs of a high enough standard to support a top flight of 18 or even 16 teams. I think Belgium has a model in which there are play offs at the end of the regular season for top, middle and bottom clubs. What I don't like about that is that a team finishing 2nd, 3rd or lower in the regular season could be crowned champions and similarly at the foot with the club finishing bottom in the regular season avoiding relegation. (Hearts might like this set up.) I don't know what the middle play off group play for - might be a Europa League place.



Not your average Sunday League player.


Post Edited (Tue 19 May 14:38)
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 Re: No league reconstruction
Topic Originator: GG Riva  
Date:   Tue 19 May 18:00

Good on former captain, Gary McKay, who has come out and said Hearts are in danger of becoming the laughing stock of Scottish football.

I fear he's a tad late......



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 Re: No league reconstruction ~ yet
Topic Originator: sammer  
Date:   Tue 19 May 21:00

No matter how many teams are in a league, the majority of clubs will end up mid table. Creating small leagues where most of the teams are either fighting for promotion or relegation might generate tabloid headlines like ‘Derby Decider’ or ‘Relegation Battle’ but does this ersatz drama based on play-off positions actually increase interest in the game? I say ersatz because once the dust settles most of the teams still end up in mid table.

It also creates a new form of ‘meaningless’ game. You might find your side has finished in second place after hammering your rivals 5-0 earlier in the season and finishing well ahead of them on points, only for the play offs to promote them and not you. All of the games you watched where your side gained points on your rival were retrospectively made redundant. Of course you did not know that at the time, so in a sense you were being deceived. You believed that if your team played better and finished higher than your rivals then you would be duly rewarded for this: you might not be. This is a false league, a hotchpotch between a league and a knockout. Like the camel: a horse designed by a committee

I can’t see that the four mini league system that exists in Scotland is helpful to the national game. The weaknesses in Scottish football are about more than league reconstruction for sure, but it might be a reasonable place to start.
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 Re: No league reconstruction ~ yet
Topic Originator: sammer  
Date:   Wed 20 May 01:00

Democracy Gone Mad.

That was Hugh McIlvanney’s comment on how Scottish football was run in the 1960s, when a politburo headed by worthies from Queen of the South, Brechin and Stenhousemuir would decide the future of Scottish football. They picked the national team as well, which explains rather a lot. These butchers, bakers and candlestick makers have long since been replaced by executive managers, project managers and chief executives and they have, on far greater expenses no doubt, overseen the decline of our national game. Scottish football is a celebration of mediocrity; a mediocrity in the name of democracy where everyone finds their own level. And then sits tight.

Bob Crampsey once claimed that if most clubs played long enough they would eventually win something. He was wrong. 21 of the 42 senior clubs in Scotland have never won a senior trophy, not even a Cup in a good year. Stranraer, Forfar, Berwick Rangers and the like have an empty trophy cabinet, and more damningly, always will. No doubt they are reputable clubs with good people behind the scenes but, as John Lennon said to Blues singer George Melly in the Cavern Club around 1961, ‘You’re getting in the way, George. You’re a drag.’ Years later Melly agreed that Lennon was probably right. Yet Lennon always respected Melly as a blues singer.

In Scotland we don’t need four leagues. We only need one. We need to jettison clubs who are only making up the numbers. For convenience sake let’s call it the Scottish League. It comprises the best 16 teams in the country which fills 30 playing weeks of the football year. Most Scottish football supporters should have a team there they support in some form or other. We need no second division. We can have three regional leagues- Highland, Midland and Southern- whose winners would have automatic entry to the Scottish League. That prevents a closed shop and also stops the geographical and economic nonsense of Annan Athletic travelling up to play Brora Rangers- unless they both make the top division of course. If teams like Kelty Hearts can come through, so much the better.

GG Riva claimed Scotland would struggle to have a competitive league of 16 clubs yet in or own lifetimes 7 different teams have won the title. He then undermined his own argument by admitting it was a one horse race in any case. Do other European countries our size have a more competitive or better quality league? I doubt it. As for gaps in quality, do supporters dislike seeing their team hammer weak opposition? Not when I saw Bert Paton score his legendary goal in the 6-0 rout of Raith Rovers I didn’t. Did I stop watching the Pars after seeing Graham Fyfe of Rangers lead a 6-0 demolition of the Pars? No. I appreciated his skill on the day.
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 Re: No league reconstruction ~ yet
Topic Originator: sammer  
Date:   Wed 20 May 01:28

Hearts have one of the bigger supports in Scottish football yet there are some who welcome their relegation to a lower division. How on earth is Scottish football stronger with Hearts in a lower division? Shadenfreude or Dog in the Manger attitudes demean us all.

Here are the clubs who have finished in the TOP FOUR positions in the top division since 1946-47, with the number of times they have achieved this. Probably too far back for some, but any club who could not offer some sort of challenge within that time frame is asking for favours rather than justice. Good bye buskers like Falkirk, Airdrie and Hamilton.

1. Rangers * 67
2. Celtic * 61
3. Aberdeen * 39
4. Hearts * 31
5. Hibs * 23
6. Dundee Utd * 22
7. Kilmarnock * 13
8. Motherwell * 10
9. Dundee * 6
10. Dunfermline 6
11. St. Johnstone 6
12. East Fife 4
13. Partick 3
14. St. Mirren 2
15. Inverness 2
16. Clyde 2
17, Raith Rovers 1
18. Third Lanark 1
19. Livingstone 1

* denotes winner of title

I don’t suppose Third Lanark will be in a position to claim a place, whilst East Fife, Clyde and Raith Rovers might feel they are not quite ready. Ross County have had less opportunity than others and since they have actually won a Cup are worthy of consideration. That makes a neat 16.
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 Re: No league reconstruction ~ yet
Topic Originator: OzPar  
Date:   Wed 20 May 04:22

George Melly could probably be better described as a jazz singer rather than a blues singer. That said, he was, more than anything, an entertainer. They didn't call him "Good Time George" for nothing. He had a loyal but relatively small following.

The same could probably be said of the lesser lights of Scottish football. They entertain their following while pursuing little in the way of success.

Celtic and Rangers might be the big drawcards playing their popular hits just like John Lennon's Beatles, but let's not ignore the folksy lot who play the small venues to a tiny but enthusiastic following. They may not be fashionable, but where would we be without their contribution?

I hate all this talk about getting rid of clubs so as to create an elite "Scottish League".

Yes, a top league of 16 or 18 would be infinitely preferable to what we have now. But not as a stand-alone.

I don't want to see that come about at the expense of clubs like Stranraer or Brechin or Arboath or Stenhousemuir or anyone else who may not have won any silverware over the years. They still have a role to play in the Scottish game, whether that be finding and nurturing young talent or providing a transition to retirement for the older players.

Pure unadulterated greed was behind the break-up of the old Scottish league system. Here we are 22 years on looking at a structure that has been an abject failure for the majority of clubs.

The system needs fixing and the key to fixing it is to be found in a much fairer distribution of funds, not in the destruction of half the clubs.

First up on the agenda, bring an end to the 11-1 vote. It is an anachronism and patently unfair to all but two clubs. It is this that is stalling any meaningful progress in the Scottish game.
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 Re: No league reconstruction ~ yet
Topic Originator: GG Riva  
Date:   Wed 20 May 06:25

Sammer, on a wee roll there with three consecutive posts, trying to solve the conundrum which is Scottish football. His solution? One league of 16 clubs with 3 regional leagues below that. Hmm.....

The likes of Berwick, Brechin and Co. may never have won a national cup competition, but they don't impact much on the bigger clubs and live within their means, whereas the Premiership would be well and truly screwed if/when TV monies dry up. The small clubs had a place in the game in the 60s and 70s, developing young players, giving them first team football and selling them on to First Division clubs, some of whom were sold on again to English clubs. Money trickled down the food chain. Nowadays, every aspiring footballer wants to sign for Celtic or Rangers, who often oblige and then release the vast majority a few years later. Smaller clubs have, by and large, lost out on an income source which helped them to compete. Now they're grudgingly thrown a few scraps from the TV pot.

Breaking up the old, two league system increased the gap between the haves and have nots, as did the decision to allow home clubs to keep their own gate money, which is what I based my assertion that a 16 team league would be even less competitive than the present 12 team Premiership. Instead of having 4 or 5 clubs who can't win the league but are in no danger of relegation, you'd have 8 or 9. The other problem is that the top clubs would only have 15 home games as opposed to the present 19 and some against smaller clubs with smaller travelling supports leading to a significant drop in revenue. I can't see them ever going for that.

The suggestion that it's somehow "not right" that Hearts may have to play in the Championship or that fans of other clubs are gloating is flawed. Football must always work as a meritocracy. Hearts were bottom when the league was called. Yes, they might have been able to scrap their way out of it in the remaining games so it's not exactly fair but what's the alternative? Relegate the Accies instead because Hearts are too big to go down.

They tried that with Therangers in 2012, but the fans weren't having it.



Not your average Sunday League player.
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 Re: No league reconstruction ~ yet
Topic Originator: DBP  
Date:   Wed 20 May 08:38

What about the nuclear option?

An American style set up, new franchises representing cities / larger towns or conurbations. Fixed league and rosters from academies?

No mergers, etc entire thing dissolved and rebooted with different teams.

So (pinching from other teams names) it could be Lothian Lions vs Strathclyde Snapdragons

(would love to see the glory buses heading to Glasgow to shout on the (non bigotted / al inclusive and maybe less successful) Strathclyde Snapdragons
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 Re: No league reconstruction ~ yet
Topic Originator: veteraneastender  
Date:   Wed 20 May 09:55

The US scenario is light years away from us financially - the money in their professional sports is on a different planet.
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 Re: No league reconstruction ~ yet
Topic Originator: kelty_par  
Date:   Wed 20 May 13:10

Fair warning - this is a long post and the second part contains a lot of data.

"In Scotland we don’t need four leagues. We only need one. We need to jettison clubs who are only making up the numbers. For convenience sake let’s call it the Scottish League. It comprises the best 16 teams in the country which fills 30 playing weeks of the football year. Most Scottish football supporters should have a team there they support in some form or other. We need no second division. We can have three regional leagues- Highland, Midland and Southern- whose winners would have automatic entry to the Scottish League. That prevents a closed shop and also stops the geographical and economic nonsense of Annan Athletic travelling up to play Brora Rangers- unless they both make the top division of course. If teams like Kelty Hearts can come through, so much the better."

With all respect, that is rot. Not only rot, but elitist arrogant nonsense. Only 16 clubs you say? So we would have been stuck in these regional leagues only a few years ago. If we are to "have a football team to support" while we're down in those leagues, who do you suggest? Because I wouldn't be supporting any of the top 16. Getting rid of clubs to do this is just obscene. What harm are Forfar doing to the game? Why should these lower League clubs be binned when some of our best players started off there. Where would Andy Robertson be if he hadn't been given a chance by Queens Park. Pure nonsense.

Its also interesting that its always fans of "bigger" clubs who suggest regional leagues; if Brechin or Annan or Peterhead want to play in a national league and are good enough to play nationally and can manage to not bankrupt themselves while.doing so, who the hell are the bigger clubs to say that they can no longer do that? It also ignores the geography of Scotland where you will either have anomalies such as Kelty playing in the Highland League and Cowdenbeath in the Midland League just to pick a possible random example. And to compound it all, just 30 match days - 15 at home - doesn't provide enough matchday revenue for clubs.

"GG Riva claimed Scotland would struggle to have a competitive league of 16 clubs yet in or own lifetimes 7 different teams have won the title. He then undermined his own argument by admitting it was a one horse race in any case. Do other European countries our size have a more competitive or better quality league? I doubt it. As for gaps in quality, do supporters dislike seeing their team hammer weak opposition? Not when I saw Bert Paton score his legendary goal in the 6-0 rout of Raith Rovers I didn’t. Did I stop watching the Pars after seeing Graham Fyfe of Rangers lead a 6-0 demolition of the Pars? No. I appreciated his skill on the day."

OK, you asked so here goes (warning - lota and lots of data):

Serbia, Pop: 8,744,858

Top division: 16 teams, 2 x each, 30 games.
No. of winners since 2000: Two (Red Star Belgrade, Patrizan Belgrade)

Denmark, Pop: 5,789,709

Top division: 14 teams, 2 x each then 6/8 split, 38/40 games. (Was 12/12 until 2016)
No. of winners since 2000: Six (Helfoge, FC Copenhagen, Brondby, AaB, Nordjaeland, Midtjylland)

Finland, Pop: 5,540,792

Top division: 12 teams, 3 x each, 33 games.
No. of winners since 2000: Seven (Haka, TamU, Inter, HJK, SJK, IFK, KuPS)

Slovakia, Pop: 5,460,615

Top division: 12 teams, 3 matches then 6/6 split, 38 games, then Europa League play-offs (4th, 5th, 6th, 7th) if Cup winner has already qualified for Europe.
No. of winners since 2000: Six (Inter, MSK, Artmedia, Slovan Bratislava, AS Trencin, Spartak Trnava)

Scotland, Pop: 5,463,300

Top division: 12 teams, 3 matches then 6/6 split.
No. of winners since 2000: Two (Celtic, Rangers)


Norway, Pop: 5,415,930

Top division: 16 teams, 2 x each, 30 matches.
No. of winners since 2000: Six (Rosenborg, Vålerenga, Brann Bergen, Stæbek, Molde, Stømgodset)

Rep of Ireland, Pop: 4,940,642

Top division: 10 teams, 4x each, 36 games, Summer league.
No. of winners since 2000: Eight (Bohemians, Shelborne, Cork City, Drogheda, Shamrock Rovers, Sligo, St Pat's, Dundalk)

Croatia, Pop: 4,106,953

Top division: 10 teams, 4x each, 36 matches.
No. of winners since 2000: Four (Hadjuk Split, NK Zagreb, Dinamo Zagreb, Rijeka)

So actually, of the countries similar in size there aren't that many with what you'd call "big leagues" and most of them have had multiple winners over the last 20 years. The advent and increased financial muscle of the Champions League has had a bigger impact. Look at the bigger nations, with bigger leagues and look at their recent history -

Germany, Pop: 83,871,995

Top division: 18 teams, 2x each, 34 matches.
No. of winners since 2000: Five (Bayern, Dortmund, Werder Bremen, Stuttgart, Wolfsburg) - last 10 titles were won by Bayern (8) or Dortmund (2).

Turkey, Pop: 84,422,510

Top division: 18 teams, 2x each, 34 matches.
No. of winners since 2000: Five (Galatasaray, Fenerbache, Besiktas, Buraspor) - Buraspor only won once and the "big three" have won the rest since 1984 when Trabzonspor won it.

France, Pop: 65,255,278

Top division: 20 teams, 2x each, 38 matches.
No. of winners since 2000: Eight (Monaco, Lyon (7 in a row), Bordeaux, Marseille, Lille, PSG, Nantes, Montpellier) - last 10 titles were won by PSG (6), Monaco, Lille and Montpellier.

Italy, Pop: 60,480,665

Top division: 20 teams, 2x each, 38 matches.
No. of winners since 2000: Two (AS Roma, Inter, AC Milan, Juventus) - last 10 titles have been won by Juventus (8), Inter and AC Milan (1 each)

England, Pop: 56,286,961

Top division: 20 teams, 2x each, 38 matches.
No. of winners since 2000: Five (Man Utd, Chelsea, Arsenal, Man City, Leicester)

Spain, Pop: 46,776,338

Top division: 20 teams, 2x each, 38 matches.
No. of winners since 2000: Two (Real Madrid, Barcelona, Valencia, Atletico Madrid) - last 10 seasons won by Barcelona (7), Real Madrid (2), Atletico Madrid (1).

Poland, Pop: 37,857,352

Top division: 16 teams, 2x each for 30 matches then 8/8 split for a total of 37.
No. of winners since 2000: Six (Wisla, Legia, Zaglebie, Lech Poznan, Slask, Plast Gliwiche)

Ukraine, Pop: 43,767,60

Top division: 12 teams, 3 matches then 6/6 split.
No. of winners since 2000: Two (Dinamo Kyiv, Shaktar)

The structure of the League isn't as important as it may appear.
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 Re: No league reconstruction ~ yet
Topic Originator: DBP  
Date:   Wed 20 May 15:39

kudos for pulling it together

i think you can still have a competitive league, albeit it's won by the nations bigger / better teams when it's all done and dusted... so like all of these things, i'm not sure that one measure gives the wider picture?

how financially healthy is their leagues, how often do the other teams swap places and/or how often do they get close to the bigger teams, how often do those other teams win other competitions, e.g. cups

is there any correlation between, less teams that become more 'healthy' e.g. in terms of support in terms and the revenue or general interest in the game?
is there any correlation between more vibrant competitive leagues (albeit still dominated by the usual suspects) and the national teams success?

for me, there's a big difference between going to a half empty stadium to watch us play against a team that has a small support, to going to a mostly full stadium to watch a team that has a large support - even if neither of us are going to win the league
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 Re: No league reconstruction ~ yet
Topic Originator: Parahandy  
Date:   Wed 20 May 15:46

If you want more competition then you are going to need to have teams representing larger population areas - eg Fife United with all 4 teams amalgamated. Yes you would get hold outs dead against it but if Fife beat Rangers and Celtic to win a trophy that would change many folks views. However, most folks wish to stick with tradition and their own club rather than change to compete
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 Re: No league reconstruction ~ yet
Topic Originator: veteraneastender  
Date:   Wed 20 May 15:55

Fans don't want their club being incorporated into a larger localised entity.

A non starter IMO.
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 Re: No league reconstruction ~ yet
Topic Originator: eastendalloapar  
Date:   Wed 20 May 15:57

The biggest difference in all of these leagues to the Scottish ones are the 2 main Glasgow teams. Due to Glasgow being in the centre of the religious biggetry the teams have for more fans than any other club. That way financially they can buy better players and as such have won our top division more times than anyone else. That has and will always be the way. TV companies know that therefore they provide good TV figures when they play each other. If they only play each other twice TV would not like it, therefore the top league structure couldn't allow that.

matt forsyth
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 Re: No league reconstruction ~ yet
Topic Originator: DBP  
Date:   Wed 20 May 16:06

I think most fans wouldn't initially but I'm sure some would.

Perhaps we could start with a county type cup over a summer. Said on here loads of times but always jealous of the county gaa stuff where most individual teams don't get much support, but the whole county gets behind the all Ireland
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 Re: No league reconstruction ~ yet
Topic Originator: sammer  
Date:   Wed 20 May 16:08

Kelty Par,

Thanks for taking the time to reply and also post about other European leagues. Norway’s 16 team league looks competitive but then Croatia with 10 teams has certainly produced good international players recently.

I don’t accept it’s elitist to have a top league so long as it’s open to everyone and not run as a cartel. At no point did I wish to eliminate other clubs or stop them playing competitively; I would be delighted if a club like Brechin could battle their way into a 16 team league. And if the Pars were poor enough to be relegated from a national league then that unfortunately is what should happen. But for all that a day out at Glebe Park is a very pleasant experience I cannot see how at present, with attendances hovering around 400 spectators, Brechin have a part to play in a national, as opposed to a regional league. Forfar could still blood players like Craig Brewster just as Alloa once did John White and Tommy Hutchison but entry to a national league would be earned, not granted by right.

What harm are the likes of Stenhousemuir and Montrose doing? No more than George Melly (a jazz singer, as Ozpar pointed out) was doing at the Cavern Club in 1961. It’s even possible Melly had a small influence on the Beatles music but he was cluttering up the stage and diluting the rock n roll audience with his trad jazz fans from Allerton. Rock became the mass music while Jazz retreated into a minority taste. In a similar way I think full time professional clubs playing to thousands of spectators have to maintain, or maybe even grow, their mass audience and they can’t do that effectively if tied to teams which consider 600 spectators a decent crowd.

I concede that no regionalisation process is ever entirely logical, but would expect boundaries to be made in the manner of great enterprises like the British Empire and the USSR: with a bent ruler and a keen sense of politics.

Regarding Hearts they can few complaints. But my point was that the 10 team set up has relegated clubs with big supports which I don’t think is healthy in a small country like Scotland. And I wasn’t serious about saying goodbye to Hamilton, even if their last cup final was a century ago: obviously any league reconstruction would be based on current performance. And as GG reminded us, allocation of monies is a bigger factor at the end of the day than league structure.
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 Re: No league reconstruction ~ yet
Topic Originator: Buspasspar  
Date:   Wed 20 May 16:18

Two leagues of 22 share gate money helping all the smaller clubs 4 up 4 down simples
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 Re: No league reconstruction ~ yet
Topic Originator: GG Riva  
Date:   Wed 20 May 16:46

Quote:

Buspasspar, Wed 20 May 16:18

Two leagues of 22 share gate money helping all the smaller clubs 4 up 4 down simples


Take 2 tablets and lie down, BPP.

You'll feel better in the morning. 🙂



Not your average Sunday League player.
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 Re: No league reconstruction ~ yet
Topic Originator: AdamAntsParsStripe  
Date:   Wed 20 May 17:25

Quote:

Parahandy, Wed 20 May 15:46

If you want more competition then you are going to need to have teams representing larger population areas - eg Fife United with all 4 teams amalgamated. Yes you would get hold outs dead against it but if Fife beat Rangers and Celtic to win a trophy that would change many folks views. However, most folks wish to stick with tradition and their own club rather than change to compete


A Fife United would not be a major force even in the unlikely hypothetical situation that all the fans of the four Fife teams supported it.
In that scenario you'd be looking at 6000 max at its most optimistic figure but I'd say at least 50% of club supporters wouldn't support it in the first place so then you're looking at a few thousand fans attending on average for a long long time really.
Inverness Caley Thistle are an example where they really don't attract more fans despite the two City's teams amalgamating in the late 90's.
Financially as well, how much better off would a combined Fife team be as compared to Dunfermline just now?
I'd argue not very much when you look at the finances of our rivals.
Why would we even want to go down this road anyway?
Over 90% of our clubs have survived for over a century as they are and are important parts of their communities however big or small.

If you only turn up to moan then do it elsewhere
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 Re: No league reconstruction ~ yet
Topic Originator: da_no_1  
Date:   Wed 20 May 18:12

Stop for a minute and think how much moaning would get done if Fife United got beat

"Some days will stay a 1000 years, some pass like the flash of a spark"
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 Re: No league reconstruction ~ yet
Topic Originator: Buspasspar  
Date:   Wed 20 May 18:45

Quote :-
Topic Originator: GG Riva like | nolike
Date: Wed 20 May 16:46

Take 2 tablets and lie down, BPP.

You'll feel better in the morning. 🙂

LOL GG

Aye think I've been in the sun too long today :)
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 Re: No league reconstruction ~ yet
Topic Originator: jake89  
Date:   Wed 20 May 20:15

Couldn't support a Fife Utd. It'd end up being based in Glenrothes between a 70s industrial estate and a roundabout.

As for Hearts, the whole argument that they should stay in the Premiership because of their standing in Scottish football is laughable. If that's the case then we should give up now and just give league positions based on crowds (would mean a promotion for us!).

Scotland could and should support bigger leagues but we also need to look at funding distribution. A strong Old Firm buying up the best players from teams beneath them benefits noone. It would actually be good for Celtic and Rangers to have greater competition. There's no point walking the league to then get pumped in the Champions League.
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 Re: No league reconstruction ~ yet
Topic Originator: Parahandy  
Date:   Wed 20 May 21:07

Fife United though would attract fans from out with the current 4 clubs as well though.
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 Re: No league reconstruction ~ yet
Topic Originator: da_no_1  
Date:   Wed 20 May 22:11

The very thought makes me boak.

"Some days will stay a 1000 years, some pass like the flash of a spark"
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 Re: No league reconstruction ~ yet
Topic Originator: jake89  
Date:   Wed 20 May 22:37

Quote:

Parahandy, Wed 20 May 21:07

Fife United though would attract fans from out with the current 4 clubs as well though.


Unlikely. We've probably got a bigger support than all the other Fife teams put together. Would you still feel a strong affiliation with a club playing in a town you didn't live in or have any distinct links to?

Fife, like much of Scotland is filled with Old Firm fans.
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 Re: No league reconstruction ~ yet
Topic Originator: red-star-par  
Date:   Wed 20 May 22:48

Normally every single post Sammer has on this site is pure gold, but I can't agree with his post at 1am today. Every club in Scotland has a right to exist, if anything the clubs like Forfar, Arbroath and Montrose are better run that some top flight clubs. I think the league set up is pretty good, but I would quite like to see promotion and relegation opened up at the bottom of the fourth tier with two up two down to allow the clubs in the pyramid to progress
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 Re: No league reconstruction ~ yet
Topic Originator: sammer  
Date:   Wed 20 May 23:33

Red Star,

I repeat that I want the clubs like Alloa, Forfar, Brechin and Queen of the South to exist and maybe even thrive. If they are good enough to make the national league of 16 then they will be a welcome addition. Outside of that they can play in a regional set up.

My issue is that we have ersatz senior clubs who have neither the wherewithal nor the ambition to compete credibly within a professional league but who skew the way in which the existing leagues are run. I am, like you as I suspect from your name tag and various posts, a socialist at heart but that does not mean levelling down the strong to the level of the weak.
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 Re: No league reconstruction ~ yet
Topic Originator: Andrew283  
Date:   Thu 21 May 00:54

Imagine travelling to Glenrothes to watch some abomination franchise Fife United? Christ if anything like that happened I'd just spend my money on a BT sports sub and continue watching the Malaga games on YouTube with their La Liga deal. Awful awful idea
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 Re: No league reconstruction ~ yet
Topic Originator: 1970par  
Date:   Thu 21 May 05:25

Fife United is a non starter, whatever you chose to call it makes no difference there is no chance that all of the support in the county would transfer their support to a new hybrid club
If even 50% decided to travel to anywhere other than Dunfermline then the gate would actually drop

Any proposal which leads to a bigger top league will never garner enough support due to Sky insistent on x 4 glasgow derbies

The top league will only be one stronger once the better supported clubs rise again (and Aberdeen apart) the clubs are from the central belt where most of the population is

A top league where you have the listed below clubs is the most sensible league where teams are generating larger crowds (and therefore more finance) would be more attractive to Sky and therefore advertisers

Celtic
Rangers
Dundee
Dundee Utd
Aberdeen
Hearts
Hibs
Motherwell
Dunfermline
Falkirk
St Mirren
Morton
Partick
St Johnston
Morton

Continuous derby games, reduced travel, larger gates
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 Re: No league reconstruction ~ yet
Topic Originator: Lambo1885  
Date:   Thu 21 May 08:12

"Regarding Hearts they can few complaints. But my point was that the 10 team set up has relegated clubs with big supports which I don’t think is healthy in a small country like Scotland."

How many fans or how 'big' a club is has no, and shouldn't have any, bearing on what league they play in. The fact that Hearts, now twice, Hibs, Dundee and Dundee Utd have all been relegated in recent season shows that outwith the Glasgow 2 we have a fairly competitive league where small well run clubs, St Johnston, Hamilton, Alloa, Arbroath, can punch well above their weight. Which imo IS healthy for our league.
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 Re: No league reconstruction ~ yet
Topic Originator: kelty_par  
Date:   Thu 21 May 08:33

"I repeat that I want the clubs like Alloa, Forfar, Brechin and Queen of the South to exist and maybe even thrive. If they are good enough to make the national league of 16 then they will be a welcome addition. Outside of that they can play in a regional set up.

My issue is that we have ersatz senior clubs who have neither the wherewithal nor the ambition to compete credibly within a professional league but who skew the way in which the existing leagues are run. I am, like you as I suspect from your name tag and various posts, a socialist at heart but that does not mean levelling down the strong to the level of the weak."

1. Who are you to say these clubs should play regional when they are happy and have been happy for decades to play nationally? What benefit does regional football give to these clubs? People might think "more derbies" but who would e.g. Queen of the South be playing? Gretna 2008, Annan, Stranraer and... Don't you think Queen of the South benefit from the exposure and "prestige" of being in a national league? Don't they benefit from supports from Dunfermline, the Dundee clubs, Hearts next season visiting Palmerston? Don't the club have a better chance attracting and maintaining fans by being in a league with those clubs than jobbing about part time?

2. If you have one League of professional clubs and the next level down is essentially semi-pro and regional then you I'm effect end up with what you claim you don't want - a closed shop. Any team gaining promotion will be woefully inadequate in terms of players, finance, infrastructure, experience... it would be nearly impossible for any semi pro club to get into this new top flight and survive. Going the other way, as long as the relegated team can keep most of their players (and they are happy playing in a regional set up having been playing nationally) then they will be overwhelmingly favourites to come back up. Unless a small club had a golden generation of players who they could keep at the club despite only being a semi pro regional club, or a Ferguson type manager or a sugar daddy, you'll have the same 16 clubs almost every year with very little movement. It wouldn't be long before the clubs did demand a closed shop or a play off because the drop from the national league to the regionals would be too big.

3. What do you mean by "compete credibly in a professional league"? Arbroath are part time but well above us in the table and above the likes of Partick, Falkirk, Raith and Airdrie. Cove with wealthy backers will look to make an impact in League One next season. Part time clubs like Cowdenbeath, Dumbarton and Brechin (although admittedly the latter aren't a good example) have all been Championship clubs in recent memory and the former two did well, as did Raith who employed a hybrid model. Most football fans would not include Ayr Utd and Queen of the South in a top 16 clubs of Scotland list but they have both qualified for the Premiership play offs and reached a cup final in recent memory. Seems to me that many clubs are competing credibly.

4. In what way are these clubs "skew[ing] the way in which existing leagues are run"? Whst does that mean? How does Brechin or Annan or Montrose skew the Premiership? How does their existence affect the top clubs? Other than taking a minuscule amount of TV money and taking part in the cups, I'm not seeing how they are doing anything that changes the make up of our game at all.
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 Re: No league reconstruction ~ yet
Topic Originator: Parahandy  
Date:   Thu 21 May 09:19

Those against Fife United though can be seen as the dinosaurs. Unhappy re the present set up and Old Firm dominance but not willing to do anything radical enough to change things. A different mind set would evolve for many though if a genuine Fife team was built - a much wider catchment with a new generation of fans - the luddites would be like those few Caley and Thistle fans chuntering away about the old days
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 Re: No league reconstruction ~ yet
Topic Originator: veteraneastender  
Date:   Thu 21 May 09:38

Why not conduct a poll ?

The dinosaurs and Luddites v the fantasist dreamers !!!
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 Re: No league reconstruction ~ yet
Topic Originator: DBP  
Date:   Thu 21 May 10:59

I think the issue is we talk about county teams in the context of the existing set up.
If there was no old firm, but a team that represented Glasgow, then would that have the same draw for all the glory buses? Would that mean that the kids of those glory bussers would also support Glasgow United... Or if it was Fife v Glasgow, would more people think that Fife represents me and my area?
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 Re: No league reconstruction ~ yet
Topic Originator: jake89  
Date:   Thu 21 May 12:33

Perhaps consider Fife has one ice hockey team. Where do most of their fans come from?

Assuming a central base like Glenrothes, would fans from Dunfermline, Kirkcaldy, Cowdenbeath, St Andrews etc really travel 15+ miles to watch a team in another town? Okay, plenty from Fife do the same to watch the OF but a Fife Utd? ICT is like comparing apples and oranges. They were two clubs in the same town. We're talking 4 professional clubs across a whole region.
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 Re: No league reconstruction ~ yet
Topic Originator: McCaig`s Tower  
Date:   Thu 21 May 19:24

I haven’t really been following this thread – I think we (and I) have other things to worry about right now – but elsewhere I was pointed in this direction.

I’ll make a few comments. (I have no solutions, however).

Firstly, what are we trying to achieve? A better international team? More success “in Europe”? A bigger industry? Or just juggling the distribution of income? And does any proposal achieve its goal?

In particular - how would it affect my club over the next 20 years? How much money will we make? How much could we lose? What will crowds be like? How far will I have to travel? How much chance will my team have of winning a trophy? If I were on the BoD I’d be saying “show me the numbers!”

We have had numerous attempt at reconstruction in my life-time and I’m not convinced that they have made things better. For example, I think the formation of the SPL was a bad move, if not a disaster for Scottish Football.

The idea seemed to be to create an elite of 10-12 teams, which would be bigger and better – bigger crowds, bigger TV deal, better (all-seater) stadia. I think the burgers and Bovril were to be better as well.

But if you weren’t in the elite – tough. You were encouraged to spend money you didn’t have on unsustainable wages and high maintenance stadia that would sit empty most of the year in order to gain access.

Such an argument is basically over slicing of the same cake in slightly different ways – there will be winners and losers and it’s great if you are a winner, less so if you are a loser. For it to be worthwhile, you need the slices to be much larger (and hence much smaller for others) or have a much larger cake.

One particular issue seems to be that whilst there is a large gap between (potential) fanbase of the largest club and the 6th largest club, say, there is not much of a gap between the 6th and the 20th.

It is not that hard to imagine a club, with the correct mix of finance, skill, ability and luck to reach a top 12, and stay there for a lengthy period, given access to the relative riches. Falkirk and Partick and Dundee could do that. Or, perish the thought, Livi or Hamilton or Ross County. The SFL was a closed shop for years – if you happened to be in the league due to an accident of history, then in it you stayed. The population shifts from city centres to new towns and suburbs went unrecognised. Safety bred complacency. You don’t want to repeat that mistake.

In other words – there is no obvious and fair way of top-slicing a top 10 or 12 or even 16 such that it doesn’t exclude good and deserving clubs except by merit on the park. But you need some turnover to allow the others their chance and for ambitious clubs to get on. But (and here’s the rub) too much turnover may breed insecurity and safety-first football. Where to strike the balance? If you are not in the top flight you will argue for 4 up 4 down until such times as you are in the top flight, when suddenly you want 1 up 1 down at most.

A second issue is what one might call the Motherwell/Montrose paradox. (Or possibly the HMV problem).

I wasn’t a great record buyer (grandad) but I know people who were, and they bemoaned the loss of record shops from the high street (whilst simultaneously buying all their music online from Amazon or whoever). People say they want something, but may not actually support it in practice.

I enjoyed our trip to Borehamwood. I think most fans who went did. It was one of the best things about being a Pars fan over the last few seasons. I would relish a trip to Montrose – it would be a good day out, and a possible win. Many “core” fans might agree. Most seem to want larger divisions with less repetition. But the board would rather we play Motherwell 4 times a season. In other words, whilst fans say they want more variety, the finances may say we need less of it. And whilst season-ticket holders may be loyal customers, the board needs to attract the transient fan. If we have a 30 game season, we have 3 fewer home games. What’s that - £150k in lost income? How do we make that up? Maybe we don’t and the players will have to take a 15% pay cut (or more).

Of course, you could always have another cup competition to make up the numbers – such as a “Spring Cup” – although I think that wasn’t a success. Management often treat such competitions as an annoyance. We will have a beefed up Fife Cup due to the changes in Junior football – I’m a fan, it offers an intermediate competition between reserve and first team football and it’s not entirely meaningless but again, management may not share my view

As for regionalisation – it makes sense – at some level. There’s little point having a national division seven where Orkney plays Tarff Rovers one week and Eyemouth Utd the next. (I know Tarff don’t exist any more). It’s nice to play your local rivals (and there is a climate emergency, apparently) so the days of travelling vast distances may be gone. But we don’t want a Glasgow League and an Edinburgh league, with the winners playing off for the national title.

As for the pyramid – one of the most welcome developments in the last 10 years (IMO) – it allows a refresh, and new blood. But it creates difficulties. Rumour had it that Brora didn’t fancy winning the play-off a few years ago, as they thought they faced a combination of long journeys and getting beat any other week. I’m not sure how sustainable their model is.

Franchises – a no for me. But, it strikes me that we have something similar already. To what extent is Stranraer a central belt team who plays in Stranraer? And Livi is essentially one. As is Caledonian Braves, I would have thought.

Mergers. I used to have a theory that the fans would only vote for something if they were virtually guaranteed to be able to compete at a higher level – so for Inverness it meant league football (or indeed, top-flight football); for Dundee (and this nearly happened a few years ago) it would mean European football most years, for Hibs and Hearts a team able to challenge for the title. I’m not sure this conjecture holds (despite some of today’s clubs having started as mergers - Ayr United and Aberdeen I think)

Finally – the elephant in the room. Celtic and Rangers. Their dominance may be a bad thing. We are told (and it may well be true) that any TV deal is contingent on having 95 Celtic Rangers clashes per season. I suspect people elsewhere view it as a bit of a freak-show – secretly hoping for some controversy. That can’t be healthy either, but I’m not sure what to do about it.



Post Edited (Thu 21 May 19:32)
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 Re: No league reconstruction ~ yet
Topic Originator: GJS93  
Date:   Tue 26 May 19:26

Ann Budge doing her best Theresa May impression, come back with the same plan!!

get this in the bin once and for all!

https://www.heartsfc.co.uk/news/article/club-update-1-2-3

the proposal itself...

https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/sport/football/5636897/hearts-spfl-reconstruction-proposal-in-full/?utm_source=whatsapp&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=sharebarweb

a couple of lines
"“This is not the time to be expelling one of the League’s biggest and best resourced Clubs from the Premiership.“
“In short, the Premiership needs Hearts more than the Championship does.”



Post Edited (Tue 26 May 20:00)
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 Re: No league reconstruction ~ yet
Topic Originator: Frank Butchers LoveHandles  
Date:   Tue 26 May 21:31

Breathtaking arrogance from Budge and Hearts. Let's reconstruct the League to save our asses and the absolute mess I've made of running the club over the last couple of years instead of trying to find a long term solution for the good of Scottish Football.

Awight Pat!
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 Re: No league reconstruction ~ yet
Topic Originator: Rusty Shackleford  
Date:   Tue 26 May 21:48

Brilliant post from McCaig's Tower there.
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 Re: No league reconstruction ~ yet
Topic Originator: 1985Par  
Date:   Tue 26 May 21:50

Bin the whole thing till next March and pick up where we left off. The 2019/20 season becomes the 2019/20/21 season in light of a global pandemic.

May not be contractually or commercially viable but show me an option that is.

Current plans seem to be paving the way for 2 half-assed, botched-up seasons instead of one elongated one.



Post Edited (Tue 26 May 21:55)
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 Re: No league reconstruction ~ yet
Topic Originator: da_no_1  
Date:   Tue 26 May 22:42

They won't win many friends with the tone of that statement. Arrogant sevco wannabes

"Some days will stay a 1000 years, some pass like the flash of a spark"
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 Re: No league reconstruction ~ yet
Topic Originator: OzPar  
Date:   Wed 27 May 01:03

<<Firstly, what are we trying to achieve? A better international team? More success “in Europe”? A bigger industry? Or just juggling the distribution of income? And does any proposal achieve its goal?>>


I really hate the term "industry" being applied to a sport. It takes away the fundamental reasoning behind the game and replaces it with thinking that is based purely on economics.

Yes, of course, right now the game is under serious economic threat, but I would argue that it was the decision to invite TV money into the game that makes its survival just now so tenuous.
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 Re: No league reconstruction ~ yet
Topic Originator: Sliema Par  
Date:   Wed 27 May 06:49

After nine weeks of debate we will learn today if 14-14-14 is acceptable for the next two years.

It could be many years till such an opportunity arises again.

The voting in the Premiership has to be 9-3, as Brian McLachlan BBC Radio Scotland has outlined.

There is support for the proposal among Championship.League 1 and 2 clubs.

Only St Mirren of the "usual suspects" are publicly against with Hamilton Accies and Ross County suggesting they are in favour.

The treatment of Hearts,Partick Th,Falkirk,Stranraer,Edinburgh City and Kelty Hearts has been wretched but this resolves it.

Furthermore,League 1 and 2 clubs are likely to be mothballed but Falkirk and Partick Th cannot go down that road.

In a normal season we could look forward to an average Gate well over 5000 given the make up of the new Division.It would be easier to get promotion then to stay in the top tier.
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 Re: No league reconstruction ~ yet
Topic Originator: GJS93  
Date:   Wed 27 May 08:07

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/sportsnews/article-8359477/Scottish-Championship-clubs-set-REJECT-proposal-Hearts-owner-Ann-Budge-three-leagues-14.html?ito=amp_twitter_share-top

oops....
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 Re: No league reconstruction ~ yet
Topic Originator: GG Riva  
Date:   Wed 27 May 08:24

I think this has a good chance of going ahead, but nobody should be kidded that it's anything other than a ploy to keep Hearts in the Premiership and ICT will get their reward for all their recent posturing and spin.

What gives the game away is the admission that this is just a temporary 'fix.' In two years time, we'll almost certainly go back to the status quo.

It's a self preservation society......



Not your average Sunday League player.
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 Re: No league reconstruction ~ yet
Topic Originator: Lambo1885  
Date:   Wed 27 May 08:36

"I think this has a good chance of going ahead, but nobody should be kidded that it's anything other than a ploy to keep Hearts in the Premiership and ICT will get their reward for all their recent posturing and spin.

What gives the game away is the admission that this is just a temporary 'fix.' In two years time, we'll almost certainly go back to the status quo."

This is the whole reason it shouldn't happen. As for ICT, they can ram it too.
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 Re: No league reconstruction ~ yet
Topic Originator: DunfyDave  
Date:   Wed 27 May 08:54

Quote:

Rusty Shackleford, Tue 26 May 21:48

Brilliant post from McCaig's Tower there.


^^^ I second that.

DunfyDave
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 Re: No league reconstruction ~ yet
Topic Originator: DBP  
Date:   Wed 27 May 09:00

If the league is foolish enough to accept this for two years then shame on them.

And welcome to the world slowest car crash and the carnage that will be returning it back to the status quo

Outrageous!
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 Re: No league reconstruction ~ yet
Topic Originator: AdamAntsParsStripe  
Date:   Wed 27 May 09:13

Quote:

Sliema Par, Wed 27 May 06:49

After nine weeks of debate we will learn today if 14-14-14 is acceptable for the next two years.

It could be many years till such an opportunity arises again.

The voting in the Premiership has to be 9-3, as Brian McLachlan BBC Radio Scotland has outlined.

There is support for the proposal among Championship.League 1 and 2 clubs.

Only St Mirren of the "usual suspects" are publicly against with Hamilton Accies and Ross County suggesting they are in favour.

The treatment of Hearts,Partick Th,Falkirk,Stranraer,Edinburgh City and Kelty Hearts has been wretched but this resolves it.

Furthermore,League 1 and 2 clubs are likely to be mothballed but Falkirk and Partick Th cannot go down that road.

In a normal season we could look forward to an average Gate well over 5000 given the make up of the new Division.It would be easier to get promotion then to stay in the top tier.


I'm not too sure how this resolves the Kelty and Brora situation.
14-14-14 means neither join the league.

The second proposal of 16 in the third tier means an 11-1 vote rather than 9-3 in the Premier League.

If you only turn up to moan then do it elsewhere
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 Re: No league reconstruction ~ yet
Topic Originator: GJS93  
Date:   Wed 27 May 09:27

its an 11-1 vote in the Premier League regardless of Kelty and Brora as the prize money distribution will change.
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 Re: No league reconstruction ~ yet
Topic Originator: eastendalloapar  
Date:   Wed 27 May 09:50

It's all about saving Hearts from relegation. The sooner that other chairmen get this the better. If it had been St Mirren, Ross County, Hamilton, St Johnstone or Livingston there would be no reconstruction. Anyone else agree with me.

matt forsyth
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 Re: No league reconstruction ~ yet
Topic Originator: Sliema Par  
Date:   Wed 27 May 10:40

When I was at school I hated Maths.

Yet there were times I came to the correct answer but with the wrong workings.

That is what has happened here.

Ann Budge has been undeniably brazen in putting forward her proposal.

Yet this is the best chance in three long decades to sort the League Structure.

Have no doubt it will benefit Dunfermline.

Brian McLachlin said a 9-3 Premiership vote was necessary as it would not affect the Articles Of Association in the way 14-14-16 would.

The SPFL will save on the Hearts parachute payment.
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 Re: No league reconstruction ~ yet
Topic Originator: DBP  
Date:   Wed 27 May 10:53

if it was permanent and by accident we stumbled upon a solution that would be to the benefit of scottish football then i'd give you that...

but if it's temporary then it's an absolute disgrace and in 2 yrs time will be a disaster

curious to know your thoughts on how it will help dunfermline mind you?
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 Re: No league reconstruction ~ yet
Topic Originator: DA-go Par Adonis  
Date:   Wed 27 May 10:54

No, it's a chance to save Hearts and then put the wee clubs back in their box in 2 years' time. I hope they tell her to GTF.

She believes that we should only have 20-22 professional clubs in Scotland but suddenly wants 28 in the top 2 leagues?

What's her process for getting back to the current structure? It would seem to me to involve relegating 7 sides from the Championship the season after next. Will Hearts help fund the parachute payments for those clubs?

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 Re: No league reconstruction ~ yet
Topic Originator: DBP  
Date:   Wed 27 May 11:00

I think it's more than 7 relegations from championship in 2 years time

If we have 3 promotions from a 14 team league... Then it will be 9 relegations, ie, teams in position 1,2&3 promoted to spl, teams in position 4 and 5 stay in championship and other 9 teams relegated

Also in that scenario, the 5 teams coming down from the championship will have had increased revenue so further disadvantaging the remaining teams

Post Edited (Wed 27 May 11:21)
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 Re: No league reconstruction ~ yet
Topic Originator: Sliema Par  
Date:   Wed 27 May 11:28

We are all forgetting one thing.

This will likely be a success and you don't mend anything which works.Michael Stewart has argued that for weeks.

Dunfermline would have far more chance of being promoted and then staying in the top tier.

As for quoting a tired English Tory newspaper,words fail me.

I respectfully suggest you buy a Scottish Quality newspaper.Both "The Scotsman" or "The Herald" have incisive articles and analysis.
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 Re: No league reconstruction ~ yet
Topic Originator: AdamAntsParsStripe  
Date:   Wed 27 May 11:38

Quote:

Sliema Par, Wed 27 May 11:28

We are all forgetting one thing.

This will likely be a success and you don't mend anything which works.Michael Stewart has argued that for weeks.

Dunfermline would have far more chance of being promoted and then staying in the top tier.

As for quoting a tired English Tory newspaper,words fail me.

I respectfully suggest you buy a Scottish Quality newspaper.Both "The Scotsman" or "The Herald" have incisive articles and analysis.


You lost me with your last paragraph.

If you only turn up to moan then do it elsewhere
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 Re: No league reconstruction ~ yet
Topic Originator: Sliema Par  
Date:   Wed 27 May 11:51

GJS93 had highlighted an article in the "Daily Mail".
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 Re: No league reconstruction ~ yet
Topic Originator: King Kozma  
Date:   Wed 27 May 12:55

The SPFL would be better first establishing which clubs would find it viable to play behind closed doors and taking it from there.

Hearts would get a lot more sympathy from other clubs, if it became clear that they and a few other Championship clubs didn't have a league to play in next season.

A temporary expanded top flight of the clubs willing to play, would seem sensible.

How you sort of who's in which league when the other clubs come out of hibernation I have no idea.
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 Re: No league reconstruction ~ yet
Topic Originator: Lambo1885  
Date:   Wed 27 May 13:03

"We are all forgetting one thing.

This will likely be a success and you don't mend anything which works.Michael Stewart has argued that for weeks.

Dunfermline would have far more chance of being promoted and then staying in the top tier.

As for quoting a tired English Tory newspaper,words fail me.

I respectfully suggest you buy a Scottish Quality newspaper.Both "The Scotsman" or "The Herald" have incisive articles and analysis."

1, How will it be a success? Other than Michael Stewart or someone else on sportsound said so. The only thing wrong with the current league set up, imo, is the money distribution.
2, How would Dunfermline have more chance of staying up when other teams will have been there and have benefitted from the unfair money distribution, or will have received a parachute paymnet.
3, The Scotsman is an awful rag and the Herald isn't much better.

And your forgetting one thing, ALL this is being done to benefit Hearts. No one else.
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 Re: No league reconstruction ~ yet
Topic Originator: DBP  
Date:   Wed 27 May 13:10

So what are the parameters and KPIs for success?

Are there metrics which are measurable and if pass certain criteria mean it will stick, or will tv companies and the bigger clubs decide they would rather have 4 OF games again?

I don't really give a rats erse what Michael Stewart says, i prefer to tune into everybody's radio WIIFM (what's in it for me) and use that to determine motivation and how each team will act in the future... And please don't have the wool pulled over your eyes, if it's a temporary restructure, it will regress back...

So i say again, if this goes through then we're all going to watch the worlds slowest car crash - although the realisation of how we will regress back to current set up (once hearts and other teams are comfortably safe) will be fun at least

Post Edited (Wed 27 May 13:11)
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 Re: No league reconstruction ~ yet
Topic Originator: GJS93  
Date:   Wed 27 May 14:33

"I respectfully suggest you buy a Scottish Quality newspaper"

i don't buy any papers and "respectfully" ill pass on that suggestion.

details of the changes needed to the distribution model

https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/sport/football/scottish-premiership/5638350/premiership-hearts-spfl-reconstruction-plan-reality/



Post Edited (Wed 27 May 14:51)
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 Re: No league reconstruction ~ yet
Topic Originator: DA-go Par Adonis  
Date:   Wed 27 May 15:49

You're quite unique, Sliema.

Possibly the only poster I know that could 100% agree with someone and still manage to rub them up the wrong way.

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I love it when we don't sell Kevin Nisbet,
He's gonna score in every game 'til Christmas,
And every touch is goal la la la, it's goal la la la,
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 Re: No league reconstruction ~ yet
Topic Originator: Sliema Par  
Date:   Wed 27 May 16:18

That was not my intention and if I have inadvertently antagonised anyone,I unreservedly apologise.

I just felt that "The Herald" and "Scotsman" today both carry objective detail and analysis.

I am smiling at the prospect of multiple games played at one large stadium over a weekend, as that was a Maltese idea.
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 Re: No league reconstruction ~ yet
Topic Originator: Andrew283  
Date:   Wed 27 May 16:21

This split would in no way benefit most current championship and L1/L2 teams. You either have a perm reconstruction or Budge and the other members of the self preservation society can stick their heads back up their erses
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 Re: No league reconstruction ~ yet
Topic Originator: widtink  
Date:   Wed 27 May 16:23

When are we likely to get a decision on these ideas?



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 Re: No league reconstruction ~ yet
Topic Originator: Sliema Par  
Date:   Wed 27 May 16:24

BBC Radio Scotland believe it could be imminent.
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 Re: No league reconstruction ~ yet
Topic Originator: allparone  
Date:   Wed 27 May 17:01

No decision today. Separate meetings to be held with the teams in each league starting with the Premiership on Monday.
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 Re: No league reconstruction ~ yet
Topic Originator: Sliema Par  
Date:   Wed 27 May 17:10

King Kozma in a post at 1255pm may be nearer the truth than some would have thought.
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 Re: No league reconstruction ~ yet
Topic Originator: P  
Date:   Wed 27 May 18:00

The clubs below the top league should add an addendum to the proposal that in 2 years another reconstruction will be considered and subject to vote - see how the self preservation league like a bit of c*** teasing with no genuine intent behind it


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 Re: No league reconstruction ~ yet
Topic Originator: Buspasspar  
Date:   Wed 27 May 18:17

What a fekin cuffuffel to save a club who have been rank rotten this season
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 Re: No league reconstruction ~ yet
Topic Originator: BigJPar  
Date:   Wed 27 May 18:57

This surely has to fail. What's the point, apart from saving hearts?
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 Re: No league reconstruction ~ yet
Topic Originator: dafc-chris1  
Date:   Wed 27 May 19:28

This is an easy no
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 Re: No league reconstruction ~ yet
Topic Originator: jake89  
Date:   Wed 27 May 20:59

There was a club a few years back. They said the Premier League wouldn't survive without them as they were such a big club. Whatever happened to them?
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 Re: No league reconstruction ~ yet
Topic Originator: GJS93  
Date:   Thu 28 May 12:06

it might not even reach the stage of being voted on

https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/sport/football/5641198/hearts-ann-budge-league-reconstruction-vote/

"But SunSport understands the early signs are Budge is struggling to gain enough support across ANY of the leagues.
If SPFL feedback tells the Jambos chief her bid is doomed to fail, a formal resolution is unlikely to be put forward"
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 Re: No league reconstruction ~ yet
Topic Originator: M-PAR  
Date:   Thu 28 May 12:26

I just don’t understand why she is insisting on this being temporary. If it was a permanent change then I think a lot more clubs would back it.

COYP!
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 Re: No league reconstruction ~ yet
Topic Originator: P  
Date:   Thu 28 May 12:38

Quote:

M-PAR, Thu 28 May 12:26

I just don’t understand why she is insisting on this being temporary. If it was a permanent change then I think a lot more clubs would back it.


As a last throw of the dice by Budge it’s pretty hamfisted (and arrogant)


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 Re: No league reconstruction ~ yet
Topic Originator: DBP  
Date:   Thu 28 May 13:09

Quote:

M-PAR, Thu 28 May 12:26

I just don’t understand why she is insisting on this being temporary. If it was a permanent change then I think a lot more clubs would back it.


Because the bigger teams don't want this and as such it'll not be permanent - even if they try the line, let's test it for a couple off years and vote again afterwards

I know fans can often be gullible because of their loyalty and support, but surely they don't think we can't see this for what it really is!?!?
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 Re: No league reconstruction ~ yet
Topic Originator: jake89  
Date:   Thu 28 May 13:27

Perhaps the real question should be "Which clubs can survive without fans in the stadium" (assuming this is the proposal). For clubs like us this would be a big issue.
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 Re: No league reconstruction ~ yet
Topic Originator: eastendalloapar  
Date:   Thu 28 May 13:28

Surely as Hearts are due to be relegated, with Dundee Utd taking their place. She should stop having this plan to save her team. As we do not know what is going to happen next season and which teams will fail before and during the season. Why do we not have 2 leagues. That way if a team closes down, the leagues using a home and away once will be carry on. Why do I say this, well imagine a league with 10 at the and 3 drop out. Whereas a league with 20 or 22 and 3 or 4 drop out there will still be enough teams to play out the season. Are you reading this Budge, your beloved Hearts would be saved from relegation.

matt forsyth
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 Re: No league reconstruction ~ yet
Topic Originator: DBP  
Date:   Thu 28 May 13:35

Quote:

jake89, Thu 28 May 13:27

Perhaps the real question should be "Which clubs can survive without fans in the stadium" (assuming this is the proposal). For clubs like us this would be a big issue.


Exactly, all energy from everyone should be focused on that and only that.

how will we get football to and running again? what will match days look like? how will clubs survive if its 2021 before we can have crowds again? What other revenue streams are there? How will lower division clubs afford to film and steam games? What can tv broadcasters do? Etc etc

Every moment wasted on budges plan is potentially another nail in the coffin for everyone.
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 Re: No league reconstruction ~ yet
Topic Originator: veteraneastender  
Date:   Thu 28 May 13:41

If (God forbid) any team(s) were to go under during the league campaign then there is a problem with how to adjust points, goals for and against etc. for the other clubs.

Declaring all previous results null and void could have an effect on league placings.

If a club were to fail near the end of the season the above could alter relegation places.

Imagine if Hearts were affected ..............................................

"Perhaps the real question should be "Which clubs can survive without fans in the stadium" (assuming this is the proposal).

That is the real issue, rather than the repositioning of the Titanic deckchairs exercise which is proposed.
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 Re: No league reconstruction ~ yet
Topic Originator: Lambo1885  
Date:   Thu 28 May 13:46

"Perhaps the real question should be "Which clubs can survive without fans in the stadium" (assuming this is the proposal). For clubs like us this would be a big issue."

Outwith Celtic, is there one?
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 Re: No league reconstruction ~ yet
Topic Originator: Lambo1885  
Date:   Thu 28 May 13:49

"Declaring all previous results null and void could have an effect on league placings.

If a club were to fail near the end of the season the above could alter relegation places."

Why would you need to do that? The league is finished.
Another thought tho, if a premier team did go bust would ICT be promoted and Hearts still relegated? That was the precedent set in 2012 with Dundee?
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 Re: No league reconstruction ~ yet
Topic Originator: veteraneastender  
Date:   Thu 28 May 13:56

The scenario above was based on a club folding during the season - the league is not finished at that juncture.
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 Re: No league reconstruction ~ yet
Topic Originator: DA-go Par Adonis  
Date:   Thu 28 May 14:25

"In short, the Premiership needs Hearts more than the Championship does. The Championship needs Partick Thistle more than the lower Leagues do.

“Let’s focus on dealing with the problem of saving Scottish Football from a position, which plays to our strengths and minimizes our weaknesses."


Somebody needs to tell Budge to stop talking out loud...

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I love it when we don't sell Kevin Nisbet,
He's gonna score in every game 'til Christmas,
And every touch is goal la la la, it's goal la la la,
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 Re: No league reconstruction ~ yet
Topic Originator: parathletic  
Date:   Thu 28 May 14:29

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/52836158


Hearts turn down takeover bid
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 Re: No league reconstruction ~ yet
Topic Originator: da_no_1  
Date:   Thu 28 May 14:31

Quote:

Lambo1885, Thu 28 May 13:46

"Perhaps the real question should be "Which clubs can survive without fans in the stadium" (assuming this is the proposal). For clubs like us this would be a big issue."

Outwith Celtic, is there one?


I'd think a club that regularly pays squad players 10k a week would need fans in their stadium?

"Some days will stay a 1000 years, some pass like the flash of a spark"
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 Re: No league reconstruction ~ yet
Topic Originator: Lambo1885  
Date:   Thu 28 May 15:15

"The scenario above was based on a club folding during the season - the league is not finished at that juncture."

Apologies, misread that.
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 Re: No league reconstruction ~ yet
Topic Originator: veteraneastender  
Date:   Thu 28 May 17:16

No worries.

The uncertain future brings the survival of clubs into focus.

Let's hope all survive.
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 Re: No league reconstruction ~ yet
Topic Originator: GJS93  
Date:   Thu 28 May 19:58

https://twitter.com/ScotlandSky/status/1266047895809282048

wow!
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 Re: No league reconstruction ~ yet
Topic Originator: BigJPar  
Date:   Thu 28 May 21:04

Budge seems to be losing the plot.
Maybe needs to take a step back before she has a melt down.
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 Re: No league reconstruction ~ yet
Topic Originator: P  
Date:   Thu 28 May 21:08

Quote:

BigJPar, Thu 28 May 21:04

Budge seems to be losing the plot.
Maybe needs to take a step back before she has a melt down.


Going by that video her puss already melted


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 Re: No league reconstruction ~ yet
Topic Originator: jake89  
Date:   Thu 28 May 23:46

Budge never had it in the first place. Interesting that another American is interested in investing in a Scottish team. Seems a bizarre investment.

For teams surviving without fans in the stadium - fair few clubs seem to do alright despite having very small crowds.
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 Re: No league reconstruction ~ yet
Topic Originator: DunfyDave  
Date:   Fri 29 May 10:05

The use of the word "temporary" in historic negotiations on league reconstruction tells you that they are NOT serious about the negotiations on league reconstruction.

It is a clear red flag that they are pre-warning of its imminent failure sometime in the future but are still planning to go through with it.

They could easily have left the word "temporary" out of the wording altogether and still hatch their evil plans in two years and very little could be done to stop them.

Scottish football needs a revolution in thought and planning and the word "temporary" is weak.

DunfyDave
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 Re: No league reconstruction ~ yet
Topic Originator: GJS93  
Date:   Fri 29 May 11:43

how things change....

April 9th
"ANN BUDGE admits Hearts will just have to accept it if fellow SPFL clubs decide to relegate them"
"“If everything is talked about and that is what the community of football clubs believe is right, I’m not going to fight it to the death.
“If we have to deal with relegation we will deal with relegation"

May 29th
"But Ann Budge has warned she’s ready to KEEP Scottish football in lockdown if Hearts end up in the Championship"
“I am DESPERATE for a decision. As if there weren’t enough uncertainties about.
“Some people will say, ‘Just give up then’. But that takes us full circle to me saying, ‘I’m not giving up because this is wrong’.
“If it unfortunately becomes clear we will be starting the season in the Championship I don’t have any choice but to go ahead with a legal battle.”

https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/sport/football/5645259/hearts-chief-budge-scottish-football-lockdown/
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 Re: No league reconstruction ~ yet
Topic Originator: eastendalloapar  
Date:   Fri 29 May 12:12

Can the rest of the league not vote to expel Hearts. She seems to be a very bitter woman that cannot understand that her team finished bottom of the league. Why not make a league of 1. Especially for Hearts.

matt forsyth
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 Re: No league reconstruction ~ yet
Topic Originator: widtink  
Date:   Fri 29 May 12:22

So not only will they win the league... But they'll also be relegated....
I like it... It's brilliant 😏



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 Re: No league reconstruction ~ yet
Topic Originator: LochgellyAlbert  
Date:   Fri 29 May 13:22

Maybe staying in the premier is part of the sell on clause?
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 Re: No league reconstruction ~ yet
Topic Originator: veteraneastender  
Date:   Fri 29 May 13:41

I doubt if the SPFL would expel the best supported club outside the Glasgow duo - they haven't quite reached the level ........ yet.

That's the real reason Hearts might have an audience, if it were Hamilton (for example) this debate would never have gone beyond the preliminary round.
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 Re: No league reconstruction ~ yet
Topic Originator: jake89  
Date:   Fri 29 May 16:27

Is it really a case of clubs deciding to expel them? Clubs are deciding on a solution that affects all Scottish teams. Ann Budge needs to get over herself and realise it's not all about Hearts.
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