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 PARs?
Topic Originator: istvan kozma  
Date:   Sat 26 Nov 18:50

Does this stand for Plymouth Argyle Reserves? Players brought in from Rosyth dockyard to play for us during the war?

KOZMA


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 Re: PARs?
Topic Originator: jake89  
Date:   Sat 26 Nov 19:01

Plymouth Argyle Rosyth Supporters. But it`s all just rumour. No-one knows where it came from.
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 Re: PARs?
Topic Originator: eastendalloapar  
Date:   Sat 26 Nov 19:02

Plymouth Argyle Rosyth Supporters is what I always thought. It was a connection between the Dockyards.

matt forsyth
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 Re: PARs?
Topic Originator: parsfan  
Date:   Sat 26 Nov 19:25

I don`t know either, but to me that`s putting the cart.

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The universe is ruled by chance and indifference



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 Re: PARs?
Topic Originator: PARrot  
Date:   Sat 26 Nov 21:05

My understanding is the dockyard workers from Plymouth had banners with P A R S on them. If this could be proved it would seal the deal for me. It makes more sense than anything else I have heard.

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 Re: PARs?
Topic Originator: NikNakPar  
Date:   Sat 26 Nov 21:28

I`ve always thought it is quite mental nobody actually 100% knows the answer to this.

There is also the paralytic rumour as well as playing in parallel stripes.

I too think the Plymouth rumour is most likely but who knows.
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 Re: PARs?
Topic Originator: fcda  
Date:   Sat 26 Nov 21:45

I`m with parsfan on this. The Plymouth thing sounds like something made up later to fit. Seems really unlikely.
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 Re: PARs?
Topic Originator: sammer  
Date:   Sat 26 Nov 21:58

Almost certainly rubbish. The Plymouth Argyle Rosyth Supporters (PARS) is the most pathetic explanation I have ever encountered for our nickname.

First of all, to support a team you normally chant its name. This predates banners or newspapers reports. So why on earth were Dunfermline fans chanting a nickname derived from the name of a team 600 miles south that few of them had ever heard of? It`s beyond belief.

The PARS banner was first sighted in the early 1950s, long after the nickname was established. It has all the hallmarks of a group of fans based in Rosyth Dockyard constructing a slogan to match a nickname which already existed: The Pars. Some smart guy worked out the wording and he deserves our respect. But the awkwardness of the wording is obvious to any speaker of the language. It was an artefact. The Pars nickname goes back a long way as my grandfather knew it back in the 1920s.

sammer
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 Re: PARs?
Topic Originator: parsfan  
Date:   Sat 26 Nov 21:59

Hmmm, what happened to my "before the horse"? Doesn`t matter, I`m sure you got my drift.

I don`t doubt a banner might have existed. To me it just seems contrived to fit in with the existing nickname.

The idea of adopting a nickname from an acronym from banner from a small subset of fans has always struck me as a bit far fetched.

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 Re: PARs?
Topic Originator: jake89  
Date:   Sat 26 Nov 22:29

Perhaps related to golf in that we were "average"?

Also the PARallel stripes suggestion.

And finally, PARaletic.

Are there any other Scottish clubs who have no clue where their nickname came from?

Whilst we`re at it, why is the Divit called the Divit?
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 Re: PARs?
Topic Originator: NikNakPar  
Date:   Sat 26 Nov 22:31

Quote:

jake89, Sat 26 Nov 22:29

Perhaps related to golf in that we were "average"?

Also the PARallel stripes suggestion.

And finally, PARaletic.

Are there any other Scottish clubs who have no clue where their nickname came from?

Whilst we`re at it, why is the Divit called the Divit?


Pretty sure the name divit came from the fact the town is basically in a big divit.
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 Re: PARs?
Topic Originator: brian  
Date:   Sat 26 Nov 22:34

There`s a story on the website about the name

I`ll look for the link

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 Re: PARs?
Topic Originator: veteraneastender  
Date:   Sat 26 Nov 22:50

Since when was Dunfermline 600 miles from Portsmouth ?
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 Re: PARs?
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Sat 26 Nov 22:57

Where did you get the 1950s idea from Sammer? Can you give a source reference please?

Because, here is a quote from DAFC:

`In the early part of the twentieth century when Rosyth Naval Base was opened, sailors from the south came to watch Dunfermline and unfurled a banner reading: Plymouth Argyle (Rosyth) Supporters.` (1)

`In the early part of the twentieth century`

and `when Rosyth Naval base was opened` do not suggest the 1950s to me.

I`m pretty sure the Naval Base was opened in or about 1910, (according to my gran, whose dad worked there then) which would make it quite possible your grandad saw the banner in the 1920s.

Seems a good fit to me (unlike parallel bars, or anything to do wi` golf, or being average or pi**ed etc.)

Maybe you`re not aware of the close connection between Dunfermline and folk from down south because of the Dockyard? My dad worked at Rosyth and Plymouth Dockyards. Loads of English folk came to train at R.N.A.T.E. (Royal Naval Artificers Training Establishment) at Rosyth Dockyard. (2) Given that the training was about four years and `Tiffies` came to Dunfermline on their time off, I don`t think it`s at all odd or unlikely that some may have been Plymouth Argyle fans who turned up at EEP with such a banner.


(1) https://dafc.co.uk/story.php?t=Origins_of_Club_Nickname&ID=8875

(2) source: my family



Post Edited (Sun 27 Nov 18:20)
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 Re: PARs?
Topic Originator: brian  
Date:   Sat 26 Nov 23:09

https://dafc.net/story.php?ID=273

this is a DAFC.net story from over 20 years ago .net

happy to update the info if more is forthcoming ;o)

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 Re: PARs?
Topic Originator: Stanza  
Date:   Sat 26 Nov 23:10

Topic Originator: veteraneastender like
Date: Sat 26 Nov 22:50

Since when was Dunfermline 600 miles from Portsmouth ?


It`s not.

But according to Google maps it is 485 miles from PLYMOUTH - and probably a good bit further if you have to travel by Royal Navy minesweeper ... :}

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 Re: PARs?
Topic Originator: Stanza  
Date:   Sat 26 Nov 23:23

John Hunter`s book "Dunfermline Athletic 1885-1985" gives the following explanation on pp18-19.

"In June 1912 the Second Division was extended from 12 to 14 clubs and Dunfermline, along with St Johnstone, were admitted. ............
.............. Thus the new season of 1912-13 saw Senior League football at East End Park for the first time ever. The committee kitted their team out in colours which have remained, almost without interruption, ever since: black and white striped jerseys with black shorts. Significantly, it is at this time that the local newspapers start referring to Dunfermline Athletic as The Pars, a nickname which has stuck to them over the years. What the nickname alluded to was the fact that after almost 30 years of playing football the local team, having left the minor leagues behind and having now gained access to the top drawer of Scottish football, were equal to, or on PAR with, the best in the land."

It`s still just a theory, though!

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 Re: PARs?
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Sat 26 Nov 23:30

From what I`ve found in the last few minutes the RNATE started in 1937.(1)

That would have been one source of Plymouth supporters that could have lived in or near Dunfermline for at least the four years of their training - many might stay longer, and some of them would come to EEP.

If that doesn`t suit, what about the English soldiers and sailors who were billeted hereabouts in the First World War.

I`m just digging this out of what my gran said many years ago, I haven`t googled it yet. She said, during the first world war, there were English soldiers billeted here, from English regiments. That`s a possible source of Plymouth Argyle fans. As for the Dockyard, I wouldn`t be surprised if Engish folk came to work on the construction, and also after it opened, Naval blokes were posted there from Plymouth. Also during the First World War, there would be heaps of ships coming in from the North sea to Rosyth, including plenty of English sailors.



(1) HMS Caledonia - Secret Scotland

Post Edited (Sun 27 Nov 18:21)
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 Re: PARs?
Topic Originator: sammer  
Date:   Sun 27 Nov 00:57

I was aware that Rosyth Dockyard was established from the first decade last century and of course came across several people whose origins were from Plymouth at school in Dunfermline. None of them were Pars fans so far as I can recall, but no doubt many over the years who had roots in Plymouth adopted DAFC as their local team and for that we are grateful. I’m sure the reverse was true as well, although there is no record of Plymouth Argyle being known as the DAPAS.

I could just about buy PFP (Pilgrims for Pars) or RDS (Rosyth Dockie Supporters) but to put another football club’s name in your support for a local team is surely unprecedented. John Hunter, who I met and was from Bathgate, did what a decent historian does and offered different theories about the origins. Putting the cart before the horse must apply both to the Rosyth supporters theory and the paralytic one as well.

sammer
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 Re: PARs?
Topic Originator: DulochConvert  
Date:   Sun 27 Nov 01:35

I always preferred the fish explanation

A Parr is a juvenile salmon.

Parr marks are the characteristic vertical black bars found on the sides of juvenile salmonids

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 Re: PARs?
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Sun 27 Nov 02:49

Hi Sammer,

It seems to me you`re not alone in failing to see the thing in context. The context I`ve suggested - of possible English workers at Rosyth Dockyard during construction and afterwards; plus soldiers and sailors from England during the First World War. You have to appreciate that Rosyth was one of only four? Royal Navy Dockyards in the UK, and the only one for the North Sea. Rosyth was very busy and so was Dunfermline.

I don`t think it`s `surely unprecedented` for a group of Plymouth Argyle fans who are stationed at Rosyth to arrive at EEP with their own banner.

You don`t like the idea, but you didn`t have a clue about the scale of the English connection with Rosyth and Dunfermline.

It`s not a case of, as you say, putting "another football club’s name in your support for a local team." A banner that says Plymouth Argyle (Rosyth) Supporters, would be equivalent to Dunfermline Athletic (Plymouth) supporters, not D.A.P.A.S. as you`ve put it. So you`ve overdone that.

Who says they must be Pars fans? They come to see a local game of fitba.` They could well be a small band of exiles in Rosyth, who have formed their own supporters group, made their own banner, and they bring it to EEP. It`s just the kind of thing that folk would do.

I live in England. There`s wee groups of Pars supporters all over the place. There was one where I lived and they used to arrive at the social club of the local football team wearing Pars shirts.

The cart isn`t before the horse because, as I explained, the possible P.A.R.S. banner could well have existed long before 1920. Your claim that the banner was first seen in the 1950s isn`t correct. It appears you`ve read a quote that the nickname originated in the late 50`s, and you`ve mistakenly linked it to the banner. Check this source and you`ll find both points in there, but they`re not connected.(1)

(1) https://dafc.net/history/2000/q7.htm

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 Re: PARs?
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Sun 27 Nov 03:00

Ref: DulochConvert
Sun 27 Nov 01:35

Quote:

I always preferred the fish explanation

A Parr is a juvenile salmon.

Parr marks are the characteristic vertical black bars found on the sides of juvenile salmonids


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Of course! what`s the first thing ye think o` when ye see one o` oor players?





St Mirren, Newcastle, Grimsby and Juventus must be kicking themselves that they didny think o` it first!



Post Edited (Sun 27 Nov 03:03)
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 Re: PARs?
Topic Originator: Par  
Date:   Sun 27 Nov 03:41

Divit was from when the militant people of Inverkeithing threw Divits at Andrew Carnegie as he travelled through the town on the way to Dunfermline. This was in support of the American steelworkers who were in dispute with Carnegie, as a consequence although in the catchment area Inverkeithing does not benefit from any money from the Carnegie trust.

Not much has changed pass through the Divit today and the locals are likely to be rather hostile and unfriendly and throw things at you.



Post Edited (Sun 27 Nov 03:44)
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 Re: PARs?
Topic Originator: brian  
Date:   Sun 27 Nov 08:30

Quote:

(1) https://dafc.net/history/2000/q7.htm


WOW, where did that snippet come from. well hidden on this site, from around the year 2000 !

I notice a whole heap of pages which are not showing. I will need to sort these out

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 Re: PARs?
Topic Originator: sammer  
Date:   Sun 27 Nov 12:06

OAUTP,
I thought that John Hunter had established the Plymouth Argyle Rosyth Supporters banner was spotted in the early 1950s, although that doesn’t mean such banners didn’t exist before then. But the wording seems contrived to fit a term already in existence.

I agree that the ‘Parr’ explanation is the most likely since it is based on the strip. The Hoops, The Diamonds and The Wasps are all nicknames based on the strip as well.

Whatever, even allowing for bias, I think The Pars is one of the greatest nicknames in British football. It has indeed stood the test of time and is recognised far and wide. Anyone with a Scottish tongue, drunk or sober, overjoyed or in despair, can roar out ‘The Pars’ from the back of their throat and feel they have made a contribution to the match.

sammer
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 Re: PARs?
Topic Originator: istvan kozma  
Date:   Sun 27 Nov 12:17

I`m holding on to the my story I got that it stands for Plymouth Argyll Reserves. Dockyard workers from Plymouth who played for Dunfermline during the 1st World War. Hence we are the pars, we are the pars, which was presumably a chant they themselves created. It must be possible to source a copy of the Dunfermline press from during the war to see if any reference is made to this. That`s a task I`ll pencil in for next year....

KOZMA


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 Re: PARs?
Topic Originator: vasco  
Date:   Sun 27 Nov 12:45

With no definitive reason for the the Pars nickname it`s just another reason why it is magical being a supporter of the DAFC.

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 Re: PARs?
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Sun 27 Nov 12:56

Re Sammer

I was just joking about Parrs though. I doubt if that would be one of the first things folk imagine wi` black and white stripes, whereas hoops, diamonds and wasps are pretty obvious. On that basis, our nickname should be the Zebras, or even badgers. Mackerel or Perch would be better known striped fish. How many Pars fans even knew what a PARR was? It isny even spelled the same.

Nevertheless you are on the money when you say it`s one of the greatest nicknames! Aye, there`s more to us than `Celts` or `Gers`. How cr*p would it be if we were `the Dunfs`! We`d have tae have a petition tae change that tae.... `the Pars!`

What does it mean, some ask:

Permit
All
Rousing
Singing!



Post Edited (Sun 27 Nov 18:19)
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 Re: PARs?
Topic Originator: brian  
Date:   Sun 27 Nov 15:59

Have also received this info, would be good for someone to update a new story on the site

The story of "Plymouth Argyle Rosyth Supporters" is only part of the story. The Dockyard workers from Plymouth would meet up and walk from the town out to EEP on match days. Sometimes they`d even walk from Rosyth. In time they made a banner out of sailcloth which read "PARS supporters" referring to their hometown. Locals had asked what PARS meant and they`d replied jokingly that it meant Plymouth Argyle Rosyth Supporters and the name just stuck

. Some of those workers settled around Dunfermline and Rosyth and must have descendants here. After games they`d quite often stop in the Brig, the Old Toll or the Cottage Inn on the way home (some were in digs around Aberdour Rd and Brucefield) and my Great Grandfather and his son would have a "few" pints with them.
The 3 guys from Plymouth I worked with said the connection with Rosyth and Dunfermline was known about in Par for years after the first war.

My Grandad told me the story about "the guys from down south" years ago and I`ve always assumed it was the real one. I thought there was too much coincidence between the two sources, so I`m pretty sure the Plymouth connection is the basis of our nickname.

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 Re: PARs?
Topic Originator: Par  
Date:   Sun 27 Nov 17:18

Never had much time for Plymouth or Devonport dockyard after the decision to move the SSBN work to Devonport by the Tory government based on the fact they had a tory MP, costing thousands of jobs up here. The sight of them burning Scottish flags was very unedifying they based their bid on anti Rosyth anti Scottish, Rosyth based its bid on being the most suitable and having the skilled workforce. It cost millions to make the facilities suitable in Devonport and even now they have difficulties.

Hopefully the Plymouth story has nothing to do with the Pars nickname.

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 Re: PARs?
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Sun 27 Nov 17:44

ref: brian
Date: Sun 27 Nov 15:59


I think you`ve nailed it Brian. Par being a village in Cornwall, near St. Austell.

Can you tell me if I`ve got it correctly:

You`re referring to workers at Rosyth Dockyard, who originally came from Par?

And the nearest big football club to Par is Plymouth Argyle.

It all makes sense to me, except a minor detail: would the banner not read,
`PAR supporters` (i.e. supporters from Par, otherwise `PARS supporters` would mean Par supporters supporters?)

As you have it, our nickname is based on a banner made by Rosyth Dockyard workers who originated from the village of Par in Cornwall. The Plymouth Argyle bit was just a joke, but it maybe had the effect of helping to spread the idea of PARS as a nickname, by folk telling the story and the joke?



Post Edited (Sun 27 Nov 17:45)
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 Re: PARs?
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Sun 27 Nov 17:55

Here`s a nickname idea for a very young Pars boys or girls team:





The White Tigers



Post Edited (Sun 27 Nov 18:16)
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 Re: PARs?
Topic Originator: wee eck  
Date:   Sun 27 Nov 18:38

Has something happened this weekend to trigger this debate? It`s been the subject of speculation for as long as I`ve been a Pars` fan and has never been conclusively resolved.

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 Re: PARs?
Topic Originator: Fethiyespar  
Date:   Sun 27 Nov 18:54

The letters on the Plymouth Argyle club badge are identical to the lettering on the DAFC badge, coincidence?
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 Re: PARs?
Topic Originator: sammer  
Date:   Sun 27 Nov 19:06

I doubt the origin will ever be resolved. Nicknames often come into common usage simply because people like the sound of the word. Maybe it never meant anything.

The problem I have with the small village called Par near Plymouth is that inhabitants of a place don’t usually just add the letter ‘s’ to show they come from there. We call ourselves ‘Fifers’ not ‘Fifes.’ Likewise ‘Plymothians’ (‘Janners’ in local dialect)’Bristolians,’ and ‘Devonians.’

sammer
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 Re: PARs?
Topic Originator: istvan kozma  
Date:   Sun 27 Nov 19:27

It should be possible to resolve the origins. It can`t be lost in the mists of time. If we could find out a bit about our squad from the first world war days I believe this could help to unlock the mystery. As many of our team would have been fighting, those from the dockyard who were exempt from conscription may have taken their place. Some of them may have been from Plymouth. It`s a theory.

From what I can find Dunfermline were not in the top league during the 1st World War and the 2nd tier didn't play a league. But did any matches unofficially take place?

KOZMA




Post Edited (Sun 27 Nov 19:38)
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 Re: PARs?
Topic Originator: neils  
Date:   Sun 27 Nov 19:33

I stick with the paraletic one, was told that as a wee boy, but few others have backed me up ....

I suspect it`s like a lot of our friends nicknames, something fairly random lost in the mists of time, and all the better for that.

We still have the best badge in football!

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 Re: PARs?
Topic Originator: Stanza  
Date:   Sun 27 Nov 19:40

Quote:

istvan kozma, Sun 27 Nov 19:27

It should be possible to resolve the origins. It can`t be lost in the mists of time. If we could find out a bit about our squad from the first world war days I believe this could help to unlock the mystery.


Good luck with that! As I quoted earlier on, the name has been in common use since at least 1912 and nobody has been able to offer definitive proof on its origin, even when they were much nearer in time to the origin than we are.

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 Re: PARs?
Topic Originator: moviescot  
Date:   Sun 27 Nov 19:49

Quote:

Stanza, Sat 26 Nov 23:23

John Hunter`s book "Dunfermline Athletic 1885-1985" gives the following explanation on pp18-19.

"In June 1912 the Second Division was extended from 12 to 14 clubs and Dunfermline, along with St Johnstone, were admitted. ............
.............. Thus the new season of 1912-13 saw Senior League football at East End Park for the first time ever. The committee kitted their team out in colours which have remained, almost without interruption, ever since: black and white striped jerseys with black shorts. Significantly, it is at this time that the local newspapers start referring to Dunfermline Athletic as The Pars, a nickname which has stuck to them over the years. What the nickname alluded to was the fact that after almost 30 years of playing football the local team, having left the minor leagues behind and having now gained access to the top drawer of Scottish football, were equal to, or on PAR with, the best in the land."

It`s still just a theory, though!


John Hunter. My history teacher when I was at school
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 Re: PARs?
Topic Originator: DBP  
Date:   Sun 27 Nov 19:56

I`ll add one

Dunfermline or to give it is original gaelic name is Dùn Phàrlain. This literally means Parlane`s Fort

I don`t know who or what Parlane is, but it does start with par?
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 Re: PARs?
Topic Originator: ballingrypar  
Date:   Sun 27 Nov 20:04

Like that one
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 Re: PARs?
Topic Originator: sammer  
Date:   Sun 27 Nov 20:07

There`s a dispute about the origin of the name `Dunfermline` as well! If you accept the Parlane theory it`s thought that the family name Parlane is linked to the more common form McFarlane.

The `Par` link is an interesting one though.

sammer
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 Re: PARs?
Topic Originator: istvan kozma  
Date:   Sun 27 Nov 20:16

https://www.greensonscreen.co.uk/gosdb-players2.asp?pid=813

So far this is my best lead. A player called Sandy Tainsh who played for Plymouth Argyle Reserves and then joined Dunfermline in 1914.

KOZMA


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 Re: PARs?
Topic Originator: neils  
Date:   Sun 27 Nov 20:20

Yes the second part is thought to be `modern` 19th C, Dun is clearly Gaelic,

Could be Welsh too, a form of which was widely spoken, I think mostly in the Borders.

Who knows, could be reality, could be our romantic notion of languages which has always evolved.

All so confusing! I think the more we think about it, probably the furthest we get away from the truth.

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 Re: PARs?
Topic Originator: DBP  
Date:   Sun 27 Nov 20:33

Quote:

sammer, Sun 27 Nov 20:07

There`s a dispute about the origin of the name `Dunfermline` as well! If you accept the Parlane theory it`s thought that the family name Parlane is linked to the more common form McFarlane.

The `Par` link is an interesting one though.


That`s makes sense as gaelic doesn`t have a `f` and when you lenite a word (add an h then the p becomes ph and is pronuncef as an f

Eg "a kitten" is `piseag`, pronounced with a p. whereas "one kitten" is `aon phiseag` pronounced with an f

So if parlane was a family, then the son would be mac Phàrlain pronounced with an f

PS for anyone interested, the pronunciation is DOON FAR-LINE

Post Edited (Sun 27 Nov 20:43)
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 Re: PARs?
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Sun 27 Nov 21:15

see brian
Date: Sun 27 Nov 15:59

Quote: "they made a banner out of sailcloth which read "PARS supporters" referring to their hometown. Locals had asked what PARS meant and they`d replied jokingly that it meant Plymouth Argyle Rosyth Supporters and the name just stuck"

In `PARS supporters` you`ve got two `S`s = supporters twice. That doesn`t make sense.

Sammer thinks the `PARS` in that case should mean people from Par, but suggests it`s not what people from Par would be called.

What if we make allowances for the fact that we`re dealing with spoken history/ hearsay? What if the banner wasn`t `PARS Supporters,` but `PAR SUPPORTERS`?

The double `supporters` problem would cease.

And Sammer`s objection regarding the demonym of people from Par would no longer apply. (But, there`d be no harm in e.g. phoning Par library and asking - how do people from Par refer to themselves?)

Also, folk maybe didn`t say, `What does PARS mean?` they maybe said, `What does it mean, `PAR SUPPORTERS?`

Answer (joke:) `Plymouth Argyle Rosyth Supporters.`

Really it meant - we are supporters (of DAFC) from Par.

A bit like `York Hearts`, means Hearts supporters from York.


Also worth considering, we already had a nickname. Quote:

"in the early 1900s it is known that Athletics nickname was the Dumps - shortened from Dunfermline- and this is said to have been coined by English sailors visiting East End Park when their ship docked at Rosyth. After the 1914-18 War they were known as the Pars" (1)

So if our nickname at the time was `the Dumps`, they could, if they wanted to, have put on their banner, `PAR DUMPS`, but that looks like keech! So instead they put `PAR SUPPORTERS`, i.e. supporters (of DAFC) from Par.

Pity they didny just put on their banner, `DAFC SUPPORTERS FROM PAR IN CORNWALL,` and take a selfie (- wi` their muckle big wooden box camera on a tripod an` a black cloth ower the photographer`s heid -) and date it and send it tae the Press!

If the banner did read `PARS SUPPORTERS`, how d`you account for the two `S`s? Sammer thinks it`s plural. Could it be PAR`S? I can`t make that work.
`PAR SUPPORTERS` seems to be a possible solution.


(1) https://dafc.net/history/2000/q7.htm

Post Edited (Sun 27 Nov 23:08)
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 Re: PARs?
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Sun 27 Nov 22:07

Significance of this post: Workforce sent from Devonport to Rosyth:

Here`s a wee snippet from Plymouth Argyle fans forum, discussing their connections with the Pars;

"I visited Edinburgh a couple of years ago and the chap we were staying with in Queensferry was thrilled when I mentioned supporting Argyle... and proceeded to tell me the story at some length.

He added the detail that Rosyth was the younger dockyard, established early in the twentieth century because of the need for an east coast port to counter the threat of imperial Germany. Since no workforce was available locally, one was imported from Devonport. They became the Plymouth Argyle Rosyth Supporters, or PARS."


from:

SeaninStDenis, 1 Oct 2019
https://pasoti.co.uk/threads/dunfermline-athletic-historical-connection-with-argyle.109241/



Post Edited (Sun 27 Nov 23:04)
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 Re: PARs?
Topic Originator: DBP  
Date:   Sun 27 Nov 22:19

That sounds like all its doing is repeating the narrative from someone who told them the whole Plymouth thing...

I actually know nothing about Plymouth argyle but after a quick Google they look very much like hibs... Same strip, green with white sleeves and they even have a ship on their badge as well
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 Re: PARs?
Topic Originator: veteraneastender  
Date:   Sun 27 Nov 22:25

Since when was Dunfermline 600 miles from Portsmouth ?

"It`s not.

But according to Google maps it is 485 miles from PLYMOUTH - and probably a good bit further if you have to travel by Royal Navy minesweeper ... :}"

How did I confuse the two ?

DOH - still well light on 600 miles though !!!

Was it Charlie 3 to be who was skipper back then - HMS Bronington ?

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 Re: PARs?
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Sun 27 Nov 22:39

Not just a one-off banner, but `a regular feature for almost a decade`? If so, could be significant.


"Some would say [the nickname] came from a banner displayed at the ground, pre WW2, when English sailors at nearby Rosyth Dockyard adopted the Fife club as their team, proclaiming themselves Plymouth Argyle [Rosyth] Supporters [PARS] with the banner a regular feature of East End Park home games for almost a decade."


https://www.thefootballhistoryboys.com/2020/06/still-on-par-with-best-alexecky.html



Post Edited (Sun 27 Nov 23:02)
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 Re: PARs?
Topic Originator: sammer  
Date:   Sun 27 Nov 23:52

I’ve enjoyed the exchanges but I can sense some identity war is lurking below the surface.

There are those who believe the Pars nickname was imported in some form from Rosyth Dockyard workers with roots in Plymouth in the early part of the 20th century. Why it was accepted and embraced by the local population is not clear.

Then there are the nativists who believe the Pars nickname emerged from the local culture, for reasons still unclear, and the nickname was willingly adopted and adapted by well-wishing fans from the Dockyard who wanted to become part of the local football scene.

It’s a fascinating story but I’m sure we won’t fall out about it. My own suspicion is that The Pars has no more actual meaning that the names Didi,Vava and Pele. But like these, it’s just a great football name which touches our hearts.

sammer
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 Re: PARs?
Topic Originator: Paralex  
Date:   Mon 28 Nov 00:53

Call me simple minded but the first time I saw the Pars was when I was a wee boy of about 7 years old. It was against Raith Rovers at Stark`s Park on a New Year`s day derby. To my childish, shell like ears I thought the semi stupefied fans in black and white were calling their team the Bars. It would be quite natural for a child to interpret a word that was unusual to him as one which may have been more familiar. For instance when there was a large boy in my class called Oliphant, naturally the brain would think Eliphant. The name Bars was doubly etched on my brain because the Pars strip at that time wasn`t the anaemic looking pin stripe that we adopted in the late sixties and which we have now, but very thick bar like black and white stripes. So until my big brother disabused me of the notion, I thought we were the Bars because of our strip. I hope that observation is of some value in this debate. If not, please ignore.



Post Edited (Mon 28 Nov 00:55)
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 Re: PARs?
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Mon 28 Nov 00:54

it`s no` enough to just come up wi` ideas. I think we have to try and think, how might this idea have become common, and accepted in the minds of Pars fans?

When we got our nickname, what was it like at EEP? Were crowds very small? (Maybe the locals were subdued after years in the doldrums?) Maybe the folk with the banner were the big, lively noise? Maybe locals didny have anything to sing the praises o` the team about. Maybe the banner boys entertained the crowd more than the fitba, so the locals spent some time chanting in support o` them and interacting wi` them instead.

Nae harm in trying tae get a feeling for how it might have been to visit EEP in they days.

It just occured to me, my gran`s uncles and other relatives would have been there. They would have known. There was probably folk in most of our families that could have told us the answers.



Post Edited (Mon 28 Nov 01:09)
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 Re: PARs?
Topic Originator: brian  
Date:   Mon 28 Nov 07:57

A reader has got back in touch with more info :

I was just re reading my Email about the origin of "The Pars" nickname. I neglected to say that the guys from Plymouth I worked with were from a town near Plymouth called Par and the locals referred to themselves as "Pars".

Their banner referred to the fact that they were "Pars" underneath was the word supporters and it was thought that they were "Pars... supporters" A story from the mists of time no doubt, but I`ve always believed what I was told by my Granddad, and with the Plymouth guys coming up with the same story, it sounds pretty convincing to me.
Who cares...we are The Pars!

[Brian] I also did a check and found this info about train times, will look further for the location "Par"

Par to Plymouth by train
It takes an average of 57m to travel from Par to Plymouth by train, over a distance of around 25 miles (40 km). There are normally 36 trains per day travelling from Par to Plymouth and tickets for this journey start from £5.60 when you book in advance.

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 Re: PARs?
Topic Originator: brian  
Date:   Mon 28 Nov 08:21





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 Re: PARs?
Topic Originator: 1970par  
Date:   Mon 28 Nov 11:51

The eternal debate, I’ve always thought that the Plymouth Argyle Rosyth Supporters explanation was a little tenuous and probably something that was tongue in cheek constructed to fit round the nickname not the other way round

There is no doubting the link between migrant workers/serviceman coming from around the Plymouth area to fife so if I’m thinking analytically the link to the village of Par would make some sense

The midst of time will probably prove the barrier to ever resolve the debate
It’s a question that probably all Pars fans have been asked and perhaps the mystery is what give the unique nickname it’s mystique

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 Re: PARs?
Topic Originator: The Roy Barry Fan Club  
Date:   Mon 28 Nov 12:07

I think the joy of it is that there can never be certainty.

The Dunfermline Athletic Heritage Trust website


gives four plausible explanations



1. The paralytic explanation

2. The Plymouth Argyle Rosyth Supporters explanation

3. Being on a Pars with others when the Club joined the League

4. The colours of a young Salmon (Parr)



and probably wisely favours none of them over the others.



For myself I grew up believing the Paralytic story. That is because that`s what I was told by my father who was a season ticket holder from his days at Dunfermline High in the 1930s onwards.



If I was to make a particular argument for this, beyond Fife cynicism, I might cite the well-known story of Maurice Slavin our goal keeper in the season (1911) that we won the Scottish Qualifying Cup. He was ordered from the field by the captain, Jim Brown, for being intoxicated during a League match to the point of having difficulty picking the ball up. He was certainly paralytic, not athletic. We lost the game 7-2. The first mention of Pars in 1912/13 seems to chime with this.

Post Edited (Mon 28 Nov 12:27)
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 Re: PARs?
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Mon 28 Nov 13:15

I think of the PARS banner boys as being the noisy ones at EEP, If, as has been said, the banner was there over many years, they might have been the focus for our boisterous support in they days.

Imagine young blokes coming on a Saturday. They like to gather with the noisy ones, the blokes wi` the banner.

I can imagine, `the Pars` banner is a regular feature at EEP and one of the crowd hollers, `Away the Paralytics!`. I think `Paralytics` more likely was inspired by `PARS` rather than the other way round. But put those two together - the PARS banner and the `Paralytics` and there`s a strong case for the origins of our nickname.

It also strikes me that `Paralytics` pretty much rhymes with `Atho-letic.` Humorous, boisterous and inventive are features of core football supporters.

Being `on a par` or looking like fish are too cringeworthy for me to imagine they were ideas that ever lived in the minds of the lifeblood, the heart and soul of DAFC supporters.

Post Edited (Mon 28 Nov 13:53)
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 Re: PARs?
Topic Originator: sammer  
Date:   Mon 28 Nov 14:31

I didn’t know that our inebriated goalkeeper Slaven was so close in time to the first recorded use of the term ‘Par.’ The humorous connection between Athletic/paralytic might originate there: after all neither Alloa nor Forfar have been called paralytic. But the word ‘paralytic’ is unusual in everyday speech and I have never heard it abbreviated to ‘par.’ Would fans, even in a spirit of raucous humour, seriously adopt such a negative nickname? It sounds more likely a term of abuse by opponents.

Banners required an old bed sheet, two sticks and a paintbrush. Brevity is the key when daubing a slogan, so the convoluted Plymouth Argyle Rosyth Supporters is simply too many words. If they simply wrote ‘PARS’ no one would have known what it meant. And it misses out the key reference to the Dunfermline team, surely the reason for the banner in the first place. The team is called Dunfermline: not Rosyth. ‘Plymouth Argyle Dunfermline Supporters’ would have made more sense.

sammer
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 Re: PARs?
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Mon 28 Nov 17:16

Everyone loves a tryer, Sammer. I think it’s good that we’re still questioning.

Update: Could this be the gist of it?

The story so far.

The supporters who made the banner came from Par, in Cornwall. (1) They made a banner (out of sailcloth, it is said). It read, `PARS SUPPORTERS`, (2) or something similar. No-one knew what it meant except those supporters from Par.

When asked what it meant, they replied jokingly, `Plymouth Argyle Rosyth Supporters.`(3)[ i.e. nothing to do with Dunfermline Athletic. It’s a joke.] They’re at a Pars match, they bide in Rosyth. And they support Plymouth Argyle.

They were a long way (- in those days a very long way -) from home.
They’re from a wee village nobody around here has heard of and they were high-spirited, like some o’ oor current supporters.

[Every Plymouth Argyle-supporting kid from Par, probably associates the ‘Pa’ of ‘Par,’ with the PA of Plymouth Argyle. As a kid, this bright spark had maybe even said to his pals , ‘We are from Par. We are Pars.(4) What does our name stand for? We’re Plymouth Argyle Regular Supporters!’ A few years later, in Rosyth, he thinks, jokingly: ‘It’s time the world knew about us.’ And he makes his banner.]

[That is, I think the idea that ‘PA’ stands for Plymouth Argyle might have long been established in the banner boys minds. When they came to live in Rosyth, they had a ready-made joke.]

[I think if me and my mate had moved to America, and we went to a ‘soccer’ game, one day we might just have turned up wi’ a banner that said, ‘Dunfermline supporters’ and draped it over the railings. Why? For the hell of it, and also on the remote possibility of attracting anyone who’d heard of Dunfermline.]

To respond specifically to items in your last post, Sammer:

[I put it that they weren’t bothered if nobody else knew what PARS meant. They were having fun.]

[There was no reference to Dunfermline or DAFC, because they were celebrating and advertising their pride in the village they came from.]

They were first and foremost Plymouth Argyle supporters who were living in Rosyth. Dunfermline was their adopted team.]

references:
(1) & (2) & (3) DAFC.Net Football forum 28 Nov ‘22; PARs? Istvan Kozma; Brian, Sun 27 Nov ’22, 15:59; and Mon 28 Nov ’22, 07:57.

(4) people from the village of Par, referring to themselves as ‘Pars’: DAFC.Net Football forum 28 Nov ‘22; PARs? Istvan Kozma; Brian, Mon 28 Nov ’22, 07:57.

[] everything in square brackets is my own workings/imagination.



Post Edited (Mon 28 Nov 17:56)
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 Re: PARs?
Topic Originator: Buspasspar  
Date:   Mon 28 Nov 17:52

I am really enjoying reading this thread and well done Istvan for posting it

I have been an active Pars supporter for well over 50 years and always thought the two nearest explanations were the paralytic one and parallel stripes

However after reading all the posts I honestly think there is credence in the Plymouth/Par scenario .. It does actually make me believe this is finally the answer to the great mystery

We are forever shaped by the Children we once were
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 Re: PARs?
Topic Originator: parsfan  
Date:   Mon 28 Nov 18:42

Quote:

onandupthepars, Mon 28 Nov 17:16

Everyone loves a tryer, Sammer. I think it’s good that we’re still questioning.

Update: Could this be the gist of it?

The story so far.

The supporters who made the banner came from Par, in Cornwall. (1) They made a banner (out of sailcloth, it is said). It read, `PARS SUPPORTERS`, (2) or something similar. No-one knew what it meant except those supporters from Par.

When asked what it meant, they replied jokingly, `Plymouth Argyle Rosyth Supporters.`(3)[ i.e. nothing to do with Dunfermline Athletic. It’s a joke.] They’re at a Pars match, they bide in Rosyth. And they support Plymouth Argyle.

They were a long way (- in those days a very long way -) from home.
They’re from a wee village nobody around here has heard of and they were high-spirited, like some o’ oor current supporters.

[] everything in square brackets is my own workings/imagination.



With the stuff in square brackets removed there`s not much left and a lot of that should have been as well.

You can`t just make up stuff, but fair play for acknowledging it.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The universe is ruled by chance and indifference



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 Re: PARs?
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Mon 28 Nov 20:02

What`s your version then parsfan? Gonna explain even a single point such as your idea of "cart before" [horse]?

Post Edited (Mon 28 Nov 20:19)
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 Re: PARs?
Topic Originator: red-star-par  
Date:   Mon 28 Nov 20:27

The way my grandfaither always told me that after they changed from hoops to stripes the fans started calling them The Pars, on account of the parallel lines on the shirts. The black and white stripes replaced blue and white hoops for the 1909-1910 season, so I would imagine it stems from that. Fits in with sources saying the term was in use in 1912.
Work started on Rosyth Dockyard in 1909 but it was years later that it opened in 1916.
I would say if the english immigrants working at the dockyard started taking a banner to the games, with PARS on it, for Plymouth Argyle Rosyth Supporters they have used that as a clever play on the existing nickname

Post Edited (Mon 28 Nov 21:27)
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 Re: PARs?
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Mon 28 Nov 20:34

Thinking about it eh parsfan? Or maybe no`. Maybe you`re just no`very good at backin`up things you say. - or thinkin`.`Course it should be easy for you to show everybody that I`m wrong about - well everythin`; all you have to do is tell us what you know...



Post Edited (Mon 28 Nov 20:56)
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 Re: PARs?
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Mon 28 Nov 20:49

ref: red-star-par Mon 28 Nov 20:27

You suggest. or claim, that a banner which read `PARS SUPPORTERS` was `a clever ploy on the existing nickname` of `the PARS`.

What d`you mean by it was a clever ploy?

D`you not accept that their home village was Par in Cornwall?

Why d`you say Plymouth Argyle `Royal` Supporters?


I see Redstar edited his post after my edit at 20:54, changing `ploy` to `play.`And `Royal` to `Rosyth.`

Yeh, there could be something in that `clever play` on the nickname.

Post Edited (Wed 30 Nov 02:51)
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 Re: PARs?
Topic Originator: sammer  
Date:   Mon 28 Nov 21:31

The village Par connection is interesting but do we know if any of the workers from the Plymouth area ever came from there? It’s a small village little bigger than Blairhall from what I can gather. A group of workers in a ‘foreign’ land tend to identify with something broader than a small village from their homeland.

As I said earlier, the point of the banner must have been twofold: to show the origins of the fans and also to display the fact they had adopted Dunfermline as their team while working in Rosyth. All good for harmonious relations. But the second point only really works if they were identifying with the word ‘Pars’ which was already in existence. Otherwise it would look like they were still supporting Plymouth Argyle in which case they might have received a frosty welcome at EEP.

The ‘Argyle’ connection with Plymouth is equally contentious since it is clearly a Scottish/Gaelic place name. I’m sure the PA fans have debates about that as well.

sammer
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 Re: PARs?
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Mon 28 Nov 21:39

For now at least, I`m quite happy to go along with the evidence that Brian gave, which I`ve referenced earlier.

So the next issue for me is, how could `PARS` on a banner have become our nickname?

If nobody but the banner folk knew what it meant, and even when they told you what it meant, it had nothin` to do wi` DAFC - how did it catch on?

Right, some posters dinny like my style. I said before, I like to put ideas on the forum and get responses - things that prompt me to think, and to re-work my ideas.

If you dinny like that, that`s up to you, it disny bother me, but I hope the others, who have posted large or small will keep doing so.

I`ve been wondering and reading about how other teams got their nicknames. Maybe there`s a clue among them. One thing - it`s hard to believe why some nicknames were ever accepted.

Like `the Bairns`. I know it`s reckoned to be from the motto of the burgh of Falkirk: “Better meddle wi the deil than the Bairns o Fawkirk` (1)

But it`s still `bairns` efter a`. Who would choose to call themselves `Bairns` ? Did the word not always mean `children`?

And did it mean - go near my kids and you`re toast; or did it mean the children of Falkirk were even worse adversaries (or enemies) than the devil ?

Ahhhhh - that`s it. It disny mean children, it means `sons and daughters of Falkirk (2) that`s all the people who belong to Falkirk.

(So that`s something I learned, by not just assuming the meaning of `bairns`, but asking did it mean something other than children.)

That`s a start.


(1) https://www.scotslanguage.com/Football/What%27s_in_a_game%3F#:~:text
=Falkirk%20%E2%80%93%20called%20`The%20Bairns`,Fawkirk%20(the%20speckled%20church).
(2) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falkirk_F.C.#:~:text=The%20club`s%20nickname%20is%20%22The,o`%20Fa`kirk%22.



Post Edited (Mon 28 Nov 21:46)
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 Re: PARs?
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Mon 28 Nov 21:49

Ref: sammer
Mon 28 Nov 21:31

"As I said earlier, the point of the banner must have been twofold: to show the origins of the fans and also to display the fact they had adopted Dunfermline as their team while working in Rosyth. All good for harmonious relations. But the second point only really works if they were identifying with the word ‘Pars’ which was already in existence. Otherwise it would look like they were still supporting Plymouth Argyle in which case they might have received a frosty welcome at EEP."

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yes that`s a good point. Something to put into the mix.

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 Re: PARs?
Topic Originator: parsfan  
Date:   Mon 28 Nov 22:30

Quote:

onandupthepars, Mon 28 Nov 20:02

What`s your version then parsfan? Gonna explain even a single point such as your idea of "cart before" [horse]?


Quote:

onandupthepars, Mon 28 Nov 20:34

Thinking about it eh parsfan? Or maybe no`. Maybe you`re just no`very good at backin`up things you say. - or thinkin`.`Course it should be easy for you to show everybody that I`m wrong about - well everythin`; all you have to do is tell us what you know...



Just getting on with life, I don`t live on here.

I explained cart before the horse in my second post on this, as have a few others before (by a minute) and since.

I grew up with the paralytics story and I was 20 before I heard anything other than that.

Is it right? I don`t know, as I said in my first post, and as much as I could make up a story of wild nights out, pub lunches and a cheese and wine do getting out of hand just before a game, it wouldn`t lend that theory any more credence than your fantasy does the proposed Plymouth one.

I`ve never liked that theory and, to dredge up a recurring dotnet theme, your implication that they`re better fans than "us" makes me like it even less.

Like many others, I like the mystery of it and am more than happy for it to remain so.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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 Re: PARs?
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Mon 28 Nov 22:32

The nickname of Charlton Athletic is `Addicks.` Said to be from haddocks, as the ground was near a fish and chip shop. (1)

Oh yeh. "We are the Haddocks! Come on you Haddocks!...... for we only know, there`s gonna be a show and the Charlton haddocks will be there!"

Also, the `Monkey Hangers` (Hartlepool United). (2)

I can`t believe these were names the fans came up with themselves. I think they must have been given to them, or imposed on them, by others? but there again - how did the fans come to accept them? I doubt if the club told them they had to.

They baffle me.


(1) & (2) https://www.football-stadiums.co.uk/articles/club-nicknames/

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 Re: PARs?
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Mon 28 Nov 23:09

Yeh, parsfan, the cart before the horse was explained. What you haven`t noticed is that the explanation was based on a mistake and is therefore wrong.

Here`s the wrong bit:

"The PARS banner was first sighted in the early 1950s, long after the nickname was established." (1)

And here are the right bits:

About that mistake: "It appears you`ve read a quote that the nickname originated in the late 50`s, and you`ve mistakenly linked it to the banner. Check this source and you`ll find both points in there, but they`re not connected.(2)

"In the early part of the twentieth century when Rosyth Naval Base was opened, sailors from the south came to watch Dunfermline and unfurled a banner reading: Plymouth Argyle (Rosyth) Supporters." (3)

"the connection with Rosyth and Dunfermline was known about in Par for years after [/since] the first war." (4)


I don`t know what you mean about `my` `implication that they`re better fans than us.`

Well thanks for responding.


(1) (Sammer 26 Nov 21:58)

(2)(onandupthepars 27 Nov 02:49, & https://dafc.net/history/2000/q7.htm)

(3)https://dafc.co.uk/story.php?t=Origins_of_Club_Nickname&ID=8875

(4)(Brian 27 Nov 15:59)



Post Edited (Tue 29 Nov 00:14)
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 Re: PARs?
Topic Originator: Stanza  
Date:   Mon 28 Nov 23:42

The quote on the dafc website about a "PARS" banner being unfurled in the early part of the 20th century by sailors from Plymouth is NOT a record of an actual event.

It is simply stating one of the four main theories for the nickname, and there is not a shred of evidence for any such event.

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Post Edited (Mon 28 Nov 23:43)
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 Re: PARs?
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Tue 29 Nov 00:31

There are plenty of theories Stanza.

You`re not suggesting our nickname originated in the 1950`s though are you?

Or that the banner was first seen in the 1950s; or that there never were any blokes from Par with a banner?

Heres` the full erroneous quote:

"The nickname `Pars` originated in the late `50s when Dunfermline Athletic was having a horrendous season - in other words they couldn`t win to save themselves. One comedian in the stands had enough of the pathetic play that he compared the team`s performance to that of paralytic drunks. The word Paralytics resembled Athletics, so the Dunfermline Paralytics became the name coined to identify the team by frustrated fans. It was later shortened to the Pars, and it has stuck." (1)


You`re wrong to say there`s no evidence of the banner.

See: brian 27 Nov 15:59, & 28 Nov 07:57

Put that with the quote from the DAFC website and it sounds to me like they`re on about a real event.

But of course, if you`ve got evidence that`s not been mentioned, about any of the other theories, let us know it, please.


(1)https://dafc.co.uk/story.php?t=Origins_of_Club_Nickname&ID=8875



Post Edited (Tue 29 Nov 00:47)
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 Re: PARs?
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Tue 29 Nov 01:25

Hi Istvan Kozma

I wonder if you know about these sources and if they might be any good for you:

https://www.scottishleague.net/forum/

https://www.britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk/

I`ve come across three references to Fred Uren, posted from Plymouth to Rosyth, seems he played for us from 1915. Maybe a bit late, but it`s the Plymouth-Rosyth-Dunfermline link. (1)


References: (sorry can`t get them to hot-link)

(1) https://www.scottishleague.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5387&p=31494&hilit=fred+uren#p31494

& https://www.scottishleague.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5387&p=31490&hilit=plymouth+argyle#p31490

Post Edited (Tue 29 Nov 02:15)
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 Re: PARs?
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Tue 29 Nov 01:46

Here`s another wee snippet that caught my eye, might mean something or nothing.

It`s in a piece about club managers:

`Paterson (better known as Sandy then Alex) was secretary of Hearts of Beath before moving to Cowdenbeath as secretary-manager shortly after that club joined the league in 1906. Under him Cowden won two successive Division Two titles in 1913-14 & 1914-15 in the days before automatic promotion. He was once a witness in a dispute over whether local land should be used for greyhound racing or for football and was asked by the Sheriff if his club was `on a par` with Dunfermline Athletic. He replied "higher up." `

I`m just thinking, maybe that was a wee joke, knowing our nickname. If so, we had it by the time of that dispute.


https://www.scottishleague.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1958&p=20294&hilit=pars+1914

My hot-linker has conked out.



Post Edited (Tue 29 Nov 02:12)
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 Re: PARs?
Topic Originator: red-star-par  
Date:   Tue 29 Nov 08:10

Surely The Dunfermline Press carried match reports at the time which would have mentioned "Pars". The first use in print will be on record somewhere, I`m betting around 1909, when they started wearing black and white stripes
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 Re: PARs?
Topic Originator: Stanza  
Date:   Tue 29 Nov 09:37

Quote:

onandupthepars, Tue 29 Nov 00:31

There are plenty of theories Stanza.

You`re not suggesting our nickname originated in the 1950`s though are you?

Or that the banner was first seen in the 1950s; or that there never were any blokes from Par with a banner?
........................

You`re wrong to say there`s no evidence of the banner.

See: brian 27 Nov 15:59, & 28 Nov 07:57

Put that with the quote from the DAFC website and it sounds to me like they`re on about a real event.

But of course, if you`ve got evidence that`s not been mentioned, about any of the other th


A third-hand quote on an Internet forum is not evidence of an event, sorry.

As I`ve tried to say a few times on this thread, there is no substantive or documentary evidence for ANY of the theories. All that is happening is that people are recounting that many years ago some long-dead person told them one of the theories.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, so of course it`s possible that someone might one day find a contemporary account that explains the mystery. But the chances of that happening become vanishingly smaller with each passing year.

It`s really not that important to me, TBH - the uncertainty is much more interesting than some mundane explanation.

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 Re: PARs?
Topic Originator: wee eck  
Date:   Tue 29 Nov 09:57

When you see a long thread on a subject like this you know fans are pretty happy with what`s going on at the club.

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 Re: PARs?
Topic Originator: DBP  
Date:   Tue 29 Nov 10:55

Completely agree stanza…

I find stuff like this fascinating for some reason… I also like seeing language evolve in front of us m, most obviously with new words but also usage and meaning changes (and the reactions to these changes as they happen).

I think it’s cool that we have a nickname that’s a bit obscure, that could have originated in a few ways/sources but there’s nothing really obvious.

Post Edited (Tue 29 Nov 11:05)
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 Re: PARs?
Topic Originator: Paralex  
Date:   Tue 29 Nov 12:33

If it is true, as stated higher up the thread, that John Hunter`s assertion that newspapers were referring to DAFC as the PARS from as early as 1912, then that fact would blow the later theories out of the water. Presumably Mr. Hunter would have some proof from archived newspapers of the time.

Strangely enough I remember meeting John Hunter`s daughter in the Church of Scotland in Paris, of all places. She seemed rightly proud of her dad`s association with the PARS and his book is a brilliant record of the teams glory days.

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 Re: PARs?
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Tue 29 Nov 13:27

There are some posters here who are interested in exploring possibilities of how the name came about. And there are other Puritanical types, whose only contribution is to say they`re not interested and try to extinguish the flames of curiosity, imagination and thirst for knowledge that others have.

Did I read somewhere that our current badge was designed in the 1950s? If so, what was our badge before that? Anything that might have suggested `PARS`?

(e.g. `The shrimps` - who would choose that? Being as it`s on Moracambe`s badge they maybe didny have a choice.) So that`s another way nicknames can come about, from the badge.


(BTW, Stanza - your `3rd hand quote` seems highly likely to have originated from a different source than the info Brian gave. That would makes Brian`s independent corroboration. Not everything people say about the past is from theories in books. I`m surprised at your stone-wall determination to bad-mouth any new interpretation or insights into the story. Tradition dies hard, no doubt.)

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 Re: PARs?
Topic Originator: Grant  
Date:   Tue 29 Nov 13:29

I`ve always reckoned that it came from the Parr fish. Makes sense compared to all the others.
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 Re: PARs?
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Tue 29 Nov 14:01

Sammer raised a very good point:
(Ref: Mon 28 Nov 21:31)

"the point of the banner must have been twofold: to show the origins of the fans and also to display the fact they had adopted Dunfermline as their team while working in Rosyth. All good for harmonious relations. But the second point only really works if they were identifying with the word ‘Pars’ which was already in existence. Otherwise it would look like they were still supporting Plymouth Argyle in which case they might have received a frosty welcome at EEP."

A problem is that, if folk didn`t know what it meant (Ref: brian Sun 27 Nov 15:59:)

"they made a banner out of sailcloth which read "PARS supporters" referring to their hometown. Locals had asked what PARS meant and they`d replied jokingly that it meant Plymouth Argyle Rosyth Supporters..."

It suggests the nickname may not have been common among our supporters then. However, it could have been a recent replacement (for the old nickname ``Dumfs` or `Dumps`) that was known and growing among a group of our supporters and others had to ask what it meant.

But then, would blokes from Par be likely to have known it?

Maybe. They could have been mixing with our support, e.g. in bars, like the Old Inn, enthusiastically discussing our team.

These are two routes by which the name could have originated and grown among our support.

a) From an event like the banner, starting it off.

b) From lively interaction/discussion among a group of our supporters, e.g. in bars, coming up with a name, the popularity of which was then boosted by incidents such as the banner.



Post Edited (Tue 29 Nov 14:06)
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 Re: PARs?
Topic Originator: red-star-par  
Date:   Tue 29 Nov 17:19

Quote:

onandupthepars, Tue 29 Nov

These are two routes by which the name could have originated and grown among our support.

a) From an event like the banner, starting it off.

b) From lively interaction/discussion among a group of our supporters, e.g. in bars, coming up with a name, the popularity of which was then boosted by incidents such as the banner.



You seem very keen to promote this theory but I think it`s a non-starter. I reckon it`s all on the back of the parallel stripes on the shirt, and the English immigrants have used the already existing nickname to create a flag with the letters forming the name of their little supporters club Plymouth Argyle Rosyth Supporters. If they were going to give themselves a name it would more likely be Plymouth Argyle Dunfermline Supporters.
We Are The Pads, We Are The Pads
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 Re: PARs?
Topic Originator: Buspasspar  
Date:   Tue 29 Nov 17:45

The nickname of Charlton Athletic is `Addicks.` Said to be from haddocks, as the ground was near a fish and chip shop. (1)

Oh yeh. "We are the Haddocks! Come on you Haddocks!...... for we only know, there`s gonna be a show and the Charlton haddocks will be there!"

Also, the `Monkey Hangers` (Hartlepool United). (2)

I can`t believe these were names the fans came up with themselves. I think they must have been given to them, or imposed on them, by others? but there again - how did the fans come to accept them? I doubt if the club told them they had to.

They baffle me.


I have a Hartlepool Rugby club tie OAUTP presented to me when we beat England in 1990 to win the Grand Slam

This from Google :-

During the Napoleonic Wars there was a fear of a French invasion of Britain and much public concern about the possibility of French infiltrators and spies.

The fishermen of Hartlepool fearing an invasion kept a close watch on the French vessel as it struggled against the storm but when the vessel was severely battered and sunk they turned their attention to the wreckage washed ashore. Among the wreckage lay one wet and sorrowful looking survivor, the ship’s pet monkey dressed to amuse in a military style uniform.

The fishermen apparently questioned the monkey and held a beach-based trial. Unfamiliar with what a Frenchman looked like they came to the conclusion that this monkey was a French spy and should be sentenced to death. The unfortunate creature was to die by hanging, with the mast of a fishing boat (a coble) providing a convenient gallows.

In former times, when war and strife

The French invasion threaten’d life

An’ all was armed to the knife

The Fisherman hung the monkey O !

The Fishermen with courage high,

Siezed on the monkey for a French spy;

“Hang him !” says one; “he’s to die”

They did and they hung the monkey Oh!

They tried every means to make him speak

And tortured the monkey till loud he did speak;

Says yen “thats french” says another “its Greek”

For the fishermen had got druncky oh!



Post Edited (Tue 29 Nov 19:08)
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 Re: PARs?
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Tue 29 Nov 18:53

It`s amusing, Buspass. I can only imagine that the `Pool` supporters saw it differently from how it`s seen now. Far from embarassed, they must`ve been proud of the monkey business I suppose, to have taken to it for a nickname.

Maybe they thought of it as an act of true patriotism, after all the fishermen didn`t know it was a monkey.



Post Edited (Tue 29 Nov 18:57)
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 Re: PARs?
Topic Originator: istvan kozma  
Date:   Tue 29 Nov 19:19

Quote:

onandupthepars, Tue 29 Nov 01:25

Hi Istvan Kozma

I wonder if you know about these sources and if they might be any good for you:

https://www.scottishleague.net/forum/

https://www.britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk/

I`ve come across three references to Fred Uren, posted from Plymouth to Rosyth, seems he played for us from 1915. Maybe a bit late, but it`s the Plymouth-Rosyth-Dunfermline link. (1)


References: (sorry can`t get them to hot-link)

(1) https://www.scottishleague.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5387&p=31494&hilit=fred+uren#p31494

& https://www.scottishleague.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5387&p=31490&hilit=plymouth+argyle#p31490


This is good stuff. I`m following a line of enquiry that supports the idea that PARs refers to Plymouth Argyle Reserves. A suggestion that we had several players in the 1910s that came from Plymouth. But it`ll need some research to fully verify this may have been the case. This link you`ve provided is very interesting .

However the idea that it derives from our parallel stripped new top is interesting. According to http://www.historicalkits.co.uk/Scottish_Football_League/Dunfermline_Athletic/Dunfermline_Athletic.htm

We have had black and white stripes since 1909 but vertical stripes of a different colour were used from 1888. It also seems bizarre that other teams has striped kits but no other team is called the Pars.

KOZMA




Post Edited (Tue 29 Nov 19:33)
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 Re: PARs?
Topic Originator: Stanza  
Date:   Tue 29 Nov 19:28

Quote:

onandupthepars, Tue 29 Nov 13:27

There are some posters here who are interested in exploring possibilities of how the name came about. And there are other Puritanical types, whose only contribution is to say they`re not interested and try to extinguish the flames of curiosity, imagination and thirst for knowledge that others have.

(BTW, Stanza - your `3rd hand quote` seems highly likely to have originated from a different source than the info Brian gave. That would makes Brian`s independent corroboration. Not everything people say about the past is from theories in books. I`m surprised at your stone-wall determination to bad-mouth any new interpretation or insights into the story. Tradition dies hard, no doubt.)


I really don`t know why you feel it necessary to suggest that anyone who has less interest than you in the topic is Puritanical (do you really know what that means?) and is trying "to extinguish the flames of curiosity, imagination and thirst for knowledge that others have." I honestly don`t think you`ll win many friends that way!

And AFAIK I haven`t shown any "stone-wall determination to bad-mouth any new interpretation or insights into the story" - apologies if anyone thinks I have. If someone comes up with a genuinely new interpretation or insight that will be great, especially if they have contemporary or documentary evidence.

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 Re: PARs?
Topic Originator: istvan kozma  
Date:   Tue 29 Nov 19:43

I very much like the theory that parallel lines on the 1909 kit brought the nickname. What inspired that change to black and white? Perhaps came about around the same time as the end of our other team, Dunfermline Violet.

Then the dockyard fans took the nickname and tried to claim it as their own as a joke saying it stood for Plymouth Argyle (Rosyth) Supporters.

It definitely all seems very plausible.

I do feel we should make it a mission to try and crack this mystery. I`m delighted others feel the same.

KOZMA


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 Re: PARs?
Topic Originator: istvan kozma  
Date:   Tue 29 Nov 19:54

Sometimes a nickname comes about as ownership of a jibe from others. Darryl Gurney the great darts player has the nickname Super Chin on account of his big chin.

Perhaps we were dubbed a team of Plymouth Reserves and we decided to take ownership of this jibe and so we are the Pars.

As you can see I`m not letting this lie! But if we chant it we should know why.

KOZMA




Post Edited (Tue 29 Nov 19:54)
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 Re: PARs?
Topic Originator: Ben,D.A  
Date:   Tue 29 Nov 19:56

If I can add my penny worth. In the time of the Pict, `Fife` as a peninsula had many settlements, with the west being in the hands of the Paragons that defended their `border` against the main land.
As for the Badge, DUN is a settlement, FERM on the lands, LINE (Lyne) by the water, as shown with the green hill with the blue lyne with a tower on top.

In case you ask, I heard that in a conversation with the artist of the badge and my dad in the early 60s.

only 11 make the team,the rest can just but dream.
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 Re: PARs?
Topic Originator: istvan kozma  
Date:   Tue 29 Nov 20:07

Quote:

Ben,D.A, Tue 29 Nov 19:56

If I can add my penny worth. In the time of the Pict, `Fife` as a peninsula had many settlements, with the west being in the hands of the Paragons that defended their `border` against the main land.
As for the Badge, DUN is a settlement, FERM on the lands, LINE (Lyne) by the water, as shown with the green hill with the blue lyne with a tower on top.

In case you ask, I heard that in a conversation with the artist of the badge and my dad in the early 60s.


Of course we have the Paragon Club which I`d completely forgotten about. How had I missed this!? The nickname comes from Paragon tops the list

KOZMA


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 Re: PARs?
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Tue 29 Nov 20:08

Good stuff Istvan. Unfortunatley my laptop won`t let me go to the historicalkits website. Maybe you could copy some of the relevant bits? In any case, I`m keen to see your next instalment!

Hi Ben

Paragons. Well, could it be nail on head? - from the Paragon Club of Dunfermline Athletic?
Got to be a contender? Unless of course the Paragon club is too recent - but even so, the Paragons of Fife - seems like a gift.

https://www.onfife.com/newspaper_index/paragon-club/



Post Edited (Tue 29 Nov 20:10)
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 Re: PARs?
Topic Originator: istvan kozma  
Date:   Tue 29 Nov 20:16

Paragon Club! Has to be. That`s why we are the pars from the Paragons. I`m not sure how I completely forgot about this.

KOZMA


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 Re: PARs?
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Tue 29 Nov 21:36

Aye, it excited me tae Istvan, but did the Paragon club of DAFC only start in 1976 ? (1)

I`ve been looking for earlier references, without success yet. There was a Paragon cycling club in London in 1904, so it`s a name that existed in a sporting context, but whether with any demonstrable connection to our beloved, is as yet an unanswered question.

Ref: Ben,D.A
Tue 29 Nov 19:56

Hi Ben, when you mentioned the Paragons - was that a tribe in West Fife? Can you help us with where to look for info about that? (Or was it all from the artist and your Dad?)

(1) https://dafc.co.uk/story.php?t=Ernie_Jeram&ID=13560



Post Edited (Tue 29 Nov 22:15)
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 Re: PARs?
Topic Originator: fcda  
Date:   Tue 29 Nov 22:03

I`d suggest reading John Hunter`s book as a starting point. The next thing would be to get to the library to try and find the earliest reference to "Pars" in the Dunfermline Press.

This would give some context and help eliminate some of the theories.

Stuff written on the internet can`t be considered proof. If it references historical publications, that would be useful.

Of course, the journalists could also have misunderstood, but over the course of a few articles you should be able to build a picture.
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 Re: PARs?
Topic Originator: buffy  
Date:   Tue 29 Nov 22:08

“a person or thing that is perfect or has a large amount of a particular good characteristic:
a paragon of virtue”

Well that’s me to a T but whit aboot the team? 😂

”Buffy’s Buns are the finest in Fife”, J. Spence 2019”
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 Re: PARs?
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Tue 29 Nov 22:16

Och yer no that auld buffy!

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 Re: PARs?
Topic Originator: SusieQ  
Date:   Tue 29 Nov 22:33

Loving this discussion. Have no idea which story / reason is true but if anyone ever asks, I usually say that no one knows for sure & give most of the examples mentioned in this thread.

Personally I`ve always felt the Plymouth Argyle version is most credible but it`s incredibly interesting to hear others opinions and which story is favoured by everyone!

I always felt the young salmon thing was a bit silly as who knew lol & I think that a lot of teams could claim to be "on a par" with better teams, so I never really put much thought into those.

Having parallel lines on our strip or the PA Rosyth Supporters always made more sense to me.

Been fascinated by the village of Par stuff tho - just a coincidence, or is it a massive clue???

I guess we will never ever know for sure but I think it`s been a really interesting conversation 👏🏼👏🏼


COME ON YE PARS!
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 Re: PARs?
Topic Originator: brian  
Date:   Tue 29 Nov 23:11

I agree, it`s been a good discussion, still not sure the outcome

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 Re: PARs?
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Tue 29 Nov 23:33

ref: fcda
Date: Tue 29 Nov 22:03

Hi fcda

Thank you for the advice. A friend of mine just gave me DAFC 1885-1985 by John Hunter.

Post Edited (Tue 29 Nov 23:53)
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 Re: PARs?
Topic Originator: McCaig`s Tower  
Date:   Tue 29 Nov 23:50

I’m trying to think of another example where a club’s nickname isn’t an abbreviation of some sort, or a reference to the local town or industry, or to the team colours or badge, and I’m struggling. Other than perhaps West Brom (see below) (and ignoring rhymes, like the Harry Wraggs or the Cabbage).

It would be interesting, albeit a lot of work, to trawl through contemporary match reports to search for references to “the Pars”. Digitalisation may make this easier than when the reference works referred to were originally written.

In the olden days, reports could be quite flowery; certainly, for variety, journalists would be keen to find alternative ways of referring to DAFC – so you would get: Dunfermline, the Athletic, the Fifers, the boys from East End Park, the boys in black and white and no doubt many other descriptions. Having an acceptable shorthand would be a boon for reporters back in the day. Whether they would go so far as to invent one, or merely publicise one already in existence, I don’t know.

It is possible that the name has its genesis in more than one theory. To make an extreme suggestion a hack might have written something like “the home team, playing in their smart new strip with parallel lines, resembling that a young salmon, showed themselves to be on a par with their illustrious opponents…and it was no surprise when “the Pars” drew level…”

A response to “being on a Par with” might have drawn the retort “paralytic, more like”. I suspect (on the basis of absolutely no evidence) that the Plymouth connection was a play on an existing term, although that would require an existing term to become popularised.

So how do some nicknames gain currency, and others wither away?

And how come some clubs’ names have changed? WBA used to be “the Throstles” but have morphed into “the Baggies” (boing boing). Crystal Palace were the Glaziers – presumably a play on all the glass in the building of the same name but were rebranded as “the Eagles”. Closer to home Stirling were “the Albion” which has become “the Binos”, presumably with a spell as “Albinos” on the way.

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 Re: PARs?
Topic Originator: Ben,D.A  
Date:   Wed 30 Nov 00:33

As we had the Paragon club at one time, who named it that and why?

Some should read books in libraries for more information than the internet offers.

only 11 make the team,the rest can just but dream.
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 Re: PARs?
Topic Originator: sammer  
Date:   Wed 30 Nov 01:30

I think the basketball team based in Carnegie gym around the late 1960s was called The Paragons. That would be before the Paragon club opened at EEP. A PE teacher from Woodmill School called Matt Rennie played for them and he did attend Pars matches as a spectator.

The other Paragons from the 1960s were the Jamaican Ska band whose song ‘The Tide is High’ was covered successfully by Blondie years later. Maybe a good song for the EEP tannoy.

sammer
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 Re: PARs?
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Wed 30 Nov 01:49

Ref: McCaig`s Tower
Tue 29 Nov 23:50

"How do some nicknames gain currency?"

It`s a really good question.

It`s a social phenomenon that I think would make a fascinating subject for in-depth study.

In this thread, besides `What inspired the word `Pars`? it`s the other big question.

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 Re: PARs?
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Wed 30 Nov 01:53

Ref: Ben,D.A
Date: Wed 30 Nov 00:33

"As we had the Paragon club at one time, who named it that and why?

Some should read books in libraries for more information than the internet offers."

------------------------------------------------------------------------

That`s the direction I`m going now, Ben.



Post Edited (Wed 30 Nov 02:36)
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 Re: PARs?
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Wed 30 Nov 02:07

D.A. team photos 1897, 1909-10 & 1911

I was looking at the team photos in `Dunfermline Athletic Heritage Trust`. I wondered if there was anything relevant to our nickname on a badge we might have had before the current one was designed in 1957 (1).

Of particular interest are photos of the team 1909-10 and 1911 (2). Our strip was apparently black and white stripes (3 black + 4 white seen from the front).

There`s no badge and, from other later photos as well, it appears we never had one pre 1957. So the origin of our nickname has nothing to do with a badge.

(I`d like to copy the photos here but I have to ask permission first)


(1) ref. badge designed in 1957:https://dafc.co.uk/story.php?t=Club_Badge&ID=3639

(2)https://daht.org.uk/gallery.php?CAT=Team%20Photos&d=1968-09-01

Now all you fishy folk, let`s be honest, they really look as much like PARR as elephants on pogo sticks. Have a look and satisfy yourselves.

Also, regarding the PARALLEL BARS, there`s a team photo, captioned 1897, when we had similar stripes (not sure what colour - maybe red and white) Seems nobody thought they looked like parr, or parallel bars.

Post Edited (Wed 30 Nov 02:40)
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 Re: PARs?
Topic Originator: LochgellyAlbert  
Date:   Wed 30 Nov 09:29

Quote:

onandupthepars, Wed 30 Nov 01:53

Ref: Ben,D.A
Date: Wed 30 Nov 00:33

"As we had the Paragon club at one time, who named it that and why?

Some should read books in libraries for more information than the internet offers."

------------------------------------------------------------------------

That`s the direction I`m going now, Ben.



Good luck with that one!

Having in the last week done some investigation through the Dunfermline Press archives you will need some luck. The editions are all on microfiche and I really struggled to unearth what I needed, I actually had dates of the events but between winding a handle and loading the reels, it takes a while.

Mind and take your piece!🥪☕️ And a spare set of eyes!👀🙈
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 Re: PARs?
Topic Originator: Stanza  
Date:   Wed 30 Nov 09:53

Quote:



Good luck with that one!

Having in the last week done some investigation through the Dunfermline Press archives you will need some luck. The editions are all on microfiche and I really struggled to unearth what I needed, I actually had dates of the events but between winding a handle and loading the reels, it takes a while.

Mind and take your piece!🥪☕️ And a spare set of eyes!👀🙈


If you have a contact in the Dunfermline Press office you might be able to get access to the bound volumes they hold of editions of the Press for the period you want to look at. I did some research that way a few years ago (NOT about the Pars nickname!)

It`s easier than using microfiche, but it`s still an extremely laborious project going through years of closely printed type (no pictures).

I

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Post Edited (Wed 30 Nov 09:53)
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 Re: PARs?
Topic Originator: jake89  
Date:   Wed 30 Nov 10:57

Surprised the likes of the Dunfermline Press haven`t digitised this. Could be a nice money-spinner if they were to make it available to subscribers or even on the basis of ad revenues.
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 Re: PARs?
Topic Originator: Ben,D.A  
Date:   Wed 30 Nov 12:51

I heard them talking before they left to go to the DASC which was across from the bottoms bus stance, I think it was later the Jubilee Club.
My dad was involved with the Development Club from the start around 1960 and they had an office at the top of the New Row. I remember going there every Saturday morning with him to hand in money he had collected from Comrie Pit.
Andy Watson was the secretary of the Club at the time and a chain smoker, the place smelled of cigar and fag reek. I met loads of players of the time and always got my hair ruffled by them but I couldn`t tell you who they were as I was 5-6 years old at the time.

Edit. I once seen a map on the walls of the Cottage Inn when they turned it into some Caribbean pirate theme with a palm tree in the middle of the floor with monkeys on them. There was a small recess called the Captains Table where the framed map was. That took me by surprise to see Fife split with different names and Paragon was there in front of me. I gave more belief about the discussion my dad and his mate, an art teacher I think, had.



Post Edited (Wed 30 Nov 13:34)
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 Re: PARs?
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Wed 30 Nov 13:24

That`s lovely Ben, stories from your own experience like that are smashing.

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 Re: PARs?
Topic Originator: wee eck  
Date:   Wed 30 Nov 13:31

I assumed the Paragon Club was so named in recognition of the football club`s nickname. Wasn`t it opened in the 1960s? I doubt it was a reference to some earlier source of `Par`.

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 Re: PARs?
Topic Originator: Grant  
Date:   Wed 30 Nov 14:07

Quote:

onandupthepars, Wed 30 Nov 02:07

D.A. team photos 1897, 1909-10 & 1911

I was looking at the team photos in `Dunfermline Athletic Heritage Trust`. I wondered if there was anything relevant to our nickname on a badge we might have had before the current one was designed in 1957 (1).

Of particular interest are photos of the team 1909-10 and 1911 (2). Our strip was apparently black and white stripes (3 black + 4 white seen from the front).

There`s no badge and, from other later photos as well, it appears we never had one pre 1957. So the origin of our nickname has nothing to do with a badge.

(I`d like to copy the photos here but I have to ask permission first)


(1) ref. badge designed in 1957:https://dafc.co.uk/story.php?t=Club_Badge&ID=3639

(2)https://daht.org.uk/gallery.php?CAT=Team%20Photos&d=1968-09-01

Now all you fishy folk, let`s be honest, they really look as much like PARR as elephants on pogo sticks. Have a look and satisfy yourselves.

Also, regarding the PARALLEL BARS, there`s a team photo, captioned 1897, when we had similar stripes (not sure what colour - maybe red and white) Seems nobody thought they looked like parr, or parallel bars.



Well obviously they don`t look like a fish, but a Parrs defining characteristics is it`s black and white stripes, just like ours would have been after 1909.

How many black and white striped animals are there in Scotland? Maybe the badger? But even then those aren`t parallel stripes going up and down its body.

Much like Alloa were called the wasps, I could imagine someone shouting "Come on the Parrs" far more than I can imagine watching us going "Come on the parallel stripes" or because we had a drunk goalkeeper shouting "come on the paraleltics" or because we were referred to as on par shouting "Come on the on Pars!". Or because people from the dockyard might have been from Plymouth people coming up with the very, very convulated "Plymouth argyle Rosyth supporters" and going from there.

http://www.historicalkits.co.uk/Scottish_Football_League/Dunfermline_Athletic/Dunfermline_Athletic.htm

We had parallel strips twice out of seven times before we adopted black and white stripes three times on the bounce, so a nickname about parallel stripes pre black and white kits doesn`t make sense.

Likewise we went from having maroon kits, to then having blue ones, a nickname about our colour may have came. We seemed to give each colour three shots before then sticking with black and white stripes, maybe because a nickname had came up from the terraces that matched the kits?

The Parr has always been the most logical explanation, it`s not a very sexy one, but it`s the most logical.
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 Re: PARs?
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Wed 30 Nov 14:22

Ref: Ben,D.A
Tue 29 Nov 19:56

"If I can add my penny worth. In the time of the Pict, `Fife` as a peninsula had many settlements, with the west being in the hands of the Paragons that defended their `border` against the main land.
As for the Badge, DUN is a settlement, FERM on the lands, LINE (Lyne) by the water, as shown with the green hill with the blue lyne with a tower on top.

In case you ask, I heard that in a conversation with the artist of the badge and my dad in the early 60s."


Ref: Ben,D.A
Wed 30 Nov 12:51

"I once seen a map on the walls of the Cottage Inn when they turned it into some Caribbean pirate theme with a palm tree in the middle of the floor with monkeys on them. There was a small recess called the Captains Table where the framed map was. That took me by surprise to see Fife split with different names and Paragon was there in front of me. I gave more belief about the discussion my dad and his mate, an art teacher I think, had."

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"to see Fife split with different names and Paragon was there in front of me."

Boy o Boy!

It`s absolutely fascinating stuff, Ben (This, and the stuff posted by Brian, has been the most interesting to me.)

Your latest post reminded me about something else I read regarding a map. Here it is:


"I was on holiday this weekend in a country lodge in Pitlochry.

On the wall ....was a map called "FIFE AE PARS OCCIDENNIAL" with the translation underneath "The West Part Of Fife" .
I thought it was Latin but I took it out the original frame (hope no one checks) and the writing on the back looked Dutch to me.... It struck me as odd that the word Pars next to West Fife was there." (1)

Yes, as Wee Eck says, the Paragon club name could have been based on the nickname. But I think these connections between `Paragon`, `FIFE AE PARS`, and West Fife Picts are intruguing enough to be included as part of the story, whatever the outcome.

(1) https://dafc.net/history/2000/q7.htm



Post Edited (Wed 30 Nov 14:50)
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 Re: PARs?
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Wed 30 Nov 14:38

I think this is the old map of West Fife that was seen at Pitlochry:

It`s titled: ‘Fifae Pars Occidentalis The West Part Of Fife`(published 1655)

It`s not the map you saw Ben. The title is Latin. Dunfermline is on it, at the extreme left side. It`s interesting but, unless we imagine a group of guys who had influence with the Pars club and support saw a copy of this map (in a pub, club, boardroom etc.) and decided, right w`ere gonna call oorsel`s `The Pars`... (or a journalist coined it)...

I think the map you saw might be more significant.



https://shop.blaeuprints.com/maps/united-kingdom/scotland/fife-west/

Post Edited (Wed 30 Nov 15:00)
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 Re: PARs?
Topic Originator: Ben,D.A  
Date:   Wed 30 Nov 15:02

Not the same Map as Fife was called Fib, which is the Pict name. I`m looking back some old research I done many years ago before computers.

only 11 make the team,the rest can just but dream.
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 Re: PARs?
Topic Originator: fcda  
Date:   Wed 30 Nov 15:09

Interesting. Still unlikely that the nickname came from the Latin for "part".

One thing to remember: for the name to have taken off at the time, it would have to make sense to supporters at the time.

The Plymouth connection - would other fans have adopted some random acronym because a small group had a banner? If they understood the acronym related to Plymouth, would they have wanted to use it? Seems very unlikely. If the banner happened to read PADS, could you imagine that being adopted?

Similar for the parr fish. If that was the connection, surely there would have been some reference to it using that spelling. Was fishing very very popular at the time? Was it very common to eat parr? If somone was heard shouting "c`mon ye parrs", would those around have understood that it was referring to a fish? Would they make the leap from there to adopt it themselves?

Parallel stripes - I suppose an indicator would be whether "The Parallels" was ever common for any other team around then. I`m not aware of any today but maybe back then? Was "parallel" even a common term? "Stripes" might have been more likely. Maybe there was a bit of a backlash to the change from stripes to hoops that lead to using the term? Again surely there would be reference to the full version "parallels" somewhere.

"On a par" - we know that the club applied to join the scottish leagues around 1907 (can`t find the exact year) and were rejected several times until finally being accepted in 1912. If there were articles and and quotes from the club referring to the team as being "on a par" with the league teams, it could have gained traction over the course of 5 years.

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 Re: PARs?
Topic Originator: Ben,D.A  
Date:   Wed 30 Nov 16:08

Does anyone know who or why it was actually named the Paragon. Some people on the board at the time surely decided that.

All Pars ideas posted here are hand me downs from family, such as mine are, and fully acceptable and I`m sure we`ll all stick to our own belief in this enigmatic Legend.

I found out through contacts that the Lyneburn had to the east Parlyn and and to the west Pargon. Par was a bit of a common name for southwest Fife, or Fib, back in the 7th century.

As for the Latin, well Rome didn`t stop at Antonine wall :)

only 11 make the team,the rest can just but dream.
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 Re: PARs?
Topic Originator: sammer  
Date:   Wed 30 Nov 16:09

Parallel lines.
The case for: We think of parallel lines as a sharp contrast drawn in black ink on white paper. Historically it seems that only Dunfermline and St. Mirren have used this colour combination vertically and the Paisley team didn’t really need a nickname since they were ‘The Saints’ or ‘The Buddies.’

The case against: To demonstrate parallel lines we normally draw two lines opposite one another horizontally, not vertically. Thus the term `Pars` would be more suited to the Dundee United strip of the early 1960s which contained two black parallel lines across the chest.

sammer
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 Re: PARs?
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Wed 30 Nov 16:09

Lots of good points there fcda.

Regarding the `on a par` bit. From my earlier post, 29 Nov 01:46

It`s in a piece about club managers:

`Paterson...was secretary of Hearts of Beath before moving to Cowdenbeath as secretary-manager. He was once a witness in a dispute over whether local land should be used for greyhound racing or for football and was asked by the Sheriff if his club was `on a par` with Dunfermline Athletic. He replied "higher up."(1)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This was the manager of Cowdenbeath being asked if his club was on a par with ours. And he said Cowdenbeath were `higher up.` So it`s not about the Pars being on a par with other teams. Nevertheless I think it`s funny enough that it could have been picked up out of the papers by the supporters and used as a slogan at our matches with Cowdenbeath. `We are the Pars! We are the Pars!" (I don`t know - , but I think it`s something our fans would certainly have noticed, talked and joked about and could have made something of at our derby matches. I think it`s the kind of thing that would have had the potential to become quickly adopted.)

I`ve copied the relevant part. I can`t get it to link to the page. It`s scottishleague.net/forum Yeh, just a forum, but there`s enough detail there. I think it`s worth checking for a primary source.


(1)
https://www.scottishleague.net/forum/viewtopic.phpf=3&t=1958&p=20294&hilit=paterson+cowdenbeath#p20294

Post Edited (Wed 30 Nov 16:43)
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 Re: PARs?
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Wed 30 Nov 16:27

All they Dunfermline `Par` connections, brilliant Ben.



Post Edited (Wed 30 Nov 17:39)
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 Re: PARs?
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Wed 30 Nov 22:12

I`ve been searching the British Newspaper Archive for the earliest reference to `the PARS.`

It`s quite easy to use. Much easier than microfilm at the library. You can search through extracts for nothing, till you find something of interest. You can download three pages free. (After that it would cost £12.99 a month.) If you`re having a go, I recommend doing lots of free searches through the extracts, to make a list, then select the ones you fancy.

I hope someone else has had, or will have, a go.

But here`s a warning. I found some headline references, all from the Dundee Courier, that I hoped would relate to our nickname, e.g:

(4 Oct 1912) FOOTBALL NOTES AND NOTIONS: PARS ABOUT WHAT`S GOING ON

When I downloaded, strangely, there`s nothing at all under that column heading about us. There is some info in the column to the left, about a big upcoming game against Cowdenbeath, but it contains no mention of `the Pars; only `Dunfermline Athletic`, `Dunfermline`, and `the Athletic`.

I don`t know what `PARS` refers to in that headline, might it be the journalist`s name?

I searched about 800 extracts. It`s not too bad because, if your search terms appear in the extract, they`re highlighted. Only took me about 3 hours.

I hope someone else will have a go for free.

Here`s another I looked at, but again it`s nothing about us, except a wee article in the column to the left, but there`s no reference in it to `the PARS`.

(29 Nov 1912) FOOTBALL FANCIES AND FACTS: THE LATEST NEWSY PARS ABOUT PLAYERS AND CLUBS

(Yep `NEWSY` . Weird)

I`m not gonna go for any more headlines. I`m gonna try and make sure `The Pars` is in the text.

BTW My search terms were `Dunfermline Athletic the Pars`. I put both in otherwise you get loads of `pars` about farm animals and other gems.

https://www.britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk/



Post Edited (Wed 30 Nov 22:38)
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 Re: PARs?
Topic Originator: DulochConvert  
Date:   Wed 30 Nov 22:46

I just did a search on that website and sound this.

The Evening Telegraph and Post Tuesday March 11th 1913

Strangers to East End Park have, I believe often wondered what meaning there was in the war-cry of a section of the home support “come away the Pars”. The term is a abbreviation of the word “Paralytics” which at one time an unkind critic had dubbed the Athletics.

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 Re: PARs?
Topic Originator: wee eck  
Date:   Wed 30 Nov 23:20

onandupthepars, in that context could `PARS` just be an abbreviation for `PARAGRAPHS`?

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 Re: PARs?
Topic Originator: red-star-par  
Date:   Wed 30 Nov 23:52

That BNA site is pretty good. I suspect we might get our answer there, but it might require a fair bit research.

I have had a quick look but the software that must digitise these newspaper images does seem to occasionally confuse Pars with Park, Part etc.
I also seen a couple of headlines on there where it was saying things like "Pars from Tannadice", but there was no mention of Dunfermline in the paragraph after. It was almost as if they were using the word Pars when they could have used "Notes from Tannadice", as they were doing elsewhere. Likewise there was a heading which said "Brechin Pars", and then followed what seemed to be the scores of several teams from around the Brechin area. Perhaps Pars meant something else in journalism at the time? (edited to add a bit I found online "It is standard practice in news journalism to start a new paragraph with each sentence. We call each of these short paragraphs a par.')

I guess we should be looking for when The Pars was first used. This report from 11 March 1913 gives some insight, so it`ll be interesting to see if there is anything before that.

DUNFERMLINE`S NEW PROPOSALS

... section of the home supporters, Come away the `Pars.` The term abbreviation of the word Paralytics, which at one time an unkind critic had dubbed the Athletics. With Dunfermline tho club`s title the Pars. will also have to be suspended. Those who cling ...

Published: Tuesday 11 March 1913
Newspaper: Dundee Evening Telegraph
County: Angus, Scotland
Type: Article | Words: 1119 | Page: 5 | Tags: none

Post Edited (Wed 30 Nov 23:58)
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 Re: PARs?
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Thu 1 Dec 11:22

Execellent stuff Red Star, Duloch, Wee Eck.



Post Edited (Fri 02 Dec 00:39)
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 Re: PARs?
Topic Originator: DBP  
Date:   Thu 1 Dec 17:26

So it looks like rather than moaning, we took ownership of a slagging - cool!

So when we sing COYP… is that really the same as Aberdeen fans singing we’re only sheep sh*ggin bar stewards? 🤔
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 Re: PARs?
Topic Originator: istvan kozma  
Date:   Thu 1 Dec 19:21

When I started this thread I never thought so many people would make such an effort to track down the origins of Pars.

So a big thanks to those who`ve researched it.

Has the mystery been solved or is there still a twist? Looks like Paralytics has become the likely origin?

KOZMA


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 Re: PARs?
Topic Originator: Buspasspar  
Date:   Thu 1 Dec 19:35

Superb post and thread istvan .. enjoyed reading all the theories .. onandupthepars has been a star with all the research and time he has donated to the effort .. COYP

We are forever shaped by the Children we once were
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 Re: PARs?
Topic Originator: fcda  
Date:   Thu 1 Dec 19:44

Good find DulochConvert / red-star-par!

This confirms that the name was fairly well established by March 1913.

As for the meaning, this is only one account and it`s from a Dundee-based paper.

How would you get from Paralytic to Pars? It doesn`t seem like a natural abbreviation.

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 Re: PARs?
Topic Originator: Par  
Date:   Thu 1 Dec 19:52

Paralytic`s it appears to be then

"How would you get from Paralytic to Pars? It doesn`t seem like a natural abbreviation."

I wonder if the shout was Come Away Ye PARAS which was misheard as Come Away Ye Pars and that`s what it was changed too over the years

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 Re: PARs?
Topic Originator: istvan kozma  
Date:   Thu 1 Dec 20:18

Quote:

red-star-par, Wed 30 Nov 23:52

That BNA site is pretty good. I suspect we might get our answer there, but it might require a fair bit research.

I have had a quick look but the software that must digitise these newspaper images does seem to occasionally confuse Pars with Park, Part etc.
I also seen a couple of headlines on there where it was saying things like "Pars from Tannadice", but there was no mention of Dunfermline in the paragraph after. It was almost as if they were using the word Pars when they could have used "Notes from Tannadice", as they were doing elsewhere. Likewise there was a heading which said "Brechin Pars", and then followed what seemed to be the scores of several teams from around the Brechin area. Perhaps Pars meant something else in journalism at the time? (edited to add a bit I found online "It is standard practice in news journalism to start a new paragraph with each sentence. We call each of these short paragraphs a par.`)

I guess we should be looking for when The Pars was first used. This report from 11 March 1913 gives some insight, so it`ll be interesting to see if there is anything before that.

DUNFERMLINE`S NEW PROPOSALS

... section of the home supporters, Come away the `Pars.` The term abbreviation of the word Paralytics, which at one time an unkind critic had dubbed the Athletics. With Dunfermline tho club`s title the Pars. will also have to be suspended. Those who cling ...

Published: Tuesday 11 March 1913
Newspaper: Dundee Evening Telegraph
County: Angus, Scotland
Type: Article | Words: 1119 | Page: 5 | Tags: none


Did you manage to read the full article?

KOZMA


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 Re: PARs?
Topic Originator: DulochConvert  
Date:   Thu 1 Dec 20:33

I think it’s probably important that the 1913 article doesn’t refer to the team as Dunfermline but Athletic which rhymes with Paralytic.
In fact the point of the article is the Dunfermline Athletic are considering dropping the Athletic from there name and a meeting had been organised, the worry was that a new team could be formed as Dunfermline FC and steal there identity.
Presumably at the time our club was know as Athletic and the other Dunfermline club which had recently folded was known as Dunfermline, I am sure a had read someplace that the other club folded in 1910

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 Re: PARs?
Topic Originator: istvan kozma  
Date:   Thu 1 Dec 21:06

Quote:

DulochConvert, Thu 1 Dec 20:33

I think it’s probably important that the 1913 article doesn’t refer to the team as Dunfermline but Athletic which rhymes with Paralytic.
In fact the point of the article is the Dunfermline Athletic are considering dropping the Athletic from there name and a meeting had been organised, the worry was that a new team could be formed as Dunfermline FC and steal there identity.
Presumably at the time our club was know as Athletic and the other Dunfermline club which had recently folded was known as Dunfermline, I am sure a had read someplace that the other club folded in 1910



I believe they were called Dunfermline Violet.

KOZMA


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 Re: PARs?
Topic Originator: istvan kozma  
Date:   Thu 1 Dec 21:10

Dunfermline Violet used to play matches at East End Park

KOZMA


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 Re: PARs?
Topic Originator: Socks  
Date:   Thu 1 Dec 22:17

The full article is below - you`ll have to excuse the OCR software having misread the odd character and the lack of paragraphs, but it`s clear enough to work out what was actually written. The content is a good snapshot of what was going on at the time.

I don`t think the fact that it`s mentioned in a Dundee paper counts against it, as a look at other articles form the same paper around the same time show that the writer (going by name of East Ender) is basically their Pars correspondent, and someone with a close interest in the club.

---------------------------

DUNFERMLINE`S NEW PROPOSALS. Club Secrets Divulged. Will the Team`s Name Changed P (By East Ender.) I fancy that the followers of the Athletic ;; re a better frame of mind this week. `Saturday`s victory will act as tonic to their .shattered nerve®. This week I intend dealing with the team doings, but with affairs which are exercising the minds of the officials. Suffice to say that the committee did a good stroke of business when they secured the services of Cooper. and Baird, the other new man, were outstanding. Should the exertions of tho team-biuldere result in the engaging of players with the abilities possessed by these two players, then the side for next season will continue the success of the past three years and bring nearer that glorious time when First League football is played in Dunfermline. `10-morrow night tho committee make their parade before the members the club. They will give account of their stewardship, and, naturally, mean to give as satisfactory a complexion they possibly can. A sort of, topsy-turvy prophesied. The same has been promised before the annual meetings for just about as long as I can remember. .But on this occasion there seems to some justification for this desire for office. Times are flourishing with tho Athletic. Sooner or later limited liability company will be floated, i When that proposal becomes an accomplished fact there will for disposal the funds and assets of the present club. have tried ascertain in different quarters how this will done. What I have learned that the members of the club at the particular time will obtain shares in the company equivalent to their proportion of the club`s credit. This, process has been adopted in connection with other clubs —the Rovers, for instance. How it to carried out one can tell me. Will the members of the Committee of Management receive sort of bonus for their past labours, and will members of one season`s standing receive the same "gift" as those who may have been in membership for a few seasons? certain that the flotation of such company cannot be effected without some little friction. Let us hope it will be reduced the minimum. ! I shall not the length that the gentlemen whose names I have heart! mentioned for cffioe are coming forward because that they will profit. What I is—Would they have sought to be members of the committee, say, five yeans ago? But they are quite entitled to place the

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 Re: PARs?
Topic Originator: Socks  
Date:   Thu 1 Dec 22:18

But they are quite entitled to place their services in the hands the members. jAll who have been referred to likely |`to be candidates for position appear to b»:> `•well qualified. introduction of new blood would not be to the detriment of the club`s affairs. I don`t mean that the present mem: bers committee have made mess of ;things. 1 give them the credit of having done excellently. On the committee, however, ifi required more than an accurate knowledge of when football is plaved as ought to do, although, course, that is big advantage. Business ability neccssary in a concern dealing with £2000 in the course of one year. Call for Economy. Next season and the following years there will call for the exercise of economy, even although the next financial year may be with a fairly substantial balance. A report is being submitted at. the annual meeting giving details the conditions upon which East End Park will in future be occupied. I not liberty give particulars before they are laid before the members. I can tell the club followers so much, that the j field has been taken on a certain lease of years rent oompared with which the present charge is a mere fleabite. Another matter which almost certain to considered tho salaries paid to the secretary and treasurer. Salaries, forsooth 1 I might have chosen a different word. Fancy any individual having to administer annual fund of about £20C0 for, I believe, a paltry sum of £5! A motion is io laid before the members that a chartered be ap! pointed to audit the amounts. The fee likely to be paid to him will be equal to the sum voted to the treasurer for his whole year`s work. A similar ciroumetance associated with the office of secretary. That official has liad to undertake enormous amount of work for wage which does not amount to a week. I shall not be surprised if the secretary and treasurer have a gentle kick at the present order things. Their positions have not exactly been plums, and only treat loyalty to the game and the old club could have kept their hands the plough. Probably one of the most interesting of the motions to be brought forward is a proposal to change the name from the Dunfermline Athletic to Dunfermline. I believe will meet with some opposition, for the old familiar name of Athletic will be difficult to drop like hot potato. Strangers to East End Park have, I believe, often wondored what meaning there was in the war-cry of a section of the home supporters, " Come away the `Pars.`" The term abbreviation of the word "Paralytics," which at one time an unkind critic had dubbed the Athletics. With Dunfermline tho club`s title " the Pars." will also have to be suspended. Those who cling old associations must remember that time brings There may come period when another senior club will be established in Dunfermline. Jn the event of there not being team claiming the name of the town, the officials of a new concern will have nothing to prevent adopting the title. The meeting is certain to

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 Re: PARs?
Topic Originator: Socks  
Date:   Thu 1 Dec 22:19

The meeting is certain to be lively gathering. I would advise all the members to use their votes crefully. and find out has been doing the best work on the committee. If they think change* are desirable, select men who have business ability. Much of the club`s future welfare depends uDon the results of the deliberations. Let nothing be done in an acrimonious spirit, but let the actions all prompted what will be best for the club, and not for reasons of fault-finding, petty jealousies, or prejudice.

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 Re: PARs?
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Thu 1 Dec 23:34

I`ve taken a bit of time to read it on the BNA website. It`s a joy to see the old `paper itself. Well done Socks for printing it. I`ve been working on this and didn`t see you`d done it.

The article is written by someone called ‘EAST ENDER’ and, on reading it, it doesn’t take long to find that this is an insider of the first rank. It’s not the result of a journalist’s interview. It might have been written by our club secretary. (1)

He’s giving a ‘heads up’ about the AGM to be held the following day. He knows the agenda and, among other things, there’s to be a vote on whether or not to change our name from ‘Dunfermline Athletic’ to ‘Dunfermline.’

Unknown to him, he includes what are for us, crucial details about the origin of our nickname. It’s like reading his diary. Not only does he tell us that ‘Pars’ is short for ‘Paralytics’ – he also tells us why he’s telling us. It’s because, if we were to lose the ‘Athletic’ from our name, we’d also lose ‘the Pars’. It would become redundant, because previously, he says, our nickname was ‘the Athletics.’ (2)

What’s the logic there? He doesn’t elaborate on it, but it doesn’t take much of a leap to see that ‘Paralytics’ is almost a perfect rhyme with ‘Athletics’(Especially when it`s chanted - it often has an extra syllable - i.e. four, as in Paralytics.) (3)

It seems he was saying that, if the term ‘Athletic’ is to become defunct, so would, ‘the Athletics’, ‘the Paralytics’, and ‘the Pars,’ all of which depend on it.

Here’s some of the most relevant stuff:

‘Tomorrow night the committee make their parade before the members of the club… Probably one of the most interesting of the motions to be brought forward is a proposal to change the name from the ‘Dunfermline Athletic’ (4) to ‘Dunfermline’. I believe it will meet with some opposition, for the old familiar name of Athletic will be difficult to drop like a hot potato. Strangers (5) to East End Park have, I believe, often wondered what meaning there was in the war-cry of a section of the home supporters. “Come away the Pars.” The term is an abbreviation of the word “Paralytics”, which at one time an unkind critic had dubbed the Athletics (6). With Dunfermline as the club’s title, “the Pars” will also have to be suspended.’(7)

Ref: DUNFERMLINE’S NEW PROPOSALS, Dundee Evening Telegraph 11 March 1913, sourced at the British National Archives. They allow you to download the page as a PDF file, and then you can easily enlarge it.

More notes to follow.

Post Edited (Fri 02 Dec 00:44)
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 Re: PARs?
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Thu 1 Dec 23:44

OTHER NOTES FOR MY POST ABOVE (ran out of space)

(1) In the article he mentions the Secretary and Treasurer. I still think he could be the Secretary, or someone of that calibre, who sits at Board meetings, he knows so much insider info. The nickname stuff is only a small bit of it.

(2),(4)& (6) Notice: ‘THE Dunfermline Athletic’, and ‘THE Athletics.’ No need to argue the point about ‘Pars’ v ‘THE Pars’.

(3) ( ‘Atho – letic, as I recall from the 1960s.
It used to go: Atho - leh - tic! Tock! - Ding! - dong!….(etc.)
It’s also in the song/chant, ‘Ath - o - letic, Ath – o – letic, we’ll support you ever more…’ Or, if you like ‘Ath- a -letic’. Same difference, 4 syllables as in paralytic.)

(5) He mentions that ‘strangers may have wondered’ about our nickname, ‘the Pars’. In previous posts I had mistakenly imagined that it was some of our own supporters.

(7) I think he means out of use, redundant.



Post Edited (Fri 02 Dec 00:46)
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 Re: PARs?
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Fri 2 Dec 00:36

Ref: Buspasspar
Date: Thu 1 Dec 19:35

"Superb post and thread istvan .. enjoyed reading all the theories .. onandupthepars has been a star with all the research and time he has donated to the effort .. COYP2

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thank you Buspass. I think everyone who has posted deserves credit. I`ve been engrossed in this for a few days and feeling quite happy in a way I`ve not felt for a long time. I think it was just the sheer fascination of the project and knowing others were clearly engaging in the right spirit, and folk coming up with good ideas, and prompting me to question my own. It felt like being in a team, but more than that, I forgot the world for a few days.

And look at those fab words from our very much appreciated EAST ENDER friend from the past, who has helped us out :

"Let nothing be done in an acrimonious spirit, but let the actions of all be prompted by what will be best for the club, and not for reasons of fault-finding, petty jealousies, or prejudice."

He`s not here any more but what a great epitaph.



Post Edited (Fri 02 Dec 00:54)
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 Re: PARs?
Topic Originator: DBP  
Date:   Fri 2 Dec 10:08

nice one folks... looks like we`ve got to the bottom of the nick-name.

think there`s a few missed careers in investigative analysis mind you! :)


my guess is that if the PARS nickname was established, then it`s not a leap of faith to imagine dock workers from Plymouth playing on those letters to create their own initialism, to both show their support for their home and their newly adopted team

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 Re: PARs?
Topic Originator: istvan kozma  
Date:   Fri 2 Dec 11:08

Wonderful, just wonderful. Think the mystery has been solved. I wondered how Paralytic could tie in but the rhyming with Athaletic makes sense.

KOZMA




Post Edited (Fri 02 Dec 11:17)
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 Re: PARs?
Topic Originator: dd23  
Date:   Fri 2 Dec 11:39

Quote:

DBP, Fri 02 Dec 10:08

nice one folks... looks like we`ve got to the bottom of the nick-name.

think there`s a few missed careers in investigative analysis mind you! :)


my guess is that if the PARS nickname was established, then it`s not a leap of faith to imagine dock workers from Plymouth playing on those letters to create their own initialism, to both show their support for their home and their newly adopted team


That’s a very interesting theory DBP which seems to make perfect sense.
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 Re: PARs?
Topic Originator: parsfan  
Date:   Fri 2 Dec 11:40

Well done guys, great sleuthing.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The universe is ruled by chance and indifference



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 Re: PARs?
Topic Originator: wee eck  
Date:   Fri 2 Dec 11:50

Having established that our nickname probably derives from a word describing a state of drunkenness or physical impairment should we now debate whether it is acceptable in this age of political correctness?

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 Re: PARs?
Topic Originator: fcda  
Date:   Fri 2 Dec 12:14

Thanks for posting Socks.

Having read the full article now I agree that the context gives credibility to the account, however, it is still only one account, so I don`t consider it solved conclusively.

It`s definitely the clearest lead I`ve seen on the subject but it would still be interesting to find earlier references to "pars" to see if they back this up.

I wonder if there is any account of the original paralytic story?

That site does not have any Dunfy Press articles from the time period. It does have The Scotsman, Evening News and Daily Record - but given our lowly (non) league status at the time, it`s not surprising if we don`t feature.

I`d also like to make sense of how you go from "paralytic" to "pars". "Paras" was mentioned earlier but even "paralytic" to "paras" doesn`t seem natural to me and if that was the case, why not stick with "paras"?

Post Edited (Fri 02 Dec 12:17)
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 Re: PARs?
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Fri 2 Dec 12:20

ref: wee eck
Fri 2 Dec 11:50

I think that should be a seperate inquiry Wee Eck. Maybe start a new thread? , because if it takes hold and there`s lots of posts, they could get mixed up with more posts about the history and evidence from the past about the origin of the nickname?

Or what do you think Istvan? Is this thread becoming a bit unwieldy anyway? Start another one: `Re: PARs?` vol.2 ?

Post Edited (Fri 02 Dec 12:26)
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 Re: PARs?
Topic Originator: Par  
Date:   Fri 2 Dec 12:25

Topic Originator: wee eck
Date: Fri 2 Dec 11:50

Having established that our nickname probably derives from a word describing a state of drunkenness or physical impairment should we now debate whether it is acceptable in this age of political correctness?

You could be correct Wee Eck. I also think your username is not politically correct as it could be offensive to shortarses.

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 Re: PARs?
Topic Originator: wee eck  
Date:   Fri 2 Dec 12:34

I didn`t mean to distract attention from this thread which has been fascinating, oautp. Given that we can`t be 100% certain about the origins of our nickname I think we should just stick with it.

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 Re: PARs?
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Fri 2 Dec 12:42

ref: fcda
Date: Fri 2 Dec 12:14

"I`d also like to make sense of how you go from "paralytic" to "pars". "Paras" was mentioned earlier but even "paralytic" to "paras" doesn`t seem natural to me and if that was the case, why not stick with "paras"?"

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There`s a nice similarity here, between a writer or journalist, shortening the word `Paragraphs` to Pars`, (Why is `Paragraphs` not shortened to `Paras`?) I think, in making notes, or in talking about `the Paralytics` to friends, it`d be more natural to me to shorten it to `Pars`.

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 Re: PARs?
Topic Originator: wee eck  
Date:   Fri 2 Dec 12:48

`You could be correct Wee Eck. I also think your username is not politically correct as it could be offensive to shortarses.`

`Shortarses` certainly is!

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 Re: PARs?
Topic Originator: fcda  
Date:   Fri 2 Dec 13:20

Quote:

onandupthepars, Fri 2 Dec 12:42

There`s a nice similarity here, between a writer or journalist, shortening the word `Paragraphs` to Pars`, (Why is `Paragraphs` not shortened to `Paras`?) I think, in making notes, or in talking about `the Paralytics` to friends, it`d be more natural to me to shorten it to `Pars`.


That one was new to me, but a quick Google has it listed on Wikipedia as common journalistic jargon: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/News_style#Paragraphs

Post Edited (Fri 02 Dec 13:41)
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 Re: PARs?
Topic Originator: wee eck  
Date:   Fri 2 Dec 13:29

Maybe `paras` was discounted as it was short for `paratroopers` - or is that a more recent nickname?

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 Re: PARs?
Topic Originator: sammer  
Date:   Fri 2 Dec 13:30

The paralytic derivation was widely assumed to be the case when I first watched The Pars in the 1960s.

But the play on words with Athletic/paralytic could have been applied to other teams like Alloa or Forfar. Maybe the recorded story of our inebriated goalkeeper was the difference.

The shift from paralytic to ‘Pars’ is a slight problem as well. ‘Drunkfermline Athletic’ being shortened to ‘The Drunks’ makes as much sense.

sammer
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 Re: PARs?
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Fri 2 Dec 13:31

On the subject of when `the Paralytics` was first applied to our team, EAST ENDER says only that it was `at one time.`

He writes, `Times are flourishing with the Athletic` and says of the new names put forward for election, would they have sought to be members of the committee, (i.e. Board?) say, five years ago?` (1908)

Also, we won the Scottish Central League in 1909 (1). Seems likely the name is earlier than that.

`Paralytic` you`d think must`ve first been applied to us at a very low time.

There`s the story of our goalie, Slavin, being drunk, (see above: The Roy Barry Fan Club Mon 28 Nov 12:07)

But unless he’d been drunk for years (not impossible!) it seems too late.

There’s a couple of other points: was`paralytic`always connected to the idea of drunkenness? or nearer to the medical term - about immobility?

And might it relate to a lowest point in our history? Or maybe an expression that sums up many years in the doldrums?

It would appear that the ‘Paralytics’ was in use before 1909, but as yet we have no clue as to how long before.

(1) source pending



Post Edited (Fri 02 Dec 14:00)
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 Re: PARs?
Topic Originator: fcda  
Date:   Fri 2 Dec 14:14

Could this be the Slavin game? https://www.britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk/viewer/bl/0000164/19111031/114/0007

DUNFERMLINE F.C. COMMITTEE

... DUNFERMLINE F.C. COMMITTEE AGREE TO CALL SPECIAL MEETING TO CONSIDER THE INCIDENT WHICH OCCURRED DURING THE GAME WITH KIRKCALDY. The committee of the Dunfermline Athletic met last night to consider the unfortunate incident at Saturday`s match. It will ...
Published: Tuesday 31 October 1911
Newspaper: Dundee Courier


I think it could be. Also found this:
https://www.britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk/viewer/bl/0000164/19111030/121/0007

THIRDS HEAVILY DEFEATED

... but probably they took the Rovers too cheaply. ASKED TO RETIRE. CAPTAIN OF DUNFERMLINE TEAM REQUESTS GOALKEEPER TO LEAVE THE FIELD. Saturday was black day for the Dunfermline Athletic. Twice this season the Central League champions visited Kirkcaldy and ...
Published: Monday 30 October 1911
Newspaper: Dundee Courier

And this:

https://www.britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk/viewer/bl/0000475/19111103/080/0008

ABOUT TilK J’LAVKRS

... Shaw, Milne, Thomson and Whvlc. WALKS OFF FIKLD A most unusual incident was witnessed Dunfermline, where Kirkcaldy Cnited were the visitors in the Central League. Slavin, the goalkeeper, in the early stages of the game, was ai.owing soft shots to pass him ...
Published: Friday 03 November 1911
Newspaper: Arbroath Herald

Here`s a search link for the week around the game with other articles:
link

Post Edited (Fri 02 Dec 20:17)
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