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 Goal Difference v Goal Average
Topic Originator: GG Riva  
Date:   Wed 24 Jun 08:25

Watching a BBC rerun of Hibs crushing 7-0 win over Hearts in the 1973 New Year derby, I was astonished to hear the commentator say that the win would put Hibs top on GD.

Had Scotland adopted GD in place of GA as long ago as that? A quick Google brought up this interesting article:-

<https://www.soccerattic.com/article/goal-difference-arrives-did-it-make-a-difference/#:~:text=When%20the%20English%20Football%20League,first%20saw%20the%20change%20over.>



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 Re: Goal Difference v Goal Average
Topic Originator: veteraneastender  
Date:   Wed 24 Jun 08:33

Was it not quite soon after season 1964-65 when Killie won the league at Tynecastle beating Hearts 2-0 on GA ?

Wrong it was 1971-72.



Post Edited (Wed 24 Jun 08:35)
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 Re: Goal Difference v Goal Average
Topic Originator: sammer  
Date:   Wed 24 Jun 09:59

Why Goal Average ever existed in the first place is hard to understand. It is a more complicated way to split teams level on points and it favours defensive football as well.

Two Scottish League Championships were decided by GA.
In 1953 Hibs (93-51) were one goal better than Rangers (80-39) but lost out on GA. Hibs were denied a third successive championship as a result and have not won a title since.

In 1965 Hearts (90-49) had a 10 goal advantage over Kilmarnock (62-33) but lost out on GA. Hearts went into decline after missing out so narrowly and have not won the title since.

Hearts were to the fore in asking for system to be changed but it came back to haunt them. In 1986 they lost the title on a GD of 3, whereas they would have won it under the old system of GA.
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 Re: Goal Difference v Goal Average
Topic Originator: DA-go Par Adonis  
Date:   Wed 24 Jun 10:18

Forgive my ignorance, but is goal average just goals scored divided by goals conceded?

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 Re: Goal Difference v Goal Average
Topic Originator: wee eck  
Date:   Wed 24 Jun 10:45

Yes.
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 Re: Goal Difference v Goal Average
Topic Originator: veteraneastender  
Date:   Wed 24 Jun 15:36

Didn’t Hearts lose a whean of goals at Dundee (7-0 ?) when they were pipped at the post by Killie that season ?

As Sammer correctly points out GA favours defensive football and Killie were particularly tight at that back then.

Willie Waddell was not too long back from studying Herrera’s tactics along with Big Jock.
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 Re: Goal Difference v Goal Average
Topic Originator: GG Riva  
Date:   Wed 24 Jun 16:31

Quote:

veteraneastender, Wed 24 Jun 15:36

Didn’t Hearts lose a whean of goals at Dundee (7-0 ?) when they were pipped at the post by Killie that season ?

As Sammer correctly points out GA favours defensive football and Killie were particularly tight at that back then.

Willie Waddell was not too long back from studying Herrera’s tactics along with Big Jock.


Not quite, VEE. Hearts lost 1-7, AT HOME, to Dundee, amazingly. That didn't do their GA much good but it was somewhat tempered by the fact that Dundee also beat the eventual champions 4-1 at Rugby Park. We did relatively well to draw 3-3 with Dundee at EEP. I think it was Eric Martin's first game for the Pars. Herriot was injured or suspended. It was also the only point we picked up in 4 games v the Dundee clubs, which was perhaps more significant than the oft quoted home game v St Johnstone.

For the record, Dundee finished 6th in 65, below Rangers in 5th but above Celtic who were 8th. I asked Roy Barry about that home mauling by Dundee and he told me emphatically that he never played in any game in which his team lost by that score. I checked. He didn't play that day.



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 Re: Goal Difference v Goal Average
Topic Originator: Grant  
Date:   Wed 24 Jun 16:48

I've heard allot about that 65 season, agonisingly close. Alex Ferguson missing a good chance is often repeated with sad tones...

What was our GA?
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 Re: Goal Difference v Goal Average
Topic Originator: sammer  
Date:   Wed 24 Jun 17:30

What was so frustrating in 1964/65 was that with one more point we would have won the title on EITHER GA or GD.

Kilmarnock: 50 pts (GD +29; GA 1.87)
Hearts 50 pts (GD +39; GA 1.83)
Dunfermline 49 pts (GD +47; GA 2.3)
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 Re: Goal Difference v Goal Average
Topic Originator: GG Riva  
Date:   Wed 24 Jun 17:31

Quote:

Grant, Wed 24 Jun 16:48

I've heard allot about that 65 season, agonisingly close. Alex Ferguson missing a good chance is often repeated with sad tones...

What was our GA?


I'm fairly sure we had the best GA and the best GD, Grant. We had a great squad of players, but there weren't many changes to the starting XI and in the end we just had too many games to play in a short time scale (we also reached the last 8 of the Fairs Cup, as well as the SC Final) and the fixtures just caught up with our small 1st team squad.

I could be wrong, but I think we did the double over both OF clubs that season, but dropped away points to many smaller clubs. ☹



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 Re: Goal Difference v Goal Average
Topic Originator: veteraneastender  
Date:   Wed 24 Jun 19:49

"What was so frustrating in 1964/65 was that with one more point we would have won the title on EITHER GA or GD.

Kilmarnock: 50 pts (GD +29; GA 1.87)
Hearts 50 pts (GD +39; GA 1.83)
Dunfermline 49 pts (GD +47; GA 2.3)"

Not quite as simple as that Sammer.

At 3pm on the Saturday we were on 47 points and playing at Hampden in the cup final - a win (or maybe even a draw) MIGHT have given Hearts the title even if we had have beaten St.Johnstone the previous Saturday.

Killie were motivated to beat Hearts that day because it would make them champions.



Post Edited (Wed 24 Jun 19:52)
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 Re: Goal Difference v Goal Average
Topic Originator: veteraneastender  
Date:   Wed 24 Jun 19:55

"We did relatively well to draw 3-3 with Dundee at EEP."

I mind it well GG - Bobby Cox (Dundee captain) was sent off early(ish) in the second half for persistently clattering Mickey Edwards was was giving him a torrid time.



Post Edited (Wed 24 Jun 19:55)
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 Re: Goal Difference v Goal Average
Topic Originator: GG Riva  
Date:   Wed 24 Jun 20:18

Quote:

veteraneastender, Wed 24 Jun 19:49

"What was so frustrating in 1964/65 was that with one more point we would have won the title on EITHER GA or GD.

Kilmarnock: 50 pts (GD +29; GA 1.87)
Hearts 50 pts (GD +39; GA 1.83)
Dunfermline 49 pts (GD +47; GA 2.3)"

Not quite as simple as that Sammer.

At 3pm on the Saturday we were on 47 points and playing at Hampden in the cup final - a win (or maybe even a draw) MIGHT have given Hearts the title even if we had have beaten St.Johnstone the previous Saturday.

Killie were motivated to beat Hearts that day because it would make them champions.


Do you not think Killie would still have been motivated to beat Hearts, even if we had beaten St Johnstone? After all, we would still have had to beat Celtic in the last outstanding league fixture after the SC final - by no means a gimme. A 2-0 win for Killie would have put us under tremendous pressure and Celtic would have been obliged to give it 100%, so I doubt we'd have scored 5.



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 Re: Goal Difference v Goal Average
Topic Originator: Pars11  
Date:   Wed 24 Jun 21:00

In La Liga this week Real Madrid went above Barcelona. Real had lesser goal difference, the Spanish used H2H to decide. Real beat Barca and drew with with them earlier in the season. Barca back on top at the moment but Real play tonight and may reclaim pole position.

Bluebell Polka
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 Re: Goal Difference v Goal Average
Topic Originator: eastendalloapar  
Date:   Wed 24 Jun 21:12

When Kilmarnock won the league, they had to win 2 - 0 or 4 - 1. They won 2 - 0 which made a 10 year old Alva boy in hospital very happy.

matt forsyth

Post Edited (Wed 24 Jun 21:13)
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 Re: Goal Difference v Goal Average
Topic Originator: veteraneastender  
Date:   Wed 24 Jun 22:31

"Do you not think Killie would still have been motivated to beat Hearts, even if we had beaten St Johnstone? After all, we would still have had to beat Celtic in the last outstanding league fixture after the SC final - by no means a gimme. A 2-0 win for Killie would have put us under tremendous pressure and Celtic would have been obliged to give it 100%, so I doubt we'd have scored 5."

Had to rethink that one.



Post Edited (Wed 24 Jun 22:45)
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 Re: Goal Difference v Goal Average
Topic Originator: sammer  
Date:   Thu 25 Jun 02:17

I don’t agree that a weak pool of players cost Dunfermline the 1964-65 League Championship. I think the Manager, Willie Cunnimgham, called the wrong shots during the run in.
Here was the team he started the season with, presumably his strongest side, and their appearances and goals over the entire season including League Cup, Scottish Cup and Fairs Cup.
1. Herriot 48
2. Callaghan (W)53
3. Lunn 44
4. Thomson 40
5. McLean 55
6. Millar 19 (4)
7. Edwards 38 (5)
8. Smith 36 (9)
9. McLaughlin 40 (20)
10. Ferguson 40 (21)
11. Sinclair 42 (20)

That is a very stable band of players save for George Millar who was transferred to Wolves early in the season. Would the Pars have won the league had George Millar stayed? I think he would have made a considerable difference since he was a good defensive midfielder and captain of the club. Tommy Callaghan was a god replacement but not so good at that time as a defensive midfielder. (Notice that despite Alex Ferguson rewriting history, his goalscoring was no better than two other players.)

The back up players were remarkably strong and would have made the starting line up in any other season save this one.

Callaghan (T) 49 (2)
Kilgannon 23 (7)
Paton 15 (3)
Melrose 32 (16)
Peebles 25 (3)

That is a very powerful pool of players, with Harry Melrose scoring at the same rate as Alex Ferguson despite alternating between attack and midfield. It was the best collection of players the Pars ever had, geared to play attacking football by Willie Cunningham. However he maybe picked the wrong team on occasion, such as in the 1965 Cup Final, and there was nothing to show for a season that still lives in the memory.
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 Re: Goal Difference v Goal Average
Topic Originator: GG Riva  
Date:   Thu 25 Jun 06:10

Ah, Sammer, you might just have been putting words in my mouth in your post above. I neither stated nor suggested that we had a weak pool of players. On the contrary, I think that was arguably the strongest Pars squad ever, better even than the 68 SC winning one.

I pointed out, from memory, that we used largely the same starting XI every week and your post backs that up very nicely, thanks. 🙂 We mainly used the team which started the season, with Tid Callaghan coming in for George Millar. My point was that these same players played too many games in a short space of time - performances and results understandably suffered. Willie Cunningham obviously believed in putting out his strongest team in every game and never considered rotation. Any changes were due to injuries or suspensions and we're talking about an era in which players who were picked to play would never dream of informing the manager that they were carrying a minor injury, for fear of losing their starting place. Remember too, that there were no subs to alleviate the situation and players who were injured, or aggravated an injury, were expected to soldier on for nuisance value, thus exacerbating their injury.

I believe I'm right in claiming that after Christmas, we played 4 games in 8 days; Sat, Mon, Wed, Sat on several occasions, thanks to postponements, SC replays and our run to the quarters of the Fairs Cup, where we lost to Real Zaragoza, aet, in titanic struggle.



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 Re: Goal Difference v Goal Average
Topic Originator: veteraneastender  
Date:   Thu 25 Jun 09:02

"I don’t agree that a weak pool of players cost Dunfermline the 1964-65 League Championship. I think the Manager, Willie Cunnimgham, called the wrong shots during the run in."

The congestion fixture (as mentioned by GG) resulting partly due to Jim Herriot's indiscertion v Third Lanark in the Scottish cup didn't help.
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 Re: Goal Difference v Goal Average
Topic Originator: cougared  
Date:   Thu 25 Jun 12:54

Arriving at EEP for the St Johnstone game, the talk in the car was that maybe Stein and Cunningham would cook up a deal. Stein would let us win the league if we let him won the cup - total nonsense of course - but we DID think we had a good chance of winning the league. Pars were sitting on 46 points. Hearts on 48 and Killie on 46. Hearts and Killie both won to move on to 50 and 48. Draw with Saints left Pars on 47 and out of it.

They beat Celtic twice in the league that season and also beat Rangers at EEP the Wednesday before the St Johnstone match. Home record was good with only one defeat (Dundee United). Away record saw defeats by Morton, Hibs, Killie, Dundee United.

Big shock on cup final day was that WC had dropped Fergie and played Harry Melrose. Harry did, of course, score but IMHO Jim Herriot had an absolute mare - especially with the third goal. I always rated Eric Martin as our best keeper - didn't really see much of Eddie Connachan.

I thought Fergie should have played in the final.
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