DAFC.net
Home 19 August 2022 
 Post Message  |  Top of Board  |  Go to Topic  |  Search  |  Twitter Updates  |  Log In   Forum Rules  |  Newer Topic  |  Older Topic  |  end 
[ please login to use the Like feature ]
 How Big Are We?
Topic Originator: PARrot  
Date:   Sun 22 May 12:57

Some of us were spoiled in the 60`s another group became accustomed to cup finals in the 90`s, which ultimately led to our demise.

Other than that we have been a bang average team for 100 years.

Much of that time has actually been spent in lower leagues.

So why do so many of us think we are a great attraction for anything other than an average manager.
We have a bigger fan base than teams around us and a bit more cash, but not so much more that it will make a huge difference.
I don`t see a quick return to the top level on the horizon. It seems a bit further away to me.
Its gonny take a lot of patience building from scratch.
Then again we might just make the right appointment and get a squad that gel. Who knows?
Fitba is indeed a funny old game.

[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: How Big Are We?
Topic Originator: theparsman1885  
Date:   Sun 22 May 13:13

1 cup final in the 90’s

00’s saw 3 and 2 x European trips that cost us.

Reality is we are underperforming, but not to extent of being a solid premier league side. We probably naturally sit between 11th and 15th in the whole of Scottish football

[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: How Big Are We?
Topic Originator: GG Riva  
Date:   Sun 22 May 14:00

We are a "middle order" club, as defined by the late Bob Crampsey. Not as big as the big city clubs, but bigger than teams from small population centres.

Our fan base is decent and would be even better if we had an attractive, winning team on the park. Getting into the Premiership and staying there is a big ask, but it can be done, as other clubs of similar standing (Motherwell, Kilmarnock, St Mirren) have demonstrated. The sponsorship income and large visiting supports can help balance the books of clubs with smaller fan bases than ours - Livi, St Johnstone, Ross Co.



Not your average Sunday League player.
[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: How Big Are We?
Topic Originator: Ben,D.A  
Date:   Sun 22 May 14:55

I was lucky enough to have a season ticket as a young lad as my father worked with the development club, whose office was in the New row. I never missed a home game, first team or reserves.
Midweek football in European games were common place for me back then.
The 70`s we were a yo yo club, the 80`s season gave us a taste of what we wanted were and the 90`s showed some success in cup runs but the 20 we were back in Europe, only this time we weren`t able to keep up momentum. It`s football and that`s what happens. Dundee United, Aberdeen, hearts, hibs ect ect have had there seasons of success and misery, It`s football
Kelty, Cove, Edinburgh city and are all at the peak of their History and many more will follow.
We will come strong again and it now looks like a few years before we can, we will not disappear like Berwick, Brechin, Cowdenbeath, East Stirling and for that we should be grateful.

only 11 make the team,the rest can just but dream.
[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: How Big Are We?
Topic Originator: vasco  
Date:   Sun 22 May 15:29

The Pars, despite a dreadful season for results and performances were still second in the Championship for average attendance with 3,615. A thousand behind Kilmarnock and and over a thousand ahead of Partick Thistle who were third.

We were less than a hundred fewer than Livingston who finished 7th in the Premiership with one point more than Dundee United who were 4th.

Playing decent football and being reasonably successful would surely get the crowds back, there is a latent fan base at The Pars waiting to be tapped if we get the right management and coaching staff recruited.

[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: How Big Are We?
Topic Originator: JnrB  
Date:   Sun 22 May 15:37

Livingston also had multiple visits from rangers, Celtic, hibs and hearts who they give most of the stadium to.

Post Edited (Sun 22 May 15:37)
[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: How Big Are We?
Topic Originator: DAFC_Mike  
Date:   Sun 22 May 16:40

Depends how you want to gauge it.

The population base is only bettered by the major cities and Paisley.

The only non-Premiership teams whose attendance as % of population is greater than the smallest city (Stirling) surpasses Dunfermline`s 6.18% is Kilmarnock 9.93%.

Every major city team has won the Premiership with the exception of Partick Thistle and Queen`s Park.

The only other team to win post World War II is Kilmarnock thus played in the Champions League with Aberdeen, Celtic, Dundee, Dundee United, Heart of Midlothian, Hibernian and Rangers. Motherwell won post WWI and are the only other side to play in a Champions League qualifier.

Only Aberdeen, Celtic, Dundee United, Hearts, Hibernian and Rangers played more games in Europe than Dunfermline.

DAFC`s highest league finish was third in 1969, the teams to match that since then are St Mirren (1980), Livingston (2002), St Johnstone (2013).

Since an non-Old Firm team won the league Aberdeen (1985) these are the teams to do win both cups at least once:

Aberdeen, Hibernian, Kilmarnock, St Johnstone, St Mirren.

These are the teams to win a Scottish Cup: Dundee United, Heart of Midlothian, Inverness Caledonian Thistle, Motherwell.

These are the teams to win a League Cup: Livingston, Raith Rovers, Ross County.

Of teams that have not won a major cup in the last 37 years, no team has won the Championship more than Dunfermline (3).

So Dunfermline are certainly below Aberdeen, Celtic, Dundee, Dundee United, Hearts, Hibernian, Kilmarnock, Motherwell and Rangers.

St Johnstone and St Mirren will perhaps make the case that the strides they have made in the last 40 years put them in the conversation with Dunfermline as the 10th "biggest" club in Scotland.

[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: How Big Are We?
Topic Originator: veteraneastender  
Date:   Sun 22 May 17:34

Somebody correct me if wrong - the club’s highest and best league position was 1964-65, not 1969.

We haven’t won a major honour for 54 years, 3 Championship titles is hardly evidence to suggest anything other than modest success at that level.

Post Edited (Sun 22 May 17:41)
[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
-
 Re: How Big Are We?
Topic Originator: parsmad68  
Date:   Sun 22 May 17:46

I don’t care as long as we play attractive passionate football no matter what league we are in. The last few seasons have been painful.
[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: How Big Are We?
Topic Originator: desparado  
Date:   Sun 22 May 18:45

The question should really be “ How wee are we ? “

And to be honest folks, like it or not, we are just a wee team…..



Post Edited (Sun 22 May 18:45)
[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: How Big Are We?
Topic Originator: elvis_lives  
Date:   Sun 22 May 19:15

We are massive.
[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: How Big Are We?
Topic Originator: cfad  
Date:   Sun 22 May 19:29

Quote:

elvis_lives, Sun 22 May 19:15

We are massive.


massively fecked!
[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: How Big Are We?
Topic Originator: Par  
Date:   Sun 22 May 21:14

It`s not the size that matters it`s what you do with it, as Dick has showed us this season.

[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: How Big Are We?
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Sun 22 May 22:10

Ref: veteraneastender
Sun 22 May 17:34



Pretty sure we were third twice in the sixties. We almost won it in `65. I think it was `69 we were third again. Fourth? in `68, behind Hibs, C & R.

I just checked. In 68/69, of 34 league matches in the season, we won 19, drew 7, lost only 8. That`d be 64 points these days. Talk about `we never had it so good.` I recall always expecting us to win at EEP, even quite possibly against the OF.

Post Edited (Sun 22 May 22:33)
[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: How Big Are We?
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Sun 22 May 22:13

Ref: elvis_lives like
Date: Sun 22 May 19:15



Apparently we`re a sleeping giant. Or should that be comatose !



Post Edited (Sun 22 May 23:19)
[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: How Big Are We?
Topic Originator: Parsfangaz  
Date:   Sun 22 May 22:22

Quote:

PARrot, Sun 22 May 12:57

Some of us were spoiled in the 60`s another group became accustomed to cup finals in the 90`s, which ultimately led to our demise.

Other than that we have been a bang average team for 100 years.

Much of that time has actually been spent in lower leagues.

So why do so many of us think we are a great attraction for anything other than an average manager.
We have a bigger fan base than teams around us and a bit more cash, but not so much more that it will make a huge difference.
I don`t see a quick return to the top level on the horizon. It seems a bit further away to me.
Its gonny take a lot of patience building from scratch.
Then again we might just make the right appointment and get a squad that gel. Who knows?
Fitba is indeed a funny old game.


yawn
[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: How Big Are We?
Topic Originator: PARrot  
Date:   Sun 22 May 23:53

Sorry for boring you Gaz. Seems like some folk are enjoying the conversation though.
Fitba forums are funny old places..

[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: How Big Are We?
Topic Originator: DNCH  
Date:   Mon 23 May 06:59

I think any Pars fan (within reason) realizes that we’re a club on the slide and have been since 2005. Speaking from a personal point of view, I’ve struggled to feel invested in any manager since Jimmy Calderwood left. McIntyre steered us through a wonderful promotion, playing brilliant football - but that also felt temporary. Every manager since has been papering obvious cracks within our club.

The outgoing chairman did an excellent job (which should be recognized) in stabilizing our finances and status but his lack of qualifications running a football club have been evident to all for a number of years. I’m comfortable saying that without needing to slight his character. He’s clearly a good man and a Par.

To try and claw back to the question which is “How big are we?”, I’d say the question is the problem rather than the answer. Big does not equal success (St. Johnstone, ICT, Ross County?), it doesn’t mean longevity (Rangers) and it does not guarantee success. The question shouldn’t be how big are we, it ought to be, who do we want to be? Once we’re able to establish that as an identity, we can set goals as a club and work towards them. Until then, we’re just another club floundering whilst assuming we’re owed a level of status.

Apologies for the length of my post.



Post Edited (Mon 23 May 07:01)
[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: How Big Are We?
Topic Originator: PARrot  
Date:   Mon 23 May 09:26

Quote:

DNCH, Mon 23 May 06:59

I think any Pars fan (within reason) realizes that we’re a club on the slide and have been since 2005. Speaking from a personal point of view, I’ve struggled to feel invested in any manager since Jimmy Calderwood left. McIntyre steered us through a wonderful promotion, playing brilliant football - but that also felt temporary. Every manager since has been papering obvious cracks within our club.

The outgoing chairman did an excellent job (which should be recognized) in stabilizing our finances and status but his lack of qualifications running a football club have been evident to all for a number of years. I’m comfortable saying that without needing to slight his character. He’s clearly a good man and a Par.

To try and claw back to the question which is “How big are we?”, I’d say the question is the problem rather than the answer. Big does not equal success (St. Johnstone, ICT, Ross County?), it doesn’t mean longevity (Rangers) and it does not guarantee success. The question shouldn’t be how big are we, it ought to be, who do we want to be? Once we’re able to establish that as an identity, we can set goals as a club and work towards them. Until then, we’re just another club floundering whilst assuming we’re owed a level of status.

Apologies for the length of my post.



Why apologise? It was an excellent post.
I think consolidation in the top division, callenging for top 6 is a realistic long term goal.
I think the new owners will deliver that over 7 to 9 years.
Hopefully it kicks off with getting the next management team right.

[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: How Big Are We?
Topic Originator: wee eck  
Date:   Mon 23 May 09:44

How do you get qualifications for running a football club other than by doing the job? Masterton and Yorkston didn`t have any more relevant qualifications than Ross McArthur but they did have access to a big pot of cash.

ETA- Going forward maybe the appointment of a CEO with previous experience with football clubs will help.



Post Edited (Mon 23 May 09:50)
[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: How Big Are We?
Topic Originator: desparado  
Date:   Mon 23 May 10:44

Topic Originator: Par
Date: Sun 22 May 21:14

It`s not the size that matters it`s what you do with it, as Dick has showed us this season. <

When it comes to Dicks the debate will rumble on whether size really matters..........................

[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: How Big Are We?
Topic Originator: JimDAFC  
Date:   Mon 23 May 11:50

I am with you on this parsmad68, I want to go to the football and be entertained regardless of which league we are in, and scoring goals is the name of the game not taking 5 to 15 passes just to keep possession in our own half. That style of football will quickly dissolve your support base. So whoever we get as manager I hope he has got an attacking minded philosophy.

[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: How Big Are We?
Topic Originator: alwaysaPar  
Date:   Mon 23 May 12:09

We are just a football club......
.....end of.
[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: How Big Are We?
Topic Originator: bigdonnie  
Date:   Mon 23 May 12:13

we were 3rd in 1969 but in 1965 we would have won league hadnt been for sir alex ferguson miss against st johnstone had better goal average than killie or hearts then lost cup to billy mcneills late goal and we beat bank of england team everton in 1962 and wba away in 1969 first team to beat them at hawthorns for nearly 2years so pars were great in those days so sad to see us now

donald mcneil
[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: How Big Are We?
Topic Originator: Bigfoot  
Date:   Mon 23 May 12:58

I think of it this way - based on the collection of silverware over the past century.

Below is my reasoning for those that want a lunchtime nap, but here is the summary.

The league: will always be won by Rangers or Celtic - so team wanting silverware have to chase te cups.

Both the Scottish and League Cups have a 29% return. Going by size of support, the big diddies Hearts, Hibs, Aberdeen and Dundee Utd will invariably pick up half of these - leaving about 1 in 7 chance on each cup. Assuming this is given over to the 16 medium diddy (ie the remaining 6 SPL, and 10 First Division) the chance of winning silverware is around 1:14.

Appreciate teh stats are somewhat rounded and faulted, but that is where we are in my mind.

THE BORING BIT
I`ve taken 1900 as the benchmark - purely for simple arithmetic and that is when the leagues were forming into something more akin to what we know today. You could argue about the starting point - but really it is a mute point.

I`ve alos taken 1998 as a baseline for modern day football as that was when the SPL was first employed adn teh stranglehold really began. So here is a very brief summary.

The winner of the top League (in whatever format) has been either Rangers or Celtic. Only 13 titles have gone to a team out with the Old Firm. Assuming 10 years for WW1 and WW2 giving a non-Old Firm ration of 13/112 = 12%

However, since 1998 (the birth of the SPL) no club outside the Old Firm has won it. In fact you need to go back to 1985 for a different winner. So Old Firm ration is 0%.

The winner of the Scottish Cup has been either Rangers or Celtic. Only 41 cup wins have gone to a team out with the Old Firm. Assuming 10 years for WW1 and WW2 giving a non-Old Firm ration of 41/112 = 37%

Since 1998, the Scottish cup has seen a better return with 7 non Old Firm winners = 29%

The winner of the Scottish League Cup (which apparently started in 1947). The winner of the Scottish Cup has been either Rangers or Celtic. On 29 have won giving a non-Old Firm ration of 29/75 = 39%

Since 1998, the Scottish League Cup has seen a same return as the Scottish Cup with 7 non Old Firm winners = 29%

The league is almost invariably won by Rangers or Celtic

Jesus saves, but Kirk nets rebound
[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: How Big Are We?
Topic Originator: veteraneastender  
Date:   Mon 23 May 17:28

Quote:

bigdonnie, Mon 23 May 12:13

we were 3rd in 1969 but in 1965 we would have won league hadnt been for sir alex ferguson miss against st johnstone had better goal average than killie or hearts then lost cup to billy mcneills late goal and we beat bank of england team everton in 1962 and wba away in 1969 first team to beat them at hawthorns for nearly 2years so pars were great in those days so sad to see us now


Hearts would have won the league if they’d defeated or drawn with Killie on the last day of 64/65, regardless of the Pars having beaten St.Johnstone the previous Saturday.
[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: How Big Are We?
Topic Originator: GG Riva  
Date:   Mon 23 May 18:06

Quote:

veteraneastender, Mon

Hearts would have won the league if they’d defeated or drawn with Killie on the last day of 64/65, regardless of the Pars having beaten St.Johnstone the previous Saturday.


True, but they didn`t, VEE. Killie won 2-0 to finish above Hearts, as you know. If the Pars had beaten St Johnstone, Killie would still have been motivated to win at Tynecastle in the hope that the Pars wouldn`t beat Celtic in their last game the following midweek. In the event the Pars won a nothing at stake game 5-1.

Would they not have won it if the title was up for grabs?



Not your average Sunday League player.
[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: How Big Are We?
Topic Originator: veteraneastender  
Date:   Mon 23 May 22:02

The title was there for Hearts to take GG.
[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: How Big Are We?
Topic Originator: da_no_1  
Date:   Mon 23 May 23:02

Even in the 60s VEE was p1ssing on folks chips

"Some days will stay a 1000 years, some pass like the flash of a spark"

Post Edited (Mon 23 May 23:02)
[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: How Big Are We?
Topic Originator: Rigger Al  
Date:   Mon 23 May 23:23

We are a massive wee club :)
[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: How Big Are We?
Topic Originator: OzPar  
Date:   Tue 24 May 00:04

I was a newly minted Pars fan when we won the cup in `65. I always felt that 5-1 thrashing of Celtic midweek left the slight taste of soor plooms in the mouth, given the disappointment of the cup final, where we had looked the more composed team for the most part.

Oddly enough, as fate would have it, we were to meet Celtic midweek after we picked up the cup in `68. I would have preferred us to have won THAT game 5-1...

:)

[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: How Big Are We?
Topic Originator: GG Riva  
Date:   Tue 24 May 06:58

"The title was there for Hearts to take GG."

There`s no disputing that, VEE, but they blew it and Killie prospered from it. I`m saying if the Pars had one more point in the bag before the Hearts v Killie decider on the same day as the cup final, Killie would still have played to win by 2 goals and hope that the Pars wouldn`t win their final league game which was postponed to the following midweek.

I would contend that losing 1-7 at home to Dundee arguably did more damage to their title aspirations than that last game defeat but Dundee, who finished 6th, also won 4-1 at Rugby Park - made our 3-3 home draw with them look quite decent. :-)



Not your average Sunday League player.
[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: How Big Are We?
Topic Originator: veteraneastender  
Date:   Tue 24 May 09:13

Quote:

da_no_1, Mon 23 May 23:02

Even in the 60s VEE was p1ssing on folks chips


I never was in a casino at that age.
[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: How Big Are We?
Topic Originator: LochgellyAlbert  
Date:   Tue 24 May 09:13

Quote:

OzPar, Tue 24 May 00:04

I was a newly minted Pars fan when we won the cup in `65. I always felt that 5-1 thrashing of Celtic midweek left the slight taste of soor plooms in the mouth, given the disappointment of the cup final, where we had looked the more composed team for the most part.

Oddly enough, as fate would have it, we were to meet Celtic midweek after we picked up the cup in `68. I would have preferred us to have won THAT game 5-1...

:)


We lost the final in `65 Oz, was heartbroken that day!💔
[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: How Big Are We?
Topic Originator: Muppet Par  
Date:   Tue 24 May 11:29

We’re a damn sight bigger and better than league 1 that’s for sure. The terrible decisions from the previous chairman has cost us however. Competing top half of championship is where we should be. With the odd promotion thrown in. I don’t think that’s unreasonable.

[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: How Big Are We?
Topic Originator: alwaysaPar  
Date:   Tue 24 May 12:33

Quote:

Muppet Par, Tue 24 May 11:29

We’re a damn sight bigger and better than league 1 that’s for sure. The terrible decisions from the previous chairman has cost us however. Competing top half of championship is where we should be. With the odd promotion thrown in. I don’t think that’s unreasonable.


Evidently we`re not......
[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: How Big Are We?
Topic Originator: da_no_1  
Date:   Tue 24 May 12:58

Quote:

veteraneastender, Tue 24 May 09:13

Quote:

da_no_1, Mon 23 May 23:02

Even in the 60s VEE was p1ssing on folks chips


I never was in a casino at that age.


😁👏😁👏

"Some days will stay a 1000 years, some pass like the flash of a spark"
[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: How Big Are We?
Topic Originator: Muppet Par  
Date:   Tue 24 May 13:46

We’re not in the best 22 clubs in the country because of how useless previous board members were but we’re most certainly in the biggest 22.

[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Re: How Big Are We?
Topic Originator: DNCH  
Date:   Wed 25 May 05:12

Wee_eck - sorry, didn’t mean to ignore your reply. I’m unsure how it is I reply and quote someone’s response? I’m relatively new to the forum. You make a good point - how do you become experienced in that job without doing the job? I probably don’t have a credible retort to that other than perhaps the board, or new investors were asleep to the fact that there was a regression happening masked by a playoff place in the 20/21 season or even prior to that when we let Johnson go with no clear idea on what to do next? Again, pure speculation.

Bigfoot - loved the math and thought behind your post. I think it’s no secret that Rangers & Celtic dominate the country. We saw when Rangers went bust that Aberdeen were the closest challengers and it wasn’t really even close. It was budget but it was also ambition, structure and priorities. I think McInness took Aberdeen to 5 cup finals and won one of them. The other 4 were Scottish Cups and based on your math they should’ve won at least one of them. Still, great post. Thanks for sharing.

[IP address logged]
Report Abuse   Reply To This Message
 Top of Board  |  Forum List  |  Threaded View   Forum Rules  |  Newer Topic  |  Older Topic  |  end 


Rows: 0
 Forum List  |  Need a Login? Register Here 
 User Login
 User Name:
 Password:
 Remember my login:
   
 Forgot Your Password?
Enter your email address or user name below and a new password will be sent to the email address associated with your profile.
Security : type 'pars' in the box:
email:
© 2021-- DAFC.net