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 Player Loan Scheme
Topic Originator: GG Riva  
Date:   Fri 9 Apr 08:13

I know there are pros and cons to the PLS in this country but, on balance, I think it benefits the parent clubs more than those who take players on loan.

Take the Pars, this season - we have a number of players on loan. Presumably, they`re developing and improving with coaching and first team football, which they`re not ready for in the top flight. Our club pays their wages and the parent club may even insist that they are given a certain amount of game time as a condition of the loan(?) If that`s the case, it doesn`t seem a very equitable scheme to me.

In some European countries like Italy, the parent club usually continues to pay the loan player`s wages and the club which develops the player is sometimes paid a fee for its trouble, since the experience the player has gained will have increased his value. I`m fairly certain this doesn`t happen here, but happy to be corrected.

If the application by Celtic and Rangers for their colt teams to join League 2 goes through, there may be considerably less loan players available as they`ll be able to get first team football while remaining with their own clubs. This may result in these two clubs hoovering up even more young talent than they do now, increasing the huge chasm between them and the other clubs even further.



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 Re: Player Loan Scheme
Topic Originator: Rastapari  
Date:   Fri 9 Apr 08:52

I see very little value in it, the odd player yeah but we have to rebuild every year.

Carole Baskin fed Rasta to a tiger.
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 Re: Player Loan Scheme
Topic Originator: elvis_lives  
Date:   Fri 9 Apr 09:03

We have far too many. McInroy, Banks, Henderson, Murray and Mayo

Crawford seems to bring in loads every year, most haven't met the required standard.


Established players like Kiltie are fine but the vast majority of players we end up with from the old firms bloated youth systems don't seem very good to me.

Post Edited (Fri 09 Apr 09:04)
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 Re: Player Loan Scheme
Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks  
Date:   Fri 9 Apr 09:50

GG, what`s the difference between the Old Firm hoovering up all the young talent and sending them out on loan and hoovering up the young talent and having them play in their B teams? In fact it would appear, at first glance anyways, that if they had B teams then they would no longer be sending so many players out on loan and so then the clubs that have been taking these loanees will have to do a better job of cultivating and playing their own youngsters.

We all hate poverty, war, and injustice.
Unlike the rest of you squares.
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 Re: Player Loan Scheme
Topic Originator: GG Riva  
Date:   Fri 9 Apr 10:19

Quote:

The One Who Knocks, Fri 9 Apr 09:50

GG, what`s the difference between the Old Firm hoovering up all the young talent and sending them out on loan and hoovering up the young talent and having them play in their B teams? In fact it would appear, at first glance anyways, that if they had B teams then they would no longer be sending so many players out on loan and so then the clubs that have been taking these loanees will have to do a better job of cultivating and playing their own youngsters.


I was thinking they might feel encouraged to sign even more players than they do now if they can offer them first team football, albeit in the lower leagues. It's a real shame as many players who don't make the grade at these clubs can't handle the disappointment and drift out of the game. Some do end up at provincial clubs but not as many as there would be if they started out at these clubs.

In an ideal world, boys would start out at their local club, be given their chance much earlier and move to a bigger club for a fee if they're good enough.



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 Re: Player Loan Scheme
Topic Originator: wee eck  
Date:   Fri 9 Apr 11:11

It seems to me the loan system skews the market in favour of the bigger clubs. It used to be that the number of players a club signed was limited as they had to consider how many games they could offer players as they developed. Now they seem to be able to sign more than they need in the knowledge that they can offload them by lending them to less wealthy clubs who help develop them whilst making some sort of contribution to their financial cost. It seems to have become an industry within an industry with clubs employing `loan managers` to look after this side of their business. The big clubs down South seem to have loads of youngsters out on loan all over Europe.

I first heard John Collins floating the idea of OF `B teams` playing in the lower leagues. He said the disadvantage of the loan system was that these young OF players were playing for teams which played a completely different style of football from that required by the OF. Somehow he thought young OF players playing together would learn more playing against teams playing that style than playing with them.

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 Re: Player Loan Scheme
Topic Originator: dafc  
Date:   Fri 9 Apr 11:14

In an ideal world a youngster would develop at their local club. However the lure of the old firm teams appears too much for the majority if they come calling despite both having relatively poor numbers in general in promoting youth, something gerrard appears to want to change from those in the know, and the youth levels have improved dramatically at Rangers.
I think even at a young age players are thinking I must be good enough, very few are unfortunately, however a decent percentage do have good careers elsewhere. A lot is the mentality and dealing with adversity and family support.
I look at raiths young midfielder regan hendry - Celtic background, but looks a real talent and for me could easy play in top league.
For me though still too many players not actually playing football, good players playing 15/20 mins max every few weeks. And that happens at all clubs and academy’s, boys who don’t make it at pars will try their luck at say Brechin, Cowdenbeath and so on. Where as Celtic and Rangers failures more so to championship level to start with.
Gilmour is another example - rangers through and through, but
Decided to move to England at a very young age and he seems very switched on and was confident he could play at elite level.
But agree far too many fall away from football, but I don’t think it’s an old firm problem, happens at all levels.

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 Re: Player Loan Scheme
Topic Originator: Socks  
Date:   Fri 9 Apr 14:24

I don`t really understand the post at the top. It seems to be saying that the bigger clubs are advantaged because they send players out on loan, but then says that actually they`ll be advantaged if that dos not happen in future.

It`s also wrong to say that the club taking the player pays the wages. In most cases, it`s likely that the club getting the player on loan will pay an agreed percentage of the player`s wages which they pay to the parent club. There`s surely no way Dunfermline would pay the full wages of a Celtic player or Brechin would pay the full wages of a Dunfermline player.

I don`t think there`s much wrong with the principle. When it`s a season-long loan, it isn`t really any different to signing the player on a contract of that length. If a manager knows he has a player for a season, I don`t see why he`d care whether the player was contracted to Dunfermline or was a loan signing.

Perhaps the real issue is that many players that go out on loan from Celtic and Rangers are just not that good and largely disappointing. Maybe some people just expect more of them given where they`ve come from? I remember Rory Loy being on loan with us, and he did OK without being spectacularly good or bad. But it was obvious after a number of games for us that he was never going to be good enough to play for Rangers.

The widepread use of the loan system is a symptom rather than the problem in its self. The problem is that clubs can sign as many players as they want at a young age, meaning that the biggger clubs inevitably have to shift on players who are not good enough.

That`s not the case every time - we`ve had a few players from Hearts recently who were genuinely with us for development. Just a shame that in the case of Harry Cochrane, attitude seemed to be a problem and his time was also disappointing, even though he was obviously considered to have a future at Hearts when he came to us.

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 Re: Player Loan Scheme
Topic Originator: GG Riva  
Date:   Fri 9 Apr 17:04

^^^^^ Reading it back, I can see how my OP is confusing, Socks. I definitely need to sharpen up my communication skills. 😄😃

I think I was trying to say that there's little to be gained in developing players for another club and if Celtic and Rangers B teams are admitted into the SPFL, they might sign even more youngsters than they currently sign, so that even fewer are available to smaller provincial clubs like our own.

With regard to loan players wages, it may well be as you suggest, that each club pays a proportion. I had a discussion with former Pars chairman, John Yorkston, circa 2005 when I asked him this precise question and he told me the Pars were paying the wages of a player we had on loan. I told him the parent clubs normally cover loanees wages in Italy and in some cases a development fee. He replied that the Pars would be delighted to accept any Italian footballers I could arrange under these conditions. 🙂 Perhaps these arrangements were only in place then because the Pars were playing in the top flight?

I agree that part of the problem is that there's no limit to the number of young players a club can sign. As a result, Celtic and Rangers in particular, sign lots of boys who have no chance of ever being good enough to play first team football for either club. I do think there are issues when a club takes too many players on loan. They will almost inevitably go back to their parent club, so that the provincial club has to renew much of its squad, making it difficult to attain any kind of continuity and playing style. If it's a player from the same league, he's not normally able to play against his parent club, even if the reasons for that are obvious.

There is value in the loan system, particularly emergency loans of goalkeepers, for example, but when all the pros and cons are totted up, I think it's most definitely much more advantageous to our biggest clubs and I'd happily prune it back if not scrap it altogether.



Not your average Sunday League player.


Post Edited (Fri 09 Apr 17:05)
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 Re: Player Loan Scheme
Topic Originator: Indiapar  
Date:   Fri 9 Apr 17:27

Again I think the elephant in the room here is the state of the game if clubs such as ours has to rely on loan players.
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 Re: Player Loan Scheme
Topic Originator: Jeffery  
Date:   Fri 9 Apr 18:03

I'd like one loan a year....but it has to be Adam Hammill every year.
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 Re: Player Loan Scheme
Topic Originator: OzPar  
Date:   Fri 9 Apr 20:26

Always thought the loan system was limited to three players + an emergency goalkeeper. Perhaps Covid has seen these limits relaxed. I don`t recall us ever having as many loanees as we do this year.

I agree with the person who said loans should be for the full season. We have had some youngsters making a real impact with us by Christmas, only to see them whisked back to their parent club. This has cost us momentum.

As far as OF loan players are concerned, generally speaking, they seem to sparkle when they arrive and fizzle out as time goes on. Perhaps after a few months toughing it out in the Championship, inwardly they come to the realisation that they will never meet to the levels expected at Ibrox or Parkhead and their heads go down.

I think of Afolabi. When he signed for us, I did the usual web search of game clips to see what he was like, and came across a youngster who, while playing for the Southampton U-18s, was an absolute standout showing remarkable scoring ability. Little wonder Celtic had snapped him up.

I kept looking for those skills when he came to us, but only rarely did he demonstrate them. He`s now at Dundee and appears to be playing largely as a substitute. I doubt Celtic will be renewing his contract.

McInroy is another who fits into this basket. Mayo has been pretty good, and we`ll see how Henderson goes in the last five games, but he`s not going to get a lot of time to show his true worth. Scott Banks has been excellent so far.

At this level, a loanee with experience is probably more useful to us. Wighton is a very good example.

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 Re: Player Loan Scheme
Topic Originator: Glenrothes Par  
Date:   Sat 10 Apr 17:07

You have to question the commitment of many on loan players . They know they wont be around for the team next season

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 Re: Player Loan Scheme
Topic Originator: OzPar  
Date:   Sun 11 Apr 07:00

I think when you have five loanees chasing eleven (effectively ten) starting slots you have a real issue with team balance and stability. It should be no more than three loans per team.

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 Re: Player Loan Scheme
Topic Originator: ianbd6  
Date:   Sun 11 Apr 08:17

This is a subject I have spent many an hour in the clubhouse discussing. Whether it is a good or bad thing is I think dependent on your club`s situation. For smaller club`s they can be a lifeline. If a club can get a couple of young lads from a big club`s academy for a 2 or 3 month period for no cost to themselves it helps their finances and gives the young lads a taste of men`s football. It is an all win situation. The parent club gets to see if their player has the potential to hack it both physically and mentally. The loaning club get a lad who is in theory a more technically gifted player than they would normally have. The players themselves get the chance to play at a decent level but as important they get to see that there is football outside the top division. As for club`s like Dunfermline it all depends on what players they are loaning. For a club that at the start of the season would have a target of reaching the playoff`s and possible promotion to then go out and sign 4 or 5 loan players seems a bit bizarre. If you are getting a player who is of a higher standard than what you already have and the parent club is willing to pay a good chunk of his wages then ok or if you are getting a lad who have potential and are coming to bolster the squad for a little or no money that`s fine. I think with loans you have to look at the benefit for your club. Whether the player goes back to his parent club a better player is irrelevant. It is about what the system give you. If say Rangers have a young talented player and they want to see what he would be like against men at a decent level and the phone up the Pars and say we have this lad we think he is going to go places but we need him to toughen up. We are willing to loan him to you for three months at no cost to you. What is the problem with that. Potentially you get a player who might be an asset to the team at no cost. If it is used to your club`s advantage the system is good.

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 Re: Player Loan Scheme
Topic Originator: CAPar  
Date:   Sun 11 Apr 09:13

Loans can be a good thing but as mentioned above, I don't think most of the players we've currently got on loan will ever go on to be regulars for their parent club because they're not really that good.

The other issue is age. Having that many young guys with no prior experience of first team football can't possibly be to our advantage and I think it's one of the reasons the team is chopped and changed so often. They're not able to put in consistent performances.

I think 1 or 2 loans can be good but when you're up to 5, and they're all young guys, I don't think it works very well. I'd rather we signed more experienced pros with proven ability at our level in future.
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 Re: Player Loan Scheme
Topic Originator: GG Riva  
Date:   Sun 11 Apr 09:20

Good thoughtful post, Ianbd, but I disagree with you on a couple of points. I think if a loanee goes back to his parent club is very relevant. He has been developed and gained experience which his own club was unable to given him at no extra cost - indeed his club may even have saved themselves at least some of his wages. I like the Italian system whereby the parent club recognises and rewards this by paying the smaller club a development fee.

Bringing players on loan also means the manager will be under some pressure to play them, otherwise the parent club will be on the phone - they don't send players on loan just for a change of scenery. This means that there will probably be less opportunities for that clubs own players to play regularly.

I think the real issue is that there is no limit to the number of young players a club can sign. In Scotland, this means that Celtic and Rangers sign up many more boys than all the other clubs put together, the vast majority of whom will not be good enough to play in their first teams. If there was a maximum number, these boys would be more evenly distributed around the country and if they proved to be good enough, the smaller clubs would pocket a transfer/development fee when they move to a bigger club.



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 Re: Player Loan Scheme
Topic Originator: wee eck  
Date:   Sun 11 Apr 09:37

Haven`t the rules been changed this season to deal with Covid issues so that more loanees can be signed than normal? Every club seems to have more loanees than usual but we seem to have placed the emphasis on young players more than experienced players and I think that has been reflected in the inconsistent performances we have seen. Last season we had established pros like Kiltie, Thomas and OFW to boost our squad but this season only Wighton fits into that category and we probably only got him because he had signed a PCA.

You also have to consider the effect it has on our own youngsters when they see young players coming in from other clubs and being given opportunities ahead of them especially when there`s no reserve team games to play in.

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 Re: Player Loan Scheme
Topic Originator: rossmcno1  
Date:   Sun 11 Apr 12:36

I always think a squad and starting 11 should be made up of players who are permanently signed to the club they are playing for, with maybe 1 or 2 max loan players who should be there to compliment the squad. I just feel especially with players from old firm teams they rarely impress as far as the expectation is - Mayo has been the best in recent memory but even then Not exactly setting the heather alight. McInroy has also been disappointing for me. Afolabi last Season was also largely disappointing. Crawford seems to rely more on young loans than previous managers and considering how good his record is on permanent signings, I wish he’d go for more permanent signings than so many loans.

In the wider Scottish football argument, I genuinely believe we need bigger leagues to encourage youth coming through. Because of how tight the leagues are teams simply don’t risk raw talent where they could do if there were more midtable games...of course the counter argument is how much “excitement” is manufactured by our current setup. I understand Collins’ argument about culture and B teams being able to play a certain way, and would be tempted to give it more credence, but I’d also enforce a Max 3 non Scottish National rule across the board ... after all of this is about developing players for the National team then surely the old firm would be all for it. Oh no? They won’t agree to that? Surprised.... 😏



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 Re: Player Loan Scheme
Topic Originator: Socks  
Date:   Sun 11 Apr 13:32

Some interesting points made above.

Thanks GG for the explanation, and interesting to hear of that conversation with John Yorkston. I think that`s probably an outlier though - if you think back to that time, we were paying some ridiculous wages as other clubs obviously knew, so might well have paid close to the full amount for a particular player`s wages. I`m still pretty sure that it wouldn`t be normal, and that we won`t be doing that routinely now.

Also a good point about the level of the club taking a loan player, and the experience of the player in question. Where we are, maybe it doesn`t suit taking a lot of inexperienced players, but further down the leagues this might work better. Most of the players loaned out by Celtic and Rangers are being sent out before they are released at the end of their contract. I don`t mean any ill will to a boy who has done his best for us when he`s played, but what are the chances that Kerr McInroy is regularly going to get a game for Celtic`s first team? To the nearest one percent, it`s zero, though there`s always a small chance a player might develop later.

Bruce Anderson was a good loan signing who did a job in a struggling Pars team. Aidan Keena before that also did quite well. Both genuinely had a chance of making the first team at Aberdeen/Hearts and did play after they went back. These are the loan signings that seem to work out better at our level, though there`s always an exception like Harry Cochrane who was poor.

Like any signing, there`s always a risk it doesn`t work out, but the risk seems higher when it`s a player at the end of the line at Celtic/Rangers than when it`s a player who has a genuine chance of making the first team at a smaller club in the top division.

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 Re: Player Loan Scheme
Topic Originator: LochgellyAlbert  
Date:   Sun 11 Apr 15:19

Mcgregor must be the best loan signing we ever had?
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 Re: Player Loan Scheme
Topic Originator: Indiapar  
Date:   Sun 11 Apr 15:30

I don't agree with loan players. It reinforces the status of the club as not being a top flight club. It also prevents the club planning for the future in any meaningful way. We effectively become a reserve team playing in the championship and that does not benefit us or any of the other clubs who have to rely on loan players in the long term.
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 Re: Player Loan Scheme
Topic Originator: TAFKA_Super_Petrie  
Date:   Sun 11 Apr 16:05

Seen this over the piece.

If the OF have a genuine talent who they think have a chance of 'making it' then they are going to be heading to the English Championship or League One at worst.

Anyone else is going out to pasture at a similar level to ours (or worse) and that is, realistically, where they'll end up going forward.

---------------------------------------------------------------


"People always talk about Ronaldinho and magic, but I didn't see him today. I saw Henrik Larsson; that's where the magic was."
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 Re: Player Loan Scheme
Topic Originator: ianbd6  
Date:   Sun 11 Apr 18:17

GG Riva I agree with you that if a club loans a player and has to pay his full wages then the parent club gets the greater benefit but if the parent club is covering part or all of the wages it has to benefit both club`s. I don`t understand why full-time club`s loan more than one player at a time I can only guess it is financial. Which gets the question why be full time if you can`t afford it or possibly go hybrid ( Sorry that`s another debate ) unfortunately the bigger club`s will always get the better young players because they can pay more. Who was the last lad to go through the system at Dunfermline and played in the top division on a regular basis. Sadly the provincial club`s have to do whatever they can to survive.

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 Re: Player Loan Scheme
Topic Originator: McCaig`s Tower  
Date:   Fri 16 Apr 15:19

The widespread use of the loan system is a symptom rather than the problem in its self.

This is a good point and illustrates a common failing (IMO) in many industries. (I would go further and suggest that the problem Socks identifies is one of many – I’m afraid I don’t have any answers right now).

I can’t help feeling that Scottish Football is driven too much by short-termism – partly due to its nature (we need a goal now! We need to win the next game!)

Obviously the major short- to medium- term problem currently is Covid which amongst other things means too many players and not enough places for them to get a game, so the loan system has taken some slack.

There seems to have been a progression over the years and I’m not sure which of the many stakeholders is benefiting.

Bigger teams used to sign good players from smaller teams. If they were very good they would go on to the Old Firm and ultimately to England. The direction of travel would be reversed after the players passed their peak.

Then the Old Firm would sign the best young players but not play them

Then they started to hoover up the best boys and discard most of them.

Now are they hoovering up the best boys and lending them out before discarding them.

Longer term we seem to be heading for an extreme where there are only 2 teams with 500 players each on their books and they just lend them out to the other teams as appropriate. In fact, I’m not sure that the intention in some parts is to do away with the other clubs altogether and just have two clubs with 15 teams each playing each other incessantly – maybe playing the odd home game at Cumbernauld or Airdrie or somewhere as some sort of sop.

I’ll toss some more random thoughts into the mix.

Craig Levein was of the view that it was hard for a player to improve by more than 1 tier a season – so if you are burning it up in Division 1 you’re probably going to have to spend a year in the Championship before you are ready for the Premiership.

A couple of years ago I had a conversation with a former player who suggested that at part-time level a big factor is which loan players you get – which suggests that to be a successful coach it’s better to have a good contacts book rather than coaching ability (do people still use books?)

Should we bother with reserve football? (I think we should as its absence has been missed. I still think an expanded Fife Cup affords an opportunity to play semi-competitive football at level intermediate to reserve football or friendlies and cup or league games.

On this latter point, when reading one of Sammer’s threads, I was struck by the number of games some players managed to accumulate at a young age in the old days. Why was that? Was that a function of an 18 team league allowing the Old Firm to give players games against the likes of Airdrie and Clyde or was that just necessity as they couldn’t bring in ready made foreign sta

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