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 Jim Flemming RIP
Topic Originator: Latics for life  
Date:   Wed 10 Feb 16:41

I come to this post a little late but I feel I must add to these posts. The latics I support is Wigan Athletic. At the time Jim played for us in the early 70`s we were in the Northern Premier League and Jim was a boyhood hero of mine. In later life I met him and his lovely wife Isabel in Spain where I am honoured to say we became pals. I met Jim through another Pars legend from the 60`s James MaClean who was the captain in the 1965 season where they so narrowly missed out on a league and cup double. James is 85 this August but sadly like so many ex pros from that era he for the last five years or so has suffered the onset of dementia.
These are two lovely men who I grew very fond of.
James would often tell me stories and one of his favourites was regarding Alex Ferguson and the 65 cup final. In those days there were no subs and alex had played in every round . as James was captain and close to Ferguson the manager asked if he would tell him he had not been picked for the final. James explained to him in colourful language he could do it himself as he was manager. James then disappeared from earshot before the inevitable outburst !

Just as a footnote Jim did not get picked for the 65 final either which may go some way to explain the result !
RIP Jim A pleasure to watch you play and an honour to call you a pal



Post Edited (Wed 10 Feb 20:52)
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 Re: Jim Flemming RIP
Topic Originator: Raymie the Legend  
Date:   Wed 10 Feb 16:59

Nice post




It's bloody tough being a legend
Ron Atkinson - 1983
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 Re: Jim Flemming RIP
Topic Originator: Parsweep  
Date:   Wed 10 Feb 17:20

Lovely post .
Keep well Lactic for life

Bobvo

Post Edited (Wed 10 Feb 17:21)
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 Re: Jim Flemming RIP
Topic Originator: helensburghpar  
Date:   Wed 10 Feb 17:34

Thanks for posting. Lovely post. I`ve been to Wigan`s ground twice and it`s a nice stadium. Went to the away fans bar in the ground and it was great. Also mudhutter my favourite fanzine.

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 Re: Jim Flemming RIP
Topic Originator: veteraneastender  
Date:   Wed 10 Feb 18:28

https://www.glasgowtimes.co.uk/news/18190326.wife-former-dunfermline-athletic-footballer-jim-maclean-convinced-heading-ball-caused-dementia/

Really sad.

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 Re: Jim Flemming RIP
Topic Originator: veteraneastender  
Date:   Wed 10 Feb 18:42

Lactic - Jim is in this Partick Thistle training session photo 1963.



Also quite a few well know Scottish players of that era, I doubt you`ll recognise though.



Post Edited (Wed 10 Feb 18:43)
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 Re: Jim Flemming RIP
Topic Originator: Buspasspar  
Date:   Wed 10 Feb 18:50

Lovely post LFL ..... Great memories both happy and sad for you

Davy McParland in there vee




Post Edited (Wed 10 Feb 18:51)
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 Re: Jim Flemming RIP
Topic Originator: veteraneastender  
Date:   Wed 10 Feb 19:04

Aye - Davy is there. I always associate him, as manager, with PT beating Celtic 4-1 in the 1971 League Cup Final.

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 Re: Jim Flemming RIP
Topic Originator: Latics for life  
Date:   Wed 10 Feb 20:44

Aye
These pictures of Jimmy (Maclean) from veteraneastenders post re dementia bring it home to me how he has slipped slowly away.
I have known Jimmy almost 20 years and we used to meet up in Spain and we loved nothing better than a few jars across the road in the bars while we watched a match. Bless him he even used to endure the England with me. and believe me if you are english you do endure them games !
2 years ago he came to my sons wedding although it broke my heart it was a joy to see him and he has never lost his wonderful spirit.
When we were in Spain last he could never follow football but he loved the old john Wayne movies. So we would have a movie night. send the women, Mary and Alison shopping. If you know Mary that was not difficult. We would then get out the `Sweeties` Watch the old Westerns with John Wayne And Gabby Hayes.
I once watched him hold a crisp for 20 minutes he was so lost in the moment.
Strange that Jim Flemming was as sharp as a tack until his sad passing but that could have been down to him being a winger and never having headed those heavy wet casey balls. about time these old pros were compensated in some way for the damage and loss they have suffered



Post Edited (Wed 10 Feb 20:59)
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 Re: Jim Flemming RIP
Topic Originator: sammer  
Date:   Wed 10 Feb 21:49

Jim Fleming will never be forgotten by Pars fans of my generation since he played in the highest scoring team we ever had in the top division. The now famous Alex Ferguson played 3 years at EEP but the best target man he ever played alongside was Jim Fleming: Fergie managed 31 goals in 30 league games playing alongside Fleming in season 1965-66.

I am a Roy Barry man myself, but my father maintained till the day he died that Jim McLean was the best centre half he had ever seen play for the Pars. Many Ayr United fans from the late 1950s have said the same about his performances for them when he controlled top centre forwards at at a time when Ayr were a second division team. Jock Stein was a centre half himself and no mean judge of what the position required and it was him who signed Jim McLean from Ayr United. The lowest number of goals ever conceded by the Pars in top division football was when Jim McLean played centre half.

So Jim Fleming was part of a forward line which holds the Pars scoring record and Jim McLean was part of the Pars defence which holds the club record for goals conceded.

sammer
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 Re: Jim Flemming RIP
Topic Originator: sammer  
Date:   Wed 10 Feb 21:59

Trying to identify players from the Partick photo. I think Jim Fleming is back left, Ian Cowan front right and next to him Alex Wright, all who had a Pars connection.

sammer
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 Re: Jim Flemming RIP
Topic Originator: Latics for life  
Date:   Wed 10 Feb 22:02

Sammer
thank you for these wonderful words about two wonderful men, to me just my pals
I do remember during that period in the 60s Scotland was world renound for its combative centre halves. the thing about jimmy is that for a centre half he has the skinniest legs you have ever seen. He is a vey modest man but i often said to him you must have been some player to play centre half with those legs. I asked Jim flemming if jimmy was a dirty player he said `oh no, but he was a hard man. to be though of as a hard man at centre half in 60s scottish football you had to be one hell of a guy !

frank Hendley
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 Re: Jim Flemming RIP
Topic Originator: sammer  
Date:   Wed 10 Feb 22:13

The pleasure is all mine. These men influenced us not just how how to play football but how to live our lives. For many Pars fans of my generation I think that is a true statement.

Jim McLean was naturally hard so he did not need weights in the gym or steroids like todays centre halves. He took control of situations which is the hallmark of a good defender- he did not wait so see what might happen, he dealt with it before it did. At 5`10 Jim McLean was a harder centre half to play against than 6`4 giants like McGuire at Man Utd who lack nous.

Regarding brain damage I think the jury is still out although much more data is required. I spoke to Roy Barry two years ago and, being sharp as a tack, he became quite angry at the suggestion heading a ball contributed to Alzheimer`s.

sammer
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 Re: Jim Flemming RIP
Topic Originator: veteraneastender  
Date:   Wed 10 Feb 22:32

Jim Fleming is back right Sammer.

I`m thinking second from left back row might be Sir Fergie`s brother Martin ? He was on the club`s books for a while but never made the first team.

George Smith, third in from left back row - his son Trevor played for the Pars.

On his immediate left is Donnie McKinnon, twin brother of Rangers & Scotland centre half Ronnie.

That photo might (?) have been just before the "big freeze" season 62-63 which many old timer Jags fans reckon lost them the chance of winning the league.

https://www.glasgowtimes.co.uk/sport/other_football/15003820.did-enforced-winter-shutdown-in-season-1962-63-deny-partick-thistle-of-league-title/

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 Re: Jim Flemming RIP
Topic Originator: sammer  
Date:   Wed 10 Feb 23:02

Sorry VEE,

I got my bearings wrong. I meant to say extreme back right for Jim Fleming and front left for Ian Cowan and Alex Wright.

The big freeze of 1962-63 (why did we not shut down society then?) was claimed by at least three teams to have cost them the championship: Partick Thistle, Hearts and Leicester City in England. Leicester did make the FA Cup Final as compensation but met Denis Law at the height of his powers in a 3-1 defeat. Folklore has it that Willie Hamilton of Hearts drinking binge during the three month lay off in winter 1962-63 blunted the edge of his terrific talent permanently.

sammer
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 Re: Jim Flemming RIP
Topic Originator: Latics for life  
Date:   Thu 11 Feb 08:25

So heartwarming to see the high regard in which these two wonderful guys are still held today by members of a certain generation.
As we are sharing these memories I think we must all be of a certain age group and although I would love to share more wonderful memories I feel I must raise that subject- yes covid.
I had it before Xmas and lost 2 stone in less than 2 weeks and was never much overweight. At one point they called me an ambulance and it came blue lights and all but i refused to go. Hospital is no place to be when you are ill!
We must all take extra care but I want to share something I have learned. About 10 days before I became ill I started taking high doses of Vitamin D and I swear to this day it saved my life.
I had been watching a GP on You Tube called Dr John Campbell. He had been looking into studies done in hospitals around the world and came up with some compelling evidence of the benefits of Vitamin D
One example was of a large hospital that had 76 patient with similar Covid symptoms. 50 were given high doses of Vit D and the other 26 none
Of the 50 on vit D NON died and only one went into intensive care but did not die. Of the other 26 not on Vit D 13 went into intensive care and 2 died. A small but compelling trail. there are other studies which support this fact.
So please all stay safe take Vitam D at double dose. It won`t harm and is as cheap as chips
God bless and keep you all safe



Post Edited (Thu 11 Feb 08:27)
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 Re: Jim Flemming RIP
Topic Originator: Grant  
Date:   Thu 11 Feb 12:56

Quote:

sammer, Wed 10 Feb 22:13

.

Regarding brain damage I think the jury is still out although much more data is required. I spoke to Roy Barry two years ago and, being sharp as a tack, he became quite angry at the suggestion heading a ball contributed to Alzheimer`s.



I've wondered if the reason we associate dementia to footballers is because as they are usually fitter members of society, and as such may live a bit longer they're more susceptible to live to the age where they in turn become more susceptible?

An absolute vile condition to suffer from, I hope we find the solution to it.
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 Re: Jim Flemming RIP
Topic Originator: Latics for life  
Date:   Thu 11 Feb 13:27

Quote:

sammer, Wed 10 Feb 22:13

.

Regarding brain damage I think the jury is still out although much more data is required. I spoke to Roy Barry two years ago and, being sharp as a tack, he became quite angry at the suggestion heading a ball contributed to Alzheimer`s.

I think there is definite link with some players who played certain roles. when the great Martin Peters Died recently after suffering dementia for several years his great pal Sir Geoff Hurst said it was not the heading in the game that was really the issue but the hours and hours spent on heading practice in training.
Jimmy Maclean once told me as a youngster he would spend hours just heading a ball against a wall. aiming to do 500 headers per session with a 1950s ball. I have headache just thinking about that.
I suffered 2 catastrophic head injuries in early life that have always caused me memory issues but with age these last 2 years have been far worse especially for my concentration and short term memory.
Any hard or prolonged head contact is sure to have long term effect on the brain tissue



Post Edited (Thu 11 Feb 13:28)
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 Re: Jim Flemming RIP
Topic Originator: Latics for life  
Date:   Thu 11 Feb 14:58

Hi
Yes Wigans ground at the DW on Robin Park is a nice stadium. But my best memories go back to the early 70`s when we played at springfield Park. We had a great non league side described by the papers as the arsenal of the non league. A real compliment at the time. Although non league we regularly had attendance of 2-3,000. I loved it because it was so open with no segregation. you could watch Jim Flemming and the lads attacking one goal. Have you butty and flask at half time and then walk round to watch them attack the other goal. I used to love the tuesday night matches under the floodlighs. We bought them 2nd hand from Man City. The old stadium long ago made way for an housing estate.
But they are Great memories I will carry with me always

frank Hendley
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 Re: Jim Flemming RIP
Topic Originator: McCaig`s Tower  
Date:   Thu 11 Feb 16:19

I love hearing stories from the old days – Fleming and MacLean were (just) before my time, but I remember some of the other names mentioned.

Speaking of Springfield Park, that was one of the few English grounds I’ve been too (and like several others, I think it has disappeared).

I was living in Manchester at the time, and a pal of mine was a Chelsea fan – who were due to play at Wigan in the FA Cup. He persuaded me to go with him – as it turned out I was useful for getting the drinks in, as most of the pubs were refusing entry to Chelsea fans, and having a London accent Frank wouldn’t have been served.

As for the game, it was 5-0 to Chelsea – Kerry Dixon got 4 and David Speedie got the other, I think.

There were running battles in the streets of Wigan after the match – Chelsea fans in those days had a reputation for not letting anything get in their way, and there were loads of Wigan lads looking to give the soft southerners a doing. In all the skirmishes Frank and I were separated and I beat a hasty retreat – wandering the streets of Wigan for what seemed like hours until it had all calmed down. There was still a police “ring of steel” around the railway station, but I managed to persuade them to let me get in (and found Frank waiting for me). Happy days.

(`Mon the Athletic)

Post Edited (Thu 11 Feb 16:20)
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 Re: Jim Flemming RIP
Topic Originator: GG Riva  
Date:   Fri 12 Feb 08:10

First time I recall Jim Fleming starting for the Pars was in a 4-3 win v Partick. While this may not sound particularly dramatic, the team had been on something of a goal drought and Fleming`s inclusion (along with Bert Paton) seemed to open the floodgates and the goals began to flow with 5 v St Johnstone,Boldklub Copenhagen and St Mirren, 6 v Hamilton and Clyde, another 4 v Boldklub, 5 v Stirling, 6 v Motherwell and a 3-2 win over Rangers.

Fleming featured among the goals in many of these games. He was a very intelligent player who could play centrally or out wide to good effect. I was quite surprised and disappointed when he was allowed to leave for Hearts, which was a downward move at the time.

RIP Jim.



Not your average Sunday League player.
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 Re: Jim Flemming RIP
Topic Originator: Latics for life  
Date:   Fri 12 Feb 08:25

Thanks for reminding me of that chelsea hammering. almost caused a relapse of my PTSD. That is Post Traumatic Score Disorder
Not suffered from this since were stuffed 9-1 by tottenham on our spell in the premier league. It was eased then by beating them 1-0 in the next meeting.
As someone used to say, `it`s a funny old game`
Back when we played Chelsea, I think it was early 80`s we were just establishing ourselves as a fully fledge team in the lower leagues. If i remember right we held them at stamford bridge and fancied ourselves for an upset. Only thing upset that night were the Wigan fans
We had a decent side at lower league level. I remember a defender Joe Hinnigan who moved to Sunderland then in the top flight. A talented played called Micky worsick, a dynamite midfielder called Tommy Gore and a Scottish centre Half by the name of Colin Methvern.
We did get some issues with Yobs like all clubs and sadly the installation of segregated area, very sad



Post Edited (Fri 12 Feb 08:36)
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 Re: Jim Flemming RIP
Topic Originator: Latics for life  
Date:   Fri 12 Feb 08:32

I think Jim Flemming suffered from the changing football ideas that was seeing the end of wing play. This got worse after Ramseys `Wingless Wonders` won the world cup. I only became pals with Jim in his later life. He always struck me as a quiet thoughtful person whos replies were always made after considered thought.
My other `Pars Pal` James Maclean, a lovely warm fellow but i think even he would have conceded his `Brains were in his Boots`
In fact I do remember James` Wife telling me that one of his managers nicknamed him `Fullshi` which she said was short for `Full shilling` which the manager obviously considered him not to be !
James however insisted it was short for `Full Shift` as he always put the effort in 100% match or training. the manager was the obviously unaware of the routine Jimmy and some of his pals had when out running. It was not unusual for them to get recognised and be offered a lift back to the ground by some passing van driver that they would gladly accept. Jumping out of the Van some way from the ground and doing a bit of a run just to look the part. no cameras on phones or social media in those days

RIP Jim a pleasure to watch you play and an honour to call you a Pal



Post Edited (Fri 12 Feb 09:39)
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 Re: Jim Flemming RIP
Topic Originator: Townsvillepar  
Date:   Mon 15 Feb 00:15

I was at the 1965 Cup Final as a young lad, and still feel the pain. I remember being surprised at Fergie being left out, and in one of his books he refers to that day. He was hugely disappointed to miss out and said that after that, he never had any problems in dropping the big names when he managed Man United. I wasn`t too disappointed when his replacement John McLaughlin scored a great goal in the first half to put the Pars 2 1 up at half time. Billy McNeills winning header to win 3 2 broke my heart.
I also liked Jim Fleming as a player for the Pars and Jim McLean was a great centre half (I agree with Sammer though that Roy Barry was the best). Jim McLean even scored a goal in the 6 2 in at Valencia, that was a great night.

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 Re: Jim Flemming RIP
Topic Originator: Latics for life  
Date:   Tue 16 Feb 15:31

Yes Jimmy did mention he scored against Valencia. He never mentioned `the other goal` though.
I have seen clips of the game on youtube. If I remember Valencia won 5-1 in Spain and lost 6-2 in a frosty Scotland. In those days there was no pen shoot outs or away goals count double so i think Jimmy said the decider was played in Portugal , Valencia winning 2-0 in front of almost no fans. that is why I think that idea of neutral ground was done away with.
Also in that game was a very young Alex Edwards. I have met him and he is to say the least a more `marmite` character. I think there are no half measures either you admire his attitude or it gets on you waz as we say in Wigan.
Sad to say he recently lost his lovely wife to cancer. Aside from being a saint she really was a lovely woman through and through

frank Hendley
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 Re: Jim Flemming RIP
Topic Originator: GG Riva  
Date:   Tue 16 Feb 18:14

Quote:

Latics for life, Tue 16 Feb 15:31

Yes Jimmy did mention he scored against Valencia. He never mentioned `the other goal` though.
I have seen clips of the game on youtube. If I remember Valencia won 5-1 in Spain and lost 6-2 in a frosty Scotland. In those days there was no pen shoot outs or away goals count double so i think Jimmy said the decider was played in Portugal , Valencia winning 2-0 in front of almost no fans. that is why I think that idea of neutral ground was done away with.
Also in that game was a very young Alex Edwards. I have met him and he is to say the least a more `marmite` character. I think there are no half measures either you admire his attitude or it gets on you waz as we say in Wigan.
Sad to say he recently lost his lovely wife to cancer. Aside from being a saint she really was a lovely woman through and through


Valencia won their home game 4-0, Lactics and nobody gave the Pars a snowball's chance in the 2nd leg. Truth be told, the pitch was frozen and the game shouldn't have gone ahead. Valencia would surely not have leaked 6 goals on a normal surface. They won the play off, in Portugal, 1-0 and went on to win the Fairs Cup that season.

Alex Edwards, is the finest footballer ever to play for the Pars, but his character is not on a par with his ability. Did you mean Edwards has lost his wife or Jim McLean?



Not your average Sunday League player.
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 Re: Jim Flemming RIP
Topic Originator: Latics for life  
Date:   Tue 16 Feb 19:31

I bow to your superior memory re the actual scores v Valencia
It is Alex Edwards wife who has sadly passed. I do remember her name as being Elley but not sure of the spelling. Only in he company 2 or 3 times but a very warm nice person
James Macleans wife Mary is alive and kicking although she text my wife only today that their car had been in an accident and been written off. thankfully her and Jimmy are both unhurt.
Yes I do not like to speak ill of Alex especially in the circumstances. All I can say is that I met his Son Neil who is a firefighter and a nicer guy you could not wish to meet. Chalk and cheese



Post Edited (Wed 17 Feb 08:30)
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 Re: Jim Flemming RIP
Topic Originator: GG Riva  
Date:   Wed 17 Feb 17:47

Quote:

Latics for life, Tue 16 Feb 19:31

I bow to your superior memory re the actual scores v Valencia
It is Alex Edwards wife who has sadly passed. I do remember her name as being Elley but not sure of the spelling. Only in he company 2 or 3 times but a very warm nice person
James Macleans wife Mary is alive and kicking although she text my wife only today that their car had been in an accident and been written off. thankfully her and Jimmy are both unhurt.
Yes I do not like to speak ill of Alex especially in the circumstances. All I can say is that I met his Son Neil who is a firefighter and a nicer guy you could not wish to meet. Chalk and cheese



Sad to hear about Alex Edwards loss. Edwards will be 75 (He was 16 v Valencia when he made his debut in 62) so his wife was probably a few years younger. Alex has a dour personality, but he's OK otherwise. He has a way of greeting folk which some might find offensive, but that's his way of being funny. He was born too early. If he'd been at his peak now, he'd have been a millionaire several times over. He occasionally comes along to EEP for the odd match.



Not your average Sunday League player.
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 Re: Jim Flemming RIP
Topic Originator: Latics for life  
Date:   Wed 17 Feb 20:11

I certainly don`t think he is an horrible character but he can be overbearing. His ego is twice as big as he is. He likes to talk about what he has got and wealth seems so important to him. To me it is of no matter who has or does not have. a persons character is far more important. Perhaps it is unfair to compare him with the likes of James or Jim. two wonderful characters who remind us of a different era and the likes which of we will sadly never see again



Post Edited (Wed 17 Feb 20:13)
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