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Topic Originator: GG Riva
Date: Fri 20 Aug 09:37
There's a lot of emphasis and time spent on the development of a growth or positive mindset in primary school children nowadays. It's undoubtedly something that can stand them in good stead throughout the rest of their lives.
Any footballer will tell you that a positive mindset is fundamental in the game. If you believe you will win, you might - if you think you will lose, you will. A manager who can instil this simple philosophy into his squad is half way to success. Talking to Pars players from the early 60s, it's obvious that Jock Stein had the skill to instil this self belief into his players. Geordie Peebles once told me "Big Jock made us feel 10 feet tall before a game. We believed we could beat anybody." Other players of that era said much the same thing.
Of course, there are many other factors which contribute to success on the pitch. A positive mindset will soon evaporate if the team has no game plan or organisation, no tactics or formation. Put them all into the mix and a team with no outstanding players can reasonably compete and succeed against more talented opponents.
Not your average Sunday League player.
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Topic Originator: 1970par
Date: Fri 20 Aug 12:41
I think we are going to win comfortably tonight, there I’ve gone and said it
Let’s get behind the team tonight and be the inspiration for a great victory to kick start our league campaign
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Topic Originator: General Zod
Date: Fri 20 Aug 13:49
Hmmm, you know, I don’t think it’s important at all. I think having a negative mindset is way better if you want success. Positive mindsets and believing you’ll win is for losers.
OBVIOUSLY. 😏
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Topic Originator: Toddyrov
Date: Fri 20 Aug 15:04
I think this is mostly dependant on the personality of the person and to what extent is some one positive. It can be helpful in certain situations however sometimes being a glass half empty type of person may produce positive results eg “I’m gonna fail this test” my friend is like this but it’s a main feature of his anxiety and he studies hard and always passes. Hope this made sense I typed it in a rush !
Mon the pars tonight !!!
Effe
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Topic Originator: Socks
Date: Fri 20 Aug 15:20
That`s pretty much my view as well. People are just different and I always find the `positivity at all costs` mantra of some people to be both irritating and lacking in sense, when they want people other than themselves to apply it. If it helps you then fine, but some people are just naturally quieter and more cautious than others - introverts. It`s not wrong.
If constant positivity is your thing (I`m not addressing this to anyone in particular) then fine, but just don`t try to impose it on everyone else. I`m absolutely certain some players go into games against better teams thinking `there`s more chance we`ll lose than win, but we have a chance if we play well`, rather than simply `we`re going to go out and win today`.
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Topic Originator: theparsman1885
Date: Fri 20 Aug 16:46
Socks wrote:
> That`s pretty much my view as well. People are just different
> and I always find the `positivity at all costs` mantra of some
> people to be both irritating and lacking in sense, when they
> want people other than themselves to apply it. If it helps you
> then fine, but some people are just naturally quieter and more
> cautious than others - introverts. It`s not wrong.
>
> If constant positivity is your thing (I`m not addressing this
> to anyone in particular) then fine, but just don`t try to
> impose it on everyone else. I`m absolutely certain some players
> go into games against better teams thinking `there`s more
> chance we`ll lose than win, but we have a chance if we play
> well`, rather than simply `we`re going to go out and win
> today`.
>
>
This.
I’m addition, Nothing worse than fake positivity which is what I think many on here want to have, almost delusion. Support the team by all means, but don’t be afraid to criticise when it’s needed.
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Topic Originator: Benny74
Date: Fri 20 Aug 17:25
I have also spoken to a few of the team that were managed by Jock Stein Mr G and the way he made them feel special and invincible was obviously a huge part of it. The other thing that he did, which seems common amongst the greatest managers, from what I have seen, is he made it very simple for players. Brian Clough seems to have been brilliant at that "just pass it to someone wearing the same jersey as you and if the other team get it win it back as quickly as possible". The system is still important but it seemed to exist in the managers head with the final bit of stardust being the ability to spot the best players for each role.
Benny74
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Topic Originator: SeasonedPar
Date: Fri 20 Aug 19:32
It’s all about the mindset. Scottish teams have to overcome 50,000 old firm fans and a biased media every game.
“Keeping it simple” is just an illustration of a positive mind set, although straight talking ex-miner Jock Stein would never have called it that.
2nd min at Ibrox - hoof it up the park. Or try a daft pass - which if it comes off - inspires confidence all round. Win your first tackle - all eg’s of mind set.
You can be extrovert or quiet, but that competitive streak is part of the mind games which can make the difference with fine margins.
COYP!!
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Topic Originator: Gadgie59
Date: Fri 20 Aug 23:57
I would say that it is pretty much impossible to overstate the significance of mindset - either positive or negative.
From an anthropological perspective, in tribal civilisation seen on every continent, there is a common social structure. Two of the key roles being ‘The Chief’ and ‘The Shaman’. The Chief can typically be seen as a strong leader, often through certain attributes such as character and strength. The Shaman, however, was often more powerful and feared.
Shamanism is still practiced today, even in modern (civilised?) society. A lot of alternative medicine comes from it. Some of the effects achieved can be and are spectacular, but can sometimes be distilled down to simply believing.
Actually, Christianity proclaims much the same thing .... if you genuinely, totally believe - anything is possible. Move mountains, walk on water or through fire.
I’ve read a couple of biographies on Jock Stein, one by Bob Crampsey and one by Archie MacPherson. I suspect that Jock possessed a bit of both “The Chief” and “The Shaman”.
“Football is a beautiful game,
It should be played beautifully.”
Brian Clough.
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Topic Originator: sammer
Date: Sat 21 Aug 01:58
Some of you will remember George Chuvalo the bruising, Canadian heavyweight boxer from the 1960s who twice went the distance with Ali. He was only stopped twice- by Frazier and Foreman- but he never kissed the canvas. An incredible record for a heavyweight who fought over 90 times. He never went down. Name another heavyweight, a champion even, who never was floored. I can`t think of one. He`s still alive by the way.
Chuvalo said that he every time he fought he believed he could win. He was so durable he reckoned he had a chance even with better fighters than him. He was crude, employing head butts, knees to the groin, low punches, gouges, elbows and standing on toes. But he always believed he could win.
And when he didn`t, which was not so often, he knew the man that beat him was worse off than him. He tells the story of his first Ali fight which was quite a close verdict: `Ali went to hospital peeing blood and I went home and took my wife out dancing. I met Ali`s wife years later and she joked he couldn`t make love to her for a month. My wife never complained of that.`
That`s a mentality that is very helpful at top levels of sport, especially if you are not gifted with natural talent. There`s a lot of talk about skills and academies which is fine, but unless you have a Jock Stein or a Roy Barry at the heart of your team much of your skill will stay on the magnetic tactics board.
sammer
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Topic Originator: neils
Date: Sat 21 Aug 07:57
I think in sport it`s crucial, even arrogance is kind of needed, the mental strength needed to excel is extraordinary and overlooked- even to be a journeyman player deserves respect
As for the workplace, there`s nothing more depressing than motivational garbage, I only had it one place, and it`s just fake and meaningless.
`Concentrate on your strengths` is danger, no one has achieved anything meaningful by doing that, you actually need to work on weakness! Learning to deal with failure/danger is probably our most important functions as humans and is ignored, we are way too risk averse.
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Topic Originator: OzPar
Date: Sat 21 Aug 08:38
Whilst I agree that you can stick the motivational stuff where the sun doesn`t shine, in my experience, there is nothing worse than working with someone who is constantly negative.
Of course, there is a huge difference between someone who adopts a cautious approach and someone who is instinctively on a downer. The latter almost inevitably guarantees you failure.
Not since Leishman really, have we had a manager who didn`t view a match against Celtic or Rangers with anything other than deep trepidation. The result being that we`ve shown way too much respect and inevitably we got cuffed.
I could have cried the day that Bert Paton crawled into a press conference on his hands and knees after we got hammered by Celtic. He was a part of the great sixties side and he should never have done that. Similarly, with Calderwood we knew we were beaten before we went to Ibrox. I have always hated that in-built negativity in Pars managers.
Yet guys like John Robertson and Yogi Hughes have repeatedly managed to get wins for provincial clubs at the Old Firm.
So give me a positive mindset please, or at least give me a manager who can convey to his team the eternally true message that...
NO PROBLEM IS INSURMOUNTABLE!
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Topic Originator: helensburghpar
Date: Sat 21 Aug 09:06
OzPar the game you`re talking about when Bert Paton crawled in on his hands and knees was actually Rangers at Ibrox. We lost seven nil and I was there unfortunately. Agree with your sentiments though.
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Topic Originator: GG Riva
Date: Sat 21 Aug 16:03
Quote:
theparsman1885, Fri 20 Aug 16:46
Nothing worse than fake positivity which is what I think many on here want to have, almost delusion. Support the team by all means, but don’t be afraid to criticise when it’s needed.
With respect, parsman, there's no such thing as "fake positivity" - you either truly believe you can overcome a particular challenge, in which case you have a chance, or you're just kidding yourself, (or in football your manager) in which case you almost certainly won't.
Not your average Sunday League player.
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Topic Originator: GG Riva
Date: Mon 23 Aug 09:00
I was pleased to hear Nuno Espirito Santo say that the first step towards building a successful team is for players to believe.
Like some Pars fans, many Spurs fans were underwhelmed when their new manager was appointed. It's early days, but they may be pleasantly surprised.
Not your average Sunday League player.
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Topic Originator: Ronaldo
Date: Mon 23 Aug 10:30
I always remember Michael Parkinson`s verdict when Goran Ivanisevic blew Tim Henman off the court on the second day of the rain-delayed Wimbledon semi-final in 2001: Tim Henman thought he could win it; Goran Ivanisevic knew he was going to.
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Topic Originator: McCaig`s Tower
Date: Mon 23 Aug 15:23
So how does this work in, say, the Olympic 100m final? Do all 8 athletes believe they are going to win?
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Topic Originator: GG Riva
Date: Mon 23 Aug 15:31
Quote:
McCaig`s Tower, Mon 23 Aug 15:23
So how does this work in, say, the Olympic 100m final? Do all 8 athletes believe they are going to win?
I'd bet my house on it, MT. ☺ Nobody would with a negative mindset could possibly make the final 8. Of course only one athlete can win it, but that doesn't stop all the finalists believing they can.
I wonder how positive Jacobs was before his gold medal run, but nobody gave him a chance. Would he have clinched gold if he had been similarly pessimistic? I very much doubt it.
Not your average Sunday League player.
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Topic Originator: Socks
Date: Mon 23 Aug 15:58
Nah, I`m not believing for a second that every athlete who makes it to an Olympic final is absolutely convinced they`re going to win. Were that the case, everyone other than the winner would be utterly miserable afterwards, but you quite often see people who are obviously very happy to finish second, third, or further down having run a good time, or done themselves justice given where they have recently been in terns of fitness/injury.
The Ivanisevic example above just seems like a typical simplification. Nobody knows with 100% certainty what their result is going to be before they go out, at any level. When I ran semi-seriously, sometimes I`d know I was having a good day, totally focussed and that a good time was possible. But, sometimes I`d feel awful and have to ease off. When something is going well, of course you feel some confidence to carry it on, but that`s very different to pretending you know you`re going to win before you start.
The idea that you cannot achieve any kind of success without an overwhelmingly positive attitude prior to competition is just nonsense.
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Topic Originator: sammer
Date: Mon 23 Aug 16:23
There’s a difference between expecting to win and believing you can win. Sticking with the 100 metres, Usain Bolt in his prime would have expected to win every race and been distraught if he had missed a gold medal. Jacobs would probably not have expected to win but would have known he was well capable if, as Socks says, everything clicked into place.
January 1968, Parkhead. Celtic expected to win at home in the first round of the Scottish Cup. But The Pars were in good form and knew that they were well capable of winning on the day. Which they did, deservedly. Manager George Farm had been confident enough of avoiding defeat to print tickets for a replay, which he proudly threw in a dustbin for the benefit of news reporters.
sammer
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Topic Originator: McCaig`s Tower
Date: Mon 23 Aug 17:14
It seems to me that a lot of sport is about:
developing the ability - through training or practice
translating that ability into performance on the day
competing - tactics or strategy designed to give you an advantage over your opponents.
I chose the 100m final as an example as I think the 3rd element is largely absent. Basically, you are trying to run as fast as you can. If someone runs faster, so be it. But how do you make it more likely that you perform to your ability?
This is something we can apply to our own sporting endeavours, be it the monthly medal or the pub darts league. Why do we underperform sometimes and what can we do about it?
As for the Pars - I haven`t produced any analysis, but I would have said that we have an appalling record at Ibrox - hardly ever winning, frequently getting gubbed. That can`t be coincidence, surely? So what`s going wrong? And how can it be fixed?
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Topic Originator: Grant
Date: Mon 23 Aug 20:48
Quote:
McCaig`s Tower, Mon 23 Aug 17:14
, but I would have said that we have an appalling record at Ibrox - hardly ever winning, frequently getting gubbed. That can`t be coincidence, surely? So what`s going wrong? And how can it be fixed?
What's going wrong?
They have facilities that far outstrip our own, they'll lose a handful of domestic games over a period of years...
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Topic Originator: GG Riva
Date: Tue 24 Aug 07:13
"Nah, I`m not believing for a second that every athlete who makes it to an Olympic final is absolutely convinced they`re going to win."
That`s not what I was claiming, Socks. Everyone of these athletes would be convinced they COULD win, which gave them a chance of a medal. How could Jacobs have won gold if he felt he was lucky to be in the final and was just making up the numbers?
Not your average Sunday League player.
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