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 Crowds return in NZ
Topic Originator: OzPar  
Date:   Sun 14 Jun 11:37

There was an impressive 43,000 crowd at a super rugby match in Auckland today.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-06-14/new-zealand-hosts-big-crowds-as-super-rugby-aotearoa-returns/12353918

Perhaps there is hope for us all yet!

:)
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 Re: Crowds return in NZ
Topic Originator: neils  
Date:   Sun 14 Jun 13:37

We couldn't fit 43000 inside EEP!
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 Re: Crowds return in NZ
Topic Originator: Par  
Date:   Sun 14 Jun 14:47

Impressed with the way the NZ government have dealt with the virus, the PM seems to be at one with the people.
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 Re: Crowds return in NZ
Topic Originator: veteraneastender  
Date:   Sun 14 Jun 16:40

What % of the population is 43 K ?
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 Re: Crowds return in NZ
Topic Originator: neils  
Date:   Sun 14 Jun 16:43

Auckland is a big city over 1.5 M, impressed NZ are back up and running, I was there for a year about 30 years ago, what a country!
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 Re: Crowds return in NZ
Topic Originator: The Toun Clock  
Date:   Sun 14 Jun 20:10

I keep hearing we won't be back until early 2021 etc. Is this purely down to how strict and quick their lockdown was compared to the UK?
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 Re: Crowds return in NZ
Topic Originator: Townsvillepar  
Date:   Sun 14 Jun 20:39

Well done to New Zealand. They have a brilliant Prime Minister. Crowds are set to return in Australia although football over here is in a dire situation, with loss of sponsors etc and falling behind the other three football codes.
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 Re: Crowds return in NZ
Topic Originator: EEP  
Date:   Sun 14 Jun 22:41

They have a Prime Minister that looks after the NZ Country......... look at what we have.. the bellend can’t even get a haircu!😳👌👍
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 Re: Crowds return in NZ
Topic Originator: da_no_1  
Date:   Mon 15 Jun 00:33

Quote:

EEP, Sun 14 Jun 22:41

They have a Prime Minister that looks after the NZ Country......... look at what we have.. the bellend can’t even get a haircu!😳👌👍


Thats a bit harsh. She's doing a grand job.....

"Some days will stay a 1000 years, some pass like the flash of a spark"
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 Re: Crowds return in NZ
Topic Originator: GG741  
Date:   Mon 15 Jun 02:30

That crowd of 43,000 is a lot of people. Well done to NZ for getting to that stage where that many people feel safe enough to be in that type of environment.

To be honest, I was a little spooked by how many were in my local supermarket at the weekend, and decided to just come back later when the numbers had reduced. It would have been under the recommended number, but it just felt too crowded.
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 Re: Crowds return in NZ
Topic Originator: OzPar  
Date:   Mon 15 Jun 08:26

I have always been impressed by the Kiwis. As a people, they seem to have a collective sense of duty and responsibility; in my experience, they are trustworthy and tend to stick by the rules. Little surprise then that they have come through the Covid-19 crisis so well.

Anyone who has seen first hand the All Blacks perform the Haka knows exactly what teamwork and fair-play mean to them. These qualities are the foundation of their being and that is why they managed to rebuild after the Christchurch earthquake, overcame as a nation the evil of the mosque massacre and so effectively have beaten the coronavirus.
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 Re: Crowds return in NZ
Topic Originator: moviescot  
Date:   Mon 15 Jun 08:34

Quote:

EEP, Sun 14 Jun 22:41

They have a Prime Minister that looks after the NZ Country......... look at what we have.. the bellend can’t even get a haircu!😳👌👍


Yeah she looks after her country as long as you manage to be born.

NZ PM rushes world’s most extreme abortion legislation into law while country distracted with pandemic
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 Re: Crowds return in NZ
Topic Originator: BoAPar  
Date:   Mon 15 Jun 09:18

"NZ PM rushes world’s most extreme abortion legislation into law while country distracted with pandemic"

You mean the not very extreme abortion legislation that had its first reading in parliament in August 2019, causing a number of Pro-life/Pro-choice demonstrations?

The legislation that they actively campaigned to change in the 2017 election?

Yup, they sneaked that past us...


"Is this purely down to how strict and quick their lockdown was compared to the UK?"

Basically yes. NZ was on a knife edge, but thankfully we fell the right way - a mix of good management and good luck.

Cases in NZ were starting to ramp up exponentially, so we were given 48 hours notice that the country would close completely (except supermarkets, pharmacies and petrol stations).

We then had a further 6 weeks of slowly reopening, until last Tuesday when all domestic restrictions were lifted.

43k is a massive crowd for domestic rugby in NZ these days - people were pretty excited to get live sport back!
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 Re: Crowds return in NZ
Topic Originator: oapar  
Date:   Mon 15 Jun 09:52

New Zealand with a slightly smaller population than Scotland have recorded only 22 deaths, Scotland total stands over 4000. Where have we failed?
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 Re: Crowds return in NZ
Topic Originator: moviescot  
Date:   Mon 15 Jun 09:54

Quote:

BoAPar, Mon 15 Jun 09:18

"NZ PM rushes world’s most extreme abortion legislation into law while country distracted with pandemic"

You mean the not very extreme abortion legislation that had its first reading in parliament in August 2019, causing a number of Pro-life/Pro-choice demonstrations?

The legislation that they actively campaigned to change in the 2017 election?

Yup, they sneaked that past us...


"Is this purely down to how strict and quick their lockdown was compared to the UK?"

Basically yes. NZ was on a knife edge, but thankfully we fell the right way - a mix of good management and good luck.

Cases in NZ were starting to ramp up exponentially, so we were given 48 hours notice that the country would close completely (except supermarkets, pharmacies and petrol stations).

We then had a further 6 weeks of slowly reopening, until last Tuesday when all domestic restrictions were lifted.

43k is a massive crowd for domestic rugby in NZ these days - people were pretty excited to get live sport back!


Yes this one which has done very extreme abortion options. Including abortion up until birth time - is that even abortion? It's that not just downright killing.

Not very popular either.

Abortion will now be available on-demand, for any reason, up to birth

Sex-selective abortion will be legalised

The current 20 week limit for disability-selective abortion will be scrapped and abortion will be available up to birth for disabilities including cleft lip, club foot and Down syndrome

There will be no requirement that a doctor must be involved with providing an abortion

There will be no legal requirement that babies born alive after a ‘failed’ abortion are given medical support

There will be no legal requirement that pain relief be given to babies being aborted between 20 weeks and birth

There will be no legal restrictions on controversial methods of abortion such as intact dilation and extraction abortions (also knows as partial-birth abortions)

Polling shows that the new law is strongly opposed by the public in New Zealand and in particular by women, with only 2% of women supporting abortion being available on-demand up to birth, 93% of women opposing sex-selective abortion being legal and 94% of women supporting the current legal standards for abortion providers and premises.
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 Re: Crowds return in NZ
Topic Originator: BoAPar  
Date:   Mon 15 Jun 10:52

I'm keen to see your well considered and researched sources that you used to come up with that... Especially the polling showing how unpopular it is in New Zealand (hint: it's not).

Also keen to see evidence that abortion is available "on-demand up until birth" and that "there will be no requirement that a doctor must be involved with providing an abortion". (Hint: will be tricky, because it's not true).

I won't bore everyone else with all the details, but a few highlights...

It went through 3 parliamentary votes (over 7 months). It received a majority each time.

It was a conscience vote (not whipped by the government), so clearly MP's felt confident that they were representing the views of the people (including some who said they were opposed, but accepted it was the will of their constituents).

Also, lots of mentions of "legalising" in there, but failing to mention it's because the whole point of the legislation was legalisation - abortion was a crime (under the crimes act) until march this year. The legislation was passed to make it a health issue.

But it hasn't been made easier to have an abortion after 20 weeks. It's actually been made harder.

Previously, women had to undergo a test by two medical practitioners who decided if the pregnancy would put the women in physical or mental danger, and allow her to proceed with the abortion.

The legislation would still require a test for women who are more than 20 weeks pregnant. And that test has now been strengthened, meaning two doctors will have to agree an abortion is the right decision.

But that won't be necessary for many women, because just 0.5 percent of abortions take place after 20 weeks, usually due to extreme complications. It's a serious procedure that takes place in a hospital.

www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2020/03/abortion-no-longer-a-crime-in-new-zealand-as-law-change-passes-final-reading-in-parliament.html

https://thespinoff.co.nz/politics/19-03-2020/i-trust-women-i-trust-women-national-mp-amy-adams-speaks-on-abortion/ (FYI: Amy Adams is one of the leading figures in the opposition party).

https://www.health.govt.nz/our-work/regulation-health-and-disability-system/abortion-legislation-information-health-practitioners

--------------------------------------------------


Post Edited (Mon 15 Jun 10:55)
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 Re: Crowds return in NZ
Topic Originator: OzPar  
Date:   Mon 15 Jun 11:24

Well done, BoAPar.

Looks like he lifted his "facts" from a Right to Life website...
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 Re: Crowds return in NZ
Topic Originator: moviescot  
Date:   Mon 15 Jun 21:23

New Zealand Eases Abortion Restrictions

The change was welcomed by abortion rights advocates, but even in that camp some wondered if lawmakers had gone too far.

Lawmakers voted on Wednesday to liberalize New Zealand’s abortion law and allow unrestricted access during the first half of pregnancy, ending the country’s status as one of the few wealthy nations to limit the grounds for abortion during that period.

Members of Parliament also greatly loosened restrictions on abortions in the latter half of pregnancy, with language that opponents say amounts to no meaningful limitations until the moment of birth.

Lawmakers voted 68 to 51 to approve the bill, which would take effect a day after receiving assent from the governor-general, Queen Elizabeth II’s representative in New Zealand, which is considered a formality.

The issue cut across some of the lines that usually divide the liberal Labour Party, which leads the governing coalition, and the conservative National Party, the main opposition. Public opinion surveys show that most New Zealanders favor liberalizing the law, but even some lawmakers in that camp said lawmakers went too far.

The new law will allow a woman to obtain an abortion on demand up to 20 weeks into a pregnancy. Beyond that point, abortion would be legal only “if the health practitioner reasonably believes that the abortion is clinically appropriate in the circumstances.”

But the bill does not say what counts as appropriate. It states only that the practitioner must consult with at least one other colleague, and take into account “all relevant legal, professional and ethical standards,” the woman’s physical and mental health and “overall well-being,” and the age of the fetus.

Agnes Loheni, a National Party member of Parliament who opposed the bill, said: “It will allow for abortion up to the moment of birth. It is a broad, ill-defined, vague section with no regard to the unborn child.”

Simeon Brown, another National Party lawmaker, said the new law would allow abortion in cases when a fetus could survive outside the womb, or for sex selection. And he complained that the bill’s supporters dismissed any objections as religiously based, and denigrated those that were.

“I’m opposed to this bill not because of the tenets of any religion but because of scientific, philosophical and ethical principles,” he said.

Advocates of the bill argued that neither women nor their health care providers would pursue late-term abortions lightly.

The law does not prohibit abortion for the purpose of sex selection, but states that Parliament is opposed to the practice, and directs the government to study the issue and report back on it within five years.

The vote in Parliament came after a failed attempt to hold a national referendum on the issue. It culminated years of political battles over attempts to loosen the law.

Copyright New York Times.
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 Re: Crowds return in NZ
Topic Originator: aaaaaaaaaargh  
Date:   Mon 15 Jun 22:25

Back on topic, I don't want to sound like I am supporting the government but we can't compare the UK with New Zealand.

NZ have done really well dealing with the virus, but they started from a very different place. NZ locked down at a very early stage where the spread of the virus was very limited and no deaths had occurred. The UK could have done something similar, but that would have meant locking down at the end of February or maybe the first few days of March. I don't think anyone was calling for that then. That would have been even earlier than Lombardy.
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 Re: Crowds return in NZ
Topic Originator: BoAPar  
Date:   Mon 15 Jun 23:08

"Public opinion surveys show that most New Zealanders favor liberalizing the law, but even some lawmakers in that camp said lawmakers went too far."

The new law will allow a woman to obtain an abortion on demand up to 20 weeks into a pregnancy. Beyond that point, abortion would be legal only “if the health practitioner reasonably believes that the abortion is clinically appropriate in the circumstances.”

I thought you said polling shows that the change was strongly opposed in New Zealand?

And that abortion was freely available for any reason until birth?

The NYT article pretty much confirms everything I've already said (including that it was opposed by some in government, as it was a conscience vote).

==

"NZ have done really well dealing with the virus, but they started from a very different place. NZ locked down at a very early stage where the spread of the virus was very limited and no deaths had occurred"

NZ locked down because we were about to lose control of the virus, and wanted to protect the health system and implement a proper TTI system. Another few days and we would have been in real trouble.

The key differences with the UK are that herd immunity was never considered (because it was clearly a stupid idea at the outset) and that the NZ government accepted criticism from epidemic specialists early on, got them on board and let them call the shots.

New Zealand also made the most of its soft power (aka being seen as an international good guy), to pull in favours on getting PPE, respirators etc. The UK can't call on that because it is seen as an unreliable basket case post-Brexit (which is an incredible state of affairs).

From afar, the UK government have botched this horribly, and the Scottish government hasn't done much better (although not entirely their own fault).
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 Re: Crowds return in NZ
Topic Originator: Stanza  
Date:   Mon 15 Jun 23:13

Quote:

aaaaaaaaaargh, Mon 15 Jun 22:25

NZ have done really well dealing with the virus, but they started from a very different place. NZ locked down at a very early stage where the spread of the virus was very limited and no deaths had occurred. The UK could have done something similar, but that would have meant locking down at the end of February or maybe the first few days of March. I don't think anyone was calling for that then. That would have been even earlier than Lombardy.


Surely that shows what a good call the NZ Government made - and if other countries had made similar brave decisions the death toll would have been lower.

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 Re: Crowds return in NZ
Topic Originator: aaaaaaaaaargh  
Date:   Mon 15 Jun 23:40

Yes, and not necessarily.

NZ made a very good call, but it was much easier to do once Italy, Spain, France, Belgium, and other EU countries had already taken the lead.

I think the UK screwed up in reacting too slowly, but we are probably only talking about a few days. Unfortunately those few days, plus the strange idea to temporarily abandon testing, is probably why the UK is coming out of lockdown so slowly.
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