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 Centenary Club Lifeline
Topic Originator: wee eck  
Date:   Mon 3 Aug 15:34

It now has 937 members and has just donated another £10,000 to the club, making £187,800 for the year to date and a total of £1.3m since it was relaunched in 2013.
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 Re: Centenary Club Lifeline
Topic Originator: Rigger Al  
Date:   Mon 3 Aug 15:58

Amazing support
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 Re: Centenary Club Lifeline
Topic Originator: Luxembourg Par  
Date:   Mon 3 Aug 17:18

And I still never won a bolt...

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 Re: Centenary Club Lifeline
Topic Originator: MDCCCLXXXV  
Date:   Mon 3 Aug 18:09

Theres a few of us in that boat lux

East End Park is a symbol of all that is DAFC.
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 Re: Centenary Club Lifeline
Topic Originator: wetherby  
Date:   Mon 3 Aug 18:25

Me neither Lux.

Buy hey, does that matter? Absolutely incredible from our support base.



Post Edited (Mon 03 Aug 18:26)
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 Re: Centenary Club Lifeline
Topic Originator: Buspasspar  
Date:   Mon 3 Aug 18:36

Superb ....Well done to all
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 Re: Centenary Club Lifeline
Topic Originator: Par  
Date:   Mon 3 Aug 20:27

937 members meaning close to 19k going to the club every month. Fantastic
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 Re: Centenary Club Lifeline
Topic Originator: Frank Butchers LoveHandles  
Date:   Mon 3 Aug 23:16

I was one to re sign at the start of Lockdown. Should have done it a couple of years back but life just gets in the way sometimes. Really encouraging numbers.

Awight Pat!
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 Re: Centenary Club Lifeline
Topic Originator: GG Riva  
Date:   Tue 4 Aug 12:09

''937 members meaning close to 19k going to the club every month. Fantastic''

Two things, Par.

Firstly, I think you're not factoring in the prize monies which are paid out monthly. I won £200 in 2018 - no begging letters, please, it's all gone back into the Pars pot. :-)

Secondly and this is good news, some people are donating more than the standard £20 per month, per membership I don't know to what extent that covers the prize money, but I suspect it's not nearly enough.



Not your average Sunday League player.
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 Re: Centenary Club Lifeline
Topic Originator: wee eck  
Date:   Tue 4 Aug 12:33

Another qualification affecting the amount of cash benefiting the club each month is that VAT on the contributions has to be paid. This is one-sixth of the amount received so will be just over £3,000 a month.
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 Re: Centenary Club Lifeline
Topic Originator: wetherby  
Date:   Tue 4 Aug 13:52

Are you sure Wee Eck?

I dont think the monthly entry fee is subject to VAT see:

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/how-vat-applies-to-betting-gaming-and-lotteries-notice-70129
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 Re: Centenary Club Lifeline
Topic Originator: auldpar  
Date:   Tue 4 Aug 13:53

Have the monthly draws continued over the period? I haven't seen a list of winners recently.
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 Re: Centenary Club Lifeline
Topic Originator: wee eck  
Date:   Tue 4 Aug 15:25

''Are you sure Wee Eck?

I don't think the monthly entry fee is subject to VAT...''

You may be right, wetherby. I thought this point had been made on here before but maybe not. Maybe someone from the CCL committee could clarify.
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 Re: Centenary Club Lifeline
Topic Originator: livipar2  
Date:   Thu 13 Aug 08:07

Have the monthly draws continued in recent months? Haven’t seen a winners list for a while.

Mon the Pars!!!!!!!!!!!
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 Re: Centenary Club Lifeline
Topic Originator: wee eck  
Date:   Thu 13 Aug 08:58

Details of winners are shown on COWS under the 'Club' tab. The last list of winners is dated 07/03/20. Winners are announced to coincide with each home game and there always seems to be a gap during the close season.
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 Re: Centenary Club Lifeline
Topic Originator: Row_ZZ  
Date:   Thu 13 Aug 10:14

So, is that roughly 9500 being paid straight to the club every month through the lifeline? Must be such a big help to the club.

I Know There's Gonna Be (Good Times)
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 Re: Centenary Club Lifeline
Topic Originator: BigJPar  
Date:   Thu 13 Aug 10:54

It's much more than that.
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 Re: Centenary Club Lifeline
Topic Originator: thepars68  
Date:   Thu 13 Aug 18:15


total annual income assuming no VAT and constant 937 members all paying £20/mth is 937*12*20= £224880.
Prize Money assuming 5 x £200 each home league match and 13/14 homes this year vs normal 18 and no special draws

13*5*200= £13000 or 14*5*200=£14000 Donation available £224880-£14000= £210880

Monthly Donation over 12mths £210880/12= £17573 so an useful monthly amount

thepars68
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 Re: Centenary Club Lifeline
Topic Originator: GG Riva  
Date:   Thu 13 Aug 19:50

Quote:

thepars68, Thu 13 Aug 18:15

total annual income assuming no VAT and constant 937 members all paying £20/mth


Some members are paying more than the minimum £20.

Just saying........



Not your average Sunday League player.
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 Re: Centenary Club Lifeline
Topic Originator: Superpars68  
Date:   Thu 13 Aug 20:31



There are also some paying less GG, I believe some of the original Centenary Club members are still paying only £8 a month and get 1 entry to monthly draw while the £20 gets 3 entries if memory serves. Admittedly there will be very few still doing that.
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 Re: Centenary Club Lifeline
Topic Originator: Rusty Shackleford  
Date:   Thu 13 Aug 23:39

I know the club is over-stretched to the max right now and money is perpetually tight but I do think there's work to be done on the lifeline scheme.

I joined 6 months ago or so and so far and it's difficult to quantify and form of return on that other than knowing that I'm helping the Pars survive.

I mean, that's fine for me and I can square it off in my head but I can't think of any other sector or service where there's no targeted communication at the least. Even a wee e-mail newsletter or whatever could potentially help with member retention.

I'm trying to be as balanced as I can because I really admire the board and I understand all the constraints they're working under but I'm speaking as someone with close to 15+ years marketing experience, not as someone who is remotely considering cancelling.
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 Re: Centenary Club Lifeline
Topic Originator: Thaipar  
Date:   Fri 14 Aug 00:43

Quote:

Rusty Shackleford, Thu 13 Aug 23:39

I know the club is over-stretched to the max right now and money is perpetually tight but I do think there's work to be done on the lifeline scheme.

I joined 6 months ago or so and so far and it's difficult to quantify and form of return on that other than knowing that I'm helping the Pars survive.

I mean, that's fine for me and I can square it off in my head but I can't think of any other sector or service where there's no targeted communication at the least. Even a wee e-mail newsletter or whatever could potentially help with member retention.

I'm trying to be as balanced as I can because I really admire the board and I understand all the constraints they're working under but I'm speaking as someone with close to 15+ years marketing experience, not as someone who is remotely considering cancelling.


Would you be willing to offer some help to the CCL team Rusty to take it forward, as am sure they club would jump on the chance to boost promoting the CCL.

Please don't book me Admin, it will ruin my life.
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 Re: Centenary Club Lifeline
Topic Originator: red-star-par  
Date:   Fri 14 Aug 01:16

The need to make it into a proper fan ownership scheme. At the moment people are paying money for nothing. This should be earning shares in the club
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 Re: Centenary Club Lifeline
Topic Originator: GG Riva  
Date:   Fri 14 Aug 10:18

Quote:

Superpars68, Thu 13 Aug 20:31

There are also some paying less GG, I believe some of the original Centenary Club members are still paying only £8 a month and get 1 entry to monthly draw while the £20 gets 3 entries if memory serves. Admittedly there will be very few still doing that.


Ah, I hadn't realised that was still the case. There may not be many, but they might outnumber those who increased their contribution at the start of the lockdown. ☹

Eta. £8 a month is better than hee haw, I suppose and it may be as much as they can afford, but a pal of mine resigned from the CC committee in protest when the going rate was increased as he was convinced people would be driven away by the price hike.

He hadn't reckoned on just how much we love the Pars....☺



Not your average Sunday League player.


Post Edited (Fri 14 Aug 10:23)
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 Re: Centenary Club Lifeline
Topic Originator: eastendalloapar  
Date:   Fri 14 Aug 10:34

Perhaps there could be a special deal for OAPs, £10 per month with one entry might bring in more money.

matt forsyth
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 Re: Centenary Club Lifeline
Topic Originator: Rusty Shackleford  
Date:   Fri 14 Aug 12:55

Quote:

Thaipar, Fri 14 Aug 00:43

Quote:

Rusty Shackleford, Thu 13 Aug 23:39

I know the club is over-stretched to the max right now and money is perpetually tight but I do think there's work to be done on the lifeline scheme.

I joined 6 months ago or so and so far and it's difficult to quantify and form of return on that other than knowing that I'm helping the Pars survive.

I mean, that's fine for me and I can square it off in my head but I can't think of any other sector or service where there's no targeted communication at the least. Even a wee e-mail newsletter or whatever could potentially help with member retention.

I'm trying to be as balanced as I can because I really admire the board and I understand all the constraints they're working under but I'm speaking as someone with close to 15+ years marketing experience, not as someone who is remotely considering cancelling.


Would you be willing to offer some help to the CCL team Rusty to take it forward, as am sure they club would jump on the chance to boost promoting the CCL.


I'd love to help.

Just to be clear, I'm a fan of the lifeline. I just think there's potentially creative ways to make people feel a bit more like they're part of something.
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 Re: Centenary Club Lifeline
Topic Originator: Thaipar  
Date:   Fri 14 Aug 13:03

Quote:

Rusty Shackleford, Fri 14 Aug 12:55

Quote:

Thaipar, Fri 14 Aug 00:43

Quote:

Rusty Shackleford, Thu 13 Aug 23:39

I know the club is over-stretched to the max right now and money is perpetually tight but I do think there's work to be done on the lifeline scheme.

I joined 6 months ago or so and so far and it's difficult to quantify and form of return on that other than knowing that I'm helping the Pars survive.

I mean, that's fine for me and I can square it off in my head but I can't think of any other sector or service where there's no targeted communication at the least. Even a wee e-mail newsletter or whatever could potentially help with member retention.

I'm trying to be as balanced as I can because I really admire the board and I understand all the constraints they're working under but I'm speaking as someone with close to 15+ years marketing experience, not as someone who is remotely considering cancelling.


Would you be willing to offer some help to the CCL team Rusty to take it forward, as am sure they club would jump on the chance to boost promoting the CCL.


I'd love to help.

Just to be clear, I'm a fan of the lifeline. I just think there's potentially creative ways to make people feel a bit more like they're part of something.


Am sure if you contact the committee they would appreciate marketing help. Well done Rusty.

Please don't book me Admin, it will ruin my life.
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 Re: Centenary Club Lifeline
Topic Originator: GG Riva  
Date:   Fri 14 Aug 14:33

Quote:

eastendalloapar, Fri 14 Aug 10:34

Perhaps there could be a special deal for OAPs, £10 per month with one entry might bring in more money.


I don't think you could have some members paying £8 and others £10 for the same monthly draw, eeap.

Maybe one of CC committee can advise whether the £8 option is available to new members or whether it was a privilege only extended to those who joined the original CC?



Not your average Sunday League player.
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 Re: Centenary Club Lifeline
Topic Originator: Thaipar  
Date:   Fri 14 Aug 16:27

Quote:

GG Riva, Fri 14 Aug 14:33

Quote:

eastendalloapar, Fri 14 Aug 10:34

Perhaps there could be a special deal for OAPs, £10 per month with one entry might bring in more money.


I don't think you could have some members paying £8 and others £10 for the same monthly draw, eeap.

Maybe one of CC committee can advise whether the £8 option is available to new members or whether it was a privilege only extended to those who joined the original CC?


I remember reading only long standing history members only.

Please don't book me Admin, it will ruin my life.
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 Re: Centenary Club Lifeline
Topic Originator: RhinoPars  
Date:   Sun 16 Aug 21:08

Red Star it is not correct to say we get nothing from our Centenary Club memberships. You have a chance of winning cash prizes and a few seasons back someone won a car and I once won a signed football. You also can get discounts at various suppliers and restaurants. There is also the feel good factor of knowing you are doing your bit to help the club. We also have an excellent fan ownership model with protections in place to ensure no shareholder can have controlling power. If you want to get a share of ownership you can either get this directly by buying shares (as I have) or indirectly by donating to the Pars Supporters Trust. The trust is the largest shareholder.
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 Re: Centenary Club Lifeline
Topic Originator: twin par  
Date:   Sun 16 Aug 21:21

Agree.I have been a founder member.Although,at the moment, I can only afford 8 quid,I feel I am helping the club.I wish I could do more,don't care about winning anything, as long as this proud club benefits.

Post Edited (Sun 16 Aug 21:21)
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 Re: Centenary Club Lifeline
Topic Originator: da_no_1  
Date:   Sun 16 Aug 21:22

red-star-par must be fishing surely

"Some days will stay a 1000 years, some pass like the flash of a spark"
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 Re: Centenary Club Lifeline
Topic Originator: RhinoPars  
Date:   Mon 17 Aug 13:08

Quite possibly da no 1
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 Re: Centenary Club Lifeline
Topic Originator: red-star-par  
Date:   Mon 17 Aug 18:23

Quote:

da_no_1, Sun 16 Aug 21:22

red-star-par must be fishing surely


No, I'm not fishing. It just a disappointing scheme, compared to the the Foundation of Hearts, St Mirren and the Well Society who are getting true fan ownership. Pars fans have put in over a million and have nothing to show for it
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 Re: Centenary Club Lifeline
Topic Originator: kelty_par  
Date:   Mon 17 Aug 18:40

I think it's a fair enough compliant, and can't see how anyone can suggest it's fishing. If every 10 grand raised was concerned into a share or something and the Centenary Club as a group was a shareholder then there would be tangible and obvious benefits to being a member. As it is, someone might (might is doing a lot of lifting here) look at AJ's pay-off, or wages to Danny Devine or whatever and say "is that the best use of my Centenary Club money when if I was a St Mirren or Motherwell fan I'd have a direct stake in my club".
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 Re: Centenary Club Lifeline
Topic Originator: jake89  
Date:   Mon 17 Aug 19:23

There's nothing stopping anyone from setting up a fan ownership fund. Wasn't this done in the dark days to get a certain % of the club owned by fans? Isn't the club technically already owned by fans, just that some fans are putting a significantly higher amount in?
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 Re: Centenary Club Lifeline
Topic Originator: Stanza  
Date:   Mon 17 Aug 19:56

When Pars United took over the club, there was a business model put in place remarkably quickly, and despite this it has proved remarkably durable. That, IMO, is due to the quality of those in charge. Whether it is a model for the future when others may be in charge I'm less sure, but there are far too many uncertainties just now to make changes.

When the CC Lifeline was being relaunched, some people floated the idea that shares should be allocated to those with a record of 5 years unbroken contributions.
EG 5 x £180 (annual payments less prize money) = 900 shares. Knock off something for the cost of more complex admin, queries and complaints, so say 750 shares. I do think that would have been a significant move towards a truly supporter-owned club.

But one obvious downside is that it would have diluted the percentage share ownership of those individuals (and the PST) unless they put even more money into the club. While that extra money might sound a good thing, not everyone might have wanted or been able to "invest" (ie donate) even more money, not unreasonably given the amounts already "invested", so there might have been a loss of goodwill from the current directors/investors.

Unlike many clubs, our Directors all have hands-on duties (unpaid) in the day-to-day running of the club. We are extremely lucky to have this - if we had to pay the market rate for a chief executive, accountant, facilities manager etc there wouldn't be much money for players or ground improvements.

So for the moment, if it ain't broke, don't try to fix it.

_________________

Support Dunfermline Athletic Disabled Supporters' Club (it will cost you nothing) when you shop online with one of 4000 retailers and insurance firms etc
http://www.easyfundraising.org.uk/causes/dadsc
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 Re: Centenary Club Lifeline
Topic Originator: Buspasspar  
Date:   Mon 17 Aug 20:25

Good post Stanza
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 Re: Centenary Club Lifeline
Topic Originator: wee eck  
Date:   Mon 17 Aug 20:34

There seems to be a feeling amongst some fans that 'fan ownership' means fans being involved in the day-to-day running of the club, eg having a say in players' wages or a manager's pay-off as referred to above. I don't see how that would work in practice and doubt any model of fan ownership in Scotland works like that. Someone, either paid or unpaid, is going to have to be appointed to make those decisions, in consultation with others where appropriate, and that's what we've got at EEP.
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 Re: Centenary Club Lifeline
Topic Originator: da_no_1  
Date:   Mon 17 Aug 20:43

Quote:

kelty_par, Mon 17 Aug 18:40

I think it's a fair enough compliant, and can't see how anyone can suggest it's fishing. If every 10 grand raised was concerned into a share or something and the Centenary Club as a group was a shareholder then there would be tangible and obvious benefits to being a member. As it is, someone might (might is doing a lot of lifting here) look at AJ's pay-off, or wages to Danny Devine or whatever and say "is that the best use of my Centenary Club money when if I was a St Mirren or Motherwell fan I'd have a direct stake in my club".


p*sh. You'd have to be pretty stupid to think the Centenary Club is anything other than what it is. Not sure what you're insinuating?

Oh and excellent post Stanza

"Some days will stay a 1000 years, some pass like the flash of a spark"

Post Edited (Mon 17 Aug 21:13)
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 Re: Centenary Club Lifeline
Topic Originator: Buspasspar  
Date:   Mon 17 Aug 21:20

Why does a sensible meaningful post always turn in to a personal vendetta ? words like p*sh and you have to be stupid etc. (the usual suspects btw)

Everybody on this forum is entitled to their own opinion ... it may differ from other opinions.... that is what a forum discussion is based upon ... opinions, ideas, support, suggestions, .... not cheap shot insults ... just saying
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 Re: Centenary Club Lifeline
Topic Originator: Socks  
Date:   Mon 17 Aug 21:21

I'm quite sure that everyone who contributes to it understands what it is, i.e. a way of donating money with a small chance to win a prize. That isn't really the issue, though.

I don't find it a particularly attractive prospect to regularly donate money that effectively just goes to topping up the budget each season. It would appeal to me far more if it was to fund something with a specific long-term purpose, buying back East End Park being the most obvious one.

The voluntary efforts that go into running it are laudable, but there should never be a problem with anyone talking a view that points out a different angle or feels it isn't perfect. Constructive debate is surely a good thing.
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 Re: Centenary Club Lifeline
Topic Originator: kelty_par  
Date:   Mon 17 Aug 21:30

"eg having a say in players' wages or a manager's pay-off as referred to above."

I'm not saying fans should have a say in this, I'm saying that someone who paid into the Centenary Club (for arguments sake, let's make it someone who doesn't go to games) might ask what they are getting from their financial contribution. People who put money in as shareholders get shares and a seat at the table. People who buy tickets get to see the game. People who buy merchandise and programmes get that. People who pay for hospitality get that. People who pay for sponsorship get exposure, get to entertain clients or whatever. Peoples who pay into the Centenary Club might (and again, for the hard of thinking or comprehension I said the word "might" was doing a lot of heavy lifting and isn't my personal opinion, so I'm not sure why I'm being accused of "insinuating" anything) wonder what exactly they get out of their financial contribution.
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 Re: Centenary Club Lifeline
Topic Originator: da_no_1  
Date:   Mon 17 Aug 22:06

I pay £20 a month to the Centenary Club. For that I am entered into a monthly prize draw. I may win a prize. I might not. The money goes into a pot to help the club on a day to day business. I was never promised a say in anything.

It's a fact that the collective money raised by the Centenary Club enables the club to compete at the level it does. Questioning it on a public forum and asking why it doesn't give those who pay certain rights that were never promised from the outset only damages its reputation in my opinion and might even run the risk of future contributions.

Buspasspar if you think my post is a vendetta I suggest you look the word up in the dictionary. Look up precious wee flower while you're there....😉

"Some days will stay a 1000 years, some pass like the flash of a spark"
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 Re: Centenary Club Lifeline
Topic Originator: Rusty Shackleford  
Date:   Mon 17 Aug 22:13

I think a football forum that's dedicated to a lower league Scottish football side is the best place to have online civil discourse about a funding scheme for said lower league Scottish football scheme. If not, the only place.

Post Edited (Mon 17 Aug 22:14)
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 Re: Centenary Club Lifeline
Topic Originator: da_no_1  
Date:   Mon 17 Aug 22:58

Quote:

Rusty Shackleford, Mon 17 Aug 22:13

I think a football forum that's dedicated to a lower league Scottish football side is the best place to have online civil discourse about a funding scheme for said lower league Scottish football scheme. If not, the only place.


Agreed. Or to propose a completely different scheme with completely different objectives with a completely different name. Bash on.

Anyway, that's my final word on this thread. I'm happy with how the CC is run. No point me contributing further

"Some days will stay a 1000 years, some pass like the flash of a spark"

Post Edited (Mon 17 Aug 23:37)
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 Re: Centenary Club Lifeline
Topic Originator: red-star-par  
Date:   Tue 18 Aug 00:37

Quote:

da_no_1, Mon 17 Aug 22:58

Quote:

Rusty Shackleford, Mon 17 Aug 22:13

I think a football forum that's dedicated to a lower league Scottish football side is the best place to have online civil discourse about a funding scheme for said lower league Scottish football scheme. If not, the only place.


Agreed. Or to propose a completely different scheme with completely different objectives with a completely different name. Bash on.

Anyway, that's my final word on this thread. I'm happy with how the CC is run. No point me contributing further


So now you are no longer contributing?
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 Re: Centenary Club Lifeline
Topic Originator: Thaipar  
Date:   Tue 18 Aug 00:51

Quote:

red-star-par, Tue 18 Aug 00:37

Quote:

da_no_1, Mon 17 Aug 22:58

Quote:

Rusty Shackleford, Mon 17 Aug 22:13

I think a football forum that's dedicated to a lower league Scottish football side is the best place to have online civil discourse about a funding scheme for said lower league Scottish football scheme. If not, the only place.


Agreed. Or to propose a completely different scheme with completely different objectives with a completely different name. Bash on.

Anyway, that's my final word on this thread. I'm happy with how the CC is run. No point me contributing further


So now you are no longer contributing?


I think he is saying not contributing further to the discussion as he is happy the way the CCL is being run.

Please don't book me Admin, it will ruin my life.
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 Re: Centenary Club Lifeline
Topic Originator: da_no_1  
Date:   Tue 18 Aug 07:30

Quote:

red-star-par, Tue 18 Aug 00:37

Quote:

da_no_1, Mon 17 Aug 22:58

Quote:

Rusty Shackleford, Mon 17 Aug 22:13

I think a football forum that's dedicated to a lower league Scottish football side is the best place to have online civil discourse about a funding scheme for said lower league Scottish football scheme. If not, the only place.


Agreed. Or to propose a completely different scheme with completely different objectives with a completely different name. Bash on.

Anyway, that's my final word on this thread. I'm happy with how the CC is run. No point me contributing further


So now you are no longer contributing?


Lol.....just to this thread 😁

"Some days will stay a 1000 years, some pass like the flash of a spark"
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 Re: Centenary Club Lifeline
Topic Originator: SteviePar  
Date:   Tue 18 Aug 16:03

Hi @Rusty Shackleford,

We love to chat to you about some of your ideas. Could you ping us a wee email?

lifeline@dafc.co.uk

Cheers
Steve
Committee member
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 Re: Centenary Club Lifeline
Topic Originator: RhinoPars  
Date:   Tue 18 Aug 18:03

Socks wrote "I'm quite sure that everyone who contributes to it understands what it is, i.e. a way of donating money with a small chance to win a prize." While I agree with Socks that most will get this and are happy to help our club in the process - Red Star clearly doesn't, as he is of the opinion that fans have got nothing for their money. Well some members got some of the £15,000 in cash prizes last year, some got boardroom tickets and we all (perhaps not Red Star!) got the feel good factor of knowing we had contributed in a small way to help contribute to the continued running our club and in the process increasing the player budget higher than it would otherwise have been. As has been explained many times the CCL also helps the club with cashflow at difficult times without home games. Would the club get as much cash in if people just got shares and no cash or oher prizes?

If you start giving out shares to CCL members (who also have chances to win cash and occasionally other prizes, and who also qualify for a range of discounts and more recently might win a boardroom ticket); then to be fair, would you not then also have to start giving out lottery opportunities to existing shareholders (or the supporters trust) who have given their money to their club for no expected financial return at all. If you did that, then to keep the same win ratio for existing CCL members you would need to get additional prize money to the value of just over £65,000 (given CCL win ratio and number of Pars United £1 shares from recent statement). This would then give existing shareholders (including supporters trust) the same level of benefits as CCL members. That is equivalent to 52 months worth of CCL cash prizes. This money would have to come from somewhere and financially the club needs all the money it can get. I'd rather than money stayed in the club - especially when we financially had such a bad year (last financial year).

Socks and I will have to agree to disagree. I am very happy that my CCL money goes to top up the club's budget. Management can then get a bit more cash to try to achieve success on the pitch. While there is not a perfect relationship between funding and success on the pitch; numerous analyses have shown there is still a very strong correlation. While there have been some past transfer dealings that haven't worked out, over the long run, more cash for management in the long run should increase our chances on the pitch. This is why I strongly favour continuing paying over of CCL profits to the club. I would see any reduction in club running costs to spend CCL money on other things as shooting ourselves in the foot and weakening our chances of getting back to the Premier League.

For me fans do to all intents and purposes own the ground as Pars United CIC has a controlling vote on the ground company board, and all those who put additional money in to buy the ground at the time had to also be contributing to the club as shareholders (with the maximum they could invest in the ground being three times what they had invested in Pars United CIC). I have cut and pasted some governance info I got from COWS below. It indicates that the club couldn't have bought the ground directly at the time without incurring VAT. The rental for the ground (that was waived for an initial period) is also modest. I can't recall how much the ground cost to buy in the end, but if it was say £1m that would equate to a return of only 4% odd in year 5. Well done to those supporters who came up with a suitable vehicle and arrangement to buy the ground (with checks and balances in place), and all those who were prepared to put in more additional money at such short notice to enable the ground to be purchased as well as the club. There was only ten days for this to be done.

The governance document further indicated that some of the ground funders have indicated that they would be prepared to sell down some of their PU(EEP) holding to new, additional investors and it is a requirement that for every £3 nominal share capital acquired a new investor must also subscribe £1 for new PUCIC shares.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Cut and pasted text from https://dafc.co.uk/pdf/Ownership_Governance_and_Management_030415.pdf.


A number of factors required that a slightly complex corporate structure be used to allow the joint objectives of acquiring the Club and the stadium to be achieved.

1. East End Park had to be purchased subject to the existing lease to DAFC,
so that the transaction could be treated as the transfer of a business as a
going concern, thereby avoiding the cash flow difficulties that would have
arisen on having to pay VAT on the purchase price. It followed that DAFC
could not be the purchaser as it could not be both landlord and tenant.

2. During the course of discussions with possible funders, it became clear
that there were several who were happy to contribute funds to support
the Club, even though they knew that there was no realistic prospect of
there being any financial return on money subscribed. It was also clear,
however, that there were others who might only subscribe where there
was some asset backing to their investment. Equally, some in the former
group were prepared to subscribe considerably larger sums if asset
backing could be offered.

3. The administrators of East End Park Ltd, on behalf of Lloyds TSB, made it
clear that they would very much prefer that the stadium was to be owned
as part of a process of ensuring that DAFC was becoming a community
asset. They required to be satisfied that the stadium was not simply being
bought on the cheap by investors in a property play.

4. In order to align with the overriding strategy of bringing about a genuine
community club, effective control of the stadium had to lie with PUCIC
and/or DAFC, even though many of the economic benefits would flow to
the group funding the acquisition of the stadium.
The structure adopted is shown in a diagram in the appendix on page 16. It has
the following benefits:

1. It allowed investors access to an asset backed investment in PU(EEP).

2. It requires those investing in PU(EEP) to invest at least £1 in PUCIC for
every £3 invested in PU(EEP).

3. It allowed the acquisition of East End Park to be effected without any
charge to VAT.

4. It provides a modest return to the PU(EEP) investors, while leaving DAFC
to pay an affordable rent.

5. It makes it practically impossible for PU(EEP) to make a profit out of a
sale of the stadium without, first, looking after the interests of DAFC.

6. The composition of PU(EEP)’s board effectively gives PUCIC day-to-day
control of PU(EEP)’s affairs.

7. The shareholding arrangement gives PUCIC the ability to block the
passing of a PU(EEP) special resolution.
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 Re: Centenary Club Lifeline
Topic Originator: Buspasspar  
Date:   Tue 18 Aug 18:24

excellent ^^^
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 Re: Centenary Club Lifeline
Topic Originator: Stanza  
Date:   Tue 18 Aug 20:09

"If you start giving out shares to CCL members (who also have chances to win cash and occasionally other prizes, and who also qualify for a range of discounts and more recently might win a boardroom ticket); then to be fair, would you not then also have to start giving out lottery opportunities to existing shareholders (or the supporters trust) who have given their money to their club for no expected financial return at all. If you did that, then to keep the same win ratio for existing CCL members you would need to get additional prize money to the value of just over £65,000 (given CCL win ratio and number of Pars United £1 shares from recent statement). This would then give existing shareholders (including supporters trust) the same level of benefits as CCL members. That is equivalent to 52 months worth of CCL cash prizes. This money would have to come from somewhere and financially the club needs all the money it can get. I'd rather than money stayed in the club - especially when we financially had such a bad year (last financial year)."

Except that it was never (AFAIK) proposed that all CCL members should be allocated shares for their monthly payments on a 1:1 basis.

The suggestion was to restrict a share issue to those who had shown long-term financial commitment to the club by making five years continuous payments (ie £1200). So not all the CCL contributors would qualify, and anyone who did would only do so every five years.

And for their contribution of £1200 it was suggested they might receive shares to the value of £750, to allow for CCL prizes and the cost of administering the scheme and the enlarged share register. If the sums still didn't balance, then £600 worth of shares (50% of the investment) would still be a decent acknowledgment of the supporter's commitment and would widen the share ownership of the club.

There would be no change to the CCL revenue or prizes, no reduction of CCL contributions to the football club, and no need for any eligibility of shareholders to the lottery element of CCL. It's even possible that an enhanced CCL scheme would prove more attractive and generate more income for DAFC.

For the reasons outlined in my earlier post I do NOT think now is the right time to make any changes to the DAFC business model or to the CCL scheme. But at some time in the future this might change, and as supporters we should be open to any suggestions, and willing to discuss their merits and demerits, provided that discussion is done fairly and reasonably.

_________________

Support Dunfermline Athletic Disabled Supporters' Club (it will cost you nothing) when you shop online with one of 4000 retailers and insurance firms etc
http://www.easyfundraising.org.uk/causes/dadsc
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 Re: Centenary Club Lifeline
Topic Originator: Rusty Shackleford  
Date:   Tue 18 Aug 20:29

Quote:

SteviePar, Tue 18 Aug 16:03

Hi @Rusty Shackleford,

We love to chat to you about some of your ideas. Could you ping us a wee email?

lifeline@dafc.co.uk

Cheers
Steve
Committee member


Will do Steve. I'll drop you a note by the end of the week. If you don't hear from me come on here and moan and chase me up. It's a hell of a time with work from home + kids but I'd love to help with this if I can.
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 Re: Centenary Club Lifeline
Topic Originator: Socks  
Date:   Tue 18 Aug 22:40

"Socks and I will have to agree to disagree."

I don't think we really disagree on all that much, and I'm not really sure why my brief comment has provoked such a response. I have never doubted that many are happy to contribute to it, knowing that the money is mainly a donation to top up the budget with a small chance of winning a prize. And there's no problem with that at all. All I said is that the current scheme is not attractive to me - we can't really disagree on that because it's a fact!

I'm also already aware of the current structure of various companies and the reasons why it is this way. I am genuinely appreciative of those people who gave money and huge effort to come up with something workable to bring the club out of administration and buy the ground at the same time (at very short notice), and what resulted was obviously done to safeguard DAFC's best interests at the time. My wish for DAFC to own its own ground in the long term is in no way a criticism of those who put the current setup in place.

However, my long term ideal is that the complex structure, necessary in 2013, will not always be required. What I'd really love is to get to a position over a long period where DAFC becomes the CIC and owns East End Park, and the rest of the companies can be dissolved.

I don't know how many people share my view, and wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't many at all. However many it is, that doesn't diminish the point I was making, that to me, with full knowledge of our recent history, a fund for something longer term is more attractive than a fund that gets added to normal spending each season. My feeling on this is not as a result of ignorance.
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 Re: Centenary Club Lifeline
Topic Originator: RhinoPars  
Date:   Wed 19 Aug 14:57

I see where you are coming from Socks - Thanks - As you say we are pretty much on the same page. While I get the desire for long term - I just feel our immediate priority should be to do the best we can on the pitch (without putting the future of the club at risk)in the hope of getting to the Premier League and then trying to establish ourselves there. Apart from helping with cash flow the CCL boosts resources and enables management to have a bigger playing budget (especially after the bad loss we had one year) which is why I am happy to support CCL.

Stanza - Thanks for your post. I wasn't aware of the suggestion you outlined. I wasn't suggesting that CCL members got 1:1 shares but rather making a point in response to Red Star's post that it wouldn't perhaps be fair for CCL members to get shares and chances to win prizes while the existing shareholders didn't get any of the same benefits. However your suggestion that one perhaps could allocate a proportion of the contributions to shares (for long term CCL members) might well be a nice way to incentivise long term contributors and recognise their contributions. I suspect existing shareholders in practice wouldn't object to any such dilution, as it is would in some way recognise the contribution of long term CCL supporters. However as you say, if it ain't broken why fix it. Presumably any share scheme would necessitate some additional admin costs to run it. Personally I would prefer we allocate as much money as we can to the club rather than running up additional expenses. There may be other ways to recognise long term CCL contributors. I would suspect the majority of contributors are happy with the scheme.

I 100% agree with your earlier post. We are so lucky with the calibre, professional expertise and dedication of those on our boards who do so much work for the club for no financial gain. Also there are so many others who give of their time to assist in so many ways. Dunfermline is a great club and everyone who contributes in whatever way (includingCCL) is doing their bit to help which is great. CCL is a great and valuable scheme and my thanks go to those that run it.
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 Re: Centenary Club Lifeline
Topic Originator: Parsdaft  
Date:   Thu 20 Aug 06:45

Maybe we can get a badge 😉
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 Re: Centenary Club Lifeline
Topic Originator: wee eck  
Date:   Fri 21 Aug 13:32

There are going to be draws for the 5 x £200 cash prizes at the two home Betfred Cup games and also draws for non-cash prizes during September. Maybe somebody's been reading this thread!
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 Re: Centenary Club Lifeline
Topic Originator: Parsdaft  
Date:   Fri 21 Aug 21:28

Crossed my mind Wee Eck
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 Re: Centenary Club Lifeline
Topic Originator: da_no_1  
Date:   Tue 25 Aug 10:47

Not having a go Eck, but I didn't realise the draws were only held on home game days. I assumed it was just drawn monthly.

Obviously that's why there's not been a draw made since March.

"Some days will stay a 1000 years, some pass like the flash of a spark"
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 Re: Centenary Club Lifeline
Topic Originator: wee eck  
Date:   Tue 25 Aug 12:35

I presume there are rules about how much has to be distributed in prize money but I can't find any details on COWS.
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 Re: Centenary Club Lifeline
Topic Originator: RhinoPars  
Date:   Tue 25 Aug 14:10

Eck last season's winners are listed on COWS under Club/Centenary Club Winners
with £1,000 of cash prizes for each of 15 home games.
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 Re: Centenary Club Lifeline
Topic Originator: wee eck  
Date:   Tue 25 Aug 17:14

I see that, RhinoPars. If you look at the prizes just after it was re-launched there were some months when £3,000 was distributed and one month a car was awarded although this may have been donated by a sponsor.

The point I was making was that I thought for lotteries there was a legal minimum percentage of the proceeds which had to be made available as prizes. It would be up to the committee how they decided to split this prize pool.
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 Re: Centenary Club Lifeline
Topic Originator: the saline hill puma  
Date:   Tue 25 Aug 19:16

Quote:

wee eck, Tue 25 Aug 17:14

I see that, RhinoPars. If you look at the prizes just after it was re-launched there were some months when £3,000 was distributed and one month a car was awarded although this may have been donated by a sponsor.

The point I was making was that I thought for lotteries there was a legal minimum percentage of the proceeds which had to be made available as prizes. It would be up to the committee how they decided to split this prize pool.


The car was donated by a sponser from what I recall, can't mind which garage though
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 Re: Centenary Club Lifeline
Topic Originator: eastendalloapar  
Date:   Tue 25 Aug 21:12

It was a little Chevrolet, the dealer used to be in Dalgety Bay where Peter Vardy the Vauxhall dealer is now.

matt forsyth
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