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 Scottish Football to Ban Headers...
Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks  
Date:   Mon 28 Nov 10:23

.... the day before and after a match.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-63767548
The game is going to eventually play very different in the future.

And although my eyes were open
They just might as well be closed
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 Re: Scottish Football to Ban Headers...
Topic Originator: Ormiston_Par  
Date:   Mon 28 Nov 13:42

Good. If the science supports it, this will hopefully be a step towards heading of the ball being banned outright.

Come at me.....

The artist formerly known as KGB / Slim Hoolie
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 Re: Scottish Football to Ban Headers...
Topic Originator: jake89  
Date:   Mon 28 Nov 13:48

Seems sensible but banning outright would require it to be adopted across all of football, not just in Scotland.

If be interested in how the research links with other contact sports like rugby, boxing, wrestling etc.
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 Re: Scottish Football to Ban Headers...
Topic Originator: parathletic  
Date:   Mon 28 Nov 13:55

Imagine this will be pretty hard to police.Maybe we should just send the players out with crash helmets on.
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 Re: Scottish Football to Ban Headers...
Topic Originator: DA-go Par Adonis  
Date:   Mon 28 Nov 14:05

I would imagine it would be self-policed fairly effectively.

If I am a footballer, there`s guidance to not head the ball before or after a game, and there are a bunch of ex-players suffering from Alzheimers and MND post-retirement, I don`t think I`d too receptive to my coaching staff if they decide to ignore the recommendation.

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I love it when we go sell Kevin Nisbet,
He's gonna pay for everyone this season.
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 Re: Scottish Football to Ban Headers...
Topic Originator: parathletic  
Date:   Mon 28 Nov 14:32

It`s not about ignoring the recommendation but if a ball is fired towards you at head height it is natural instinct to head the ball rather than jump out the way when you have played the game that way all your life.

I imagine coaching has changed a bit now but I was told plenty times as a youngster that you are far more likely to get injured when pulling out of a challenge.

Some players simply won`t care. Hundreds of bikers continue to turn up at the Isle of Man despite there being fatalities every year and boxers enter the ring up and down the country knowing they are about to be pummelled in the head.

Post Edited (Mon 28 Nov 14:32)
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 Re: Scottish Football to Ban Headers...
Topic Originator: veteraneastender  
Date:   Mon 28 Nov 14:35

"Good. If the science supports it, this will hopefully be a step towards heading of the ball being banned outright.

Come at me....."

In which case the game as we know it would be totally unrecognisable.

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 Re: Scottish Football to Ban Headers...
Topic Originator: DA-go Par Adonis  
Date:   Mon 28 Nov 15:09

"It`s not about ignoring the recommendation but if a ball is fired towards you at head height it is natural instinct to head the ball rather than jump out the way when you have played the game that way all your life."

Two things with that. Firstly, I don`t think anyone is advocating jail time if that happens on the odd occasion. Secondly, indoor 5-a-side has had head height rules for as long as I can remember. It tends not to confuse those playing too much.

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I love it when we go sell Kevin Nisbet,
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 Re: Scottish Football to Ban Headers...
Topic Originator: DBP  
Date:   Mon 28 Nov 15:32

in american football, they`re trying to limit head knocks...

i know they changed the tackling rules regarding head to head challenges, but i also know that in practice they have lots of sessions with no head contact and others where they wear additional padding on top of the helmet - very rarely in training do they actually practice full on (with their helmet on)

i`m sure it would be easy enough to say no headers and to wear one of those rugby headgear things to prevent any instinct/accidental head knocks

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 Re: Scottish Football to Ban Headers...
Topic Originator: EastEndTales  
Date:   Mon 28 Nov 15:34

Footballs are lighter now than they were even 20 years ago though, so hopefully that`s helping too.

Ep. 6 of East End Tales is out now with AUSTIN McCANN! Reminisce with us about the big Fife derby in 2011, otherwise known as BMMMH day!

https://www.buzzsprout.com/1972630/12099928
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 Re: Scottish Football to Ban Headers...
Topic Originator: DA-go Par Adonis  
Date:   Mon 28 Nov 16:02

You would have thought so EET.

However, and I`m relaying this from something I heard (as it isn`t my specialist subject), from a physics perspective: force = speed x mass.

So, as the balls get lighter, the speed of travel has increased, meaning that the force against the head is similar.

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I love it when we go sell Kevin Nisbet,
He's gonna pay for everyone this season.
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 Re: Scottish Football to Ban Headers...
Topic Originator: parathletic  
Date:   Mon 28 Nov 16:23

Heading is also far less common in the modern game which should also help.

Football doesn`t help itself sometimes.In the England v Iran game the Iran keeper got poleaxed by his own player and it was quite clear he was in no state to continue.One of his `team-mates` started skooshing water in his face, they offered him a new jersey without blood and wanted him to continue.Minutes later he was taken off on a stretcher.Then there was a Canada player running about the other night with a tampon up his nose to stop a nose bleed🤦
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 Re: Scottish Football to Ban Headers...
Topic Originator: EastEndTales  
Date:   Mon 28 Nov 16:42

I remember about 1995 I played in the Boys Brigade West Fife league or whatever it was.
We were about 9 years old and they made us play 7 aside games with a full sized football.
I headed it one time and I swear I thought I felt my spine compress and my neck about broke.

Probably explains everything since.

Ep. 6 of East End Tales is out now with AUSTIN McCANN! Reminisce with us about the big Fife derby in 2011, otherwise known as BMMMH day!

https://www.buzzsprout.com/1972630/12099928
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 Re: Scottish Football to Ban Headers...
Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks  
Date:   Mon 28 Nov 16:42

The weight of a football at the start of a match hasn`t changed since 1937.

And although my eyes were open
They just might as well be closed
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 Re: Scottish Football to Ban Headers...
Topic Originator: LochgellyAlbert  
Date:   Mon 28 Nov 17:01

The old footballs were like sponges, probably doubling in weight as the game went on, and don`t get me started about the lace that held the bladder in!🤔🤯
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 Re: Scottish Football to Ban Headers...
Topic Originator: Tad Allagash  
Date:   Mon 28 Nov 19:06

Force is mass x acceleration. Mass x speed is momentum.

But that doesn’t really tell you much about how fast it travels - a ping pong ball won’t travel faster than a golf ball just because it’s lighter.

Looking at old games with water-logged balls ( which could apparently double in weight when wet), the keepers were still able to punt them 70 yards up field so I suspect the speed was similar and the force on your head would be greater than when the ball was dry.

Modern day footballs don’t get water-logged so are hopefully safer.

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 Re: Scottish Football to Ban Headers...
Topic Originator: Ormiston_Par  
Date:   Mon 28 Nov 20:39

In which case the game as we know it would be totally unrecognisable.

Correct. You say that as if it`s a bad thing though?

The artist formerly known as KGB / Slim Hoolie
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 Re: Scottish Football to Ban Headers...
Topic Originator: veteraneastender  
Date:   Mon 28 Nov 21:25

Certainly not a good thing.
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 Re: Scottish Football to Ban Headers...
Topic Originator: P  
Date:   Mon 28 Nov 21:29

Ronaldo seems to have adopted the rule during the game already - while still claiming the goal


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 Re: Scottish Football to Ban Headers...
Topic Originator: sammer  
Date:   Mon 28 Nov 21:41

I expect Ronaldo to claim he deliberately left the ball to fox the keeper.

Footballs have mostly been waterproof since the mid 1950s when the white ball was introduced for floodlight matches. The white coating turned out to be waterproof, so players like Jeff Astle played their professional career heading a white leather ball that stayed the same weight despite the conditions.

With the old brown ball keepers struggled to reach the halfway line with a bye kick, especially when it became soaked. With the white ball they could regularly hit into the opposition centre circle. A long run up was required to do this. The modern ball can be pinged by any goalkeeper well over halfway with barely any run up whatsoever. So if the modern ball is the same weight it must have superball rubber inside and be filled with helium.

sammer
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 Re: Scottish Football to Ban Headers...
Topic Originator: parathletic  
Date:   Mon 28 Nov 21:58

Leather balls were used until the 1980s.Mexico 86 was the first World Cup to use a synthetic ball.They will travel further due to the technological advances.Golf balls are constantly developed to travel further but aren`t any lighter.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/syndication.bleacherreport.com/amp/1663740-how-the-evolving-science-of-ball-design-has-changed-football.amp.html
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 Re: Scottish Football to Ban Headers...
Topic Originator: Ormiston_Par  
Date:   Mon 28 Nov 23:06

Certainly not a good thing.

Protecting footballers from developing a potentially life-ending brain disease isn`t a good thing?

The artist formerly known as KGB / Slim Hoolie
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 Re: Scottish Football to Ban Headers...
Topic Originator: Tad Allagash  
Date:   Mon 28 Nov 23:49

The surface texture of the ball affects its aerodynamics like the dimples on a golf ball or the sand paper Australian cricketers apply to cricket balls. So modern balls may travel further and swerve more without being lighter.

Pat Jennings was able to score from 100 yards against Alex Stepney in the 1967 Charity Shield. I’m not sure what sort of ball that was or whether it was wind assisted.

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 Re: Scottish Football to Ban Headers...
Topic Originator: veteraneastender  
Date:   Tue 29 Nov 09:20

"Protecting footballers from developing a potentially life-ending brain disease isn`t a good thing?"

I`m looking at it from the perspective of how banning the use of the head would alter the nature of the game.

IMO it would become a glorified version of 5 a side.

For example, corner kicks would be as well taken out of the scenario altogether.

It would kill the game as we know it.

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 Re: Scottish Football to Ban Headers...
Topic Originator: EastEndTales  
Date:   Tue 29 Nov 10:09

That`ll never happen.

Ep. 6 of East End Tales is out now with AUSTIN McCANN! Reminisce with us about the big Fife derby in 2011, otherwise known as BMMMH day!

https://www.buzzsprout.com/1972630/12099928
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 Re: Scottish Football to Ban Headers...
Topic Originator: veteraneastender  
Date:   Tue 29 Nov 11:04

"That`ll never happen."

Can`t see it either.

Was thinking back to some prominent Pars games of the past with headed goals.

1961 cup final replay - Dave Thomson`s crucial first goal would not have stood, for example.

1965 cup final - we would have won 2-1.

1968 cup final - one of Pat Gardner`s goals would have been disallowed.

2004 cup final - Andrius Skerla`s header would have been chalked off.

Must be others.

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 Re: Scottish Football to Ban Headers...
Topic Originator: Stanza  
Date:   Tue 29 Nov 11:48

Interesting analysis here of what changes a total ban on heading might bring:

https://youtu.be/uvmfdtw5OTM

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 Re: Scottish Football to Ban Headers...
Topic Originator: Lambo1885  
Date:   Tue 29 Nov 12:54

"2004 cup final - Andrius Skerla`s header would have been chalked off."

Using the same logic, would`ve definetly got a penalty as Balde would`ve either handled or headed the ball. And, therefore Celtic wouldn`t have got their first goal.....

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 Re: Scottish Football to Ban Headers...
Topic Originator: veteraneastender  
Date:   Tue 29 Nov 13:23

Yes - that comes under the “must be others” as suggested.
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 Re: Scottish Football to Ban Headers...
Topic Originator: Digs  
Date:   Tue 29 Nov 13:32

Anyone thinking this is a bad idea comes across as being pretty selfish to me.

As someone who has played football at most levels for most of my life, spending most of it making headed clearances from long balls, a few times having it made me see stars because I misjudged it or several concussions from head knocks, this gives me the absolute fear.

You only need to look at the number of players who have died to see there is clearly a link between head blows, concussions, and brain disease in later life - Jimmy Johnstone, Fernando Ricksen, Jeff Astle, Chris Sutton`s dad, and more recently, Doddie Weir and the Rugby League player whose name escapes me who has also been diagnosed in recent years. This can`t be a coincidence, so doing something about it, however small, is a good thing and prioritising a game over safety is small minded at best.


Stair Maistreas na Beatha
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 Re: Scottish Football to Ban Headers...
Topic Originator: veteraneastender  
Date:   Tue 29 Nov 15:35

Quote:

Digs, Tue 29 Nov 13:32

Anyone thinking this is a bad idea comes across as being pretty selfish to me.

As someone who has played football at most levels for most of my life, spending most of it making headed clearances from long balls, a few times having it made me see stars because I misjudged it or several concussions from head knocks, this gives me the absolute fear.

You only need to look at the number of players who have died to see there is clearly a link between head blows, concussions, and brain disease in later life - Jimmy Johnstone, Fernando Ricksen, Jeff Astle, Chris Sutton`s dad, and more recently, Doddie Weir and the Rugby League player whose name escapes me who has also been diagnosed in recent years. This can`t be a coincidence, so doing something about it, however small, is a good thing and prioritising a game over safety is small minded at best.


Doddie Weir, Fernando Ricksen and Jimmy Johnstone were MND which I believe is a different affliction.

I doubt if Jinky headed the ball much in his career.

It’s not a case of good idea/bad idea - is it a workable idea in practice ?

Post Edited (Tue 29 Nov 16:06)
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 Re: Scottish Football to Ban Headers...
Topic Originator: LochgellyAlbert  
Date:   Tue 29 Nov 18:03

I saw that Gordon McQeen was mentioned the other night, having shown initial signs of the disease.
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 Re: Scottish Football to Ban Headers...
Topic Originator: DBP  
Date:   Tue 29 Nov 18:46

Correct me if I`m wrong, but we`re not banning headers... Just minimising the amount of heading during practice sessions - especially in the run up to and directly after a full match?

Training can easily be adapted to achieve this
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 Re: Scottish Football to Ban Headers...
Topic Originator: veteraneastender  
Date:   Tue 29 Nov 18:48

Two tragic dementia victims.

https://www.pinterest.co.uk/pin/scottish-fa-cup-finals--132363676527519079/

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 Re: Scottish Football to Ban Headers...
Topic Originator: Ormiston_Par  
Date:   Tue 29 Nov 19:50

Quote:

veteraneastender, Tue 29 Nov 09:20

"Protecting footballers from developing a potentially life-ending brain disease isn`t a good thing?"

I`m looking at it from the perspective of how banning the use of the head would alter the nature of the game.

IMO it would become a glorified version of 5 a side.

For example, corner kicks would be as well taken out of the scenario altogether.

It would kill the game as we know it.


But that`s the point isn`t it? The science is beginning to show that the game as we know it is dangerous and putting players` lives at risk.

It`s a question of what`s more important in the grand scheme of things - taking appropriate steps to safeguard players` lives, or consciously, recklessly and selfishly choosing to put them at risk.

In fact, it`s not even a question - it`s a glaringly obvious inevitability. Digs pretty much nails it in his post above - there is no credible reason for anyone to oppose an outright ban on headers, if the science supports it.

The artist formerly known as KGB / Slim Hoolie
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 Re: Scottish Football to Ban Headers...
Topic Originator: parathletic  
Date:   Tue 29 Nov 20:03

Shows you the impact it has with Neco Williams going off for Wales there.Unfortunately even banning headers make that kind of thing unavoidable.
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 Re: Scottish Football to Ban Headers...
Topic Originator: SusieQ  
Date:   Tue 29 Nov 22:25

Rob Burrow is the ex rugby league player, Digs.

He was an absolute star for Leeds Rhinos during their recent successful years and its absolutely heartbreaking to see him now.

Hopefully he can keep fighting for as long as possible.


COME ON YE PARS!
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 Re: Scottish Football to Ban Headers...
Topic Originator: parathletic  
Date:   Tue 29 Nov 22:34

Quote:

SusieQ, Tue 29 Nov 22:25

Rob Burrow is the ex rugby league player, Digs.

He was an absolute star for Leeds Rhinos during their recent successful years and its absolutely heartbreaking to see him now.

Hopefully he can keep fighting for as long as possible.


His ex-team mate Kevin Sinfield completed his 7 ultra marathons in 7 days and had raised over £2 million for MND charities the last I saw, probably more now.An incredible achievement.
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 Re: Scottish Football to Ban Headers...
Topic Originator: PARrot  
Date:   Tue 29 Nov 22:36

Quote:

veteraneastender, Tue 29 Nov 09:20

"Protecting footballers from developing a potentially life-ending brain disease isn`t a good thing?"

I`m looking at it from the perspective of how banning the use of the head would alter the nature of the game.

IMO it would become a glorified version of 5 a side.

For example, corner kicks would be as well taken out of the scenario altogether.

It would kill the game as we know it.


In hockey corners result in lots of goals. Quite exciting to watch. None of them ever header the ball.

.... well not deliberately anyroads 😉



Post Edited (Tue 29 Nov 22:39)
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 Re: Scottish Football to Ban Headers...
Topic Originator: SusieQ  
Date:   Tue 29 Nov 23:03

Quote:

parathletic, Tue 29 Nov 22:34

Quote:

SusieQ, Tue 29 Nov 22:25

Rob Burrow is the ex rugby league player, Digs.

He was an absolute star for Leeds Rhinos during their recent successful years and its absolutely heartbreaking to see him now.

Hopefully he can keep fighting for as long as possible.


His ex-team mate Kevin Sinfield completed his 7 ultra marathons in 7 days and had raised over £2 million for MND charities the last I saw, probably more now.An incredible achievement.


Pretty sure Sinfield has done it more than once which is just incredible.

Not a Leeds fan, but that`s amazing & all to raise charity money for this horrible disease. Just brilliant!


COME ON YE PARS!
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 Re: Scottish Football to Ban Headers...
Topic Originator: Socks  
Date:   Tue 29 Nov 23:05

The post from Digs is interesting. Can I ask, when you were playing and routinely heading away high balls with the effects you describe, did you ever think `maybe I shouldn`t be doing this`? And if the game changed drastically meaning that heading ability wasn`t needed, would you still have wanted to be involved in it?

I don`t mean this to sound like a criticism - it isn`t. However, I feel that if change is to come, it might have to come from those currently playing. Maybe it will come to players in the professional game having to make a judgement as to whether or not they accept the risk because they love playing, or parents deciding whether they allow their kids to get into it from a young age. If most say `no`, then the only way the game will survive is if it does change to the point where people feel the risks are low enough.

I find it difficult because I just cannot imagine what football with no heading would be like. Is it something I`d be interested in watching? I really don`t know. But then, if we get more evidence that it does increase the risk of harm, do those of us who continue to watch football become complicit in causing this harm? I don`t want anyone to suffer afer a life playing football but I just struggle to think how it can change while still being something like football as we know it.

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 Re: Scottish Football to Ban Headers...
Topic Originator: sammer  
Date:   Tue 29 Nov 23:30

I think the change will come gradually through pressure from parents and that eventually the rules will have to recognise this at senior level. Possibly starting with a ban on heading the ball unless it is in the penalty area, which in my opinion would not be a major loss. Watching headers from bye kicks and throw ins is hardly a highlight of any fan`s football experience.

A complete ban would unfortunately remove one of the most thrilling sights in football- one I saw this week when the South Korean striker launched himself over an opponent`s shoulder to bullet home a flying header. But a younger generation will see the game differently; many of them now wince when they see thumping, well-timed tackles from the past which to me were part and parcel of the game.

sammer
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 Re: Scottish Football to Ban Headers...
Topic Originator: LochgellyAlbert  
Date:   Wed 30 Nov 09:36

Will it change?

Kids still go to judo, karate, boxing, kick boxing, even horse riding (with safety helmet) various motocross events.

What`s the fatality rate in those "sports "?
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 Re: Scottish Football to Ban Headers...
Topic Originator: Digs  
Date:   Wed 30 Nov 09:37

Yes, VEE but MND is a degenerative brain and nerve disease, it`s not just about dementia. Jinky may not have been John Charles in terms of how many times he headed the ball but it only takes a few blows to the head to cause long term damage. I watched a video the other day of Jock Stein doing a heading drill with some players and he was in it!

The post from Digs is interesting. Can I ask, when you were playing and routinely heading away high balls with the effects you describe, did you ever think `maybe I shouldn`t be doing this`? And if the game changed drastically meaning that heading ability wasn`t needed, would you still have wanted to be involved in it?

No, not exactly, but i also remember Monday mornings where my forehead was still sore from the weekend, or the many times I ended up with stars when I`d dived in to stick my head in the way of a shot, or had a concussion. Only one time did I actually leave the park and with hindsight there were other times I absolutely should not have continued.

So, whilst I didn`t change at the time, I still play over 35`s and will only very rarely head the ball now and usually only if it`s a light challenge to nod it on, or get a flick on it. If I can take it down on my chest or lay it straight off to a midfielder with my feet, or let it drop behind me and take it on the turn, I`ll absolutely do that.


Stair Maistreas na Beatha
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 Re: Scottish Football to Ban Headers...
Topic Originator: veteraneastender  
Date:   Wed 30 Nov 10:15

"Yes, VEE but MND is a degenerative brain and nerve disease, it`s not just about dementia."

The focus in football is Traumatic Brain Injury (TBI) which is a different study from MND, aka Amyotrophic Lateral Sclerosis (ALS)

Some are now suggesting that the percentage of MND victims that were top level athletes is disproportionate.

The first high profile sports player case of ALS was that of Lou Gehrig in the USA, a researcher now claiming a wrong diagnosis - and being challenged on that finding.

https://www.brainandlife.org/articles/can-head-injury-cause-motor-neuron-disease

The comment that such observations raises more questions than answers seems valid ?

The Jock Stein/Jimmy Johnstone reference is interesting - Big Jock was a typical old fashioned centre half who must have headed the ball innumerable times in his 360 odd senior game career - he tragically passed away from a stress induced heart attack.



Post Edited (Wed 30 Nov 10:18)
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 Re: Scottish Football to Ban Headers...
Topic Originator: parathletic  
Date:   Thu 1 Dec 08:38

https://www.sportbible.com/football/world-cup-balls-charged-up-adidas-20221130

The balls at this World Cup even need charged before play but players are quoted as saying it feels lighter.

https://www.bbc.com/mediacentre/2022/rugby-league-legend-rob-burrow-cbeebies-bedtime-story

Rob Burrows still giving back to others despite his condition-pretty inspiring!

Post Edited (Thu 01 Dec 08:58)
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