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Topic Originator: OzPar
Date: Sun 10 May 04:50
Something that has been exercising my mind recently has been the potential capacity of East End Park once the current restrictions are eased.
Despite the upbeat noises coming from various governments, the full-scale return of matches with fans huddled together in stands like we are used to, is possibly as much as two years away. And even then, this will likely rely on the development of a vaccine and full vaccination of the public before implementation.
Until that time, the best we might hope for is social distancing in stadiums with each seat next to, behind, and in front of us, vacant.
I have been trying to work out how this would affect our capacity and have drawn on paper various blocks of boxes with ‘X’ marking an occupied seat and spaces to allow for these social distancing rules.
Before I started, I thought it would be a relatively straightforward exercise – and it would be, were it not for the need to retain space around each seat. If fans were to sit in the seats diagonally immediately behind and in front of your seat, then fine, it is an easy calculation and the impact would not be too damaging for most Scottish sides outside the Old Firm.
However, when you apply an empty seat diagonally behind as well as in front, the equation becomes quite complicated and you begin to realise that this is going to dramatically reduce the capacity of football stadiums.
To appreciate the scale of the problem, you need to draw a series of 9 boxes horizontally and 9 vertically – 81 boxes (seats) in total. Try this for yourself…
In the centre box, you mark an ‘X’; that is you.
You then mark an ‘X’ in each box allowing for an empty seat in all directions between you and the next person.
As you go through this exercise, you quickly realise that the pattern that emerges shows regular rows of empty seats both vertically and horizontally.
The net result is that of the 81 boxes, only 24 are occupied, which is just a smidgeon short of 30%.
The current capacity of East End Park is 11,480, therefore using the formula above, the stadium would be full with about 3,400 fans.
That is not far off our season ticket holder numbers.
Have I done my sums correctly? Am I missing something?
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Topic Originator: widtink
Date: Sun 10 May 05:05
Gov guidelines are 2 meters so I'd say you would need a gap of 2 seats in all directions around you... Maybe even 3... Not sure... But its definitely more than one.
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Topic Originator: AdamAntsParsStripe
Date: Sun 10 May 05:31
An added factor is that families who live in the same household could, and should be able to sit together so potentially increasing the capacity?
If you only turn up to moan then do it elsewhere
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Topic Originator: widtink
Date: Sun 10 May 05:49
Good point
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Topic Originator: P
Date: Sun 10 May 10:03
What happens if someone wants out for loo, pie, leaving early etc does everyone in the row need to move out?
Edit - in fact you would still brush past someone in the row in front or behind as you walk along
Post Edited (Sun 10 May 10:04)
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Topic Originator: AdamAntsParsStripe
Date: Sun 10 May 10:16
Quote:
P, Sun 10 May 10:03
What happens if someone wants out for loo, pie, leaving early etc does everyone in the row need to move out?
Edit - in fact you would still brush past someone in the row in front or behind as you walk along
Another good point.
If you only turn up to moan then do it elsewhere
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Topic Originator: Thaipar
Date: Sun 10 May 10:19
Quote:
AdamAntsParsStripe, Sun 10 May 10:16
Quote:
P, Sun 10 May 10:03
What happens if someone wants out for loo, pie, leaving early etc does everyone in the row need to move out?
Edit - in fact you would still brush past someone in the row in front or behind as you walk along
Another good point.
Social distancing isn't that strict. You are allowed to pass each other.
Please don't book me Admin, it will ruin my life.
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Topic Originator: neils
Date: Sun 10 May 12:04
It would need fans to turn up in stages for about two hours before kick off, likewise would take ages after the game.
I think not until the situation is safer we won't be playing....
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Topic Originator: jake89
Date: Sun 10 May 12:47
Is there still a TV deal for the lower leagues? If not, perhaps an opportunity to set up a TV only league for at least half the season. Pay per game or half-season ticket.
It'll be rubbish without people in the stands but I don't see how it's feasible to have a few thousand people keeping their distance coming in and out of the stadium.
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Topic Originator: DA-go Par Adonis
Date: Sun 10 May 12:49
I guess it will be gradual re the guidance in crowds gathering. Probably start with a handful, building up the way. Once it hits 500, they could potentially look to release a tranche of season tickets and let them in.
Could be a massive scramble mind you. which they might look to avoid.
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I love it when we don't sell Kevin Nisbet,
He's gonna score in every game 'til Christmas,
And every touch is goal la la la, it's goal la la la,
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Topic Originator: yorkiepar
Date: Sun 10 May 13:15
IMHO there are only two likely scenarios:
Either, we have to rethink the whole infrastructure around football matches and many, many other social activities to allow social distancing which is, frankly, totally impractical.
Or, we just have to accept that viruses such as Covid-19 are now likely to be part of our day-to-day lives and just get on with it, whilst simultaneously continuing to research antidotes to this and whichever virus (inevitably) follows.
If we go back a couple of hundred years people lived with scarlet fever, whooping cough, tuberculosis, diphtheria and other potential killers and just got on with it. There was / is no long-term alternative.
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Topic Originator: Thaipar
Date: Sun 10 May 13:23
I think it's a tad more serious than that. A super spreader has the potential to kill hundreds of people. Imagine that at a football match the potential to spread cóvid around to 400 people in his/her immediate vicinity by coughing, sneezing, shaking people's hand in a pub, stadium etc the consequences would be massive.
Please don't book me Admin, it will ruin my life.
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Topic Originator: jake89
Date: Sun 10 May 13:33
Until there's a vaccine (expected by the end of this year) I think it'll be a case of make do.
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Topic Originator: neils
Date: Sun 10 May 13:42
Yes, we just have to see day by day.
Probably, we will just have learn to live alongside it as with other dangers, that conversation will be had anyway.
If the over 75s have to be isolated can we have another Brexit vote?
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Topic Originator: moviescot
Date: Sun 10 May 14:40
Now if football grounds still had terraces it would be much easier to socially distance. This is where seating is a bad idea.
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Topic Originator: Ronaldo
Date: Sun 10 May 14:55
Interesting points, Yorkie. A couple of months after we won the Cup in '68, Britain succumbed to the Hong Kong flu virus, which claimed around 30,000 lives in the UK.
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Topic Originator: Raymie the Legend
Date: Sun 10 May 15:09
How would you feel if the person sat closest to you started coughing and spluttering? It could be just the common cold?
Would you leave or ask him/her to leave ?
It's bloody tough being a legend
Ron Atkinson - 1983
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Topic Originator: moviescot
Date: Sun 10 May 22:43
Quote:
Raymie the Legend, Sun 10 May 15:09
How would you feel if the person sat closest to you started coughing and spluttering? It could be just the common cold?
Would you leave or ask him/her to leave ?
If you were on a terrace you would just move over.
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Topic Originator: veteraneastender
Date: Mon 11 May 09:13
"It would need fans to turn up in stages for about two hours before kick off, likewise would take ages after the game.
I think not until the situation is safer we won't be playing...."
The access / exit of EEP scenario is just one of the insurmountable issues I reckon.
Potentially queuing for 2 hours to watch a game that last 90 minutes - would be a huge disincentive to attending, as is lack of hospitality and catering.
Movement within the stadium throws up more problems - some of the toilets are small spaces where social distancing would be near impossible to manage.
Then there's potential choke points at stair wells and on stairways.
There's no easy solution.
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Topic Originator: eastendalloapar
Date: Mon 11 May 10:57
We could play like that in our stadium providing there are no away fans. It would be more difficult for teams with little or no seating Arbroath being one.
matt forsyth
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Topic Originator: DA-go Par Adonis
Date: Mon 11 May 11:39
"There's no easy solution"
We should probably just throw the towel in then.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I love it when we don't sell Kevin Nisbet,
He's gonna score in every game 'til Christmas,
And every touch is goal la la la, it's goal la la la,
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Topic Originator: neils
Date: Mon 11 May 12:00
Nothing wrong with throwing ideas into the ring though.
Can't see any solution, same for pubs- just doesn't seem any way, unless there is some kind of 'passport' which throws up all sorts of horrors in itself.
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Topic Originator: DA-go Par Adonis
Date: Mon 11 May 12:02
Opening on a severely restricted capacity and selling season tickets gradually to cover the quota?
I can imagine the carnage on here though if we were allowed 500 in the stadium and 2,000 were on the phone/online trying to bag a ticket. Maybe they should raffle some and auction some?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I love it when we don't sell Kevin Nisbet,
He's gonna score in every game 'til Christmas,
And every touch is goal la la la, it's goal la la la,
Post Edited (Mon 11 May 12:12)
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Topic Originator: 1970par
Date: Mon 11 May 12:22
I outlined how entry and exit could work on another thread
You buy your ticket in advance and your arrival time, entry gate and seat number are large printed on it. No real need to have a turnstile just open the big gates and have the tickets checked at arms length. If the arrival times are adhered to then you need no more than 30 mins to get everybody in bearing in mind you are using all gates and the whole stadium. Exit would be staggered with those who were asked to enter first being allowed to exit first
The toilets are well enough spread around the stadium that the need for them to be overcrowded is lessened, consider that there won’t be hospitality bars open so the use of the toilets will be considerably lessened. Wedge the toilet doors open and provide plenty soap and water, if required the gate stewards can monitor access to the facilities
There are solutions if you look hard enough
Post Edited (Mon 11 May 12:38)
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Topic Originator: neils
Date: Mon 11 May 12:42
That would take thirty minutes? What about after the game ( if it is 0-0 in pouring rain) will people really leave according to the guidelines?
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Topic Originator: veteraneastender
Date: Mon 11 May 12:53
"We should probably just throw the towel in then."
I'd like to see the Risk Assessment paperwork for re-opening EEP based on the above suggestions.
I doubt it would get past the first reading in respect of the safety certificate being issued.
There is just no way to get around the fundemental social distancing restrictions as things stand.
That's the reality.
Other opinions will differ.
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Topic Originator: widtink
Date: Mon 11 May 13:02
You can't evacuate a stadium while still following social distancing rules so it's a non starter.
Every stadium (I would imagine) needs an evacuation plan... Or am I wrong?
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Topic Originator: neils
Date: Mon 11 May 13:08
I agree veteran, I can't see any way apart from crowds as ' normal' anything else would be seen as dangerous, if not financially ruinous.
Same for airlines, they need to operate as a skeleton for the next couple years at least, pubs? Who would go?
I expect for everything else we will gradually go back ( what is left) and learn to live alongside it.
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Topic Originator: OzPar
Date: Mon 11 May 13:09
<<An added factor is that families who live in the same household could, and should be able to sit together so potentially increasing the capacity?>>
Yes AAPS, in principle I would be all for your idea.
But then, when you think about it, you'll conclude that it just can't be done. For if you were to allow a family of three or four to sit together in a row, it would require everyone else in the stand to move to a new seat to provide them with an empty seat around them in all directions. The result... chaos.
The only way any system such as this could work is if it was rigidly adhered to. I think each seat that can be occupied will be marked in some way to identify it.
And if you think EEP stewards are officious, heartless scoundrels now, just wait till they get the chance to police this!!!
:)
<<Gov guidelines are 2 meters so I'd say you would need a gap of 2 seats in all directions around you... Maybe even 3... Not sure... But its definitely more than one.>>
Widtink, anything more than a gap of one seat would almost certainly be a waste of time. I haven't done the same exercise for a gap of two seats or more, but the crowd numbers would be so low as to make it utterly uneconomic and impractical.
Surely, a bit of pragmatism is required here both by the authorities and the fans.
You are in the open air and two to three feet from your neighbour. Watching the game would actually be far more comfortable and you would still be able to talk to those around you.
If there is any benefit from this, it would be to see all the stands at EEP occupied for most games, but it is unlikely that there would be any room for more than a few, if any, away supporters.
Of course, the other aspect of this to consider is that you might be forced to wear a mask...
Consider the consequences of that; the muffled crowd noise and the high likelihood of someone suffocating as they swallow their mask when we score...
:)
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Topic Originator: widtink
Date: Mon 11 May 13:36
Pragmatism? .... We're trying to save lives here... Football isn't really that important that we should be risking lives in order to play the game ... Is it? 🤔
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Topic Originator: 1970par
Date: Mon 11 May 13:44
The evacuation issue was discussed before and surely in the event of an emergency the evacuation procedure would be the same as normal as it would take priority over social distancing
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Topic Originator: eastendalloapar
Date: Mon 11 May 13:46
We could wear face masks, that way we could pass each other without any problems. Visors could be worn but very few probably would want to pay for one.
matt forsyth
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Topic Originator: veteraneastender
Date: Mon 11 May 13:49
"I agree veteran, I can't see any way apart from crowds as ' normal' anything else would be seen as dangerous, if not financially ruinous."
There are other aspects to add into the mix.
Just one example - would supporters want to risk the potential of cross contamination by going to a ground and then possibly taking it back home to their nearest and dearest ?
I wouldn't consider putting 'er indoors into that situation, and I expect I would not be alone in that mindset.
Then there's fans with children in the family group - would you want to compromise their health ?
I'm as depressed as the rest of us missing our regular fix of fitba' - but there are far more important issues to address - the country is in its biggest peacetime crisis and the NHS is on a war footing having suffered fatalities among its own ranks.
We'll just need to grin and bare it sadly.
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Topic Originator: OzPar
Date: Mon 11 May 13:59
<<Pragmatism? .... We're trying to save lives here... Football isn't really that important that we should be risking lives in order to play the game ... Is it? 🤔>>
Yes, pragmatism.
There comes a point where we all have to come to terms with how we want to live our lives going forward. Risk mitigation, not risk avoidance. You can't completely avoid risk.
We are not talking about tomorrow; we are talking about some months from now. But we can't permanently live in a bubble where everything around us is a threat.
Some countries already are playing matches in empty stadiums. The next stage is 500 people max; the stage after that is social distancing in the whole stadium, which is what this thread is all about.
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Topic Originator: twin par
Date: Mon 11 May 15:04
I understand people looking for solutions, and there are some good ideas. But ,I'm sorry, it ain't going to happen, it's all too risky. People wouldn't want the hassle. I prefer when this all dies down,and we can go back to normal, and I know,that could take ages.I only want to watch a match, with ,good crowd,and an atmosphere ,not a stadium,with a covid risk, watching.
Post Edited (Mon 11 May 22:54)
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Topic Originator: DA-go Par Adonis
Date: Mon 11 May 16:02
"People wouldn't want the hassle."
Some people won't want the hassle. Some will sacrifice that to see the game. It might drive crowds down (which will be enforced anyway) and make it manageable.
I think it's likely to be a while away but I don't foresee the situation where football in Scotland only begins as and when we're given carte blanche to do whatever we want again.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I love it when we don't sell Kevin Nisbet,
He's gonna score in every game 'til Christmas,
And every touch is goal la la la, it's goal la la la,
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Topic Originator: desparado
Date: Mon 11 May 22:38
Re: Could EEP capacity be reduced to 3,400?
Posted from the Android app Topic Originator: widtink like | nolike
Date: Mon 11 May 13:02
You can't evacuate a stadium while still following social distancing rules so it's a non starter.
Every stadium (I would imagine) needs an evacuation plan... Or am I wrong?
You can analyse things to the nth degree.
If there was a real emergency that required the stadium to be evacuated ( like a fire in the main stand ) the last thing I would be worried about would be catching a virus....on my way out in an orderly fashion.
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Topic Originator: widtink
Date: Mon 11 May 22:48
Tell that to H&s.... These things are required... That's all I'm saying.
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Topic Originator: desparado
Date: Mon 11 May 23:00
I agree, but as 1970par says there are solutions....to everything.....if you look hard enough.
If this virus is still around in a few months time and no vaccine has been found we will have to return to normal, there is no other option. ( providing the transmission rate is 0.5 for example )
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Topic Originator: neils
Date: Mon 11 May 23:08
Yes that will happen, we will just have to suck it and see.
Financially, and employment wise this has been carnage, with damage taking years to repair, but as much that can continue must- and this includes football clubs.
We will have to live alongside it. Life goes on.
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Topic Originator: Row_ZZ
Date: Tue 12 May 15:00
I have no idea how they can implement a safe social distancing measure in stadiums. There is most certainly no way, as highlighted in good points above.
So, what happens? There is absolutely no way we can keep going the way we are until the population is vaccinated, which could potentially take several years.
Corona viruses are notoriously difficult to find a vaccine for, a la the common cold. Our best hope is to get the rate of infections down to a managable level, implement as much social distancing as humanly possible and hope people stick to taking the advice from the government. There is no way thy can stop humans being humans for much longer.
I Know There's Gonna Be (Good Times)
Post Edited (Tue 12 May 15:01)
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