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 How Important is the Manager?
Topic Originator: Stanza  
Date:   Mon 8 Nov 14:42

I sometimes wonder how important in the long run it is to get the "right" manager for a football club.

Some interesting figures in this link. The stats are for England up to 2017/18, but I don`t expect Scotland or more recent seasons to be much different.
https://www.onlinebetting.org.uk/betting-guides/football/football-manager-lifespan.html

About half the clubs in the league change their manager during the season, usually by sacking the present incumbent. Very few managers stay at the same club for more than 2-3 years, and the average length of time in post is about 1.5 years. In the 1960s the average was 4 years, showing that expectations and demands have risen while patience has declined. The Championship turnover of managers is even higher than that of the Premier League, probably due to the desperation to get out of it.

Successful teams obviously keep their managers for longer, but only 3 managers in the modern era (Ferguson, Wenger, Moyes) kept their post for over 7 years. Clubs that change their manager most frequently tend to be those whose status is declining well below expectations (eg Nottingham Forest, Coventry City, QPR, Oldham).

Occasionally there is a left-field managerial appointment where everything aligns and a club`s short-term success is much greater than previous history or current expectations would suggest (Stein at Dunfermline is an obvious example) - but in the long term things revert to the norm. And clearly some managers not only fail to meet expectations but can actually do short-term damage, even relegation. But again, if a club`s structure is sound then in time its fortunes will be restored.

But most managers will leave a club occupying roughly the same position in the pecking order that it was in when they joined, and any dramatic moves (up or down) will be corrected in time.

So perhaps in the long term the most important thing for any football club is to get the external factors right, in particular the finances and facilities, and accept that most managerial appointments will have a minimal impact on long term success. It can take years to get things right, and it`s not as exciting as hoping that the next manager will be the new Jock Stein, but perhaps it makes sense.

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 Re: How Important is the Manager?
Topic Originator: Parfect69  
Date:   Mon 8 Nov 14:52

Very, I would suggest.
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 Re: How Important is the Manager?
Topic Originator: Never10yairds  
Date:   Mon 8 Nov 15:05

It’s by far the most important position at any football club. He recruits the players and coaches, he picks the team and tactics every week, he instructs the coaches what they should be worked on in training. Most importantly he is responsible for man management and motivation.

Vital.

You can win trophies with a hot and cold winger, a centre back who switches off occasionally or a goalie who lets in the odd howler. It’s very hard to win anything with a crap manager though.

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 Re: How Important is the Manager?
Topic Originator: evo!  
Date:   Mon 8 Nov 15:43

Wonder if football will ever see a managerless team, players just figure out themselves? Subs, formation, training routine etc

BEAST!
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 Re: How Important is the Manager?
Topic Originator: GG Riva  
Date:   Mon 8 Nov 16:09

Of course the manager's role is hugely important at any club, but the OP points out that, over a longer timescale, it's far less significant.

Most fans are only interested in the here and now though, not a club's entire history, so for the Pars, getting the right manager in, to not only steady the ship, but drag us up the table this season, is absolutely paramount. If we were to be relegated, it would be unthinkable - many fans could be lost and never return.



Not your average Sunday League player.
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 Re: How Important is the Manager?
Topic Originator: wulliepar57  
Date:   Mon 8 Nov 16:19

I agree with you GG Riva
Due to this season's results already there are many fans not returning to EEP
However many won't be lost and will return if we get the right manager in to turn the tide ! Not an easy task so getting the right person for the job is very important
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 Re: How Important is the Manager?
Topic Originator: 1985Par  
Date:   Mon 8 Nov 17:05

Is relegation part of the natural cycle for a club like ours? Raith and Partick seem to have come back stronger after a stint in league 1. Livingston went from league 1 to premier in the blink of an eye. And stayed there. It would appear that Hearts are in better shape than ever, on and off the pitch. Relegation or regeneration?

( goes off at tangent) - how did Livi do that? Why has David Hopkin not really kicked on in his career? How can a manager do so well fo a season or two then never reach those heights again?



Post Edited (Mon 08 Nov 17:14)
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 Re: How Important is the Manager?
Topic Originator: AdamAntsParsStripe  
Date:   Mon 8 Nov 17:25

Quote:

evo!, Mon 8 Nov 15:43

Wonder if football will ever see a managerless team, players just figure out themselves? Subs, formation, training routine etc


Never going to happen. Players actually want to be managed.
The days of committees picking the team are long behind us.

Zwei Pints Bier und ein Päckchen Chips bitte
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 Re: How Important is the Manager?
Topic Originator: Indiapar  
Date:   Mon 8 Nov 17:34

You need to be thinking longer term to align with the clubs policy on development. There is no quick fix here. We are probably looking at another 1 or 2 seasons in the championship. We have gone backwards this year so someone prepared to be at the club and develop the team over 3 years is essential.
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 Re: How Important is the Manager?
Topic Originator: eastendalloapar  
Date:   Mon 8 Nov 17:50

I have always thought that there are 2 people that should be in charge of the team. The manager should set up the team and explain about the opposition. The captain should take control of the team when on the pitch this includes geeing up players, positioning at corners etc and possibly having to keep them in order. At present our captain is the keeper, the only area he should command is his box ie getting a wall in line.

matt forsyth
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 Re: How Important is the Manager?
Topic Originator: msgribbin  
Date:   Mon 8 Nov 18:28


Agree with the poster, over the long term most clubs fortunes show regression to the mean based upon their income/size etc - with obvious exceptions of clubs with vastly wealthy new owners, as we`ve seen with Man City etc

But I think the question`s also a good one in a more basic sense, one that struck me often during all of the Peter Grant discussions. We now have a Director of Football. But I don`t think we have a clear sense of how responsibilities are shared between the manager and DoF roles. There are different models for this. Sometimes the DoF is deeply involved in devising the playing/tactical philosophy and player recruitment, sometimes less so. To be honest I was surprised when PG was sacked because my reading of the Board statement suggested to me that Meggle and Grant were essentially taking joint responsibility for turning things around. Perhaps not as it turned out but, at minimum, it struck me that the vision is for Meggle to be an active DoF......

And in that context the manager really can be less important. I think it would be interesting to understand where the club are on this, not least because it follows that the next managerial appointment may not be as significant as we`d tend to suppose.

On another note, whoever`s responsible for bringing us out of the mire has their work cut out. With only one or two exceptions, our players are inconsistent and seem to lack basic positional awareness. They can grow and improve, not interested in giving up on them but that`s where we are now. What`s more worrying is the lack of resilience and leadership. We don`t seem to have enough strong personalities for the fight. Now resilience is forged in adversity so again not giving up on them but, let`s be honest, its going to be a tough job to turn this around.

And finally I`d really almost given up on this site - just felt very negative, repetitive and nasty for the sake of it at times - until I read the long thread where Rastapari started talking really interesting stuff about his athletics background and it grew into a great conversation, with folk who`ve got struggles in common supporting one another. It was bloody excellent to read, credit to you all

Mark G
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 Re: How Important is the Manager?
Topic Originator: sammer  
Date:   Mon 8 Nov 19:03

I agree with EEAP that the manager and the captain are the two most significant individuals related to team performance on match day. Our two trophies were won under an outstanding manager in Jock Stein in 1961 and an inspiring captain in Roy Barry in 1968. This season I think many supporters would be struggling to name the team captain, and the manager unfortunately proved to be ineffective.

The position of DoF I assume is there to provide some continuity and to prevent a squad being clogged up with unwise buys from a manager who may not last very long. If that’s the case then on present evidence Thomas Meggle, if he is DoF, has made an uncertain start.

sammer
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 Re: How Important is the Manager?
Topic Originator: Buspasspar  
Date:   Mon 8 Nov 19:37

Excellent post Mark G

We are forever shaped by the Children we once were
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 Re: How Important is the Manager?
Topic Originator: MDCCCLXXXV  
Date:   Mon 8 Nov 19:59

I remember Souness describing Ray Wilkins as a young players dream, you didn't need a manager or a captain with Wilkins on the park.

He done it all, with a smile on his face and he done it with style. Never stood on anyone's toes and gained respect doing it

East End Park is a symbol of all that is DAFC.
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 Re: How Important is the Manager?
Topic Originator: McCaig`s Tower  
Date:   Tue 9 Nov 15:09

That’s an interesting link Stanza - lots of stuff to chew over. I think 21 of the current SPFL managers (which would be half of a full slate) have been in charge for more than 1 year. Jim McInally is longest serving at just over 10 years, Dick Campbell is 2nd, Petrie is 3rd and Darren Young is in 5th place.

I’m sure even in the relatively recent past (at Stranraer, possibly) there was no manager and teams were selected by committee. Certainly the coaching staff at many clubs consisted solely of a “trainer” who doubled as sponge man. As AAPS hints, I’m not sure you could get away with that now, players seem to be a conservative bunch who mistrust different ways of doing things, although also prone to superstitions and basis psychology. I wonder what effect there would be if you told them “we’ve got an agronomist on board – that will give us an advantage over other clubs who think they can get away without one”.

As for senior players organising themselves on the pitch, I think it was Terry Venables who was reputed to have told his team at Chelsea to do it his way, not the boss’s way (I think it must have been during Tommy Docherty’s reign).

Yes, the manager is an important role - ages ago, I think I suggested about 18 or so areas where a manager’s performance could be judged – on things like player recruitment, youth development and community engagement, not just results on the park, but it the last that gets the focus (when there may be many external factors at play).

Perhaps, as has been suggested by msgribbin (and hinted at by 1985par) many clubs go through a natural cycle. The team improves (perhaps as the manager learns his trade), matures, then ages. Success may be determined by where other teams are in their cycle, but essentially you expect a reversion to the mean sooner or later (subject to any paradigm shift occasioned by promotion/relegation or financial doping). So there’s an argument that once a manager finds their feet, they tend to make little positive difference.

As an aside, it always seems hard luck on a manager who may get a team to out-perform, then gets the bullet because he can’t repeat that trick.

Once again I will trot out one of my favourite stats – over the last 50 years our averaging finishing position is about 16th – it’s got a little worse over the last two or three years as our 3rd place in 1969 has dropped out of the average – but you could argue that any finishing position within about 6 places of 4th in the Championship would not be a big shock – which, given the structure – includes finishing bottom this year.

As for Jock Stein – he was transformational – he enabled massive outperformance, but arguably the effect had largely dissipated within 5 years of his departure. As I suggested on the other thread, trying to repeat a 100-1 shot may not be wise.

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 Re: How Important is the Manager?
Topic Originator: kozmasrightfoot  
Date:   Tue 9 Nov 16:54

I think the cleaner is more important. Everybody has a morning poo, and if that evacuation takes place in a dirty toilet, it throws your hole day into disarray.

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 Re: How Important is the Manager?
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Tue 9 Nov 21:50

I think somebody else pointed out that we have been exceptionally far up the gum tree this season in that we`ve had no effective leadership from the manager and on top of that, no effective leadership on the pitch either. Ashford and Murray being huuuuuuuuuge losses in that respect. I don`t see how we`re gonna survive till we fix that.
So I`d be keen to see us sign a player of that bullish mindset (or to put it another way someone with a Buster Gonad sized scroat.)



Post Edited (Tue 09 Nov 22:01)
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 Re: How Important is the Manager?
Topic Originator: twin par  
Date:   Tue 9 Nov 23:42

Agree.Was at the game on Saturday, in hospitality with the wife.She asked who the captain was,and to my severe embarrassment, could not tell her.There was no obvious leader,no norrie character, nobody barking orders,just a bloody shambles.

Post Edited (Tue 09 Nov 23:43)
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 Re: How Important is the Manager?
Topic Originator: DA-go Par Adonis  
Date:   Tue 9 Nov 23:46

Connolly seems to be both vocal and a natural leader on the pitch.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I love it when we go sell Kevin Nisbet,
He's gonna pay for everyone this season.
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 Re: How Important is the Manager?
Topic Originator: PARrot  
Date:   Wed 10 Nov 01:09

The Most Important Body Part

One day the different parts of the body were having an argument to see which should be in charge.
The brain said "I do all the thinking so I'm the most important and I should be in charge."
The eyes said "I see everything and let the rest of you know where we are, so I'm the most important and I should be in charge."
The hands said "Without me we wouldn't be able to pick anything up or move anything. So I'm the most important and I should be in charge."
The stomach said "I turn the food we eat into energy for the rest of you. Without me, we'd starve. So I'm the most important and I should be in charge."
The legs said "Without me we wouldn't be able to move anywhere. So I'm the most important and I should be in charge."
Then the rectum said "I think I should be in charge."
All the rest of the parts said "YOU? You don't do anything! You're not important! You can't be in charge."
So the rectum closed up. After a few days, the legs were all wobbly, the stomach was all queasy, the hands were all shaky, the eyes were all watery, and the brain was all cloudy.
They all agreed that they couldn't take any more of this and agreed to put the rectum in charge.
The moral of the story: You don't have to be the most important to be in charge, just an *******.

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 Re: How Important is the Manager?
Topic Originator: Rigger Al  
Date:   Wed 10 Nov 02:00

Quote:

PARrot, Wed 10 Nov 01:09

The Most Important Body Part

One day the different parts of the body were having an argument to see which should be in charge.
The brain said "I do all the thinking so I'm the most important and I should be in charge."
The eyes said "I see everything and let the rest of you know where we are, so I'm the most important and I should be in charge."
The hands said "Without me we wouldn't be able to pick anything up or move anything. So I'm the most important and I should be in charge."
The stomach said "I turn the food we eat into energy for the rest of you. Without me, we'd starve. So I'm the most important and I should be in charge."
The legs said "Without me we wouldn't be able to move anywhere. So I'm the most important and I should be in charge."
Then the rectum said "I think I should be in charge."
All the rest of the parts said "YOU? You don't do anything! You're not important! You can't be in charge."
So the rectum closed up. After a few days, the legs were all wobbly, the stomach was all queasy, the hands were all shaky, the eyes were all watery, and the brain was all cloudy.
They all agreed that they couldn't take any more of this and agreed to put the rectum in charge.
The moral of the story: You don't have to be the most important to be in charge, just an *******.

:):):)
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 Re: How Important is the Manager?
Topic Originator: GG Riva  
Date:   Wed 10 Nov 07:26

That made me laugh, Parrot. 😂🤣 👏👏👏

Edited to add. Was that a profound political analogy?

A guy called Boris was asking.....



Not your average Sunday League player.


Post Edited (Wed 10 Nov 15:53)
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