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 Player update
Topic Originator: king lad  
Date:   Fri 22 May 13:50

17 players released from the club at the end of their contracts. Notably; Ashcroft, Devine, Paton, Morrison, Ryan, Beadling, Scully, Thomson and Smith. The rest being youngsters. A really sad day for these guys, wish them all the best
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: Row_ZZ  
Date:   Fri 22 May 13:53

A very sad day, but the club cannot offer anything when there is so much uncertainty.

I Know There's Gonna Be (Good Times)
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: parsloyal98  
Date:   Fri 22 May 13:53

Must say I’m only really bothered about Ashcroft and Paton. Perhaps when there’s more certainty the club offer them to return

We love Dunfermline We do!
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: par_33  
Date:   Fri 22 May 13:59

Ashcroft will end up at Tannadice. Big loss of another team decides to recruit his services.
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: king lad  
Date:   Fri 22 May 13:59

I imagine that when we return to some form of normalcy we could come back to some of the guys we wanted to keep should they not have found new jobs in that time and offer them some sort of deal. But that won't be for some time. Wasn't Comrie originally on a 1 year deal with the option for another year, does that mean we've exercised that option in his contract?
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: Cleveland12  
Date:   Fri 22 May 14:01

Felt sick reading it. We’ll just be the first of many to do this


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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: the saline hill puma  
Date:   Fri 22 May 14:03

I don't see why they can't offer rolling monthly contracts and continue the furlough of the players on the basis they get the 80% covered by the government

Post Edited (Fri 22 May 14:04)
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: GJS93  
Date:   Fri 22 May 14:03

presume that is the case for Comrie king lad.

because they would still need to pay something puma, they will need as much money as they can for the players under contract never mind paying for more right now.



Post Edited (Fri 22 May 14:05)
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: Connor560  
Date:   Fri 22 May 14:04

Would have kept Ashcroft, Beadling, Thomson and Devine who came on to a game towards the end.

C'mon Ye Pars!
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: wee eck  
Date:   Fri 22 May 14:10

I reckon that leaves us with a first-team squad of 10 :-

Gill Comrie Martin Murray Lang Edwards Turner Dow Nisbet McGill
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: Stanza  
Date:   Fri 22 May 14:12

A very sad day for everyone involved.
All the very best to each one of these young men, that they can find some way of continuing their careers.

_________________

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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: thenatural  
Date:   Fri 22 May 14:14

This is really sad and must be hellish for the players released but the club statement points out that this is about safeguarding the very existence of the club. It must have been terrible to have to make this decision.
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: par_33  
Date:   Fri 22 May 14:17

A very sad day.

But with players n staff furloughed, 20k a month coming in with the Centenary Lifeline plus the 50k the fans have raised, wheres this money going?

Surely the manager woulda been possibly asked which players he'd want to keep, Ashcroft n Paton for example, or maybe they weren't in the plans for next season..
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: buffy  
Date:   Fri 22 May 14:17

☹️

buffysbuns.wordpress.com
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: The Toun Clock  
Date:   Fri 22 May 14:20

Not great news but I can't help think that the way it's been reported is quite dramatic. We've released 17 players but how many would actually have been offered a new deal, 2/3?
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: wee eck  
Date:   Fri 22 May 14:24

Emotionally it's a very difficult decision but financially it's pretty straightforward. In the present circumstances, how could a director justify the club spending money it has no legal obligation to?
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: hudza  
Date:   Fri 22 May 14:24

Would like to keep Ashcroft, not bothered about the rest. Think we could potentially even get better than him as well.
It’s a shame but doubt much of them would have been kept anyway, maybe Ashy, Paton, Thomson is about it
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: JamesAndrew74  
Date:   Fri 22 May 14:26

Quote:

par_33, Fri 22 May 14:17

A very sad day.

But with players n staff furloughed, 20k a month coming in with the Centenary Lifeline plus the 50k the fans have raised, wheres this money going?

Surely the manager woulda been possibly asked which players he'd want to keep, Ashcroft n Paton for example, or maybe they weren't in the plans for next season..


I would presume overheads, insurance, contract hire vehicles, fixed costs, the 20% uplift on the furlough rebate, stadium maintenance (grass cutting), PAYE, NIC, Pensions. All adds up.
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: Pars Athletic  
Date:   Fri 22 May 14:30

I know the club say it can't afford new deals, but we should be trying to offer Kevin Nisbet a years extension. With the way things are going we will be lucky to get a derisory offer for him and worse he could sign a pre contract with somone at Christmas and we get hehaw for him
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: Perkins  
Date:   Fri 22 May 14:31

"Topic Originator: GJS93 |
Date: Fri 22 May 14:03

because they would still need to pay something puma"

Not an expert on Furlough but I think the club could just pay the players the 80% and be cost neutral on their wages. Perhaps some indirect costs of their employment I'm not considering. Furlough only applies to people hired before the end of Feb so perhaps it could be deemed not to be continuous employment.
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: par_33  
Date:   Fri 22 May 14:33

Agreed with the statement above. So then a club would have to offer a decent amount to recruit him. 400k in January? I fear if Hibs or Dundee Utd were to offer 250k atm, we would take it.



Post Edited (Fri 22 May 16:07)
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: neils  
Date:   Fri 22 May 14:37

I would assume Nisbet would be out of his mind to sign an extension.

Terrible for these players, even though it would have been unlikely we would have re-signed any more than 2 or 3, it means an uncertain future for them, many will not play again full time.

All clubs will be releasing identical statements anyway.
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: TAFKA_Super_Petrie  
Date:   Fri 22 May 14:42

Bit of a sensationalist headline and over dramatic to be honest.

You get lots of released players every year and one or two always raise a few eyebrows.

If the current situation had not arose then that list wouldn't out of the ordinary in my opinion with the exception of Ashcroft & Thomson and, possibly Paton at a push.

Worrying times for all affected though, hope they get something sorted ASAP for future.

---------------------------------------------------------------


"People always talk about Ronaldinho and magic, but I didn't see him today. I saw Henrik Larsson; that's where the magic was."


Post Edited (Fri 22 May 14:43)
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: par_33  
Date:   Fri 22 May 14:45

I woulda thought Greg would of wanted to keep the majority of his 20s, after all they won't be on big wages, apprentice contracts. Peanuts.
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: GJS93  
Date:   Fri 22 May 15:00

"Emotionally it's a very difficult decision but financially it's pretty straightforward"

correct.

another point to consider is maybe a couple of the guys were not even on the furlough scheme, the statement at the time said the majority of players were, not all of them.

when a set timescale for a return to football is put in place then we can sort out deals for some of these guys if they are still available. if a club wants to sign and pay them now then good luck to them.
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: chewie  
Date:   Fri 22 May 15:00

Always sad to see good players leave. As mentioned above, why can't the club furlough them? It is a cost neutral exercise, the club are not obliged to make up the extra 20% of their wages - every penny of the 80% salary is claimed back in the scheme until end of July. Cash flow would be the only reason not to do this, surely there is a way round that to prevent these guys from earning nothing with no prospect of another club?
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: Athletico  
Date:   Fri 22 May 15:18

Scotland sweetheart Amy Macdonald isn't very happy with us.
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: GEW35  
Date:   Fri 22 May 15:18

Quote:

chewie, Fri 22 May 15:00

Always sad to see good players leave. As mentioned above, why can't the club furlough them? It is a cost neutral exercise, the club are not obliged to make up the extra 20% of their wages - every penny of the 80% salary is claimed back in the scheme until end of July. Cash flow would be the only reason not to do this, surely there is a way round that to prevent these guys from earning nothing with no prospect of another club?


Worth noting that, even with employees furloughed at 80% of their salary, the club still have to make monthly PAYE & NIC payments to HMRC.
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: GG Riva  
Date:   Fri 22 May 15:19

It is a sad day, we fans can get emotionally attached to the players who wear the Pars jerseys, but it is 100% the correct financial decision. Many of us would have been criticising the BoD if this had not been done, given the uncertain, short term future facing the game.

I'm sure that if the club was significantly in the black, some of the out of contract players would have been offered new deals.



Not your average Sunday League player.
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: par_33  
Date:   Fri 22 May 15:20

Amy Macdonald has got a point tbf.
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: cfad  
Date:   Fri 22 May 15:23

Really sad, these are boys with families, however the long term future of our club must come first
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: Perkins  
Date:   Fri 22 May 15:34

"Topic Originator: GEW35
Date: Fri 22 May 15:18

Worth noting that, even with employees furloughed at 80% of their salary, the club still have to make monthly PAYE & NIC payments to HMRC."


The club still have to make the monthly PAYE payment HMRC so there is the administrative burden but the grant covers 80% of the gross salary (up to the allowed limit) plus the employer's NI and minimum pension contribution so it is cost neutral for employers who are not topping it up
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: Athletico  
Date:   Fri 22 May 15:34

First instinct was it was necessary, but after further reading into the furlough scheme, this looks to be a really shocking way to handle it. Several clubs, some arguably in similar or worse financial state than us have simply extended the contracts for a month, Im not believing we couldn't do so as well.

When I contributed to the Pars fund, I did so on the basis that it was going to help keep the club going, which included the funds going towards the wages of our players and staff.



Post Edited (Fri 22 May 15:36)
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: Thursopar  
Date:   Fri 22 May 15:46

Is it not the case that the furlough scheme is in arrears, ie the club has to pay all wages etc before applying for re-imbursement through the furlough scheme. We as supporters of the club have to trust the board are doing everything necessary to keep the club alive.

As for the players, with the exception of a few players, most would have been released at the end of season. Further, perhaps some of these players have already given management their intention NOT to sign a new contract?
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: obiwanyouknowme  
Date:   Fri 22 May 15:51

This is a little disappointing but expected.

Hopefully when things get back to normal we will be able to approach some of the guys we would potentially have kept if they haven't been snapped up already.

Also some of these guys may not have been in the plans for next season, some of this will be what happens every year and some will be COVID related.

Only really 5 notable players who were in the squad playing regularly, going forward no sure there will be many clubs outside the Prem that can offer more than us. Hearts and Dundee only clubs i can think of.

From the list I would've

Kept
Lee Ashcroft, Tom Beadling, Danny Devine, Paul Paton.

Unsure
Joe Thomson - Never been the same since injury.

Released
Were on loan last year (4)Ryan Scully, Andy Ryan, Callum Smith, Stuart Morrison,

Youths (8) - Gregor Jordan, Scott Cusick, Cammy Graham, Lewis Sawers,
Josh Robertson, Lewis Crosbie, Craig Burt and Paul Brown.
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: GEW35  
Date:   Fri 22 May 15:52

Quote:

Perkins, Fri 22 May 15:34

"Topic Originator: GEW35
Date: Fri 22 May 15:18

Worth noting that, even with employees furloughed at 80% of their salary, the club still have to make monthly PAYE & NIC payments to HMRC."


The club still have to make the monthly PAYE payment HMRC so there is the administrative burden but the grant covers 80% of the gross salary (up to the allowed limit) plus the employer's NI and minimum pension contribution so it is cost neutral for employers who are not topping it up


Thank you for correction and clarification Perkins, I misread the guidelines on the government website.
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: veteraneastender  
Date:   Fri 22 May 15:58

Tragic day for all these players, the sad here and now reality of the financial crisis facing all of Scottish football.

"I would assume Nisbet would be out of his mind to sign an extension."

Correct.
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: AB Loyal  
Date:   Fri 22 May 16:11

One of the 17 definitely turned down a new deal.

The Prophet - 12/07/18, 13/06/19

https://uk.gofundme.com/f/save-the-bronze-bar
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: wetherby  
Date:   Fri 22 May 16:18

A sad day, particularly for those players with families mortgages and rent to find.A thank you to them does not seem adequate.Ashcroft's goal will stick in the mind for years to come for all those who saw it.Paton looked to be a true leader on the park that we had been missing for a few years.
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: obiwanyouknowme  
Date:   Fri 22 May 16:35

If one player turned down a new deal could only be imo Lee Ashcroft
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: Paralex  
Date:   Fri 22 May 16:44

At first glance I thought the thread title was "Prayer update" and had a sudden vision of the management team huddled together in prayer for divine guidance in attracting and signing new players. The thought was transitory but always an option.
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: ParsDan03  
Date:   Fri 22 May 16:54

Absolutely gutted about Devine and Ashcroft, also sad to see others go but can’t say it wasn’t expected.
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: PARadise  
Date:   Fri 22 May 17:16

I failed national 5 business and even I know that offering people money when you don’t have any money is mental
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: red-star-par  
Date:   Fri 22 May 17:41

I did think they would have been able to offer them short term deals, and keep them furloughed. So I am a wee bit disappointed, however I am sure that there must be other financial implications that I haven't considered. Sad day for those lads that have did their best for us. Amy MacDonald is ragin' though, which Footballer is she seeing these days, must be one of the 17
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: wee eck  
Date:   Fri 22 May 18:03

Amy Macdonald's married to Richard Foster of Ross County. She's a 'Gers fan I think.
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: eastendalloapar  
Date:   Fri 22 May 18:07

We are releasing players however most clubs will be doing the same. It will be very hard for players to find clubs. I know that although it might be a while before we get to see them play, I for one would have been happy to have bought my season ticket now. Probably many more would have done the same but we've never been given that option.

matt forsyth
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: parathletic  
Date:   Fri 22 May 18:37

I read today that it could cost clubs between 3 and 5k per club per week for Covid testing. Raith chairman quoted as saying it's possible that the Championship will start in January and be an 18 game season.Struggle to see how many clubs would survive if that transpires.


Best of luck to those departing in finding clubs.
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: da_no_1  
Date:   Fri 22 May 19:01

None of us know how this decision has been reached for definite.

Maybe some of the players were offered short term deals til the end of the JRS.

Maybe a few were offered longer term contracts and refused them.

Maybe the manager wanted rid anyway.

Pure speculation and certainly not worth getting angry about or suggesting any monies donated aren't being used in the best possible ways.

"Some days will stay a 1000 years, some pass like the flash of a spark"
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: Raymie the Legend  
Date:   Fri 22 May 19:09

Quote:

da_no_1, Fri 22 May 19:01

None of us know how this decision has been reached for definite.

Maybe some of the players were offered short term deals til the end of the JRS.

Maybe a few were offered longer term contracts and refused them.

Maybe the manager wanted rid anyway.

Pure speculation and certainly not worth getting angry about or suggesting any monies donated aren't being used in the best possible ways.


Was about to post pretty much the same




It's bloody tough being a legend
Ron Atkinson - 1983
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: jake89  
Date:   Fri 22 May 19:14

Christ on a bike. When did Amy McDonald become a football reporter and financial expert? Oh, that's right, never! The club won't have taken this decision lightly. Her taking about clubs "pleading poverty" is a disgraceful remark. Perhaps she can sell her Bentley to help the out of contract players out?
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: Pars Kebab  
Date:   Fri 22 May 19:16

Amy McDonald is a fecking bike btw.
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: Mr D.A  
Date:   Fri 22 May 19:25

Unfortunate for the players released, some senior and some who were hoping to have a career, but footballers aren’t alone at the moment, and as pointed out above it is common place at our level for big changes in personnel anyway.

The CJRS scheme is designed to protect employment for those that wouldn’t otherwise be made redundant if not for Covid-19. In the case of players, I’d imagine that the HMRC will expect any player that is offered an extension to have his contract extended beyond the furlough date ongoing. Therefore if we offered a player a deal til the end of July and then released him, I think HMRC would say that is against the spirit of the agreement and claim the paid wages back.

Only way it works is if you are willing to keep the player under contract beyond furlough because you want him, but given football may not resume at all (and even if it does with massively reduced income) this year, carrying new wages for 3-5 months puts huge pressure on the finances of the club.

Amy McDonald has a track record of sounding off when it comes to her husband being hard done by, but she should have taken the time to read the guidance....
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: jake89  
Date:   Fri 22 May 19:29

SPFL rules mean we can't extend beyond June without committing to keeping until Jan 2021. Surprised noone knows that. I checked in with Amy McDonald who is writing a song featuring all the SPFL rules and regulations. She's an expert.
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: londonparsfan  
Date:   Fri 22 May 19:36

Quote:

wee eck, Fri 22 May 18:03

Amy Macdonald's married to Richard Foster of Ross County. She's a 'Gers fan I think.


Absolute die hard if you've heard her on OFTB.
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: jake89  
Date:   Fri 22 May 19:40

Quote:

londonparsfan, Fri 22 May 19:36

Quote:

wee eck, Fri 22 May 18:03

Amy Macdonald's married to Richard Foster of Ross County. She's a 'Gers fan I think.


Absolute die hard if you've heard her on OFTB.


Sure it's purely coincidental, but guess who is soon to be out of contract at Ross County...?
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: sonofpetrie  
Date:   Fri 22 May 19:42

Couple of good posts from Mr DA and Jake there. The furlough scheme really isn't as simple and accessible as some think. It's certainly not there to keep options open on players nor is it there to keep people in the lifestyle to which people have become accustomed to.

I'm also inclined to agree with Da no 1, there is no way of knowing the thinking behind it and I don't think the list will have been vastly different had the pandemic not happened. I don't want my club to go bankrupt trying to hang onto the likes of Devine and Ashcroft.

"The only place success comes before work is in the dictionary"
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: parathletic  
Date:   Fri 22 May 19:43

If he's struggling for cash he can just begin divorce proceedings :)
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: Parahandy  
Date:   Fri 22 May 19:43

You can currently extend an existing contract to 31 August - that is still within the next transfer window if existing contract ends before or in the June transfer window



Post Edited (Fri 22 May 19:45)
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: Tenruh  
Date:   Fri 22 May 19:47

Quote:

jake89, Fri 22 May 19:40

Quote:

londonparsfan, Fri 22 May 19:36

Quote:

wee eck, Fri 22 May 18:03

Amy Macdonald's married to Richard Foster of Ross County. She's a 'Gers fan I think.


Absolute die hard if you've heard her on OFTB.


Sure it's purely coincidental, but guess who is soon to be out of contract at Ross County...?


Think Foster is the player's union rep
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: davepars  
Date:   Fri 22 May 19:53

Didnt furlough require employees to be employed by the business before a certain date? Would a new contract effectively void that?
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: gwh18  
Date:   Fri 22 May 20:01

Doesn’t rest easy with me. It’s not like many people will be in a position to get another job of any description at the moment. Maybe a business decision but i thought with the supposed community aspects of the club the honourable thing would have taken the extra costs on the chin, until players found a new club or scheme ended. What ever came sooner.




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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: cfad  
Date:   Fri 22 May 20:16

Quote:

gwh18, Fri 22 May 20:01

Doesn’t rest easy with me. It’s not like many people will be in a position to get another job of any description at the moment. Maybe a business decision but i thought with the supposed community aspects of the club the honourable thing would have taken the extra costs on the chin, until players found a new club or scheme ended. What ever came sooner.


Sad as it is, club comes before any individual player, always will
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: dd23  
Date:   Fri 22 May 20:23

Quote:

gwh18, Fri 22 May 20:01

Doesn’t rest easy with me. It’s not like many people will be in a position to get another job of any description at the moment. Maybe a business decision but i thought with the supposed community aspects of the club the honourable thing would have taken the extra costs on the chin, until players found a new club or scheme ended. What ever came sooner.


That's a ridiculous post. Take it on the chin???? Do you realise how tight money is and has been for us over the past few years?
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: Berry  
Date:   Fri 22 May 20:35

I wouldn’t have been surprised to see all they players released under normal circumstances anyway in truth.

It would’ve been nice if the Pars were able to do something short term to help them out under these exceptional circumstances but clearly that’s not been possible.

If only we hadn’t invested in that bloody Teqball table....

Wish them all the best and hope they land on their feet sooner rather than later.
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: BigJPar  
Date:   Fri 22 May 20:37

Ayr extended contracts till the end of June and kept players on furlough.
Why on earth did we not do the same??

Post Edited (Fri 22 May 20:38)
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: Andrew283  
Date:   Fri 22 May 20:40

Some utter morons wanting us to continue to pay players when it's very unlikely we will play football again in the Championship before November. People from all industries are losing their jobs just now, footballers shouldn't be special cases unless still under contract as crap a situation as it is
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: BigJPar  
Date:   Fri 22 May 20:42

Quote:

Andrew283, Fri 22 May 20:40

Some utter morons wanting us to continue to pay players when it's very unlikely we will play football again in the Championship before November. People from all industries are losing their jobs just now, footballers shouldn't be special cases unless still under contract as crap a situation as it is


Do you even understand furlough ?
Moron
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: da_no_1  
Date:   Fri 22 May 20:53

Quote:

BigJPar, Fri 22 May 20:37

Ayr extended contracts till the end of June and kept players on furlough.
Why on earth did we not do the same??


You do understand the wages of these 17 players would have to be paid in full then claims submitted to get up to 80% back. I'll take a wild stab in the dark here and say we probably don't have the will or the means to do this for players we might not have wanted to keep anyway.

Sorry but DAFC is not a charity. It's bad enough not having any income now but worse not knowing when we will. Cash flow and uncertainty will kill clubs and if these measures help preserve ours then the board have done what's needed of them.

"Some days will stay a 1000 years, some pass like the flash of a spark"

Post Edited (Fri 22 May 20:56)
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: par-91  
Date:   Fri 22 May 21:09

“You do understand the wages of these 17 players would have to be paid in full then claims submitted to get up to 80% back.“

That is absolutely not the case. Companies only have to pay the 80% of wages that the government cover. Some companies choose to top up the extra 20%, but this is absolutely not a requirement. Companies can also submit their claims mid-month and get the money before wages are paid. My company have already received the government funds for the May pay run.
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: RossF  
Date:   Fri 22 May 21:10

I thought we would have been in a much better position than most clubs with the lifeline and the 50k raised by the fans. I fear this will not look good on us with various clubs extending deals until the end of June. On the other hand, perhaps all of these players were going to be released anyway if this never happened. I seriously hope the players are able to find a way to make money during this period. It’s an awful situation.
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: Perkins  
Date:   Fri 22 May 21:10

"Topic Originator: da_no_1 |
Date: Fri 22 May 20:53

You do understand the wages of these 17 players would have to be paid in full then claims submitted to get up to 80% back."

They would not have to be paid in full. Employers can choose whether to pay in full or just pay the grant amount received. Employers pay up front and get the grant income has been paid out on the 6th of the month.
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: da_no_1  
Date:   Fri 22 May 21:27

Quote:

par-91, Fri 22 May 21:09

“You do understand the wages of these 17 players would have to be paid in full then claims submitted to get up to 80% back.“

That is absolutely not the case. Companies only have to pay the 80% of wages that the government cover. Some companies choose to top up the extra 20%, but this is absolutely not a requirement. Companies can also submit their claims mid-month and get the money before wages are paid. My company have already received the government funds for the May pay run.


Yeah I worded that wrong. Apologies. The point I was making is that we would have to pay wages up front then join a queue to claim back as much as possible, whilst having no income stream. All for players that might be deemed no longer required in the long run. Harsh but true perhaps

I'm on furlough just now and being paid in full, luckily the company I'm with topping up for now.

"Some days will stay a 1000 years, some pass like the flash of a spark"

Post Edited (Fri 22 May 21:39)
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: Hail2Crail  
Date:   Fri 22 May 21:57

Ayr have just temp extended out of contract players by a month. Paul paton applauded the link on twatter. Ohhhhhhhhhhhhsshhhhhiiiittttt
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: Parahandy  
Date:   Fri 22 May 21:58

No you can now get furlough payments in advance of paying them out. You can’t sign people on new contracts and put them on furlough but you can extend the finish date of the contract of someone who was on your payroll when furlough was introduced to allow them still to be paid under the scheme
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: par_33  
Date:   Fri 22 May 22:04

Ayr United saying their intention is to extend players contracts monthly to help them out. Who's the first to react with what you could say as support? Our ex-captain Paul Paton. Callum Smith also following suit.

If other clubs do help players out n extend contracts monthly, this could make us look very bad and influence future signings, why would we sign for Dunfermline?..they wouldn't have our backs in a bad situation etc etc

A long few months ahead I fear, not for us, but for all clubs. I'm already dreading next season, whenever it may begin.
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: Andrew283  
Date:   Fri 22 May 22:06

Quote:

BigJPar, Fri 22 May 20:42

Quote:

Andrew283, Fri 22 May 20:40

Some utter morons wanting us to continue to pay players when it's very unlikely we will play football again in the Championship before November. People from all industries are losing their jobs just now, footballers shouldn't be special cases unless still under contract as crap a situation as it is


Do you even understand furlough ?
Moron


Obviously you don't. We give these players another contract to say, January. Furlough is already getting cut down soon, to be removed in the next couple of months probably. We're then stuck paying a full team with next to no income, with no credit facilities. Explain how we pay that?
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: saltonsgonagetu  
Date:   Fri 22 May 22:14

Daily Record have financial expert saying clubs will go into administration with new rules where HMRC have to be paid in full ,and goes on to say clubs that are fan owned are more at risk due to no financial backer like Ayr .
https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/spfl-fired-warning-over-administration-22071802.amp?__twitter_impression=true



Post Edited (Fri 22 May 22:15)
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: parsfan97  
Date:   Fri 22 May 22:15

Furlough has been extended to the end of October, the chancellor has already said this. It’s absolutely shocking that we couldn’t extend contracts on a month by month basis as the furlough scheme would’ve covered these guys wages, and before anyone starts greeting, Ayr United have managed to extend players deals month by month to look after them, yet we just chuck 17 boys onto the scrap heap with no chance of getting a new club anytime soon
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: da_no_1  
Date:   Fri 22 May 22:18

Quote:

par_33, Fri 22 May 22:04

Ayr United saying their intention is to extend players contracts monthly to help them out. Who's the first to react with what you could say as support? Our ex-captain Paul Paton. Callum Smith also following suit.

If other clubs do help players out n extend contracts monthly, this could make us look very bad and influence future signings, why would we sign for Dunfermline?..they wouldn't have our backs in a bad situation etc etc

A long few months ahead I fear, not for us, but for all clubs. I'm already dreading next season, whenever it may begin.


To be fair Ayr haven't been in administration and a gnats baw away from liquidation in the past few years. Maybe it's a path nobody on the board want to risk going anywhere near again. I'm happy with that.

Although I have to say I'm struggling to understand the logic behind punting all out of contract players when there seems to be such an easy scheme to avoid the costs of paying them if we give them short term deals

"Some days will stay a 1000 years, some pass like the flash of a spark"
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: da_no_1  
Date:   Fri 22 May 22:19

Quote:

parsfan97, Fri 22 May 22:15

Furlough has been extended to the end of October, the chancellor has already said this. It’s absolutely shocking that we couldn’t extend contracts on a month by month basis as the furlough scheme would’ve covered these guys wages, and before anyone starts greeting, Ayr United have managed to extend players deals month by month to look after them, yet we just chuck 17 boys onto the scrap heap with no chance of getting a new club anytime soon


The current 80/20 scheme ends in July mate. August to October will be vastly different to the way it is now

"Some days will stay a 1000 years, some pass like the flash of a spark"

Post Edited (Fri 22 May 22:20)
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: parsfan97  
Date:   Fri 22 May 22:22

So? Pretty sure they boys would’ve been happy till end of July where football will be closer to a restart, what these boys gonny do now? Go work at Asda or sit on the dole? Pretty shambolic from us
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: da_no_1  
Date:   Fri 22 May 22:24

Quote:

parsfan97, Fri 22 May 22:22

So? Pretty sure they boys would’ve been happy till end of July where football will be closer to a restart, what these boys gonny do now? Go work at Asda or sit on the dole? Pretty shambolic from us


Just countering your point that furlough runs til October. In it's current form it doesn't

"Some days will stay a 1000 years, some pass like the flash of a spark"
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: parsfan97  
Date:   Fri 22 May 22:27

In a boost to millions of jobs and businesses, Rishi Sunak said the furlough scheme would be extended by a further four months with workers continuing to receive 80% of their current salary.

From the gov.co.uk website

It changes in August when you can put staff on furlough for 3 weeks and then take them off for 3 weeks, to allow work for 3 then off for 3, so the 80% is there till October, unless the chancellor is just making it up
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: par_33  
Date:   Fri 22 May 22:28

Pars fans having pops at Rangers on twitter for releasing players too. Quite funny really.

For one, they hadn't furloughed their players and secondly, them 6 odd players weren't gonna wear a Rangers jersey again. Even us Pars fans would know that.

However, we've clearly stated we are in no position to offer contacts. So how many of them players woulda been handed contracts if we were? I think the majority of them 20s would of stayed on with maybe two or three first teamers.
The club make this statement like they hope some of these players will still be available to sign once the situation is all over, they better forget that, we've hung these players out to dry, I don't think these players will forget that, especially the younger ones I particularly feel sorry for.

However, there will probably be a couple who won't be bothered and knew their futures lay elsewhere, Joe Thomson and Tom Beadling, the latter who I had a conversation with and stated before this began he wouldn't be with us next season. Nice lad, spoke well of the club, wish him well.
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: da_no_1  
Date:   Fri 22 May 22:32

Quote:

parsfan97, Fri 22 May 22:27

In a boost to millions of jobs and businesses, Rishi Sunak said the furlough scheme would be extended by a further four months with workers continuing to receive 80% of their current salary.

From the gov.co.uk website

It changes in August when you can put staff on furlough for 3 weeks and then take them off for 3 weeks, to allow work for 3 then off for 3, so the 80% is there till October, unless the chancellor is just making it up


The rest of that article

"The chancellor also said that from August, employers would need to “share with the government the cost of paying salaries,” in an indication that the level of state support would gradually taper away. The scheme is currently costing the government about £14bn a month"

So I'm guessing the 80% won't continue after July

"Some days will stay a 1000 years, some pass like the flash of a spark"

Post Edited (Fri 22 May 22:33)
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: parsfan97  
Date:   Fri 22 May 22:35

So the club still could’ve done more to support these guys then till at least end of July then and would’ve cost them nothing. Even without the 20% top
up sure they would’ve took 80% over **** all
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: EEP  
Date:   Fri 22 May 22:39

looking at who has gone imo they would have been released anyway? We were a mid table team.
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: londonparsfan  
Date:   Fri 22 May 22:39

They would still have had to pay NIC contributions. I don't know of there is anything else on top?
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: da_no_1  
Date:   Fri 22 May 22:40

Quote:

parsfan97, Fri 22 May 22:35

So the club still could’ve done more to support these guys then till at least end of July then and would’ve cost them nothing. Even without the 20% top
up sure they would’ve took 80% over **** all


I'm not disagreeing with you but I can't get angry about it as I don't know the facts about our finances. If this move guarantees the clubs short term future, which would appear to be the only explanation, then it's worth doing.

"Some days will stay a 1000 years, some pass like the flash of a spark"

Post Edited (Fri 22 May 22:43)
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: wee eck  
Date:   Fri 22 May 22:53

My understanding is that, when the scheme is adjusted so that the government no longer pays 80%, the employer will be required to top up the wages to 80% - they do not have a choice - so the club would have a financial liability from 1 August if contracts were still running.
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: saltonsgonagetu  
Date:   Fri 22 May 23:02

If we like Ayr had a very rich benefactor ,we may have been able to do the same as them .

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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: Raymie the Legend  
Date:   Fri 22 May 23:11

Quote:

parsfan97, Fri 22 May 22:35

So the club still could’ve done more to support these guys then till at least end of July then and would’ve cost them nothing. Even without the 20% top
up sure they would’ve took 80% over **** all


Are you suggesting we should have offered all 17 guys a new contract ?
I’ve kicked more balls for the first team than some of these on the list
It’s unfortunate, but there are households up and down the country who have lost their jobs too.




It's bloody tough being a legend
Ron Atkinson - 1983
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: twin par  
Date:   Fri 22 May 23:11

Can't blame the club.We have to look after our long term future.We won't be the last,what the hell do they expect them to do ?
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: par-91  
Date:   Sat 23 May 00:01

“ My understanding is that, when the scheme is adjusted so that the government no longer pays 80%, the employer will be required to top up the wages to 80% - they do not have a choice - so the club would have a financial liability from 1 August if contracts were still running.”

Which is why other clubs are offering month-to-month contracts. Ayr and Dundee offered extensions to the end of June at the moment. Again, doing this, keeping them furloughed and not topping up the extra 20% over the next 2 months would cost the club nothing, but provide valuable income to the players.

Dundee said this was done based on SPFL advice. Ross McArthur, the SPFL board member advises other clubs to support their staff. It makes it even more disappointing that Ross McArthur, the Dunfermline chairman, wont do the same for his own staff.
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: Westies squint kicks  
Date:   Sat 23 May 00:18

"Ayr United extend out of contract players for one month to look after them " - story on Twitter to which Paul Paton (the real one) has replied using the "Clapping" emoji .
Feeling like an own goal I'm afraid.
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: Athletico  
Date:   Sat 23 May 01:04

Really quite angry at how the club has gone about this, our reputation has already been dragged through the mud after the whole vote/Whatsapp shambles, and now this? I fear this will have a longlasting impact on us. We will no doubt be in for the same players as the likes of Ayr, Dundee and Falkirk, and I think a club that looked after its players would be the more attractive offer.
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: AdamAntsParsStripe  
Date:   Sat 23 May 01:22

Surprised at Ash going. Would have wished Paton had stayed but he tweeted goodbye some weeks ago which was a hint in itself.
Many of the others we can deal with as much as I'm sorry for guys like Callum Smith etc

My biggest worry is that yet again for the 3rd year running, we're starting with a new squad which, no matter how good it may be, needs time to gel on and off the park.

We'll never be successful by resetting the team every single season.

If you only turn up to moan then do it elsewhere
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: widtink  
Date:   Sat 23 May 01:34

Would you be angrier if we went to the wall because we kept players on the books that we don't need?
A lot of these players would maybe have been let go at the end of the regular season anyway... We've just done it quicker because of the premature ending of the season.
As much as I sympathise with the players that have been let go, you can't compare our circumstances against any other club because of the way we are funded.
I often see folk moaning on here that our board are maybe good business brains... But not so good at running a football club.
Well this is a business decision.
And I'd hazard a guess a decision that wasn't taken lightly.
Businesses all over the world are slashing their workforces... This is no different. Tough calls have to be made in tough times.
Not pleasant... But needs must.



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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: parathletic  
Date:   Sat 23 May 08:13

The way I see it is that extending players contracts who otherwise would have been released could be seen as an abuse of the furlough system that ultimately we will all be paying back somehow.I don't think it was designed to keep players(or any workers) who would/could have been made redundant and would be looking for a club(or other work) anyway-as sad and difficult as that is for those it effects.Contract workers up and down the country will suffer as a consequence-footballers unfortunately fall under that umbrella. It's unfortunate that we are having to do it but how many times has the club suffered as a result of players turning down contracts in recent years? It's a cut-throat business,with little loyalty on either side as depressing as that may sound.It's imperative that we treat the club as number one whilst remaining sympathetic to the players's plight. I'm sure for example that if players are struggling to find a club we would assist with training facilities where appropriate?


The only real surprise was Ashcroft-who may have been offered a contract? or be deemed as a high earner and alternatives already looked at before this pandemic? The decisions may have been largely based on football anyway?

The other consideration is that training of some sort may well be back soon enough-I presume that since you can't work while on furlough we would have a scenario of contracted players sitting at home anyway.By doing it early at least we are giving the released players maximum chance of finding another club as difficult as that may be.

If some of the younger players are deemed of the required potential and don't have a club I'm sure down the line we may be able to offer them something if and when we are in a position to do so.
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: GJS93  
Date:   Sat 23 May 08:14

^^ correct widtink. stuff about players might not want to come here after this, yes they will.

anyway, an interview with Ross McArthur in the Daily Mail today

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-8350061/Dunfermline-chairman-Ross-McArthur-says-axe-17-players.html
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: wee eck  
Date:   Sat 23 May 08:16

Tom Beadling is to be on the next sports bulletin on Radio Scotland after 8.30.
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: par-91  
Date:   Sat 23 May 08:21

Widtink, I don’t think you seem to be understanding the main reason people are annoyed about this. It would cost the club nothing to offer month-to-month extensions (as other clubs have done) and keep them furloughed, receiving 80% of their wages (up to £2,500 per month)

The PFA have asked all clubs to do this, after the SFA have approved short term contracts in the current crisis. The SPFL board (including our chairman) have advised other clubs to do that. But we leave people out of work and unable to get new clubs, for no obvious reason.

The government provide 80% of salaries up to £2,500 per month, to the end of July. This includes the employees NI contribution and any tax on the salary. This can be claimed for ahead of the actual pay run, meaning you receive the money before paying it out. The club are not left out of pocket because of this. Players were all told by the PFA that all clubs were asked to do this for out of contract players, to provide some stability for them. Therefore, every single player in Scotland knows that we’ve gone against PFA advice, to throw these players out and leave them with no income. This does not sit well with me and will have a very negative impact on our reputation.

Government guideline are also very clear on fixed term contracts being extended. You can extend these contracts during furlough and do not need to provide evidence that there is any requirement/need for these contracts to be extended. So that rules out that theory as well.
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: parathletic  
Date:   Sat 23 May 08:25

If every out of contract player from every club in the country was placed on furlough-think of the additional cost to the taxpayer.

Some of the players would have been 'thrown' out anyway. The fact that there is a lack of buying clubs due to a global pandemic cannot be blamed on the Pars!
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: GJS93  
Date:   Sat 23 May 08:36

its so simple yet Hamilton, Kilmarnock and Dundee Utd also did the same as us this week and more clubs will do the same.



Post Edited (Sat 23 May 09:09)
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: Sliema Par  
Date:   Sat 23 May 08:37

As wee eck pointed out,Tom Beadling came across well on "Good Morning Scotland".

I think many of us are incredulous that Paul Paton,Lee Ashcroft,Danny Devine,Joe Thomson and Tom Beadling were not retained on furlough.

Tom posed that pertinent question himself.
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: wee eck  
Date:   Sat 23 May 08:48

The Daily Mail interview didn't ask RMcA the critical question - why not extend the contracts as long as the govt was prepared to pay 80% of the players' wages? Could it be that, as the club had undertaken to 'top up' their wages up to 31 May, they may have had to continue to do this if they extended the same contracts?
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: parathletic  
Date:   Sat 23 May 08:51

Topic Originator: Sliema Par like | nolike
Date: Sat 23 May 08:37

As wee eck pointed out,Tom Beadling came across well on "Good Morning Scotland".

I think many of us are incredulous that Paul Paton,Lee Ashcroft,Danny Devine,Joe Thomson and Tom Beadling were not retained on furlough.

Tom posed that pertinent question himself.



How do you know that Crawford wasn't looking to improve these areas of the team/reduce costs with alternatives anyway?
You could argue that if we had been determined to keep them then we would have offered contracts to them earlier(before Coronavirus) like we did with Dow and Martin in January.On the other hand perhaps we did and they were turned down.
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: wee eck  
Date:   Sat 23 May 09:07

Ayr Utd manager Mark Kerr is due to be interviewed on the next RS sports bulletin around 9.30.
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: wee eck  
Date:   Sat 23 May 09:39

RS were unable to link up with Mark Kerr.
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: Bamba-Daft  
Date:   Sat 23 May 09:48

Club have had a shocker here. These aren’t normal times, where keeping players on who might have been released anyway would be a stupid decision. These boys won’t get signed up again for a long time IMO, another PR disaster from Mr McArthur.
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: parathletic  
Date:   Sat 23 May 09:52

Ross County look like they are agreeing with our approach

https://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/fp/sport/football/ross-county/2209884/staggies-will-not-exploit-furlough-scheme-for-out-of-contract-players-says-macgregor/

Can't wait for Amy MacDonald's reaction to that.

Kind of like I mentioned above-interesting that they 'have taken legal and HMRC advice'



Post Edited (Sat 23 May 09:56)
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: DA-go Par Adonis  
Date:   Sat 23 May 09:57

Regardless of the legalities, it's not ethically a black and white issue either.

Is it right to extend a contract for one more month, just so the state and taxpayers get burdened further?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I love it when we don't sell Kevin Nisbet,
He's gonna score in every game 'til Christmas,
And every touch is goal la la la, it's goal la la la,
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: eastendalloapar  
Date:   Sat 23 May 10:03

The way I feel the now if furlough could have been used to keep our players. I'm totally gutted and I feel so sorry. Perhaps we are now seeing a side of RM that others from other clubs have spoken about. To have kept them for another season I would have gladly paid for a season ticket. Now I am asking myself do I want to go back whilst RM is the chairman. Does anyone else feel like me?

matt forsyth
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: parathletic  
Date:   Sat 23 May 10:12

Ross County have taken legal and HMRC advice and yet some folk think we should have gone down a different route.I'm sure RM has done the due diligence on this.Looks to me like he has been honest with all parties(players, fans and taxpayers) and has taken a decision that avoids any potential repercussions for abuse of the furlough system.It's a tough decision he has taken on a personal level no doubt but that's what he is there to do.
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: jake89  
Date:   Sat 23 May 10:25

What's depressing is that people seem to think McArthur has just done this to be a git. This will have been one of the hardest decisions he's had to make. We can't borrow money. We can get "donations" but I can't imagine Braisby Roofing or Purvis Group are doing a great deal of business right now. You can't be angry at Ross and the board. Surely more sympathetic.

What DOES make me angry is millionaires like Amy McDonald commenting on the matter from her ivory tower. If she's that upset about it, why not support a player's fund to help them and their families? Nah, just go to the Daily Record and rub salt in the wound.
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: Par  
Date:   Sat 23 May 10:27

Footballers will jump if they get a better offer, so while I don't like anyone losing their jobs they are in the same position as a lot of people are either in at the moment or will be in.

The survival of the club is the most important thing.
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: da_no_1  
Date:   Sat 23 May 10:32

Quote:

eastendalloapar, Sat 23 May 10:03

The way I feel the now if furlough could have been used to keep our players. I'm totally gutted and I feel so sorry. Perhaps we are now seeing a side of RM that others from other clubs have spoken about. To have kept them for another season I would have gladly paid for a season ticket. Now I am asking myself do I want to go back whilst RM is the chairman. Does anyone else feel like me?


I know I'd rather trust Ross McArthur than the Dundee board or Amy McDonald

"Some days will stay a 1000 years, some pass like the flash of a spark"
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: Andrew283  
Date:   Sat 23 May 10:33

Quote:

Bamba-Daft, Sat 23 May 09:48

Club have had a shocker here. These aren’t normal times, where keeping players on who might have been released anyway would be a stupid decision. These boys won’t get signed up again for a long time IMO, another PR disaster from Mr McArthur.


Dry your eyes. Not the first club to punt players and won't be the last.
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: cammypar 1995  
Date:   Sat 23 May 10:35

Quote:

par_33, Fri 22 May 15:20

Amy Macdonald has got a point tbf.


She should try and release a decent song for a change

c'mon the pars
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: Raymie the Legend  
Date:   Sat 23 May 10:35

Quote:

parathletic, Sat 23 May 09:52

Ross County look like they are agreeing with our approach

https://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/fp/sport/football/ross-county/2209884/staggies-will-not-exploit-furlough-scheme-for-out-of-contract-players-says-macgregor/

Can't wait for Amy MacDonald's reaction to that.

Kind of like I mentioned above-interesting that they 'have taken legal and HMRC advice'


I think McGregor calls it correctly




It's bloody tough being a legend
Ron Atkinson - 1983
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: wetherby  
Date:   Sat 23 May 10:38

Pretty sure Parathletic nails it.
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: cammypar 1995  
Date:   Sat 23 May 10:41

Quote:

BigJPar, Fri 22 May 20:42

Quote:

Andrew283, Fri 22 May 20:40

Some utter morons wanting us to continue to pay players when it's very unlikely we will play football again in the Championship before November. People from all industries are losing their jobs just now, footballers shouldn't be special cases unless still under contract as crap a situation as it is


Do you even understand furlough ?
Moron


I'd imagine you don't as employees now need to pay a contribution to the payments. For players we wouldn't be keeping anyway it would be madness. The only one I'd imagine we would have kept would be ashcroft. Beading only played about 1/4 of the season and if you take his goal v celtic away you struggle to see what he offered.

c'mon the pars
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: wee eck  
Date:   Sat 23 May 10:43

It's always disappointing when so many people on here have a knee-jerk reaction to something before they've heard both sides of the story. It's even more disappointing that it usually means them being unfairly critical of the club.
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: da_no_1  
Date:   Sat 23 May 10:49

Quote:

wee eck, Sat 23 May 10:43

It's always disappointing when so many people on here have a knee-jerk reaction to something before they've heard both sides of the story. It's even more disappointing that it usually means them being unfairly critical of the club.


Exactly. You wonder if they react like that in other walks of life?

"Some days will stay a 1000 years, some pass like the flash of a spark"
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: GG Riva  
Date:   Sat 23 May 10:50

Quote:

eastendalloapar, Sat 23 May 10:03

The way I feel the now if furlough could have been used to keep our players. I'm totally gutted and I feel so sorry. Perhaps we are now seeing a side of RM that others from other clubs have spoken about. To have kept them for another season I would have gladly paid for a season ticket. Now I am asking myself do I want to go back whilst RM is the chairman. Does anyone else feel like me?


I'm sorry you feel the way you do, eeap. As someone who has been privileged to know Ross for several years now, I can vouch for his unswerving love and dedication to the Pars and that he's a thoroughly honest and decent human being, working tirelessly under the most difficult financial circumstances. Arguably the best Chairman we've had in my time of following the Pars and I go back as far as Leonard Jack, who was cast in the same mould.

This "other side" to him that you imagine is probably gleaned from misinformation on social media and in the press. It's pure fantasy.



Not your average Sunday League player.
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: rossmcno1  
Date:   Sat 23 May 10:59

Suspect more than a grain of truth in the Ross County position.

It’s harsh and horrible but reality is that maybe only Ashcroft would have been offered a deal out of that list from this year anyways or indeed maybe not dependant on the managers thoughts for the next season.

Best wishes to those players.

For people lining up to have a pop have a word with yourself, get the full facts before forming an opinion. If you don’t think that Ross McA has acted in best interests of the long term future of the club....



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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: KnebworthPar  
Date:   Sat 23 May 11:26

As difficult as this must have been for the board and Ross, you can’t really argue with what they’ve done. If clubs release players after an extended furlough period then this is not in the spirit of the furlough scheme and they could/should be subject to investigation and potential penalty by HMRC.
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: The Roy Barry Fan Club  
Date:   Sat 23 May 11:56

It is worth noting that DAFC opted to pay all of its staff (football and non football) who were put on furlough 100% of their basic salaries. [Chairman's Statement 9 April]. Many companies including football clubs paid 80% only as they are allowed to do. Some football clubs even negotiated substantial salary reductions with their staff in addition (Hearts).

Is the suggestion that we put some players on furlough at a rate that costs us nothing ( 80% of salary) if so, we would have two groups of players -- one who we wish to keep -- receiving 100% of salary and one who we don't but we've put on a monthly rolling contract at 80% of pay. Presumably we ditch those on 1 August when the furlough terms are reduced?

If so, it really doesn't look good to me .

And if by any miracle training starts before 1 August, then presumably we only call back to work those on contracts to the end of next year (31/5/21) . The guys on rolling monthly contracts would be left on furlough as they are being fully funded by the government. Is that right?

I suggest that we focus on being able to pay the guys we have under contract. Right now, I don't see a sustainable income stream until the turn of the year.
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: JimMcDAFC  
Date:   Sat 23 May 11:58

Has it not sunk in that we along with quite a few other clubs are in real danger of going out of business over this crisis. I am not going to make a judgement over this decision by the club because I am not aware of our finances at present but I would think that we are in a more precarious position than most because of our past and present position, ie no sugar daddy and not allowed to borrow money etc. I just hope we are one of the club's who can survive.
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: Sliema Par  
Date:   Sat 23 May 13:29

I endorse the views of wee eck and GG Riva.

I have spoken to every Chairman since I was a child in 1965.

Ross is the best, most approachable, transparent, loyal, hard working, decent Chairman the Club has ever had.
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: doctordandruff  
Date:   Sat 23 May 14:44

I'm sure he is a decent bloke, but we've got it wrong here. Really poor. Would be very easy to make a case we are looking to retain the players.
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: jake89  
Date:   Sat 23 May 14:50

Quote:

doctordandruff, Sat 23 May 14:44

I'm sure he is a decent bloke, but we've got it wrong here. Really poor. Would be very easy to make a case we are looking to retain the players.


Perhaps contact the club for how to achieve this.
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: Grant  
Date:   Sat 23 May 14:55

Ross needs to come out and justify why we haven't keep the players on furlough.

This will make us look bad for prospective signings aswell, makes it look like we don't take care of players.
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: Bod1004  
Date:   Sat 23 May 15:00

QOS have released 16 players and are only left with 3 players, don’t see them getting it as tight as we are
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: par_33  
Date:   Sat 23 May 15:13

Maybe cause QoS haven't officially stated this yet, just in the papers this morning.
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: Malcolm Canmore  
Date:   Sat 23 May 15:13

<https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/ross-county-chairman-roy-macgregor-22074588>

My dog eats meat
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks  
Date:   Sat 23 May 15:22

Interesting words from Roy Mcgregor, net worth 98 million pounds.

Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: neils  
Date:   Sat 23 May 15:34

Don't think anyone net worth has anything to do with it.

At what date was his net worth this figure? It will not be this now!

Basically all clubs, like all businesses are fighting for their lives.
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: elvis_lives  
Date:   Sat 23 May 15:37

Sounds like the potential HMRC liability is the key.
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: parathletic  
Date:   Sat 23 May 15:37

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/52783125

Can't believe some folk would still rather us risk a potentially club crippling future HMRC bill having been advised by legal professionals that this could be a possible scenario down the line for the sake of some supposed bad PR now.

To the man on the street I see it as good PR-rather than football using the system any differently to all other professions we have used furlough in the spirit it was meant to be.

We didn't toss a coin to make the decision.Careful thought and consideration will have gone into it.It's pretty obvious, to most, why we have reached the conclusion we did-see McGregor's comments.



Post Edited (Sat 23 May 15:42)
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: parathletic  
Date:   Sat 23 May 15:39


Topic Originator: elvis_lives like | nolike
Date: Sat 23 May 15:37

Sounds like the potential HMRC liability is the key.



100%-coupled with potentially having your club's name dragged through the mud for not using the furlough system for the reasons it was set out for.
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: neils  
Date:   Sat 23 May 16:07

Give it less than a week, methinks there will be one or two more.....
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: JamesAndrew74  
Date:   Sat 23 May 16:19

Quote:

Grant, Sat 23 May 14:55

Ross needs to come out and justify why we haven't keep the players on furlough.

This will make us look bad for prospective signings aswell, makes it look like we don't take care of players.


As did Dundee Utd and Kilmarnock this week.
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: cammypar 1995  
Date:   Sat 23 May 16:43

Rangers have released a good few as well but it seems that because they weren't firdt team players it's fine? Apart from ashcroft and paton none of ours were first team 2 were on loan to a lower league

c'mon the pars
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: BlackLight  
Date:   Sat 23 May 16:59


In a NORMAL season we'd be letting almost all out of contact players go at this time. You haven't been paying attention if you haven't noticed that over the last 5-10 years.

Obviously this is not a normal season.

DAFC hasn't got an overdraft. We can pay players what's in the bank account and that's it. Looking at a future with next to no income, the club has to plan for a future with next to no costs.

It's horrible, but it's reality. If you want a different reality then you need to be providing the club with more income. It ain't coming from anywhere else.
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: GG Riva  
Date:   Sat 23 May 17:01

Quote:

parathletic, Sat 23 May 15:37

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/52783125

Can't believe some folk would still rather us risk a potentially club crippling future HMRC bill having been advised by legal professionals that this could be a possible scenario down the line for the sake of some supposed bad PR now.

To the man on the street I see it as good PR-rather than football using the system any differently to all other professions we have used furlough in the spirit it was meant to be.

We didn't toss a coin to make the decision.Careful thought and consideration will have gone into it.It's pretty obvious, to most, why we have reached the conclusion we did-see McGregor's comments.


Good post, but some folk have already made up their minds that our BoD are a cynical bunch who have thrown 17 out of contract players on the scrap heap. I'm sure all the players affected would have appreciated an extra month's salary but then what? Would they not be in exactly the same situation at the end of June?

One or two may have been fortunate enough to pen a deal with another club, but what's to stop them doing it a few weeks earlier? Sadly, I don't think there will be many clubs in a position to offer contracts to new players any time soon, given the uncertain future of the game at this time.



Not your average Sunday League player.
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: neils  
Date:   Sat 23 May 17:02

Well said blacklight,
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: Pars Kebab  
Date:   Sat 23 May 17:25

Sevco drones hammering the pars and in particular our chairman. Hoping that we go out of business . To a man they really are the dregs of society .
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: da_no_1  
Date:   Sat 23 May 17:29

Quote:

Pars Kebab, Sat 23 May 17:25

Sevco drones hammering the pars and in particular our chairman. Hoping that we go out of business . To a man they really are the dregs of society .


Where are you reading this? And why do you bother?!

"Some days will stay a 1000 years, some pass like the flash of a spark"
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: storminNorman  
Date:   Sat 23 May 18:03

surely if your out of contract as a professional footballer and are not being considered for a new contract the club let you know and when your contract ends you and the club part ways in most cases.
now any club extending the contract of any player they don't intend to keep just so the government continue to pay the wages through the furlough scheme could in the fullness of time find that HMRC take a very dim view on this and there might be some loophole that effectively allows the government to claw back all moneys paid out due to that clubs misuse of the scheme,do we as a club want to be in that situation some time this or next year fighting HMRC and trying stop them claiming all furlough cash back?
now i don't claim to be an expert in furlough,Tax and finance but giving players out of contract an extra month to me at this time sounds immoral and could be technically illegal.
in my opinion the club have acted correctly.
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: jojo  
Date:   Sat 23 May 18:34

Do you think those who were apparently offered new contracts in January (according to SportSound ) and declined to sign were thinking of club loyalty and the long term welfare of DAFC then ? Course not , they took the risk of being released to a saturated free agent market with the hope of securing a new club and would probably have bailed for a few extra £££ without a thought for DAFC. It’s the nature of the profession.
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: Berry  
Date:   Sat 23 May 18:57

In the BBC article:

‘The midfielder said the news came as a surprise, given how long some of the players had been with Dunfermline.’

‘As a player, you're hoping your club will recognise that and show you that support.’

The board have made the right decision for the club, they definitely have, but did they do it in the best possible way, we won’t know that.

When this virus kicked in and lockdown started it was a no brainer that it was going to seriously impact football and really quite early on there should’ve been discussions with the players at that time, certainly those coming to the end of a contract of what the worst case scenario would be.

I hope we did that.

Amy McDonald talks about using the furlough scheme to give players the opportunity to find another job within or more likely out with football or in the very unlikely event football resumed.

If they were given plenty of notice (we’ve been in lockdown for 9-10 weeks now) they may well have had another job lined up already for this time and there wouldn’t be the need for extending furlough.

Appreciate players were still in contract but realistically I think under the circumstances there would have been some amicable agreement struck to let them go earlier if they found something.

As some have mentioned the players who have left I don’t think the majority we would’ve wanted to keep if we were able to afford it for next season.
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: dave67  
Date:   Sat 23 May 19:12

Queen of the South follow Dunfermline’s move by releasing 16 players leaving just THREE on their books

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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: cfad  
Date:   Sat 23 May 19:17

10 years from now, the Chairman and the board won’t be remembered for releasing 17 players post season, they’ll either be remembered for keeping the club existing throughout the COVID pandemic, or for being the people who were at the helm as the club ceased to exist
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: Socks  
Date:   Sat 23 May 19:49

It's not a pleasant situation for anyone and of course it's raelly tough for these players to finish their contracts with little hope of finding anything elsewhere at the moment. Balancing that, there's the equally unethical position of misusing a government scheme aimed at job retention - I'm uncomfortable with any employer keeping staff on using this scheme that have no chance of staying in employment once the scheme ends.

The risk of keeping players on on this basis is that although the money would be paid by government now, there's a risk of this arrangement being challenged months or years down the line. If it was found that retaining players with no prospect of continued employment was an abuse of the system, there could be a very large liability to HMRC, effectively the full amount received for this extension of contracts.

How much of a risk is hard to say, but all clubs will do their own investigative work and come to a decision based on how much their future liability might be, what the probability of being forced to repay the money is, and their likely ability to meet that liability. As well as deciding whether or not they feel comfortable doing it at all. If you have only a few players out of contract and the total amount isn't that much of your annual income, you might be tempted to extend contracts knowing that if the worst were to happen you could repay the money. If you have a lot of players then your potential liability is much larger.

It's a tough one for any club, but if we avoid the risk of a crippling payment to HMRC in future, it's hard to criticise the decision. A tough one all round.
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: The Roy Barry Fan Club  
Date:   Sat 23 May 20:01

Fair summary Socks.

I've read the statutory provisions, and I am troubled.

I wouldn't want to bet the house, or the Club, on it. There is a very wide anti avoidance clause.
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: eastendalloapar  
Date:   Sat 23 May 20:18

If the league starts say in August as a behind closed league. Do we have enough players on our books to play or will we have to get new signings?

matt forsyth
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: da_no_1  
Date:   Sat 23 May 20:37

Quote:

The Roy Barry Fan Club, Sat 23 May 20:01

Fair summary Socks.

I've read the statutory provisions, and I am troubled.

I wouldn't want to bet the house, or the Club, on it. There is a very wide anti avoidance clause.


I'm really dense.....can you explain that further if possible 😁

"Some days will stay a 1000 years, some pass like the flash of a spark"
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: neils  
Date:   Sat 23 May 20:40

No clubs will have many players, and there will be a rush maybe lasting a week to sign only a few players, then that's it.

I'm sure it will be one skeleton team Vs another skeleton team.
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: neils  
Date:   Sat 23 May 20:41

Apart from Partick Thistle, they have got a load of horses signed until 2022........
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: Stanza  
Date:   Sat 23 May 20:43

Every year at this time every club management notifies a group of its out-of-contract players that they are not being offered a new contract - seldom does it make the national news, and it's a bit surprising that DAFC have suddenly become high profile enough to be featured.

When the furlough scheme was announced, there was some dubiety about whether it could be applied to employees who signed new contracts. That would (or at least should) have alerted players at any club who were coming to the end of their contracts in May that there was a potential problem ahead. I realise most were unlikely to have enquired too deeply, and several probably hoped to be offered new terms, however unrealistic that hope was.

Legal advice seems to be conflicting on the risks of an employer reclaiming wages, NI etc for employees they did not intend to retain. But it's worth remembering that when Old Rangers paid their players large sums of money through Employment Benefit Trusts they probably thought they were being clever by exploiting a loophole in the HMRC regulations. That came back to bite them, several years down the line. With no foreseeable income for several months at best, and (presumably) little in the way of financial reserves, the DAFC Board probably reckoned the risks were too great.

Anyone who has had any contact or dealings with the Chairman or the Board members will know how painful this decision must have been.

_________________

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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: EEP  
Date:   Sat 23 May 20:48

Just play what we have left and young Fife Elite boys to come through?
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: wee eck  
Date:   Sat 23 May 20:50

If the players' agents were doing their job they should have made themselves familiar with the provisions of the furlough scheme and advised their clients accordingly of the possible pitfalls if they were hoping for a temporary extension.
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: Stanza  
Date:   Sat 23 May 20:54

Topic Originator: eastendalloapar like | nolike
Date: Sat 23 May 20:18

If the league starts say in August as a behind closed league. Do we have enough players on our books to play or will we have to get new signings?

matt forsyth


I think we have the makings of a reasonable team from players with first team experience who are still in contract . Of the 17 who are out of contract, only 4-5 were first team regulars.

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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: EEP  
Date:   Sat 23 May 20:55

Well that’s 17 players gone so let’s get on with it?
All money raised by fans etc should see the club through?
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: Socks  
Date:   Sat 23 May 21:02

This is the official document on the scheme:

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/879484/200414_CJRS_DIRECTION_-_33_FINAL_Signed.pdf

I've only skimmed it quickly but the only relevant clause I see is 2.5:

2.5 No CJRS claim may be made in respect of an employee if it is abusive or is otherwise contrary to the exceptional purpose of CJRS

This is indeed pretty broad, and if that's all there is to go on then it wouldn't be surprising if there was some doubt as to whether short-term extensions, as proposed by many, would constitute abuse. However, you could easily make the argument that it would be 'contrary to the exceptional purposes of CJRS' - 'retention' surely implies that the job will exist after the scheme ends.
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: wee eck  
Date:   Sat 23 May 21:19

It would have avoided a lot of unwanted speculation if our board had included in their public statement an explanation of why they didn't think it was appropriate to offer short-term extensions.
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: Mon-pa  
Date:   Sat 23 May 21:39

For interests sake, who were the 3 that QOTS have retained?

ARTY
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: Par  
Date:   Sat 23 May 21:59

only under those contract Stephen Dobbie, Kevin Holt and reserve keeper Jack Leighfield.
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: Mon-pa  
Date:   Sat 23 May 22:10

So Gary Oliver available....

ARTY
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: neils  
Date:   Sat 23 May 22:14

We have the backbone of a good team with our players contracted.

If Corona hadn't happened, we would definitely be in a good place to push for promotion next season, we probably still will if we can get through this.

It's a shame for the out of contract players, but really only 2 maybe 3 had any future anyway with us, the confusion regards legal issues HMRC/furlough kind of says we should avoid furloughing players whose contract had finished.

We have heard quotes from at least a dozen employers/tax , none are clear.

So do this, and move on.
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: parathletic  
Date:   Sun 24 May 08:11

Anyone think this should have been taken out of the clubs hands and some guidance put in place to ensure it was a one size fits all approach for all clubs? Doesn't seem right each club having to go and seek independent advice and getting into muddied political waters.


Just put a rule in place.For example you can furlough an employee but then you must offer them a minimum 6 months of employment at the end of the scheme or the money has to be paid back.I'm sure you could pick holes in that and that's just off the top of my head but it would show that your intentions all along were to offer the individual continued employment and would remain within the intended spirit of the scheme.Just a thought.



edited my poor grammar :)



Post Edited (Sun 24 May 11:01)
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: GG Riva  
Date:   Sun 24 May 10:51

Quote:

parathletic, Sun 24 May 08:11

Anyone think this should have been taken out of the clubs hands and some guidance put in place to ensure it was a one size fits all approach for all clubs? Doesn't seem right each club going having to seek independent advice and get into muddied political waters.


Just put a rule in place.For example you can furlough an employee but then you must offer them a minimum 6 months of employment at the end of the scheme or the money has to be paid back.I'm sure you could pick holes in that and that's just off the top of my head but it would show that your intentions all along were to offer the individual continued employment and would remain within the intended spirit of the scheme.Just a thought.


An excellent suggestion, but perhaps a bridge too far for some of our leading politicians.....



Not your average Sunday League player.
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: neils  
Date:   Sun 24 May 11:01

To be fair, the furlough scheme was put in place extremely quickly out of necessity. It has been a huge expense.

This isn't a loophole, in normal times no one would blink an eye at contracts finishing, the reality also is clubs at championship level would have slashed squads without Corona, all clubs had significant losses, and dwindling crowds...hence the focus on younger players.

The club has no option, we can't waste time on trying to second guess what HMRC rules will mean, and the running down of the scheme

We have one task, to save the club, and have a future- sorry for the ex players, but that's the name of the game, it's not the civil service, being out of contract has to be in players plan B
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: Raymie the Legend  
Date:   Sun 24 May 12:28

Should the PFA Scotland not be stepping in at this time to help released players?
Is Fraser Wishart still heading this up ?




It's bloody tough being a legend
Ron Atkinson - 1983
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: parathletic  
Date:   Sun 24 May 12:38

Topic Originator: Raymie the Legend like | nolike
Date: Sun 24 May 12:28

Should the PFA Scotland not be stepping in at this time to help released players?
Is Fraser Wishart still heading this up ?


That did cross my mind as well.
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: veteraneastender  
Date:   Sun 24 May 12:57

Fraser Wishart is still Scottish PFA Chief Executive.

Limited scope for action in prevailing circumstances where clubs are looking to release players.
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: JTH123  
Date:   Sun 24 May 13:47

Quote:

Raymie the Legend, Sun 24 May 12:28

Should the PFA Scotland not be stepping in at this time to help released players?
Is Fraser Wishart still heading this up ?


I'd go a step further and say that it would be the PFAs duty to have their retained employment lawyer (mentioned by Fraser Wishart last week on the radio) investigate this and put the legal position for temporary retention on furlough to the clubs to make the case for their members.
Of course they may have done the due diligence, come to the same conclusion as our board, then decided to keep schtum and hope others take the risk.

Post Edited (Sun 24 May 15:51)
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: ianbd6  
Date:   Sun 24 May 14:49

The clubs first duty is to look after the players who are still under contract.even in these unusual times a contract is a contract and the club would have to fulfill their obligations. I have no idea how much the players earn but I would guess the ones still under contract are the higher earners. Furlough pays I think £577 per week maximum so any player earning above that the club will have to top it up or they will be in breach of contract and the player could leave on a free transfer. There are also signing on fees which are sometimes payed out over the course of the contract. As I have mentioned I have no clue as to salaries or signing on fees for any of the Pars players so I am guessing. If 10 players are still on the books and are averaging £800 per week the club would have to find about £2200 a week plus any signing on fees which even if each player was due £5000 it is a massive amount if you have no income. You could add agents fees (again not sure if the club pays them or not). Although the club could have extended the released players contracts unless you know the exact amounts the club are liable for you can't make a judgement on whether the release list was justified or not
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: doctordandruff  
Date:   Sun 24 May 16:03

Let's face it, if RM hadn't appeared to be the ring leader for ending the season early and crowning Celtic champions then we would not be getting singled out and Beadling would not be getting interviewed.

I'm not condoning what's happened, but we weren't the first and certainly wont be the last.
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: londonparsfan  
Date:   Sun 24 May 16:43

True.
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: eastendalloapar  
Date:   Sun 24 May 18:29

Before the season eventually starts. I think unfortunately that decent players will be getting signed at minimum wage or slightly better living wage. After all it is better than being unemployed.

matt forsyth
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: RossDAFC  
Date:   Sun 24 May 18:48

I like how mainstream media has reported us as losing 17 'first team players' when in reality only 4/5 were in our first team. QOTS have literally let all but 3 of their first team go and haven't even addressed youth players yet! FWIW the only player worth talking about in their team is Pybus who we are in absolutely no position to even look at. Think we will do well to have a full squad of first team players by the time football starts again.
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: JimMcDAFC  
Date:   Sun 24 May 19:00

I would think quite a lot of players if they find a reasonable job will now be very reluctant to go back to full time football after this, so this might be the way forward for a lot of teams including ourselves.
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: Stanza  
Date:   Sun 24 May 20:25

In recent years a lot of players at every level have been happy to bet on their own future prospects by turning down two-year contracts, confident that they could get a better deal somewhere else when the time came. This situation is likely to give clubs (the ones that survive, anyway) a stronger hand in future contract negotiations.

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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: wee eck  
Date:   Sun 24 May 20:31

I was thinking that myself, Stanza, but clubs might be more reluctant to commit themselves to more than one-year deals in such uncertain times.
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: RhinoPars  
Date:   Sun 24 May 21:10

Sensible posts from Parathletic. Must have been very difficult for RM and I feel for all the players - especially Paton (who showed commitment and drive on the pitch) and Ashcroft (who has served the club well over several seasons). Devine was also much improved last season. Sadly, all are victims of the terrible damage this virus has and is inflicting on world economies. Priority for the board (and us as fans) has to be to try to ensure the club survives the uncertain challenges ahead.
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: Stanza  
Date:   Sun 24 May 22:48

Quote:

wee eck, Sun 24 May 20:31

I was thinking that myself, Stanza, but clubs might be more reluctant to commit themselves to more than one-year deals in such uncertain times.


Very true - but in a buyer's market clubs will be able to offer less money for one year deals.

Or perhaps we'll see more innovation in personal contracts: pay-per-play (football's zero hours contract), or low wages and a high bonus for wins or league position.

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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: GJS93  
Date:   Mon 25 May 08:30

more comments in the Courier, similar to Ross County, the club got professional advice, were made aware of potential issues and weren't willing to take any chances.

https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/sport/football/scottish-championship/1328024/ross-mcarthur-dunfermline-furlough-contracts/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: SAP PAR  
Date:   Mon 25 May 09:57

I doubt if any of those clubs planning short term extensions to players have taken advice from HMRC.

What if HMRC are monitoring all clubs that are extending contracts via the furlough scheme to see if any of those furloughed players are subsequently released.

What if they plan to pursue those clubs to recoup all monies they had previously paid those players under the scheme since the start.

What if this was the advice given to RM. 😉
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: veteraneastender  
Date:   Mon 25 May 10:58

"more comments in the Courier, similar to Ross County, the club got professional advice, were made aware of potential issues and weren't willing to take any chances."

Without knowing the source of the advice that Ross McArthur accepted it's impossible to make much of a judgement.

It's reasonable to assume that the PFA and other clubs who have not followed this line of advice have sought similar expert opinions.

I'll bet that several chairman who opted to go differently will have been in contact with RMcA to ask what grounds his action was based on, in case they compromise their own club's position.
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: Parahandy  
Date:   Mon 25 May 11:24

You can easily get advice justifying either course of action - there is no one true path here
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: Mr Mac  
Date:   Mon 25 May 11:48

Quote:

veteraneastender, Mon 25 May 10:58

"more comments in the Courier, similar to Ross County, the club got professional advice, were made aware of potential issues and weren't willing to take any chances."

Without knowing the source of the advice that Ross McArthur accepted it's impossible to make much of a judgement.

It's reasonable to assume that the PFA and other clubs who have not followed this line of advice have sought similar expert opinions.

I'll bet that several chairman who opted to go differently will have been in contact with RMcA to ask what grounds his action was based on, in case they compromise their own club's position.


If the club are stating they took advice I suggest it was likely professional, insured, advice. To go against this advice would be foolish; at least with professional, insured, advice there is the ability to seek financial redress if it is incorrect.... rather than exposing the club (and directors?) to penalty.

If there was no risk to the club, and we had the finances I'm sure these players would have been extended as long as possible.



Post Edited (Mon 25 May 11:48)
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: DA-go Par Adonis  
Date:   Mon 25 May 11:52

"Without knowing the source of the advice that Ross McArthur accepted it's impossible to make much of a judgement."

I'm guessing one of the two sources is a former manager and partner in the tax department of the 4th biggest accountancy firm in the world.

Maybe not as qualified as the singing wife of a former footballer, but you play with the hand you're dealt.



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I love it when we don't sell Kevin Nisbet,
He's gonna score in every game 'til Christmas,
And every touch is goal la la la, it's goal la la la,


Post Edited (Mon 25 May 13:08)
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: veteraneastender  
Date:   Mon 25 May 13:02

Maybe - makes you wonder where the PFA got their intelligence from in that case.
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: Mr Mac  
Date:   Mon 25 May 13:13

Quote:

veteraneastender, Mon 25 May 13:02

Maybe - makes you wonder where the PFA got their intelligence from in that case.


It doesn't matter; unless the source of the PFA Scotland advice (and their insurer will provide written confirmation) is prepared to indemnify all 42 clubs against action by HMRC.

Our club seeking professional advice from two sources would indicate both concur; otherwise we would probably have sought a third opinion to gain clarity.

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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: DA-go Par Adonis  
Date:   Mon 25 May 13:17

From someone whose answer fitted the narrative they want, I'd guess.

Thing is, they might be proven right. HMRC might not come after clubs who extend contracts, continue to furlough staff and then ditch them as soon as the scheme stops. No-one's given our board the advice that we definitely couldn't extend the 17 players' contracts until the end of June - and be free from any redress. Problem DAFC and other clubs have is that you cannot guarantee that it won't happen.

This would leave us with the bill for 17 players' wages, NI and pension contributions for June and possibly interest and penalties. If you're a director of the club and meant to be running it for the good of the local community, you can't play Russian roulette and hope that HMRC will be in a generous mood on the day that the government start to find the money for the black hole in the country's finances.



----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I love it when we don't sell Kevin Nisbet,
He's gonna score in every game 'til Christmas,
And every touch is goal la la la, it's goal la la la,


Post Edited (Mon 25 May 14:08)
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: veteraneastender  
Date:   Mon 25 May 13:34

"No-one's given our board the advice that we definitely couldn't extend the 17 player's contracts until the end of June - and be free from any redress. Problem DAFC and other clubs have is that you cannot guarantee that it won't happen."

That is the key point.

When in doubt, caution must prevail.
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: JTH123  
Date:   Mon 25 May 13:38

Like I said before, if the PFA had found sound legal advice that they could shout from the rooftops about, they would have done it.
The only thing that they've said is that their members are suffering because of this (which they clearly are). For this reason it's hard not to conclude that the risk was too great.

Post Edited (Mon 25 May 13:46)
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: Number Eleven  
Date:   Mon 25 May 16:52

This is the time of year when we all remember that this game we all love is also the players livelihood.

The impact of being released is going to be much harder due to the crisis and it must've been very difficult for the board to decide what to do knowing the out of contract players will find it virtually impossible to get a new contract until there is certainty about when football will resume. My thoughts are with the players and their families I thank them for their service and wish them well for the future.

I'm glad that the Chairman has now explained that the decision was based on professional advice received and I hope the club will continue to be clear in its communication with the fans as we will all need to pull together to get through these uncertain times.


DA are the number one
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: jake89  
Date:   Mon 25 May 17:41

The Pars could be argued as being overly cautious but you have to be when we don't have deep pockets to delve into.

Whilst it's great the likes of Amy MacDonald feels so sure it'll be fine, we sought professional advice (presumably from someone with a financial background rather than a creative one) and they advised to steer clear. Okay, they may be being risk averse, but if it's the option between releasing 17 players, many of whom would have been released anyway, or potentially bankrupting the club...there's only one option.
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: neils  
Date:   Mon 25 May 18:02

I don't see what the risk is, if there is a lack of clarity, it's a given- we avoid.

We will need every penny, the last thing we will need is an unwelcome bill for players who would be long gone.

I liked a lot of these players, but if Ashcroft turned down an extension (IF) that leaves Paton (who I liked) who might have been gone anyway.

Bad for the players, but if you play for a Championship club, the fact it will end with no other income has to be a serious consideration.
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: parathletic  
Date:   Mon 25 May 18:15

There have been well over 2 million new Universal Credit claims since this pandemic began.Many of these individuals were in exactly the same scenario as these released players only difference being they are in a different profession-why should they be treated any differently?

Does in not also set a precedent that other industries could look at and adopt the same approach? If the airlines for example just furloughed everybody until the end of the scheme and paid them off anyway on its conclusion it would have a huge impact.Would that just have been frowned upon or would there have been repercussions?

Good decision by the club to remove ourselves from having to get involved in that debate in future.
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: Bovril Man  
Date:   Tue 26 May 04:10

For me, the role of the PFA in this has been shocking, and I specifically single out Fraser Wishart’s performance as Chief Exec.

For years he has completely underwhelmed me whenever he’s appeared in the media...always looking to pick a stooshie when conciliation was needed; using language more suited to a party that held all the cards (which the players rarely did), and most recently having a whinge about not being involved / consulted enough in the Reconstruction talks that have been taking place, when it sounded like he was simply waiting for the SPFL limo to come to his house and pick him up to attend meetings...no proactivity or initiative whatsoever.

The current situation is just another case in point. Where we, and many other clubs, have found ourselves in recent days is a decision-point that ways always going to be arrived at since Furlough was introduced. It is not a ‘surprise’. The PFA have had 2 months at least to PROACTIVELY get HMRC in a meeting to lay out the ‘out-of-contract’ scenario, and seek assurances that the temporary contract extension option would not trigger retrograde consequences for the clubs.

They could have secured this on behalf of its members - the players - but didn’t. There could have been clear, consistent guidance for ALL clubs...but there isn’t. Early negative feedback from the HMRC could have been escalated to the politicians to secure a more favourable position for players...but that needs a bit of time to push through. As much as I dislike what our Club has done, if they have not been able to secure certainty about future liability, their hand was forced. And I feel it all could have been avoided if Fraser Wishart had been doing his job properly. Time for a change at the top of the SPFA, I feel...though that’s too late for hundreds of players today.
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: DA-go Par Adonis  
Date:   Tue 26 May 07:30

To be fair, HMRC have particularly vague guidance on this. It's probably designed to discourage companies from extending fixed term contracts just to milk the furlough system without being completely restrictive - as there will be cases where it's completely legit.

My inkling would be that they'll not chase the clubs that exploit it as there won't be that many and it wouldn't be cost effective to take them to court. If I was running DAFC, I don't think I'd take the chance either though.

To be fair to the board, I think they dislike what they've done too. However, if we have a club at the end of this - when we can all return to EEP - I think the vast majority of fans will accept the actions as being necessary. Especially as some clubs might not be so lucky.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I love it when we don't sell Kevin Nisbet,
He's gonna score in every game 'til Christmas,
And every touch is goal la la la, it's goal la la la,
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: parsmad68  
Date:   Tue 26 May 08:56

Quote:

Bovril Man, Tue 26 May 04:10

For me, the role of the PFA in this has been shocking, and I specifically single out Fraser Wishart’s performance as Chief Exec.

For years he has completely underwhelmed me whenever he’s appeared in the media...always looking to pick a stooshie when conciliation was needed; using language more suited to a party that held all the cards (which the players rarely did), and most recently having a whinge about not being involved / consulted enough in the Reconstruction talks that have been taking place, when it sounded like he was simply waiting for the SPFL limo to come to his house and pick him up to attend meetings...no proactivity or initiative whatsoever.

The current situation is just another case in point. Where we, and many other clubs, have found ourselves in recent days is a decision-point that ways always going to be arrived at since Furlough was introduced. It is not a ‘surprise’. The PFA have had 2 months at least to PROACTIVELY get HMRC in a meeting to lay out the ‘out-of-contract’ scenario, and seek assurances that the temporary contract extension option would not trigger retrograde consequences for the clubs.

They could have secured this on behalf of its members - the players - but didn’t. There could have been clear, consistent guidance for ALL clubs...but there isn’t. Early negative feedback from the HMRC could have been escalated to the politicians to secure a more favourable position for players...but that needs a bit of time to push through. As much as I dislike what our Club has done, if they have not been able to secure certainty about future liability, their hand was forced. And I feel it all could have been avoided if Fraser Wishart had been doing his job properly. Time for a change at the top of the SPFA, I feel...though that’s too late for hundreds of players today.



Or as someone else posted, the same conclusion was derived from PFA discussions.
I have known Fraser for years and he is intelligent, articulate and hard working. The questions are definitely valid, I don’t deny. but we should listen to the players and what remit that the PFA has in any governmental discussions and the structure of governance before laying blame.

Here are also some assumptions:
- Players will be available when football does return.
- Players will accept full time contracts when football returns.
- Contract status of current employees. This will be a major concern to our top asset who will be on a win bonus and likely a scoring bonus. He will be losing a fortune also outside of playing at a Premiership club (assuming they start back earlier than Championship) these bonus packages make up a hefty sum of the final salary. We could see him go cut price.
- Do club owners wish to return to football. Jim McInally has already discussed mothballing without fans. IMO he is correct. How does this affect what happens to current players.

It is difficult to react to the discussions as there are many aspects to what may or may not happen, but in the case of the players who are out of contract with nowhere to go then they will know where they wish to point the finger of blame. The obvious current answer is the club.
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks  
Date:   Tue 26 May 09:07

I'd imagine it would be very difficult for HMRC to prove that any club furloughed players that they had no intention of keeping on. Even if clubs do then subsequently do not keep players on that they have furloughed once the scheme has eneded it would be easy to argue that it down to the economic situation having changed. There are going to be thousands made unemployed once the scheme ends, especially in the hospitality sector, because once the government support ceases a lot of companies aren't going to have the cash reserves or confidence to keep staff on through the recession.
Ultimately all businesses have to make financial decisions and even staff on furlough still come with a cost.

Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: JTH123  
Date:   Tue 26 May 12:50

Maybe so TOWK but HMRC dont have to prove things. We can all see the potential liability when the contract ends and furlough continues or the contract is extended to the end of furlough then no further. I get that companies will unfortunately have to let furloughed people on normal employment contracts go once the furlough scheme finishes but extending a fixed term contract by a couple of months just to cover the furlough could leave us exposed.

Post Edited (Tue 26 May 12:51)
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: DA-go Par Adonis  
Date:   Tue 26 May 14:13

"I'd imagine it would be very difficult for HMRC to prove that any club furloughed players that they had no intention of keeping on"

They might point to a pattern though if, for example, a club extends the contract of 17 players by a month or two, doesn't top up their wage by the remaining 20% as they have been doing (and continue to do with the players still under contract) and then bin all the 17 when the furlough scheme stops/changes.



----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I love it when we don't sell Kevin Nisbet,
He's gonna score in every game 'til Christmas,
And every touch is goal la la la, it's goal la la la,


Post Edited (Tue 26 May 14:14)
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: Lambo1885  
Date:   Tue 26 May 14:55

Or they could check clubs press releases. From Courier on 24/5;

"But chairman Bill Clark has signed up all of his stars until June 30, even those who may not be in manager John McGlynn’s plans for next term in the Championship.

While Raith sources acknowledge that it only represents an extra three weeks of salary for most players – the standard expiry date for Rovers contracts is June 10 – it is hoped the decision will provide players with a some extra stability and time to weigh up their options."
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: da_no_1  
Date:   Tue 26 May 15:31

Quote:

Lambo1885, Tue 26 May 14:55

Or they could check clubs press releases. From Courier on 24/5;

"But chairman Bill Clark has signed up all of his stars until June 30, even those who may not be in manager John McGlynn’s plans for next term in the Championship.

While Raith sources acknowledge that it only represents an extra three weeks of salary for most players – the standard expiry date for Rovers contracts is June 10 – it is hoped the decision will provide players with a some extra stability and time to weigh up their options."


That's blatantly taking the p1ss is it not?

"Some days will stay a 1000 years, some pass like the flash of a spark"
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: Lambo1885  
Date:   Tue 26 May 15:40

Keeps Amy MacDonald happy tho.......
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: DA-go Par Adonis  
Date:   Tue 26 May 16:23

Maybe she'll sign and post-date the cheque to HMRC for the Rovers - just in case?

It would surely be the right thing for her to do.

I'm struggling to see why the Rovers would commit that to print? "We're going to make a bunch of players redundant but we're going to get the tax payer to pay for their wages in the meantime."

Why not just say that they need to keep all options open at this tricky time in the hope that, by the end of June, the situation with how and when the Championship will resume might be a little clearer?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I love it when we don't sell Kevin Nisbet,
He's gonna score in every game 'til Christmas,
And every touch is goal la la la, it's goal la la la,
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: AdamAntsParsStripe  
Date:   Tue 26 May 16:35

Quote:

da_no_1, Tue 26 May 15:31

Quote:

Lambo1885, Tue 26 May 14:55

Or they could check clubs press releases. From Courier on 24/5;

"But chairman Bill Clark has signed up all of his stars until June 30, even those who may not be in manager John McGlynn’s plans for next term in the Championship.

While Raith sources acknowledge that it only represents an extra three weeks of salary for most players – the standard expiry date for Rovers contracts is June 10 – it is hoped the decision will provide players with a some extra stability and time to weigh up their options."


That's blatantly taking the p1ss is it not?


Alternatively, it might be Raith not wanting to throw players on the scrapheap without a wage through no fault of their own?

If you only turn up to moan then do it elsewhere
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: DA-go Par Adonis  
Date:   Tue 26 May 16:43

Clearly, and that's admirable.

They're admitting, out loud, to abusing the system that all tax payers are going to end up paying for though.

They should have, at least, spun it to make it look like something other than that.

Whether that's ethical or not is another matter, but they're leaving themselves pretty open to HMRC chapping at their door.

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I love it when we don't sell Kevin Nisbet,
He's gonna score in every game 'til Christmas,
And every touch is goal la la la, it's goal la la la,
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: jake89  
Date:   Tue 26 May 17:08

Own goal by the wee team. Should have said that in normal circumstances they would be considering renewals so have done so whilst they monitor the situation. Saying "we've extended them to take advantage of furlough" is basically saying "we're abusing the system."
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: parathletic  
Date:   Tue 26 May 17:08

1200 redundancies at McLaren today.Presumably those who think we are in the wrong think they should also have just been furloughed and paid off at the end of the scheme?
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: eastendalloapar  
Date:   Tue 26 May 18:32

I bet the 1200 would have been on far more than our players. Perhaps their sales have dropped of a cliff. Decent car to drive, but build quality is suspect. IMOP.

matt forsyth
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: Raymie the Legend  
Date:   Tue 26 May 19:41

Quote:

jake89, Tue 26 May 17:08

Own goal by the wee team. Should have said that in normal circumstances they would be considering renewals so have done so whilst they monitor the situation. Saying "we've extended them to take advantage of furlough" is basically saying "we're abusing the system."


Bang on. Why can’t some people see that ?
Let’s not hear them complain when austerity measures are introduced




It's bloody tough being a legend
Ron Atkinson - 1983


Post Edited (Tue 26 May 22:09)
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: neils  
Date:   Tue 26 May 19:49

It's not just austerity, many industries (including football) will want government help for the next two years, no one will do this if the companies just demand.

Airplanes will not be built for at least 3 years, airlines will not be flying the same.

Good time to finally shut the ghost airport in Ayr for example.
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: red-star-par  
Date:   Tue 26 May 19:57

The Rovers have potentially made a mistake with that statement, it invites issues. They could have just said they were considering their options to see if they could keep them on
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: jake89  
Date:   Tue 26 May 20:39

Quote:

neils, Tue 26 May 19:49

It's not just austerity, many industries (including football) will want government help for the next two years, no one will do this if the companies just demand.

Airplanes will not be built for at least 3 years, airlines will not be flying the same.

Good time to finally shut the ghost airport in Ayr for example.


Be a shame to see Prestwick go tbh. I've never understood why it's not pushed more for private use and bringing in supplies rather than humans.
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: Sliema Par  
Date:   Thu 28 May 17:10

There is a mighty strong hint, on Page 55 of "The Dunfermline Press" today, that once the club has some clarity,Stevie Crawford will have the option to table offers to the players the club has reluctantly released.

The crucial meeting at the Scottish Parliament is tomorrow.
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: Parahandy  
Date:   Sat 30 May 12:53

How can their be players reluctantly released? Why not keep them on furlough to 31 July?
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: dd23  
Date:   Sat 30 May 15:18

Because the club wanted to keep them but financially they couldn't safely do that. Simple really, the ins and outs have already been discussed.
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: red-star-par  
Date:   Sat 30 May 16:40

Quote:

dd23, Sat 30 May 15:18

Because the club wanted to keep them but financially they couldn't safely do that. Simple really, the ins and outs have already been discussed.


Surely if the club wanted to keep certain players, they could have placed those players on furlough and released the rest. The issue appeared to be that they didn't want to abuse the system by continuing to furlough staff who they had no intention of offering a deal to, and then have the potential that they would have to pay back the wages. I'm sure if proof was needed they probably have documentation pre dating the Coronavirus crisis, which would show who they were considering for new deals
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: Parahandy  
Date:   Sat 30 May 17:13

How could they not have them furloughed at 80% up to the limit allowed if they want to sign them back on again. Clearly they would not be abusing the system as they wanted to keep those players on after furlough period given they are looking to resign them!
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: da_no_1  
Date:   Sat 30 May 17:26

Quote:

Parahandy, Sat 30 May 17:13

How could they not have them furloughed at 80% up to the limit allowed if they want to sign them back on again. Clearly they would not be abusing the system as they wanted to keep those players on after furlough period given they are looking to resign them!


Where have you been the last week? The moon?

"Some days will stay a 1000 years, some pass like the flash of a spark"
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: neils  
Date:   Sat 30 May 17:45

Seems like this thread is done, folks aren't even following any news before commenting.

It's a braw day, big pot of tea in the garden, nothing happens until 31st
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: Parahandy  
Date:   Sat 30 May 18:36

Not been on the moon just properly understand the system and the inconsistency of saying you can’t furlough players that you wanted to retain in the first place
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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: widtink  
Date:   Sat 30 May 19:09

The club took advice from 2 separate sources... from what I've read.... Then decided on a course of action to follow.
Trust them... They have the best interests of the club in mind.



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 Re: Player update
Topic Originator: wee eck  
Date:   Sat 30 May 19:47

No one knows for sure when the Championship will recommence or for how long the club will be without any significant income. As the furlough system is wound down employers will be required to make a bigger contribution to employees' wages, NI, pension contributions etc. There was also a potential liability if the club was deemed to be exploiting the system. With so many unknowns the club had to take the course of action which would best protect the finances of the club.
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