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 Subbing the Substitute
Topic Originator: GG Riva  
Date:   Mon 22 Feb 09:16

Substitutes were introduced in league football in the 1965/66 season. Initially, only one sub per team and only for an injury. Two years later, two subs were permitted and for any reason, as players had often feigned injury, under instruction from their manager, so he could get a fresh player on, or make a tactical change. I believe the first Scottish manager to sub a sub was our very own George Farm, but I can't remember the players involved. Perhaps one of our Dotnet senators can?

The most recent subbing of a sub, Chelsea's Hudson-Odoi, raised a few eyebrows on MOTD at the weekend. Gary Lineker, Danny Murphy and Martin Keown all felt Hudson-Odoi had performed reasonably well after being introduced at half-time, but more importantly they were unanimous that Thomas Tuchel's decision was a massive own goal. The match commentator, Jonathan Pierce, himself a former player, described the decision as "brutal."

The general consensus was that the substitution and the post match criticism by Tuchel amounted to a public humiliation of the player which could damage his confidence. The MOTD panel were also of the opinion that the rest of the squad would not be impressed by the new manager's actions which belong very much to a bygone era.

Is Tuchel the new Special One or Special Two?



Not your average Sunday League player.
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 Re: Subbing the Substitute
Topic Originator: Jbob  
Date:   Mon 22 Feb 09:54

Tuchel is going to crash and burn. Treats players like crap.

Bobs of the world unite
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 Re: Subbing the Substitute
Topic Originator: Jeffery  
Date:   Mon 22 Feb 10:01

Some players need that kick and react well to it while others it would damage their confidence or they might take the huff. A big part of being a good manager is knowing if someone reacts well to the carrot or the stick.

Tuchel can't have worked with Hudson-Odoi long enough to know which works best for him so it's a stupid move.
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 Re: Subbing the Substitute
Topic Originator: Raymie the Legend  
Date:   Mon 22 Feb 11:08

Hudson-Odoi is English and is overhyped by the English media, in the same way that Sterling, Sancho, Vardy etc are, so I think not as much would have been made of it if it was, say an Anthony Martial?

I do agree that it`s not nice to have done what he did, but his priority was to win the game and do whatever he felt necessary to achieve that and if he believed that CHO was not doing what he asked of him, then why persevere?

More often than not, players start and are clearly having a bad game, but they don`t get withdrawn until half time. By then, the game could be lost?
I get it`s done to protect the player from the ignominy of being subbed early, but at what cost?




It's bloody tough being a legend
Ron Atkinson - 1983
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 Re: Subbing the Substitute
Topic Originator: dafc  
Date:   Mon 22 Feb 11:24

Raymie has it spot on, if CHO has been on 30 mins and not done anything of course you make changes to suit the team, while it ain’t great he won’t be the last player. Team comes first.

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 Re: Subbing the Substitute
Topic Originator: Raymie the Legend  
Date:   Mon 22 Feb 11:39

Some examples of previous early substitutions, whilst it`s not subbing the sub in all cases, it`s examples of doing what the manager feels is necessary to change the course of a game.


José Mourinho felt compelled to apologise to Eric Dier after substituting him after just 29 minutes of Tottenham’s 4-2 Champions League win over Olympiakos, which ensured the club’s qualification for the last 16 of the competition.

Spurs were awful in the first-half – they trailed 2-0 after 19 minutes – and Mourinho said he had swapped Dier for the more attacking midfielder Christian Eriksen for the balance of the team. He already had one deep-sitting midfielder on the pitch in Harry Winks.


Tottenham hit back to secure progress after poor start against Olympiakos
Read more
Dele Alli gave Spurs a lifeline with a goal in first-half stoppage-time before Harry Kane and Serge Aurier put them in front after the interval. Kane rounded off the scoring with his second of the evening – his 20th goal in 24 Champions League appearances.

“The most difficult moment of the game for me was not when Olympiakos scored the first or second goal but when I made the change in the first-half,” Mourinho said. “Hurt the player but hurt myself. It’s important the player understands and I was lucky that my choice was a very intelligent boy who has a good understanding of what the team is. It was not about his performance.

“We were losing 2-0 in a very difficult moment and one positional midfield player was more than enough. I apologise to Eric, in spite of the fact he knows I did it for the team and not with the intention to hurt him.”




Chelsea midfielder Nemanja Matic has admitted to the Mirror that he had to rebuild his confidence after humiliation at the hands of Jose Mourinho early last season.

The Serb was sent on the pitch as a half time substitute in the defeat against Southampton last October, but only lasted 28 minutes as his Portuguese boss dragged him off again.




Post Edited (Mon 22 Feb 11:40)
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 Re: Subbing the Substitute
Topic Originator: Raymie the Legend  
Date:   Mon 22 Feb 11:43

https://www.standard.co.uk/sport/football/chelsea-fc-news-thomas-tuchel-callum-hudson-odoi-substitute-talks-b920681.html




It's bloody tough being a legend
Ron Atkinson - 1983
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 Re: Subbing the Substitute
Topic Originator: McCaig`s Tower  
Date:   Mon 22 Feb 11:54

I didn`t think two subs were permitted until 1972/73 in Scotland (and much later in England). I like the idea of a .net Senate though.

People may remember the 5-2 game at the San Starko - I seem to recall Mark McCulloch was being given a torrid time early doors and got hooked in the first half, with Ivo den Bieman (who was more renowned as a forward player) replacing him. Possibly Kenny Ward`s finest hour in a Pars shirt.

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 Re: Subbing the Substitute
Topic Originator: londonparsfan  
Date:   Mon 22 Feb 11:56

I'm convinced he would have been in the revered category if he hadn't suffered those horrendous injuries.
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 Re: Subbing the Substitute
Topic Originator: Lambo1885  
Date:   Mon 22 Feb 12:43

"Hudson-Odoi is English and is overhyped by the English media, in the same way that Sterling, Sancho, Vardy etc are, so I think not as much would have been made of it if it was, say an Anthony Martial?"

Beat me to it Raymie. Similar to how the media were getting so upset at Lampards sacking

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 Re: Subbing the Substitute
Topic Originator: aaaaaaaaaargh  
Date:   Mon 22 Feb 17:25

McCaig`s Tower - I was just about to post something about that Raith game, but I thought it was Den Bieman who got hooked. Whoever it was, he was having a honking game at right-back, I think. Husdon-Odoi wasn`t playing that badly, so I suppose we will see if Tuchel got it right or not in the next few weeks or months/

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 Re: Subbing the Substitute
Topic Originator: AJ27  
Date:   Mon 22 Feb 17:28

This happened to a young centre forward just a couple of weeks ago (I think with West Ham?) - he was on Twitter later saying how grateful he was for the opportunity and that he now knows just how much he needs to improve to become a regular.

Andy J
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 Re: Subbing the Substitute
Topic Originator: Berry  
Date:   Mon 22 Feb 19:28

Don’t really see the problem of subbing a sub to be honest.

If you’re making a sub you’re trying to improve the performance of your team, if that sub isn’t doing what is being asked of them or is simply just not effective then you take them off and try something else.

Particularly for the recent Chelsea example, for how young he is and the wages he’s on he really shouldn’t be having any sleepless nights over it.
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 Re: Subbing the Substitute
Topic Originator: EEP  
Date:   Mon 22 Feb 20:14

If your trying to win and you bring on a sub to improve the team and he doesn’t then he has to come off!
This might give the guy a kick up the erse he needs to start training/playing better.

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 Re: Subbing the Substitute
Topic Originator: LazyBW  
Date:   Mon 22 Feb 20:16

A sub being subbed reminded me of Chris McGroarty coming on for Hamish French about 10 minutes into a League Cup match against Queens Park years ago. He was still a bit of a whipper snapper at this point so by the end of the game he was subbed off not due to a poor performance, but simply because he was tired.

It must be a hard decision for a manager to make in the examples cited by others above though.
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 Re: Subbing the Substitute
Topic Originator: GG Riva  
Date:   Tue 23 Feb 07:26

I know that Raymie and a few other dotnetters have played football at a professional level and certainly much higher than me, but I did work with young people for my entire career. I know how fragile confidence and self esteem can be and how easily that can be destroyed by the words or actions of someone in a position of authority.

Now I`m not suggesting that Hodson-Odoi is a delicate little flower, but I find the suggestion that Lineker and Co`s defence of the player was motivated by the fact that he`s English, an extremely cynical point of view. I saw it more as a criticism of Tuchel`s style of management. I also disagree with the commonly held view that some players need "a kick up the @rse" to make them perform better. Many studies have been carried out, across all walks of life, which conclude that encouragement or "positive reinforcement" yields far better performances or desired results than criticism or "negative reinforcement.

I think Dion Dublin made an excellent point on MOTD2, although he was referring to Jose Mourinho.

"In my opinion, a coach can make players better, a manager needs to deal with individual personalities. That is his job. A manager has to deal with the individual personalities in the dressing room to get harmony."

Tuchel may be an excellent coach but he doesn`t get pass marks as a manager on this occasion, imo.



Not your average Sunday League player.
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 Re: Subbing the Substitute
Topic Originator: Lambo1885  
Date:   Tue 23 Feb 08:25

"Now I`m not suggesting that Hodson-Odoi is a delicate little flower, but I find the suggestion that Lineker and Co`s defence of the player was motivated by the fact that he`s English, an extremely cynical point of view."

Was there as big an issue made of it when Bielsa subbed Pablo Hernandez after brining him on just before half time earlier in the season?

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 Re: Subbing the Substitute
Topic Originator: GG Riva  
Date:   Tue 23 Feb 08:58

Quote:

Lambo1885, Tue 23 Feb 08:25

"Now I`m not suggesting that Hodson-Odoi is a delicate little flower, but I find the suggestion that Lineker and Co`s defence of the player was motivated by the fact that he`s English, an extremely cynical point of view."

Was there as big an issue made of it when Bielsa subbed Pablo Hernandez after brining him on just before half time earlier in the season?


I never saw that game, Lambo, so I've no recollection of it at all. Were the circumstances identical, apart from the player's nationalities and did Bielsa have a wee pop at Hernandez after the game?



Not your average Sunday League player.


Post Edited (Tue 23 Feb 08:59)
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 Re: Subbing the Substitute
Topic Originator: Lambo1885  
Date:   Tue 23 Feb 09:21

"I never saw that game, Lambo, so I`ve no recollection of it at all."

Which is kinda my point, the media wasn`t interested. Do you think Gary Lineker and Keown would be as scathing if Frank Lampard had made the substitution?

"Were the circumstances identical, apart from the player`s nationalities and did Bielsa have a wee pop at Hernandez after the game?"

Honestly can`t remember. Hernandez was, obviously, fuming when he came off.

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 Re: Subbing the Substitute
Topic Originator: Socks  
Date:   Tue 23 Feb 10:57

The stuff about early subs is interesting. While it might be tempting to take a player off early, sometimes players will need time to get themselves into the game. As it happens, the one time Raymie was lucky enough to be next to me for a game, the 2006 League Cup semi against Livingston at Easter Road, this situation arose. Yannick Zambernardi was having a stinker in the first 15 minutes - Raymie thought he should come off, I wasn`t so sure. In the end he turned it round well enough to contribute to a good win.

It`s a tough call for a manager, though. In one of my favourite away games in recent times, I somehow ended up having a good conversation with Bert Paton in the bowling club at Ayr before the game. We were talking about the 5-2 game at Stark`s and he mentioned subbing Mark McCulloch early. I think it might have been his debut as well, but not 100% sure on that. He was being absolutely destroyed by Barry Wilson and the manager felt he had no choice.

As always, a manager has to stand and fall by the hard decisions. No manager will get them all right, but the better ones are right much more often than they`re wrong.

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 Re: Subbing the Substitute
Topic Originator: Raymie the Legend  
Date:   Tue 23 Feb 12:32

I vaguely recall that game, Socks. I`m assuming the winger was getting the better of him in the early stages?

There are other things a manager can do, in similar situations, by making slight tactical alterations, for example? He could tell his midfield player to double up on the problematic winger, or ask one of the centre-backs to provide more cover?

I do have a couple of stories from my playing and managing days I can share

We had a decent left back, who on one particular day, was getting a roasting from the right winger. After 20 mins the manager made the call to take him off.
After that, he was never the same player - his confidence was shot.

On another occasion, when managing, I gave a trial to a player who claimed he had been on Morton`s books. Well, it was clear very early on that this was a fabrication and my assistant wanted me to get him off after 15 mins. I resisted and gave him to half time, as I didn`t want to embarrass him.
I think my decision was made easier as we were winning, in spite of him?




It's bloody tough being a legend
Ron Atkinson - 1983
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 Re: Subbing the Substitute
Topic Originator: Bucuresti Par  
Date:   Tue 23 Feb 12:52

Tuchel is not known for being much a people person, but is renowned as a tactician and a coach. The players might not take that well to it, or it might in fact have a very positive effect, they know if their not hitting expectations they`ll be off.

Speaking of early substitutions, these are another strange feature of the top league over here. There is a rule which requires all teams to field an u21 player in their starting lines up, and I think have at least a couple on the bench. However for a lot of teams in the league sadly don`t have an u21 player they`d choose to put in their first XI. So a lot of teams frequently take off the token u21 player after about 10 minutes, sometimes not even that, could be 4 or 5 minutes! That clearly can`t do much for these youngsters confidence, you`d have thought a good coach could at least come up with a tactical plan to get more out of them, keep them on the pitch for at least 20 minutes or so.

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 Re: Subbing the Substitute
Topic Originator: aaaaaaaaaargh  
Date:   Tue 23 Feb 15:06

I don`t know if Romanian man management has changed since the 90s, but I had the pleasure of watching the national side take on a schools team a few days before Euro 96. Lacatus went down heavily and was nearly crying in pain, but the coach basically waved at him to roll off the pitch so that they could get on with the game. It was over a minute before he reluctantly let one of his assistants go and check on him.

Incidentally they lost all three of their group matches after that.

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 Re: Subbing the Substitute
Topic Originator: par-ticular  
Date:   Tue 23 Feb 15:37

Not sure of my facts but seem to recall JC screaming at a Pars player at Cappielow before hauling him off after about 30 mins! or am I having a senior moment?
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 Re: Subbing the Substitute
Topic Originator: parathletic  
Date:   Tue 23 Feb 19:47

Hudson-Odoi in the starting lineup tonight. Interesting to see how he performs.

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 Re: Subbing the Substitute
Topic Originator: Bucuresti Par  
Date:   Tue 23 Feb 19:54

I think unfortunately these days, most Romanian managers would be encouraging their players to role around on the floor. Lacatus was a quality player, would have been a little bit past his best by 96, maybe he saw what was coming and didn`t fancy it!

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 Re: Subbing the Substitute
Topic Originator: Buspasspar  
Date:   Tue 23 Feb 20:27

"In my opinion, a coach can make players better, a manager needs to deal with individual personalities. That is his job. A manager has to deal with the individual personalities in the dressing room to get harmony."


That is so wrong .... you deal with individuals in private not in dressing rooms

Tuchel was doing his job

He is responsible for results he did not like what he saw in Hodson-Odoi so he took him back off

He has given him another chance tonight lets see if the Laddie has learned what is expected of him

We are forever shaped by the Children we once were
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 Re: Subbing the Substitute
Topic Originator: GG Riva  
Date:   Wed 24 Feb 07:27

There have been lots of interesting opinions expressed on this thread, but some people have gone off on a bit of a tangent.

My point was about the highly visible act of substituting a substitute and I merely used Hudson-Odoi as the most recent example of this arguably controversial practice. Some posters were side tracked by the fact that the player in question was English and believe that`s why his (German) manager attracted unanimous criticism from the MOTD presenter and pundits, as well as the match commentator. Others went on to reminisce about examples of early substitutions when a player was being "roasted" by a direct opponent.

With respect, while these opinions may be perfectly valid in a different discussion, they are irrelevant in this context. A substitute brought on for tactical reasons is expected to improve the team`s performance and perhaps even change the result. Studies have shown this outcome only happens quite rarely, but our brains are programmed to remember events which happen rather than those which don`t, so our perception is that subs often change the course of a game, which is demonstrably untrue.

In the case of Hudson-Odoi, the MOTD consensus was that he was making a reasonable contribution to the game in the time he was on and they felt his withdrawal was both harsh and unnecessary. I only saw brief highlights and therefore can`t comment, but Tuchel is his manager and has to do what he feels is best to get a result. In the event, Chelsea were unable to beat a side which had lost 5 consecutive games, so the substitutions didn`t produce the desired outcome.

Where I feel Tuchel erred was that he compounded the cuff round the ear when he took the player off, by kicking in the crown jewels in the post match interview. I suppose he was asked the question and gave a brutally honest answer. He might have been a bit more diplomatic. I`ve never been in a dressing room full of elite players, but if Lineker & Co think that Tuchel may have annoyed the other players in the squad then he maybe needs to tread a bit more carefully in future. No manager can survive if his players stop playing for him.

"In my opinion, a coach can make players better, a manager needs to deal with individual personalities. That is his job. A manager has to deal with the individual personalities in the dressing room to get harmony."


``That is so wrong .... you deal with individuals in private not in dressing rooms,``

I think you`ve misinterpreted what Dion Dublin said, BPP. He wasn`t meaning that Tuchel should tear strips of Hudson-Odoi in front of the other players. He`s saying that a manager has to know his players really well, so he can react to each one in a way to get the best out of him and consequently, maximise his team`s potential. At least that`s how I read it. :-)



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 Re: Subbing the Substitute
Topic Originator: Buspasspar  
Date:   Wed 24 Feb 08:26

I think you could be right G.G.

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