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 Untangling the Issues
Topic Originator: Stanza  
Date:   Thu 7 Oct 13:25

Perhaps we need to step back a bit from all the (understandably) passionate comments of the last few days, and try to distinguish between the different strands of the tangle we have got ourselves into.

1 Manager & coaching staff - everyone knows the results and performances have been awful. But we are where we are and whether the answer is to change the management is a matter of judgment - removing the present incumbents would certainly be financially damaging and there is no guarantee any new people would improve the results significantly enough to justify it. The BoD have made a decision, presumably based on information they are privy too, and we must all live with the consequences and hope they are right. Personally, I will always support those who are in post, as long as I believe they are trying their best.

2 Criticism & abuse - there is a line between fair, vocal (even sweary) criticism and personal abuse, and there is no doubt SOME Pars fans (a very small minority) have crossed that line in recent weeks, both at Dumfries and online. No decent supporter should object to bad behaviour being called out as unacceptable.

3 Board members - there have been suggestions made on this forum and elsewhere that some of the "old" and "new" Board members have ulterior motives for being there, ie for personal or commercial gain. I simply do not believe that - I'm pretty sure every single one would be much better off financially had they never got involved with DAFC.

4 Board statement - I have posted elsewhere that I believe it was tone-deaf, too long, overly-defensive and confrontational. There have been a few alternatives put forward on this forum which IMO would have got the same points across without much of the adverse reaction from the fan base. But one mis-step should not mean that mass resignations are in order - I believe that would be counter-productive and the club would get into a downward spiral it would be hard to escape from.

5 Protests & non-attendance - everyone has the right to do what they think is best, and in particular how they spend their money. No criticism should be levelled against either those who take part in a public protest or those who don't, or against those who cancel or continue their Lifeline or attendances.
But the sub-text of the Board statement read to me that the directors/owners believe recent events and actions risk deterring future investment (perhaps negotiations are/were in place for that?) Damaging the long-term stability of the club IMO really has to be avoided - we have all worked so hard and sacrificed so much to get the club in a position where it is attractive to investors and stands a chance of being promoted (and flourishing) in the short/medium term.

All we need are some wins on the field!

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 Re: Untangling the Issues
Topic Originator: Berry  
Date:   Thu 7 Oct 13:39

Nice try Stanza but do think you’re clutching at straws a bit here.

It’s likely to be more financially damaging keeping management in place for starters.
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 Re: Untangling the Issues
Topic Originator: Never10yairds  
Date:   Thu 7 Oct 13:40

On point 2, can you state what specifically was said that you felt crossed the line?

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 Re: Untangling the Issues
Topic Originator: Berry  
Date:   Thu 7 Oct 13:49

On point 4, calling it a ‘mis-step’ is misguided in my opinion.

The quotes from Meggle, the tone I’m ok with to be honest taking into account his nationality. Didn’t agree with everything he said but I don’t think there was an intentional personal dig at the fans.

The last paragraph, clearly from RM, isn’t a mis-step, it’s a blatant dig at the fans that are already at the end of their tether. Us fans aren’t giving a good impression to our new Sponsors and Investors…..not really sure on the footballing side what good impression he’s been giving…

Truly was a deliberately honking statement, couple of examples shown on here that likely took all of ten mins to draw up would’ve been much better received.
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 Re: Untangling the Issues
Topic Originator: MDCCCLXXXV  
Date:   Thu 7 Oct 14:25

On another thread someone mentions that board or management were Spat at, if true then they are lucky its just a strongly written statement. I can handle as much abuse as anyone can roar at me , but if you spat at me your gonna get a slap in the pus.
Could you imagine what would be said on these boards if RM turned and dragged the offender over the wall and gave him a goin over.

East End Park is a symbol of all that is DAFC.
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 Re: Untangling the Issues
Topic Originator: brian  
Date:   Thu 7 Oct 14:27

Excellent post Stanza
At least some sensible dialogue and suggestions.

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 Re: Untangling the Issues
Topic Originator: rossmcno1  
Date:   Thu 7 Oct 14:29

It’s the lack of specifics in the statement about the abuse from fans that makes it a tougher read. See if that had been included, (if true re the spitting which is absolutely disgraceful) then I think it makes a whole world difference.

Regardless, results have been awful, football has been terrible to watch, complete underperformance and horrendous communication from the board.

BUT no one should be getting that kind of abuse.

How to fix it…. Another statement(better worded!!) and retract the previous one. Show some humility to the fans and look to unite.



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 Re: Untangling the Issues
Topic Originator: Berry  
Date:   Thu 7 Oct 14:34

Quote:

MDCCCLXXXV, Thu 07 Oct 14:25

On another thread someone mentions that board or management were Spat at, if true then they are lucky its just a strongly written statement. I can handle as much abuse as anyone can roar at me , but if you spat at me your gonna get a slap in the pus.
Could you imagine what would be said on these boards if RM turned and dragged the offender over the wall and gave him a goin over.


Obviously bang out of order, that’s surely one incident I’m assuming, providing its factual, it’s not happening every week, the note references several weeks so if they are using that to have a go at the wider fan base I think that’s a poor way to do it.
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 Re: Untangling the Issues
Topic Originator: dannorm  
Date:   Thu 7 Oct 14:34

Sorry but got to we are where we are. Not for long on the current trajectory.

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 Re: Untangling the Issues
Topic Originator: Stanza  
Date:   Thu 7 Oct 14:38

Quote:

Never10yairds, Thu 7 Oct 13:40

On point 2, can you state what specifically was said that you felt crossed the line?


I don't know everything that has been said, and I won't repeat what I do know, but it crossed the line as far as I am concerned, particularly as the recipient's family were present. I accept we might all draw the line at different points.

Even worse, I have heard (from what I consider a reliable source) that someone spat on the Chairman's back on Sunday while he was in M&S buying flowers for his wife. To be fair, the culprit was not apprehended so there is no evidence that he was a Pars fan, but given the toxic climate recently I think it's a fair assumption.

It's the well-recognised pyramid situation - where there is a wide base of discontent (justified or not) some will take things to the next level of toxic comments, a small number to the next level of abuse and a few to the level of criminal actions. Everything we say or do has consequences.

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 Re: Untangling the Issues
Topic Originator: wee eck  
Date:   Thu 7 Oct 14:44

The final paragraph of the statement was not aimed at the majority of fans at all. It specifically mentions a `handful` of fans at the game on Saturday and also online abuse directed at the board.

At Dumfries the fans were farther away from the players and staff as they left the field than they were at Ayr. I didn`t see any spitting but that doesn`t mean it didn`t happen. No one who reads this forum can seriously challenge the statement about online abuse. It`s perfectly justified in my view.

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 Re: Untangling the Issues
Topic Originator: Stanza  
Date:   Thu 7 Oct 14:45

Quote:

Berry, Thu 7 Oct 13:39

It’s likely to be more financially damaging keeping management in place for starters.


That's possible, but any financial damage is primarily suffered by those who are making the decisions, which is only right.

There is simply no guarantee that the cost of dismissing and replacing the management team would pay off. It might, but it's a judgment call.

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 Re: Untangling the Issues
Topic Originator: Stanza  
Date:   Thu 7 Oct 14:51

Quote:

Grant, Thu 7 Oct 13:28

Disagree with pretty much every point you've made there tbh.


Which you are entitled to do, it's a discussion forum.

None of us has the right to speak for anyone else, or to claim that all Pars fans hold the same views - most don't even frequent this forum and many don't know of its existence.

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 Re: Untangling the Issues
Topic Originator: Berry  
Date:   Thu 7 Oct 14:54

Quote:

wee eck, Thu 07 Oct 14:44

The final paragraph of the statement was not aimed at the majority of fans at all. It specifically mentions a `handful` of fans at the game on Saturday and also online abuse directed at the board.

At Dumfries the fans were farther away from the players and staff as they left the field than they were at Ayr. I didn`t see any spitting but that doesn`t mean it didn`t happen. No one who reads this forum can seriously challenge the statement about online abuse. It`s perfectly justified in my view.


So why does the statement not stop at the QOTS game then? They’ve said and I quote:

‘However, the events of the last few weeks have certainly not made for a positive portrayal of our club to our new investors and potential new sponsors.’

Fans aren’t allowed to vent their frustration because the board messed up, a mess up that was called out before a ball was even kicked, a really poor managerial appointment and shocking team performances.

I’m not condoning what happened at QOTS but it shouldn’t have got to that stage, hostility was brewing for a while and the board hid away when they should’ve pulled the trigger, they still haven’t…do they think it’s all going to be rainbows and sunshine when we finally get a win?

Can you imagine what the reaction is going to be in the next few weeks when PG gets the sack after not turning it around, we’ll be in a worse position and we’ll be looking back on the game weeks we’ve just thrown away.
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 Re: Untangling the Issues
Topic Originator: eastendalloapar  
Date:   Thu 7 Oct 15:00

John Simpson, UN special peace envoy.

matt forsyth
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 Re: Untangling the Issues
Topic Originator: Stanza  
Date:   Thu 7 Oct 15:01

Quote:

Berry, Thu 7 Oct 14:54

So why does the statement not stop at the QOTS game then?


Perhaps because there have been events since Dumfries which warranted the statement?

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 Re: Untangling the Issues
Topic Originator: Stanza  
Date:   Thu 7 Oct 15:03

Quote:

eastendalloapar, Thu 7 Oct 15:00

John Simpson, UN special peace envoy.


We're really in trouble then! :)

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 Re: Untangling the Issues
Topic Originator: oapar  
Date:   Thu 7 Oct 16:49

Stanza the voice of reason.

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 Re: Untangling the Issues
Topic Originator: davie moyes the first  
Date:   Thu 7 Oct 16:54

Very well presented mail John. My tuppence worth....

The main problem for me is not so much the results but the standard of performance and the organisation of the players. In every game bar the two home 0-0 draws we have lined up with a formation, been totally outplayed and had to change and go chasing the game at half time. I don’t see any improvement and the prospect of things changing for the better would require an influential midfielder. We have also heard of (true or not but where is Paul Watson ?) at least two senior players falling out of favour with the manager. On the basis of the above I would replace the current management team. The board don’t agree, which is their prerogative, but where they went wrong and riled the support was in using ridiculous facts to justify their decision. That is now the bed (of nails ?) which will forever be theirs.

On fan behaviour I don’t think what I have seen at Ayr and QOS was necessarily any worse than with AJ. The main point which highlighted it was that at both grounds the Manager had to walk across the pitch to a temporary changing facility which was right beside the visiting fans which heightened the opportunity for confrontation. I can’t comment on any other incidents.

Finally the statement from the Board. My tactic in communication is always say it as it is, put yourself in the place of those reading it, tell people what the next steps are and keep it brief and factual. The more words you use, the more likely you are to trip yourself up. This statement ignored all those rules and hence it has been dissected and interpreted by the readers in a million different ways, the vast majority of them being negative. Another bed of nails !!

I’ll keep supporting the team both in person and financially but absolutely respect the right of everyone else to take whatever steps they choose.

The biggest worries going forward are rescuing the season and how the board (that is the Scottish and German members now after Meggle’s input) rebuild the bridges with the fan base. The investors are now also seen as bad guys.I know that meetings for fans groups were being arranged even before the current debacle. Can’t come quickly enough now.



Post Edited (Thu 07 Oct 16:56)
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 Re: Untangling the Issues
Topic Originator: veteraneastender  
Date:   Thu 7 Oct 17:19

"The final paragraph of the statement was not aimed at the majority of fans at all. It specifically mentions a `handful` of fans at the game on Saturday and also online abuse directed at the board.

At Dumfries the fans were farther away from the players and staff as they left the field than they were at Ayr. I didn`t see any spitting but that doesn`t mean it didn`t happen. No one who reads this forum can seriously challenge the statement about online abuse. It`s perfectly justified in my view."

Those two final sentences might be misinterpreted ?

Just an observation.

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 Re: Untangling the Issues
Topic Originator: wee eck  
Date:   Thu 7 Oct 17:34

You seem to be the only one who has misinterpreted them but, just to clarify, in my opinion the board statement about online abuse is perfectly justified.

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 Re: Untangling the Issues
Topic Originator: veteraneastender  
Date:   Thu 7 Oct 17:43

"No one who reads this forum can seriously challenge the statement about online abuse. It`s perfectly justified in my view."

If you say so.

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