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 Another Great Honest Mistake of our Time
Topic Originator: GG Riva  
Date:   Mon 18 Jan 15:54

I was sent this link by a life long mate of mine, who happens to be a Celtic fan, but even so, is a really good guy. I have no recollection of either the OF game it alludes to or the referee, who appears to be the villain of the piece. The fact that he was subsequently banned from refereeing after accepting a bribe in a European game, gives some weight to the view that he may not always have been scrupulously honest in every game he officiated in. I love the wry humour throughout the article.

https://ntvcelticfanzine.com/2020/04/02/another-great-honest-mistake-of-our-time/

It's worth noting that the Celtic team of 77/78 were very average, finishing 5th in a 10 team league losing as many games as the won, with 36 pts from 36 games, so there's no suggestion that the game in question cost them the league.

Going by the article's heading, this wasn't the only controversial game down the years. If any of you know of others, perhaps you can add them to this thread?



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 Re: Another Great Honest Mistake of our Time
Topic Originator: Buspasspar  
Date:   Mon 18 Jan 16:08

One that will annoy you G.G. :)

Euro 2004

When Denmark and Sweden deliberately drew 2-2 to send Italy home
The Biscotto game

We are forever shaped by the Children we once were
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 Re: Another Great Honest Mistake of our Time
Topic Originator: eastendalloapar  
Date:   Mon 18 Jan 16:35

GG Riva why could we not have had that referee in the 2004 final.

matt forsyth
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 Re: Another Great Honest Mistake of our Time
Topic Originator: saltonsgonagetu  
Date:   Mon 18 Jan 16:42

Surely the greater story is that of Italian football officials caught cheating again .
Dundee in 1962 ,Dundee utd 1984 ,I'm sure there must be more Italian skulduggery going about .

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 Re: Another Great Honest Mistake of our Time
Topic Originator: saltonsgonagetu  
Date:   Mon 18 Jan 16:48

No cheating bastards will I talk to,’ said Brian Clough famously, sticking his head out of the away dressing room at Stadio Comunale di Torino in 1973 after Juventus had defeated Derby County 3-1 in the European Cup. ‘I will not talk to cheating bastards,’ he added with typical rhetorical flourish to the waiting Italian journalists, before shutting the door behind him.
Brian Glanville, the doyen of British football writers, was an eyewitness and, as a multi linguist, was pressed into action by his Italian colleagues, demanding a translation. Glanville coyly claimed not to have fully understood.

Clough evidently had overheard his diplomatic efforts as he then burst out of the dressing room again. ‘Tell them what I said, Brian!’ Clough insisted. So he did; and a near international incident ensued.*

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 Re: Another Great Honest Mistake of our Time
Topic Originator: Buspasspar  
Date:   Mon 18 Jan 16:51

Great story salton He was some man was Mr. Clough

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 Re: Another Great Honest Mistake of our Time
Topic Originator: saltonsgonagetu  
Date:   Mon 18 Jan 16:57

Because on the night before Roma’s European Cup semi-final second leg against Dundee United in 1983-84, with the Serie A club desperate to overturn a 2-0 deficit in order to reach a final being played in their own stadium, referee Michel Vautrot was told to have dinner at a specific restaurant. The referee was also told to wait for a specific moment during the meal. That was when a waiter came over to say “telephone call for Mr Vautrot”. That would be the signal for 100m lire - £50,000 - to be handed over as a bribe.

These are the revelations of Roma director Riccardo Viola - son of the club’s late president Dino Viola - who said all of this on Italian TV company Mediaset Premium a few years ago, although it is claimed the attempt at a bribe failed.
That is true and a shameful fact,” Viola stated. “All of this was done because we had a difficult game ahead of us against Dundee United. Going out of the competition would have had serious repercussions.”

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 Re: Another Great Honest Mistake of our Time
Topic Originator: veteraneastender  
Date:   Mon 18 Jan 17:11

Here is the refused penalty claim that so incensed the Celtic players, and the resulting goal from John Grieg which (from their perspective) added insult to injury !!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3jxuuYOgt-Y

The article omits to mention the other official suspended by the SFA after the Milan shopping incident for some reason.

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 Re: Another Great Honest Mistake of our Time
Topic Originator: Buspasspar  
Date:   Mon 18 Jan 17:19

I noticed the Goalie was Stewart Kennedy vee He signed for us in 1967 which I was chuffed about because I used to play football with him at Tulliallan I`ve not seen him for years but I am still friends with his brother Kyle who still lives in Clacks



Post Edited (Mon 18 Jan 17:22)
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 Re: Another Great Honest Mistake of our Time
Topic Originator: veteraneastender  
Date:   Mon 18 Jan 17:20

"Surely the greater story is that of Italian football officials caught cheating again .
Dundee in 1962 ,Dundee utd 1984 ,I`m sure there must be more Italian skulduggery going about ."

I clearly mind watching Dundee being shafted by planned "enemy action" in the San Siro - a squad of photographers took up tactical positions behind the Milan goal and fired off a barrage of flash bulbs whenever Dundee put the ball into the penalty area.

I mind seeing Stewart Kennedy in the Pars` reserves back in the day. Of course he`ll always be remembed for the drubbing we got at Wembley when he was Scotland`s keeper.



Post Edited (Mon 18 Jan 17:23)
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 Re: Another Great Honest Mistake of our Time
Topic Originator: Buspasspar  
Date:   Mon 18 Jan 17:42

I wasn`t going to mention that vee :)

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 Re: Another Great Honest Mistake of our Time
Topic Originator: sammer  
Date:   Mon 18 Jan 17:47


Here’s a link to the bizarre John Greig goal mentioned in the original post. (I think VEE has already supplied this)
Greig was actually offside when the ball was played in his direction since he was behind the Celtic keeper and there was only one player between him and the goal line. There’s no evidence of Celtic players mobbing JRP Gordon up till this point.

https://youtu.be/3jxuuYOgt-Y

RH Davidson was a referee distrusted by Jock Stein, although he did do us a favour when disallowing a Jim Brogan strike at Parkhead in 1968. The score was 0-0 at the time and even by the stricter standards of the day it was a severe interpretation of the offside law.

Stein was furious with Davidson’s handling of the 1970 SC Final in which he awarded a controversial penalty for hands (that would be uncontroversial these days) and disallowed a ‘goal’ when Lennox was adjudged to have fouled Bobby Clark (it looked like the keeper fumbled the ball.)

sammer
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 Re: Another Great Honest Mistake of our Time
Topic Originator: saltonsgonagetu  
Date:   Mon 18 Jan 18:27

Dundee were unnerving their Italian hosts and were still level at half-time but problems were mounting for the Dark Blues. Bert Slater was being blinded by a battery of camera flashes every time he went for the ball and Shankly complained about this at half-time to the Italian officials and to the Spanish referee Vincente Caballero but to no avail. Indeed the referee according to Tommy Gallacher in The Courier showed such bias that “every time a Dundee player went near their Italian counterparts, he made it impossible for Dundee to tackle them.”

Dundee on the other hand were being subjected to some fierce tackling and Gordon Smith and Alan Gilzean in particular were coming in for some rough treatment.
Indeed some weeks after the match in Milan, suspicions that Dundee had been dealt unfairly in the San Siro by the referee was given credence when the official was found to have accepted extravagant gifts from the Italian club during another game and was banned from officiating pending charges of bribery.

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 Re: Another Great Honest Mistake of our Time
Topic Originator: Grant  
Date:   Mon 18 Jan 18:58

Quote:

veteraneastender, Mon 18 Jan 17:11

Here is the refused penalty claim that so incensed the Celtic players, and the resulting goal from John Grieg which (from their perspective) added insult to injury !!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3jxuuYOgt-Y

The article omits to mention the other official suspended by the SFA after the Milan shopping incident for some reason.



It's really hard to judge if that's a penalty or not from the camera angle, it might be but I wouldn't say it's an utterly disgraceful decision or a clear sign of biased.

Pretty disgraceful from the Celtic team though, let themselves and the fans down. Play to the whistle! Keeper doesn't know where he's going.
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 Re: Another Great Honest Mistake of our Time
Topic Originator: Ben,D.A  
Date:   Mon 18 Jan 21:57

Dennis law has many a story about Italian Refs, part of the reason he spent such a short time at Torino.
When playing in the `local derby`, he was kicked, kneed and elbowed for the whole game. Yet his biggest memory was that every time he made a run, the right side linesman would raise his flag for offside.
After taking 15 minutes of pressure from Juventus, Joe Baker played a through ball to law who stopped 2 Yards inside his on half when the flag went up.
"That was the loudest laughing he ever heard in a football ground".
2 weeks later the linesman was shot dead in the street by an unnamed family.

only 11 make the team,the rest can just but dream.
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 Re: Another Great Honest Mistake of our Time
Topic Originator: bigdonnie  
Date:   Mon 18 Jan 22:33

one of biggest cheating ever 1978 world cup argentina had to win by 5clear goals beat peru 6-0 quoriga peru goalie born in argentina robbed brazil that year argentina won the cup

donald mcneil
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 Re: Another Great Honest Mistake of our Time
Topic Originator: FA1968  
Date:   Mon 18 Jan 23:05

Unless I am missing something John Greig looks at least 5 yards offside when he scores, the goalie is at the edge of his penalty area and only 1 defender between John Greig and the goal line.

Offside Law might have been different back then right enough.



Post Edited (Mon 18 Jan 23:08)
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 Re: Another Great Honest Mistake of our Time
Topic Originator: sammer  
Date:   Mon 18 Jan 23:20

The offside law was actually stricter at that time. I`ve seen that situation happen a couple of times, when a scorer receives the ball closer to the goal than a keeper who has advanced but he is not flagged by the linesman. It`s an unusual event and so long as there is still one defender nearer to the goal line, amidst the confusion the scorer can get away with it.

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 Re: Another Great Honest Mistake of our Time
Topic Originator: GG Riva  
Date:   Tue 19 Jan 06:12

``One that will annoy you G.G. :)

Euro 2004

When Denmark and Sweden deliberately drew 2-2 to send Italy home
The Biscotto game.``

It didn`t annoy me then or now, BPP. Them`s the rules. I don`t think they broke any and no one can prove they deliberately agreed the 2-2 draw. The Italian press predicted the score and the n cried ``foul`` afterwards. There`s an Italian saying ``A thief is always afraid of being robbed.`` I remember thinking it might be worth sticking a tenner on 2-2 but never got round to it. :-(

``GG Riva why could we not have had that referee in the 2004 final.``

Aye, he might have helped. :-) Re the Bobo Balde handball, I was level with the 18 yard line and never saw it. Neither did those around me. Saw it on the TV highlights that night. Stevie Crawford was the only Par who shouted for it.

``Surely the greater story is that of Italian football officials caught cheating again .
Dundee in 1962 ,Dundee utd 1984 ,I`m sure there must be more Italian skulduggery going about .``

Very true, Salton. Sadly, the Italian mentality in football has always been that anything goes to get an edge and when any club is caught red-handed the defense is always ``Everybody else does it.``



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 Re: Another Great Honest Mistake of our Time
Topic Originator: GG Riva  
Date:   Tue 19 Jan 06:34

``No cheating bastards will I talk to,’ said Brian Clough famously, sticking his head out of the away dressing room at Stadio Comunale di Torino in 1973 after Juventus had defeated Derby County 3-1 in the European Cup. ‘I will not talk to cheating bastards,’ he added with typical rhetorical flourish to the waiting Italian journalists, before shutting the door behind him.
Brian Glanville, the doyen of British football writers, was an eyewitness and, as a multi linguist, was pressed into action by his Italian colleagues, demanding a translation. Glanville coyly claimed not to have fully understood.

Clough evidently had overheard his diplomatic efforts as he then burst out of the dressing room again. ‘Tell them what I said, Brian!’ Clough insisted. So he did; and a near international incident ensued.*``

Here`s the full account of that notorious game.

https://thesetpieces.com/latest-posts/how-close-did-clough-come-to-conquering-europe-with-derby/

There`s little doubt in my mind that Juventus used Haller to influence the referee. The irony is that they could probably have beaten Derby without any help. The Rams were going through a poor run of form.

``I clearly mind watching Dundee being shafted by planned "enemy action" in the San Siro - a squad of photographers took up tactical positions behind the Milan goal and fired off a barrage of flash bulbs whenever Dundee put the ball into the penalty area.``

Here`s a good article on Dundee`s European Cup run, VEE.

https://dundeefc.co.uk/club/history/our-triumphs/196263-european-cup-run/

Wait a minute? Toni Schumacher played in goal for Koln in the 2nd leg? Surely not the same man who played in goal for W. Germany at Spain 82?



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 Re: Another Great Honest Mistake of our Time
Topic Originator: GG Riva  
Date:   Tue 19 Jan 06:49

``Because on the night before Roma’s European Cup semi-final second leg against Dundee United in 1983-84, with the Serie A club desperate to overturn a 2-0 deficit in order to reach a final being played in their own stadium, referee Michel Vautrot was told to have dinner at a specific restaurant. The referee was also told to wait for a specific moment during the meal. That was when a waiter came over to say “telephone call for Mr Vautrot”. That would be the signal for 100m lire - £50,000 - to be handed over as a bribe.

These are the revelations of Roma director Riccardo Viola - son of the club’s late president Dino Viola - who said all of this on Italian TV company Mediaset Premium a few years ago, although it is claimed the attempt at a bribe failed.
That is true and a shameful fact,” Viola stated. “All of this was done because we had a difficult game ahead of us against Dundee United. Going out of the competition would have had serious repercussions.”

Dino Viola bragged about bribing the ref in a barber`s shop. He was approached before the game by two ex-players, who offered to approach the ref. They later claimed that they had conned Viola and split the £50k themselves. They were not believed. Viola and Roma were banned from Europe but that didn`t help Dundee United who lost the 2nd leg 3-0 to go out on agg. I watched the full game and don`t recall any outrageous refereeing decisions by Vautrot, but I do remember Ralph Milne blazing over an open goal from 8 yards early on with the score still at 0-0. With the away goal, Roma would have needed to score 5 to go through.............



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 Re: Another Great Honest Mistake of our Time
Topic Originator: GG Riva  
Date:   Tue 19 Jan 07:10

veteraneastender, Mon 18 Jan 17:11

Here is the refused penalty claim that so incensed the Celtic players, and the resulting goal from John Grieg which (from their perspective) added insult to injury !!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3jxuuYOgt-Y

The article omits to mention the other official suspended by the SFA after the Milan shopping incident for some reason.



``It`s really hard to judge if that`s a penalty or not from the camera angle, it might be but I wouldn`t say it`s an utterly disgraceful decision or a clear sign of biased.

Pretty disgraceful from the Celtic team though, let themselves and the fans down. Play to the whistle! Keeper doesn`t know where he`s going.``

It is very hard to judge at normal speed, Grant, so I managed to stop start the clip on my PC using the pause function and I`m now convinced it was of the stonewall variety. The reaction of the Celtic players supports this view - they knew it was a penalty. Unprofessional they may have been in not playing to the whistle, but human nature has to be taken into account. Remember most of the players in that game would have been Scottish, so an OF derby would have meant much more to them than it does now, as many of the foreign players don`t fully get the sectarian fanaticism and hatred surrounding the fixture now. Of course, it may have been a genuine mistake by JRP Gordon, but to then allow Rangers to score a blatantly offside goal must have had the Celtic players and fans absolutely seething. (A similar incident happened at EEP in 66. The Pars fought back from 0-4 at HT and 2-5 after 75 mins v Hibs, to tie the game at 5-5. They then forced in a late winner - I was behind the goal - but the ref didn`t think it had crossed the line and while most of the Pars team chased him to protest, Hibs ran up the park and scored. 5-6.)

Who was the other banned official, VEE? Extravagant gifts for the referees by the big Italian clubs were the norm for the big European games. Fur coats, Rolex watches, female escorts......



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 Re: Another Great Honest Mistake of our Time
Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks  
Date:   Tue 19 Jan 09:17

Small point of order GG but with the away goal it would have made the aggregate score 3-0 so it would only have been 4 goals that Roma would have needed.

We all hate poverty, war, and injustice.
Unlike the rest of you squares.
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 Re: Another Great Honest Mistake of our Time
Topic Originator: Buspasspar  
Date:   Tue 19 Jan 09:51

``GG Riva why could we not have had that referee in the 2004 final.``

Aye, he might have helped. :-) Re the Bobo Balde handball, I was level with the 18 yard line and never saw it. Neither did those around me. Saw it on the TV highlights that night. Stevie Crawford was the only Par who shouted for it.

I must have been sitting quite close to you that day G.G. perhaps a wee bit nearer the goal from the 18 yard line

Both myself and Son stood and shouted penalty as we both saw it ....the rest as they say is history :(

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 Re: Another Great Honest Mistake of our Time
Topic Originator: veteraneastender  
Date:   Tue 19 Jan 11:48

"Who was the other banned official, VEE? Extravagant gifts for the referees by the big Italian clubs were the norm for the big European games. Fur coats, Rolex watches, female escorts......"

https://worldreferee.com/referee/thomas_kyle/

According to the story put out by A.C. Milan, the Scottish refereeing trio had no Italian Lira, only Pound Sterling, which the store (not unnaturally) would not accept - so they stepped in to settle the cost and "could not" expect their guests to repay them in due course.

Aye right - is that the best fairy tale they could embrace ?

No wonder the Park Gardens` suits gave them their P45s !!!



Post Edited (Tue 19 Jan 11:50)
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 Re: Another Great Honest Mistake of our Time
Topic Originator: veteraneastender  
Date:   Tue 19 Jan 12:39

"Dennis law has many a story about Italian Refs, part of the reason he spent such a short time at Torino.
When playing in the `local derby`, he was kicked, kneed and elbowed for the whole game. Yet his biggest memory was that every time he made a run, the right side linesman would raise his flag for offside.
After taking 15 minutes of pressure from Juventus, Joe Baker played a through ball to law who stopped 2 Yards inside his on half when the flag went up.
"That was the loudest laughing he ever heard in a football ground".
2 weeks later the linesman was shot dead in the street by an unnamed family."

Ben - do you have any more details of that murder ?

I`ve read a few stories about Law and Baker in Italy - never heard of that incident.

A few months ago a lower league referee, and his partner, were murdered in Italy.

https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/italian-referee-model-girlfriend-stabbed-22731992

Of course, it may have been unrelated to his officiating activities.

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 Re: Another Great Honest Mistake of our Time
Topic Originator: GG Riva  
Date:   Tue 19 Jan 13:15

Quote:

veteraneastender, Tue 19 Jan 12:39

A few months ago a lower league referee, and his partner, were murdered in Italy.

https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/italian-referee-model-girlfriend-stabbed-22731992

Of course, it may have been unrelated to his officiating activities.


I've done some digging for you, VEE and I'm relieved to report it wasn't anything to do with his refereeing. (I thought it might have to do with criminals betting on a fixed game which didn't go as arranged.)

A 21 year old student admitted to the double murder after he was identified by a neighbour walking away from the scene, with a bloodstained hunting knife in his hand. Apparently the rented the ref's flat for a time (along with the ref's model girlfriend.) When the ref decided to move in with his girlfriend, the student was asked to move out. This clearly upset him as he told police that the couple had to die because they were "too happy together."

With regards to JRP Gordon and assistant Rollo Kyle, I wonder why the other linesman wasn't implicated or banned.

Eta. Milan's explanation of the bribe smacks of "make up something the wife will believe." She would have to be a pretty gullible, mind you. 🙂



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Post Edited (Tue 19 Jan 13:19)
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 Re: Another Great Honest Mistake of our Time
Topic Originator: sammer  
Date:   Tue 19 Jan 14:06

It looks like the third linesman was bang to rights as well. The going rate for a Scottish ‘bung’ seems to have remained pretty constant at £2,000 per head, allowing for inflation over the years. There’s even a Fife connection in the roll of dishonour below. Jimmy Gauld, of early 1960s infamy, was from Aberdeen and very briefly played for St. Johnstone whose manager Bobby Brown claimed to have sensed Gauld was bad news and moved him on smartly.

1924 – John Browning, former Scotland player, and Archibald Kyle of Rangers, Blackburn and Airdrie, are sentenced to 60 days’ hard labour for offering Bo’Ness players £30 to fix Second Division match with Lochgelly

1932 – Former Montrose captain Gavin Hamilton given 60 days’ jail for offering £40-£50 to Montrose player David Mooney to fix home match against Edinburgh City

1965 – England’s most sensational match-fixing scandal. Ten League professionals are found guilty of match-fixing. Jimmy Gauld, an inside-forward for Charlton, Everton, Plymouth, Swindon and Mansfield between 1955 and 1960, is jailed for four years, the others for between four and 15 months. The players include England’s Peter Swan (Sheffield Wednesday) and Tony Kay (Everton, but previously with Wednesday) and their Sheffield Wednesday colleague David Layne

1978 – Scotland’s World Cup referee, John Gordon, and linesmen, Rollo Kyle, together with David McCartney, are suspended by Scottish FA after admitting they accepted presents worth £1,000 from Milan before a UEFA Cup match with Levski Spartak. Milan, fined £8,000 by UEFA, had drawn 1-1 in Bulgaria and won 3-0 at home

sammer
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 Re: Another Great Honest Mistake of our Time
Topic Originator: veteraneastender  
Date:   Tue 19 Jan 15:01

Thanks for the Columbo style investigation GG - I suspected the football referee angle was open to question.

Ref. Sammer`s interesting list of bad boys - Peter Swan was reportedly told by Alf Ramsey that he was a top choice for England`s 1966 WC squad.

What might have been ?

Incidentally, his partner in crime, Tony Kay, signed for Everton only a few weeks after the Pars dumped them out of the Fairs Cities - and then captained them to their first top division championship since before WW2.

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 Re: Another Great Honest Mistake of our Time
Topic Originator: sammer  
Date:   Tue 19 Jan 16:02

To clear up the ‘Toni Schumacher’ issue: Toni Schumacher was indeed the Cologne goalkeeper against Dundee in the 4-1 victory in 1962. Goalkeeper Harald Anton Schumacher, no relation, joined Cologne ten years later and was dubbed ‘Toni’ to avoid confusion with a player who shared his first name- and probably in tribute to his predecessor. Tagging a youngster after a famous player is a well established tradition as in ‘Dixie’ Deans of Motherwell/Celtic and John ‘Yogi’ Hughes of Falkirk/Hibs/Celtic.

Harald ‘Toni’ Schumacher went on to become better known than his namesake and achieved notoriety at the 1982 World Cup when he smashed into a French player, concussing him, causing neck damage and dislodging two teeth. ‘I’ll pay for the crowns’ quipped Toni on his way to a WC final which was lost, as was the one he played in 1986 in Mexico. This was no one off incident. Schumacher, a few months later, raked the back of Rangers’ Jim Bett with his studs, as Cologne handed out a 5-0 hammering. In a French poll Schumacher once nudged out Adolf Hitler as the most hated man in French history.

sammer
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 Re: Another Great Honest Mistake of our Time
Topic Originator: Buspasspar  
Date:   Tue 19 Jan 16:27

All out assault sammer :-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGq7VcaHoqo

wee bit better quality :-


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vacqMCKrLlE


Post Edited (Tue 19 Jan 16:29)
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