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 SPFL consulting on Ugly Sister’s B teams
Topic Originator: Leamington_sPAR  
Date:   Thu 18 Mar 12:50


Plans to introduce Celtic and Rangers B teams into League Two for the start of next season are being finalised for a vote by SPFL clubs. We have engaged supporters on this topic in the past, but are keen to know whether the opinions of Scottish football supporters has changed.

The survey is open now at https://www.surveymonkey.co.uk/r/XLJSRN2
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 Re: SPFL consulting on Ugly Sister’s B teams
Topic Originator: Mr P  
Date:   Thu 18 Mar 13:00

This could be a bad move as many clubs who rely on the loan market will lose out. We ourselves have loanees from them.

Not Ideal I know but look at the change in QOS when they had a few Rangers players sign recently. What will happen to the other clubs like Aberdeen, Hibs/Hearts they would be at a disadvantage in this set up.

like everything that is proposed in Scottish Football, it will only benefit the top two, what happens when the money sweetener runs out and would they expect the money from winning the league?

What will stop them fielding other players who are back from injury?

A lot of questions will need answered before this goes through.

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 Re: SPFL consulting on Ugly Sister’s B teams
Topic Originator: elvis_lives  
Date:   Thu 18 Mar 13:13

Hopefully straight in the bin where it belongs.
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 Re: SPFL consulting on Ugly Sister’s B teams
Topic Originator: parsmad68  
Date:   Thu 18 Mar 13:18

Interesting that many ex pros also think it is useless. Often hear being back the reserve league.
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 Re: SPFL consulting on Ugly Sister’s B teams
Topic Originator: aaaaaaaaaargh  
Date:   Thu 18 Mar 13:37

How does this kind of thing work in other countries?
I suppose they will be blocked at championship level so that they can`t be in the same league as their big teams.

Maybe we should just allow them to have B, C, D, E, and F teams. Then they can all be in the premier league at the same time. 114 OF games a year, and 114 where they will have the pleasure of playing with themselves.

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 Re: SPFL consulting on Ugly Sister’s B teams
Topic Originator: Leamington_sPAR  
Date:   Thu 18 Mar 13:39

Quote:

Mr P, Thu 18 Mar 13:00

This could be a bad move as many clubs who rely on the loan market will lose out. We ourselves have loanees from them.

Not Ideal I know but look at the change in QOS when they had a few Rangers players sign recently. What will happen to the other clubs like Aberdeen, Hibs/Hearts they would be at a disadvantage in this set up.

like everything that is proposed in Scottish Football, it will only benefit the top two, what happens when the money sweetener runs out and would they expect the money from winning the league?

What will stop them fielding other players who are back from injury?

A lot of questions will need answered before this goes through.


I said as much in my detailed response, one question seem to imply or ignore the fact that young elite players do exist outside of these 2 clubs. Highlighted how anti-competitive this move would be and would only increase the already large gulf between them and the rest of the Premier clubs.
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 Re: SPFL consulting on Ugly Sister’s B teams
Topic Originator: DA-go Par Adonis  
Date:   Thu 18 Mar 13:50

Aside from the former old firm, which clubs are actually in favour of this?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I love it when we go sell Kevin Nisbet,
He's gonna pay for everyone this season.
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 Re: SPFL consulting on Ugly Sister’s B teams
Topic Originator: Leamington_sPAR  
Date:   Thu 18 Mar 14:14

Quote:

aaaaaaaaaargh, Thu 18 Mar 13:37

How does this kind of thing work in other countries?
I suppose they will be blocked at championship level so that they can`t be in the same league as their big teams.

Maybe we should just allow them to have B, C, D, E, and F teams. Then they can all be in the premier league at the same time. 114 OF games a year, and 114 where they will have the pleasure of playing with themselves.


They have B teams in Spain and all seem to be their 2nd Division B groups, looks like most of the La Liga teams are represented. None in La Liga2 so perhaps they can’t go any further than where they are. On that basis there’s a strong argument to say B team no further than League 1. They shouldn’t be in the Championship for sure.
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 Re: SPFL consulting on Ugly Sister’s B teams
Topic Originator: londonparsfan  
Date:   Thu 18 Mar 14:21

Quote:

DA-go Par Adonis, Thu 18 Mar 13:50

Aside from the former old firm, which clubs are actually in favour of this?


Depressingly probably quite a few as the B teams will probably have bigger away supports than some real teams. Clubs will look at the short term financial incentive.
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 Re: SPFL consulting on Ugly Sister’s B teams
Topic Originator: wee eck  
Date:   Thu 18 Mar 14:22

This has been debated at length on Radio Scotland this week and opinion seems to be split. It was mooted by John Collins as a way to develop elite players for the benefit of the national squad but the way it has developed suggests it`s more about developing players for the OF. When did they ever do anything purely for the benefit of Scottish football?

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 Re: SPFL consulting on Ugly Sister’s B teams
Topic Originator: parsmad68  
Date:   Thu 18 Mar 14:35

Has John Collins recently viewed the spattering of contributions from the old firm in the latest line up for Scotland. Meagre to say the least. I have thought to drill down to where these old firm players were developed.
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 Re: SPFL consulting on Ugly Sister’s B teams
Topic Originator: Kaiser Chief  
Date:   Thu 18 Mar 14:52

Article from BBC Sport earlier in the week:

Celtic and Rangers B teams could join Scottish League 2 next season - https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/56412970
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 Re: SPFL consulting on Ugly Sister’s B teams
Topic Originator: Bandy  
Date:   Thu 18 Mar 15:09

This idea can do one.

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 Re: SPFL consulting on Ugly Sister’s B teams
Topic Originator: MDCCCLXXXV  
Date:   Thu 18 Mar 16:51

All the other 40 teams should hand in a letter to leave the spfl. Shambles

East End Park is a symbol of all that is DAFC.
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 Re: SPFL consulting on Ugly Sister’s B teams
Topic Originator: Parallel Lines  
Date:   Thu 18 Mar 16:58

They can get promoted to League One. The have a 21 or under age limit and can only enter the Challenge cup. Crowds will rise for the first season but once they are both in League One they will fall.
Nah this is for the benefit of the Drag Sisters not for Scottish football. They can both feck off

I looked for my pet in all the books on animals and birds and then I found it in the Book of Revelations.Marty Feldman
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 Re: SPFL consulting on Ugly Sister’s B teams
Topic Originator: Luxembourg Par  
Date:   Thu 18 Mar 17:18

NO!

What will undoubtedly happen, is that they will but up even more of the young talent cheaply, and the few that develop enough will be transferred to the big team, the rest will be unceremoniously dumped when they hit 21.

Secondly, who is going to watch them?
Yup, that`s right, all the local `OF fans without a bus fare`

Result?
1. OF further deplete all the other team`s youth talents
2. Further increase the gap between themselves and everyone else
3. Increase the proliferation of sectarian bile and hate throughout the smaller towns - it`s bad enough with them in their local boozers, but if you give them a focal point?

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 Re: SPFL consulting on Ugly Sister’s B teams
Topic Originator: GG Riva  
Date:   Thu 18 Mar 17:51

I think if it was down to the fans, this idea would be choked at birth. It really rips my knitting that the SPFL are promoting it. I know it's already happening in Spain with Barca and Real and in Italy with Juventus, but I could happily live without it here.

I'm guessing it'll be the club chairmen who will vote?



Not your average Sunday League player.
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 Re: SPFL consulting on Ugly Sister’s B teams
Topic Originator: Berry  
Date:   Thu 18 Mar 17:53

Hope it gets thrown out.
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 Re: SPFL consulting on Ugly Sister’s B teams
Topic Originator: dafc-chris1  
Date:   Thu 18 Mar 17:59

This has no chance of happening
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 Re: SPFL consulting on Ugly Sister’s B teams
Topic Originator: jake89  
Date:   Thu 18 Mar 19:22

No, no, no. Why don't we all just give up and the SPFL can have a league made us not the Old Firm main and B, C, D etc teams?

Why is this even being consulted on?!
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 Re: SPFL consulting on Ugly Sister’s B teams
Topic Originator: dafc  
Date:   Thu 18 Mar 19:30

Money, huge amounts of compensation for league one and two clubs.
Other teams can have B teams it won’t be restricted to Celtic and Rangers if they throw in the same money.
Doesn’t impact on pars in anyway as all prize money will be taken from top 2 positions in top league, it works well in other countries and I’m sure Holland main players have all played at B team level. We just need to take off it’s the old firm and an automatic no.

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 Re: SPFL consulting on Ugly Sister’s B teams
Topic Originator: JTH123  
Date:   Thu 18 Mar 19:43

Lower league chairmen will also be thinking about the the prospect of more away supporters than usual. Money talks.
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 Re: SPFL consulting on Ugly Sister’s B teams
Topic Originator: jake89  
Date:   Thu 18 Mar 19:48

So what's the approach for admission to the league? Why Celtic or Rangers B over Kelty Hearts?
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 Re: SPFL consulting on Ugly Sister’s B teams
Topic Originator: RhinoPars  
Date:   Thu 18 Mar 19:58

Hope this is not approved.

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 Re: SPFL consulting on Ugly Sister’s B teams
Topic Originator: saltonsgonagetu  
Date:   Thu 18 Mar 20:07

30 grand each team



Post Edited (Thu 18 Mar 20:10)
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 Re: SPFL consulting on Ugly Sister’s B teams
Topic Originator: parsfan  
Date:   Thu 18 Mar 20:25

Are they extra teams in the league or will a couple of L2 clubs be sacrificed for them?

If other clubs are allowed to do it, what if they all do?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The universe is ruled by chance and indifference



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 Re: SPFL consulting on Ugly Sister’s B teams
Topic Originator: RossF  
Date:   Thu 18 Mar 20:40

All SPLF teams should have the option whether they want a B team, not just the old firm. There is no way they should start in league two either. How unfair would that be to Kelty for example, who should have went up last season and might not get the chance this season also!

I think Games against seasoned professionals week in/week out would benefit youth players and the opportunity to compete against them for a title would help them improve.

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 Re: SPFL consulting on Ugly Sister’s B teams
Topic Originator: Kaiser Chief  
Date:   Thu 18 Mar 20:46

Quote:

parsfan, Thu 18 Mar 20:25

Are they extra teams in the league or will a couple of L2 clubs be sacrificed for them?

If other clubs are allowed to do it, what if they all do?


Two teams from the Highland and Lowland leagues will also be added, expanding league 2 to 16 clubs.
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 Re: SPFL consulting on Ugly Sister’s B teams
Topic Originator: jake89  
Date:   Thu 18 Mar 20:49

So can Kelty pay 30k and get admitted then? Surely there's more criteria otherwise anyone with £30k to burn could get entry.
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 Re: SPFL consulting on Ugly Sister’s B teams
Topic Originator: Kaiser Chief  
Date:   Thu 18 Mar 21:00

No idea Jake. I just got that from the BBC Sport article I posted a link to earlier.
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 Re: SPFL consulting on Ugly Sister’s B teams
Topic Originator: Polt  
Date:   Thu 18 Mar 23:39

This is a no from me. For me it could also be open to litigation from the teams that applied to join the league. What happens to the team that wins the play Offs in lowland vs Highland league to gain entry into professional league.
This current format is crap for all leagues. Play Offs are not right. In England yeah makes a few million. Here it is worthless and pointless.
Stop pandering to old firm and think about the whole of Scottish football. It was old firm demanding more money than the rest that ruined TV rights here. Now they want to play reserve team in league 2. Naw...there is the the lowland and Highland league. Go start at the bottom where you do what every team has to do and earn the right. Kelty far more deserving of a place than these two cretins.

In my opinion they need to revert back to old system larger leagues and add more teams from Highland and lowland leagues to make a third league. Far more attractive to play teams only twice than 4 times a season. I might be the minority but for me it would make it more interesting again. Then....play Offs might actually work. The current format isn't financially attractive for getting TV deals except....you guessed it 4 x old firm games.....

Look at how competitive English lower leagues with the financial backing they have through sponsorships and TV deals
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 Re: SPFL consulting on Ugly Sister’s B teams
Topic Originator: DunfyDave  
Date:   Fri 19 Mar 08:30

Quote:

jake89, Thu 18 Mar 19:48

So what's the approach for admission to the league? Why Celtic or Rangers B over Kelty Hearts?


^^^ Excellent question Jake89.

Then there are the additional question of the trickle- down funds being further diluted unfairly to the lower league teams whilst the OF increase their market share in Scottish football.

DunfyDave
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 Re: SPFL consulting on Ugly Sister’s B teams
Topic Originator: McCaig`s Tower  
Date:   Fri 19 Mar 22:51

It was a "no" from me, but I confess to being stumped by the question "what would you do instead to improve things", or however it was phrased.

My feeling that any question to which the answer is "give Celtic and Rangers more power and influence" is probably the wrong question to be asking.

I would also suggest that an examination of the old post-war "C" division might be instructive.

The bigger question is what are we trying to achieve? A more successful international team? More club success in Europe? A more vibrant club game? Better players? Richer players? Richer chairmen?

It might be possible to achieve all of these goals but I think it would be simpler to achieve some and not others (and therein may lie one problem).

Ernie Walker had his famous think-tank, and Henry McLeish had his report, and I`m not sure we are any the wiser. Perhaps "colt teams" is just a regular sticking plaster solution like league reconstruction which distracts us from solving fundamental problems.

As for fans` surveys - do they provide anything of value?

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 Re: SPFL consulting on Ugly Sister’s B teams
Topic Originator: DulochConvert  
Date:   Fri 19 Mar 23:09

My suspicions is that this is a book marker.

Give it a few years and the old firm apply and join the English Championship, they then use the colt teams grow there players of any age. Then in a few more years they are running 2 teams.

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 Re: SPFL consulting on Ugly Sister’s B teams
Topic Originator: Sliema Par  
Date:   Sat 20 Mar 07:18

There is one particular aspect of the discussion regarding the Old Firm joining Tier 2 of a European Super League which fascinates me.

(Though I hasten to point out that ,when I read European newspapers on this topic, they only mention Celtic,but I digress).

If the OF were in the ESL they would only win a handful of games in a season.Given their appeal is so dependent on almost constant success (look at the near breakdown by Celtic fans at present) what impact would this have?

Furthermore only the well heeled fans of these clubs would be able to travel to away games.



Post Edited (Sat 20 Mar 07:26)
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 Re: SPFL consulting on Ugly Sister’s B teams
Topic Originator: JTH123  
Date:   Sat 20 Mar 10:10

McCaigs Tower.
It seemed to me that there's an inference in that question that it's been accepted that allowing this to go ahead will benefit young players coming through in Scotland. And that we somehow have to justify a no vote by coming up with alternatives.
Personally I think if this goes through the old firm will just increase their squads and the same number of players will end up not playing every week.
Nothing that the OF float is being suggested for the good of the game.

Post Edited (Sat 20 Mar 10:13)
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 Re: SPFL consulting on Ugly Sister’s B teams
Topic Originator: McCaig`s Tower  
Date:   Wed 24 Mar 16:47

JTH123

I think it`s a legitimate tactic to propose a solution to a problem and ask people who don`t like it to argue constructively against it and come up with an alternative solution.

However, I`m not sure what the problem is that we are trying to solve, or whether the proposed solution solves it. If someone produced a half-baked idea like this in most businesses it would get rejected out of hand.

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 Re: SPFL consulting on Ugly Sister’s B teams
Topic Originator: Buspasspar  
Date:   Wed 24 Mar 17:02

Good post polt .... I have been banging on about reverting back to larger leagues for years ... posted it on here way back and even phoned in to the phone in thingy .... It is in my opinion the only way forward for the whole of Scottish football not just for the few bigger teams

We are forever shaped by the Children we once were
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 Re: SPFL consulting on Ugly Sister’s B teams
Topic Originator: vasco  
Date:   Wed 24 Mar 17:03

Scottish football would be better if both of these clubs played their football outside of Scotland. The SFA and SPFL seem to think that these 2 clubs are all that matters and keeping them sweet is their bleedin top priority. Their B teams can GTF.

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 Re: SPFL consulting on Ugly Sister’s B teams
Topic Originator: londonparsfan  
Date:   Wed 24 Mar 17:12

Unfortunately other clubs have got hooked on the revenue their fans generate as well and factor in 2 visits from each of the gruesome twosome into their revenue as standard and don't want to give it up.

Its a depressing reality.
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 Re: SPFL consulting on Ugly Sister’s B teams
Topic Originator: rossmcno1  
Date:   Thu 25 Mar 00:50

Tell them they can have their B teams in League 1, as long as the premier league is extended to 18 teams and the championship to 20 teams. Then league 1 can be the new feeder into the top 2 divisions and allow more entries from highland, lowland and other leagues. Still want your 4 old firm games? Introduce a 2 legged bigotfest© Trophy, between the two of them and depends on who wins, they get to fly their flag on Glasgow city chambers on the day of their choice.

Nah? Didn’t think so :/



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 Re: SPFL consulting on Ugly Sister’s B teams
Topic Originator: RhinoPars  
Date:   Thu 25 Mar 05:36

..and also change the voting structure so OF don’t have veto powers and start sharing some of gate revenue with away team.
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 Re: SPFL consulting on Ugly Sister’s B teams
Topic Originator: Berry  
Date:   Mon 5 Apr 12:09

Just received an email on this with some survey results and no surprises.

Just 23.2% of Scottish fans are in favour of this being introduced.

Funnily enough 88.2% of OF fans are in favour.
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 Re: SPFL consulting on Ugly Sister’s B teams
Topic Originator: londonparsfan  
Date:   Mon 5 Apr 12:15

Thanks for sharing that's interesting. Look forward to them being introduced then.
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 Re: SPFL consulting on Ugly Sister’s B teams
Topic Originator: DulochConvert  
Date:   Mon 5 Apr 12:51

Survey Results

Overall, just 23.2% of Scottish fans are in favour of these proposals - with a sharp divide between the views of Old Firm fans and fans of other clubs. 88.2% of Old Firm fans are in favour, but only 11% of other fans support these proposals. Support is lowest (8%) amongst fans of the other Premiership clubs, with 11.3% in favour in the Championship, 10.4% in League One, 17.6% in League Two, and 37% support from Highland and Lowland league fans.

Of those in favour of the proposals, we asked whether promotion should be possible through the divisions. Around three quarters of these survey respondents agree that promotion should be permitted, but most feel that promotion should be limited to League One (25.1%) or the Championship (34.6%). Only 14.1% of these respondents believe that B teams should be allowed to reach the top division.

Regardless of their response to previous questions, we also asked fans whether they would watch their team play against a B team. Again, the responses from Old Firm fans were starkly different from fans of other clubs - 80.3% of Rangers and Celtic fans would watch these matches, compared with just 16.2% of other fans (a combined response of 26.3% overall).

Similarly polarised responses were received when we asked whether the introduction of B teams would result in improved player development - 88.9% of Rangers and Celtic fans believe that player development would be improved, compared with 11.2% of other fans (23.4% overall).

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 Re: SPFL consulting on Ugly Sister’s B teams
Topic Originator: GG Riva  
Date:   Mon 5 Apr 12:52

Quote:

Berry, Mon 5 Apr 12:09

Just received an email on this with some survey results and no surprises.

Just 23.2% of Scottish fans are in favour of this being introduced.

Funnily enough 88.2% of OF fans are in favour.


Do you know if this survey was commissioned by the SPFL, Berry? I wonder if they will actually give any consideration to what the fans think?

Do you have the total numbers of fans who replied to the survey? I'm trying to work out how such a large %age of OF fans becomes such a small %age of the total. The number taking the survey can't be proportionate since OF fan numbers dwarf those of of the other 40 clubs put together.



Not your average Sunday League player.
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 Re: SPFL consulting on Ugly Sister’s B teams
Topic Originator: Berry  
Date:   Mon 5 Apr 14:57

Doesn’t say GG. The email was from Supporters Direct Scotland, Duloch Converts post above is all that was sent. :)
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