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 VAR
Topic Originator: wee eck  
Date:   Sun 4 Sep 14:48

Breaking news :-

The Premier League is to review the controversial VAR decisions at Chelsea and Newcastle yesterday with referees` body PGMOL as a matter of priority. The move comes after decisions that denied Newcastle United and West Ham goals against Crystal Palace and Chelsea, respectively. Both teams thought they had scored, with the goals confirmed by the on-pitch referee. In each instance, the goals were disallowed after VAR.

Both decisions have been heavily criticised, with many arguing that VAR`s role is not to get involved to reverse debatable calls that had already been made. World Cup referee Michael Oliver also ignored the advice of VAR in a game between Nottingham Forest and Bournemouth at the City Ground, despite being asked to review a penalty decision on the pitchside monitor. Instead, Oliver opted to stick with his initial call and award Forest the spot-kick.

More to follow.

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 Re: VAR
Topic Originator: LiviPar  
Date:   Sun 4 Sep 15:18

These decisions were terrible and quite right this is being reviewed. There is no consistency atall when there should be no reason atall to get then wrong. This is not a VAR issue, its the officials running it.
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 Re: VAR
Topic Originator: dafc  
Date:   Sun 4 Sep 15:59

Not seen Newcastle. But Chelsea West Ham decision was disgraceful, referee ultimately has to take blame, he was asked to review and should have stuck with original decision and has cost West Ham a draw.

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 Re: VAR
Topic Originator: veteraneastender  
Date:   Sun 4 Sep 16:09

"Both decisions have been heavily criticised, with many arguing that VAR`s role is not to get involved to reverse debatable calls that had already been made."

I would have thought that the whole point of VAR was to get decisions correct ?

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 Re: VAR
Topic Originator: Livingston Par  
Date:   Sun 4 Sep 16:45

Anyone involved in the West Ham decision shouldn`t be allowed near football again.....ever. Shocking decision.

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 Re: VAR
Topic Originator: 68guns  
Date:   Sun 4 Sep 16:47

The problem with VAR is it still comes down to a personal opinion. Goal line technology is a definitive yes or no based on that technology (except Sheff united).
Saying that if you have not made a clear and obvious mistake in awarding a goal why would you reverse that.

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 Re: VAR
Topic Originator: GG Riva  
Date:   Sun 4 Sep 16:48

Quote:

veteraneastender, Sun 4 Sep 16:09

"Both decisions have been heavily criticised, with many arguing that VAR`s role is not to get involved to reverse debatable calls that had already been made."

I would have thought that the whole point of VAR was to get decisions correct ?


I agree with you VEE, but I think the statement in the OP (not wee eck) is poorly worded. It should read" VAR should only get involved to reverse clear and obvious errors."



Not your average Sunday League player.
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 Re: VAR
Topic Originator: TAFKA_Super_Petrie  
Date:   Sun 4 Sep 16:51

Should be totally impartial folks in the VAR booth. Either long retired or foreign refs with no recent ties to who is on the pitch.

The blatant shirt pull in the Leeds game yesterday that didn`t even get a second look was farcical.

---------------------------------------------------------------


"People always talk about Ronaldinho and magic, but I didn't see him today. I saw Henrik Larsson; that's where the magic was."
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 Re: VAR
Topic Originator: JnrB  
Date:   Sun 4 Sep 17:26

The 2 refs in the games are equally to blame. Unbelievable that professional referees can go to the monitor and come to those conclusions. Fair play to Michael Oliver in the forrest v Bournemouth game where he stuck with his on field decision. The other clowns need looked at.
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 Re: VAR
Topic Originator: Parfect69  
Date:   Sun 4 Sep 17:34

And so it continues today. Bin it. Imagine the outrage when the bigot brothers are involved
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 Re: VAR
Topic Originator: 1985Par  
Date:   Sun 4 Sep 18:28

Michael Oliver being praised for sticking by his decision. Doesn’t mean to say it wasn’t a pathetic decision. The ball is was booted at the defender from all of 6/7 yards. Yes it hits his hand but what he’s supposed to do about it god only knows. Perhaps his hand wasn’t in the “ natural position”, clasped behind his back.

Also baffling how VAR didn’t intervene in the Leeds game where Leeds looked to have a very good penalty shout.



Post Edited (Sun 04 Sep 18:39)
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 Re: VAR
Topic Originator: wee eck  
Date:   Sun 4 Sep 18:34

Apparently PGMOL have conceded that the decisions at Chelsea and Newcastle were wrong.

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 Re: VAR
Topic Originator: Fethiyespar  
Date:   Sun 4 Sep 19:15

Bin VAR and get back to the referees decision is final.
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 Re: VAR
Topic Originator: JTH123  
Date:   Sun 4 Sep 19:23

Surely the definition of clear and obvious is difficult in itself.
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 Re: VAR
Topic Originator: londonparsfan  
Date:   Sun 4 Sep 19:26

Quote:

Parfect69, Sun 4 Sept 17:34

And so it continues today. Bin it. Imagine the outrage when the bigot brothers are involved


It`s getting way more right than it gets wrong. A couple of dodgy decisions doesn`t change that. It`s gone for months without any real controversy when you tag on the end of last seasons games.
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 Re: VAR
Topic Originator: NikNakPar  
Date:   Sun 4 Sep 19:32

The decision today was correct IMO. Foul all day long.
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 Re: VAR
Topic Originator: Parfect69  
Date:   Sun 4 Sep 19:34

Quote:

londonparsfan, Sun 04 Sep 19:26

Quote:

Parfect69, Sun 4 Sept 17:34

And so it continues today. Bin it. Imagine the outrage when the bigot brothers are involved


It`s getting way more right than it gets wrong. A couple of dodgy decisions doesn`t change that. It`s gone for months without any real controversy when you tag on the end of last seasons games.


Like I say I would like to get rid. Leave it to the on pitch ref. He makes mistakes, however so do the folks at Stokley Park. The only thing it adds is the uncertainty after every goal. Sometimes waiting 5 minutes for a decision. Irritating at best.
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 Re: VAR
Topic Originator: londonparsfan  
Date:   Sun 4 Sep 19:35

The refs make far more mistakes than VAR does. There`s no point going back to the dark ages.
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 Re: VAR
Topic Originator: Parfect69  
Date:   Sun 4 Sep 19:35

Quote:

NikNakPar, Sun 04 Sep 19:32

The decision today was correct IMO. Foul all day long.


Ok, imo. Never a foul, but that’s football and why we love it.
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 Re: VAR
Topic Originator: Parfect69  
Date:   Sun 4 Sep 19:36

Quote:

londonparsfan, Sun 04 Sep 19:35

The refs make far more mistakes than VAR does. There`s no point going back to the dark ages.


The dark ages?? 2-3 years ago
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 Re: VAR
Topic Originator: londonparsfan  
Date:   Sun 4 Sep 19:53

Which was how the game had been offciated for how long? The technology exists and the TV companies were effectively able to provide the same replays anyway so it`s daft to have the capability and not use it.

It`s a significant step forward and will continue to get better as its tweaked although it can never be 100%.
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 Re: VAR
Topic Originator: PARrot  
Date:   Sun 4 Sep 20:48

Can someone explain to me why VAR is being blamed?
Surely it isn`t the video thats in error, but the official reviewing the video.
How can you say, "It`s time to get back to the refs decision being final"?
Surely his decision is still final.

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 Re: VAR
Topic Originator: Paralex  
Date:   Sun 4 Sep 22:05

Exactly, VAR is a tool to be used in giving the officials a clearer opportunity to scrutinise key incidents in the game. Generally it has been an excellent way to correct offside decisions and rule out corruption or bias by the match officials. The problem comes when it starts to be nitpicking and for instance, earlier tackles that the referee considers not to be a foul, which result in a move that eventually leads to a goal, are being revisited and referees are changing their minds. The rule should be that if the referee considers tackles leading up to an attacking move, not to be a foul at the time, they are not allowed to change their mind.

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 Re: VAR
Topic Originator: 1985Par  
Date:   Sun 4 Sep 22:40

The offside rule needs to change with VAR. A player will never be “ level “ again. The computers can establish if one player is a millimetre/ micron/ atom infront of the other. Would rather the ref was shown a still- if he can’t say for certain that the player is offside then let the goal stand. The attacker should get the benefit of any doubt and you’d still be able to identify the glaringly obvious errors.

I’m not against VAR but the dummies that use it need to go. Also slow motion distorts everything. Real time or not at all.

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 Re: VAR
Topic Originator: Bandy  
Date:   Mon 5 Sep 09:32

It`s not VAR. It`s just really poor refereeing.

The Newcastle one is odd. Before VAR I would have expected it to be ruled out for a foul on the keeper. Now I would have expected it to be initially chalked off and then awarded AFTER the review when the video review showed Willock was pushed by a Palace defender into the keeper. For the goal to be allowed and then chalked off for a foul is incomprehensible.

The West Ham one equally so. Gillet has previous there - he chalked off an Arsenal winner for a non-existent foul by Calum Chambers - it felt like he got involved because he was bored.

The one I REALLY don`t get was the Coutinho one - that was whole levels of incompetence with multiple errors.

1. Coutinho was behind the last defender when the ball was played.
2. The `pass` to him was backwards - I though the ball needed to be played forwards for an offside (correct me if I`m wrong there)
3. The guidance is for the attacking phase to finish before raising the flag.

To get all 3 of those things wrong in a single `decision` is exceptionally poor.

As for the one yesterday - put it this way. If that were a penalty review with the initial decision being `no penalty` would it have been overturned. Probably not (although we have to the fact that this is Man Utd at Old Trafford into account ;). It was NOT a clear and obvious error, so VAR shouldn`t have got involved.

It`s an absolute shambles, but it`s not the fault of VAR. The Technology is absolutely fine, and it`s worked in other countries and in international tournaments. It`s the competence (or corruption!) of the officials that`s ruining the reputation of the tech.

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 Re: VAR
Topic Originator: cammypar 1995  
Date:   Mon 5 Sep 10:56

VAR technology isn`t the issue. It works in every other league in the world as it`s used correctly. The Scottish game has a great opportunity to learn from the mistakes made south of the border and make it a success.

c'mon the pars
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 Re: VAR
Topic Originator: Andrew283  
Date:   Mon 5 Sep 12:11

Quote:

PARrot, Sun 4 Sep 20:48

Can someone explain to me why VAR is being blamed?
Surely it isn`t the video thats in error, but the official reviewing the video.
How can you say, "It`s time to get back to the refs decision being final"?
Surely his decision is still final.


It`s completely brain-dead logic. Oh, the refs in charge of watching the replays are crap, therefore we must scrap the whole system.

Need I remind anyone on here of the Bobo Balde handball incident?
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 Re: VAR
Topic Originator: KilsythPar  
Date:   Mon 5 Sep 12:20

Bandy,
The ball does not need to be passed forward for a player to be offside. It is simply based on the position of the offside player.

C`mon
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 Re: VAR
Topic Originator: Bandy  
Date:   Mon 5 Sep 12:26

Thanks Kilsyth. Just the two things wrong with the Coutinho decision then. Still abysmal.

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 Re: VAR
Topic Originator: wee eck  
Date:   Mon 5 Sep 12:42

Surely that`s not right!

`A player is in an offside position if:
any part of the head, body or feet is in the opponents’ half (excluding the halfway line) and
any part of the head, body or feet is nearer to the opponents’ goal line than both the ball and the second-last opponent`

If the ball is passed backwards the receiving player can`t be nearer the goal-line than the ball.

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 Re: VAR
Topic Originator: KilsythPar  
Date:   Mon 5 Sep 12:53

It`s nothing to do with the position of the ball. It is the position of the player in relation to the defenders when the ball is played, either forwards or backwards.

C`mon
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 Re: VAR
Topic Originator: wee eck  
Date:   Mon 5 Sep 13:00

Are you saying if a player scores a goal from a ball cut back from the goal-line and there are no defenders between him and the goal-line then he is offside?

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 Re: VAR
Topic Originator: KilsythPar  
Date:   Mon 5 Sep 13:33

No. That is one of the exceptions to the rule.
If the player is behind the ball when it is played, he or she cannot be offside.

C`mon
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 Re: VAR
Topic Originator: Socks  
Date:   Mon 5 Sep 13:34

Not correct to say it`s nothing to do with the position of the ball - its position is very much relevant, as per the extract from Law 11 quoted above. A goal scored after the ball is cut back will stand, even if no defender nearby, assumng the player scoring from the cut-back was not ahead of the ball when it was played (unlikely).

The confusion maybe comes because it is sometimes possible to be offside from a pass played backwards. If the ball is played backwards and a player who was ahead of it when it was played is further forward than the ball, but runs back to play it, that should be given offside. The only time I`ve seen this is from a short corner - corner taker plays it short to a team-mate who stops the ball and rolls it slightly backwards, maybe 5-10 yards form the goal-line. Corner taker then runs onto it and crosses - he`s offside because he was standing at the corner flag ahead of every other player when the ball was touched backwards. He`s offside because he`s ahead of both the ball and the second-last defender when the ball is played, even though the pass goes backwards.

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 Re: VAR
Topic Originator: Bandy  
Date:   Mon 5 Sep 13:55

which is what happened with Coutinho, he was ahead of the ball, but still received it after the ball was played backwards, so had been been ahead of the defender he would have been offside.

but he wasn`t ahead of the defender, so he wasn`t, and, irrespective, it was close, so the attack should have been allowed to complete before the Lino raised his flag. Stinking reffing.

Hard not to notice that the majority of the `stinking` decisions went in favour of either the `big` club (Chelsea, Man City) or where clubs were of `equal` standing the `home` club (Brentford, Man Utd). Only the Newcastle one is an exception to the rule that home clubs, and big clubs get favourable calls.

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 Re: VAR
Topic Originator: wee eck  
Date:   Mon 5 Sep 13:57

Thanks for clarifying that, Socks. KilsythPar seems to be contradicting himself in his posts at 12:53 and 13:33. There have been lots of changes to the offside law in recent years but the basic exemption for being `behind the ball` has remained intact.

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 Re: VAR
Topic Originator: veteraneastender  
Date:   Mon 5 Sep 18:11

Quote:

KilsythPar, Mon 05 Sep 12:20

Bandy,
The ball does not need to be passed forward for a player to be offside. It is simply based on the position of the offside player.


As corrected, an attacker can’t be offside if the ball is played back from a position nearer the goal line than he is.
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 Re: VAR
Topic Originator: par-91  
Date:   Mon 5 Sep 18:41

Quote:

wee eck, Mon 5 Sep 13:00

Are you saying if a player scores a goal from a ball cut back from the goal-line and there are no defenders between him and the goal-line then he is offside?


You’ve changed his words. That’s not what he said.

You cannot be offside if you are behind the ball when it’s played. However, if you are ahead of the ball, you can be offside - even if it is played backwards. If Coutinho had been in an offside position, he would have been offside when he moved back to the edge of the box to play the ball. He wasn’t though, a defender played him on. But it’s an example of the ball being played backwards and a player that was ahead of the ball getting on the end of the pass.
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 Re: VAR
Topic Originator: Pars Athletic  
Date:   Mon 5 Sep 18:57

In the Huddersfield v Blackpool game yesterday the goal line technology failed. Huddersfield scored a legitimate goal but the officials were unable to see it, they got no signal via thier watch or earpiece to signal it was a goal. This was despite it being tested before the game
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 Re: VAR
Topic Originator: wee eck  
Date:   Mon 5 Sep 19:07

KP said `It has nothing to do with the position of the ball`. I simply pointed out a common situation where it has everything to do with the position of the ball. I thought Socks explained it very well.

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 Re: VAR
Topic Originator: par-91  
Date:   Mon 5 Sep 20:45

Quote:

wee eck, Mon 5 Sep 19:07

KP said `It has nothing to do with the position of the ball`. I simply pointed out a common situation where it has everything to do with the position of the ball. I thought Socks explained it very well.


Apologies. Quoted the wrong post. Meant to be the one that said:

“If the ball is passed backwards the receiving player can`t be nearer the goal-line than the ball.” - I was demonstrating an example where that wasn’t the case.

Regardless, I do agree with the point of the thread. Those in charge of the operation of VAR are not performing to an acceptable standard. Likewise, the actual referee in the West Ham game was incredibly wrong to stop play before the attack came to an end. It’s not that new that play continues, there’s no excuse for the referee not to allow play to continue.

The application of VAR is so inconsistent and seems to be having the opposite impact that it should be. That is absolutely not down to the technology, it’s down to the clowns in charge of it. It’s inexcusable that they haven’t sorted out the use of technology, when it’s been used for so long now. I would also add that this seems to be a bigger issue in England than any other country/competition that uses VAR. Everyone else seems to have adapted much better.
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 Re: VAR
Topic Originator: 1985Par  
Date:   Thu 8 Sep 21:22

Another inexplicable decision in the Man United Sociadad game. Penalty that should have been overturned.

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 Re: VAR
Topic Originator: sadindiefreak  
Date:   Fri 9 Sep 06:16

Quote:

1985Par, Thu 8 Sept 21:22

Another inexplicable decision in the Man United Sociadad game. Penalty that should have been overturned.


Disagree, that`s was a penalty, soft one but was not a clear and obvious error.
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 Re: VAR
Topic Originator: 1985Par  
Date:   Fri 9 Sep 07:46

Ball struck his leg and deflected on to his arm ( elbow). Wouldn’t have seen it in real time but replay showed this clearly to be the case. At a time VAR seems to be actually looking for any infringement it is inexplicable that the ref wasn’t at least asked to go to the monitor.

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