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 Pars? Volume 2 - The search narrows
Topic Originator: istvan kozma  
Date:   Fri 2 Dec 16:24

It now seems that the quest to discover the origin of our nickname has narrowed down. Potentially to our drunken goalie in a match against Kirkcaldy back in 1911.

Then so far the earliest mention of pars in an article from 1913. Suggestion that pars derives from paralytic and may link to the previously mentioned match.

Perhaps soon we will unearth a definitive answer as many fans are currently on the case.

All research info so far can be read in the previous Pars? thread.

I'm starting to feel fairly confident that pars is not an acronym but a contraction.

As with many nicknames it may have its origins as a name we were given by fans of another team, and then took ownership of. But that for many will be controversial and needs checked out.

KOZMA




Post Edited (Fri 02 Dec 16:59)
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 Re: Pars? Volume 2 - The search narrows
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Fri 2 Dec 16:35

Smashing Istvan, and well done fcda.

Bearing in mind what EAST ENDER wrote (in 1913):

"Strangers to East End Park have, I believe, often wondered what meaning there was in the war-cry of a section of the home supporters. “Come away the Pars.” The term is an abbreviation of the word “Paralytics”, which at one time an unkind critic had dubbed the Athletics."(1) - (4)

Yes, it could have been an opposition supporter, but again, we must ask - how likely is it to have been received with enough enthusiasm by the home support that they`d want to own it and chant it? - Is it more likely to have come from one of our own?


Refs:

(1) DUNFERMLINE’S NEW PROPOSALS, Dundee Evening Telegraph 11 March 1913, sourced at the British Newspaper Archives (BNA).

(2) DulochConvert Wed 30 Nov 22:56.

(3) red-star-par Wed 30 Nov 23:52. First reference and relevant extract from above article.

(4) onandupthepars Thu 1 Dec 23:34. Longer relevant extract from the original at BNA website.

(5) Socks Thu 1 Dec 22:17 Full copy of the article, from BNA website, but with errors introduced by the electronic process.

--------------------------------------------------------------


ABOUT BNA stuff and HOT-LINKING:

fcda,

I`ve tried hot-linking BNA artcles before. It doesn`t seem to work. Or maybe only if you`ve got a paid subscription? I`m just about to subscribe for a month (£12.99 - got to be worth it.) and then I`ll be looking at the articles you`ve referenced. You`ve given the headlines and the dates and `paper names, so I should be able to get them.

BTW, fcda.

As in your last post on the first thread - and it stretching out very wide - it happened to me and I think the way round it is to break your source and put half of it on the next line. It might not be hot-linked any more, but as I say, hot linking those BNA sources doesn`t work for me anyway; but as long as the other details are given, the article can be found.

Post Edited (Tue 06 Dec 11:42)
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 Re: Pars? Volume 2 - The search narrows
Topic Originator: fcda  
Date:   Fri 2 Dec 20:20

I`ve edited the long link in the original thread - it looked ok in the app 🤷‍♂️

For the other links to work you would need to be subscribed or do the free trial. I haven`t read them, only the excerpts I posted but I thought the links were useful in case anyone does subscribe.
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 Re: Pars? Volume 2 - The search narrows
Topic Originator: The Roy Barry Fan Club  
Date:   Fri 2 Dec 21:17

I have received a note this evening from Gordon Baird in my capacity as Secretary of Dunfermline Athletic Heritage Trust. Many people will know Gordon as a most respected Pars historian, former contributor to the Programme over many years and someone who writes widely on Dunfermline in football history journals across the UK. In my judgement he has a particular expertise in the history of the Club before 1939.

Gordon has much enjoyed the debate about the Pars nickname.

Gordon writes:

“THE PARS”


Like your earlier contributors, I believe that the Evening Telegraph article gives a pretty definitive explanation as to the origins of the club`s nickname – an abbreviation of the word “paralytics”.

Ironically, this was the most common explanation when I started going to East End Park, particularly amongst older supporters, but it somehow lost its currency over the last few decades as other interpretations gained favour. Personally, I always had a soft spot for the “Plymouth Argyle (Rosyth) Supporters” story but could never find a shred of evidence to back it up.
I may be wrong but in years of research I don`t think I`ve come across “the Pars” being used any earlier than around 1911/1912 but even after that it was rare and usually in Dundee-based newspapers rather than Dunfermline. The local papers preferred to use “Dumps” or “East Enders” (a throwback to the days of the rivalry with the Ladysmill-based Dunfermline FC, who were the “South Siders”), a possible reason being that provincial papers such as those in Dunfermline were rather staid and conservative (much like their proprietors/editors) and would never have condescended to use a nickname adopted by the fans, especially one with connotations to alcoholic excess. It was only during the 1920`s that “the Pars” became more commonly used in the Press and the Journal.

There had been a previous attempt to drop the word “Athletic” from the club`s title but the motion was defeated at the 1907 AGM, just a couple of years after the club had narrowly averted financial collapse. The Athletic had joined the Northern League in 1902 but rapidly became disillusioned with it, primarily over the substantial cost of travel and the heavy guarantees required for visiting clubs, and by the summer of 1904 the debt-ridden club was in a desperate state with players and committee members deserting what was rapidly becoming a sinking ship.

The worst financial crisis in the club`s short history was accompanied by disappointing performances on the field, finishing ninth in the thirteen-strong Northern League in 1904/05.

This may have been where the “paralytics” nickname originated but the truth is it could have happened during any poor season since 1885. One certainty is that “the Pars” was being used on the terraces prior to 1909, when the club joined the Central League and went from strength to strength.

To change subject briefly, Dunfermline Violet was a juvenile club based at East End Park but had no official connection to the Athletic. The Violet reached the semi-final of the Scottish Juvenile Cup in 1903/04 and lifted the Fife Cup the following season under the guidance of secretary/manager Willie Knight, who went on to become Pars manager in 1922.

I`ll leave the last word to the journalist “East Ender”, who wrote a follow-up article for the Evening Telegraph a week later:
“Old names and associations are difficult to drop. In football as well as in other circles there is a sentiment which clings to all interested. When I was writing last week, I was inclined to to the conclusion that the club`s title would by this time have been bereft of its tail, but the majority of the members held a different opinion.... there`s nothing in a name, it is said, but the followers have a great regard for the old title of Dunfermline Athletic. It will probably remain for all time. Other clubs may be formed. Any one of them may assume the name of Dunfermline: but early come, best served, and it will be the duty of the Athletic officials to see that the old club will continue always to be the leader of football in the city”.

Post Edited (Fri 02 Dec 21:21)
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 Re: Pars? Volume 2 - The search narrows
Topic Originator: DulochConvert  
Date:   Fri 2 Dec 21:44

FTFY

(2) DulochConvert Wed 30 Nov 22:56. First reference and relevant extract from above article.

😉

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 Re: Pars? Volume 2 - The search narrows
Topic Originator: istvan kozma  
Date:   Fri 2 Dec 22:24

So the match of 1911 is not the origin? And it goes back before 1909? But its definitely from paralytic. Dunfermline Violet winning the Fife Cup, was it their fans that called us paralytic?

KOZMA




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 Re: Pars? Volume 2 - The search narrows
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Fri 2 Dec 23:11

Thank you TRBFC and Gordon Baird for the benefits of the very considerable research work done on this subject.

I`m glad you`ve enjoyed our rustic efforts Gordon.

I wondered if you could give an opinion about who you think EAST ENDER was. Would William Lawson our secretary in 1913 be in the frame?

Also very interesting is that you say, `one certainty is that "the Pars" was being used on the terraces prior to 1909.`

Would it be possible for you to give us a very rough idea of some of the ground you covered with the Dunfermline and Dundee papers?

I was wondering if you would think it might be worth looking at letters to the Press, say in the years from 1904?

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 Re: Pars? Volume 2 - The search narrows
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Fri 2 Dec 23:17

Ref: DulochConvert
Fri 2 Dec 21:44

"FTFY

(2) DulochConvert Wed 30 Nov 22:56. First reference and relevant extract from above article.

😉"

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I think that deserves to be repeated Duloch,
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ref: DulochConvert Wed 30 Nov 22:46

"I just did a search on that website and found this.

The Evening Telegraph and Post Tuesday March 11th 1913

Strangers to East End Park have, I believe often wondered what meaning there was in the war-cry of a section of the home support “come away the Pars”. The term is a abbreviation of the word “Paralytics” which at one time an unkind critic had dubbed the Athletics.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yes, you found that diamond first. Well done. I`ve put you in your rightful place in my post of 2nd Dec, 16: 35.



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 Re: Pars? Volume 2 - The search narrows
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Fri 2 Dec 23:20

Hi fcda,

Your hot-links work for me now I`ve paid my few quid. I`ve read most of them. The Arbroath one though only gives me a page of adverts and deaths, nothing about us there. I think it`s a fault with the BNA.



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 Re: Pars? Volume 2 - The search narrows
Topic Originator: istvan kozma  
Date:   Fri 2 Dec 23:40

Quote:

onandupthepars, Fri 2 Dec 23:20

Hi fcda,

Your hot-links work for me now now I`ve paid my few quid. I`ve read most of them. The Arbroath one though only gives me a pge of adverts and deaths, nothing about us there. I think it`s a fault with the BNA.



I think we`ll have to take up the trail and see where it takes us. It may be tricky because it`s unlikely a paper will report indepth enough on this. And very few, if any people, will know someone who was around at the time that passed on stories 1st hand.

KOZMA




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 Re: Pars? Volume 2 - The search narrows
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Fri 2 Dec 23:43

PARALYSIS and WORDS RELATED TO IT WERE MORE COMMON THEN?

I had clicked on a hot-link given by fcda, for a newspaper article at the BNA.

I started reading the wrong article:

"THIRDS HEAVILY DEFEATED AT KIRKALDY WHERE RAITH SCORE THREE GOALS IN FOUR MINUTES"

‘The sensational shooting of the Raith forwards was really marvellous and no wonder it had a paralysing effect on their opponents.’ (1)

I`ve been thinking that people being paralysed was probably much more common, and words such as paralysis would be more widely used. There were no innoculations for polio and I came across lots of references to people suffering from paralysis as I was looking at newspaper extracts about 1900 - 1913. So I`m still not sure that `Paralytic` referred to being blotto, or more like its medical meaning.


(1) Dundee Courier Mon 30 Oct 1913



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 Re: Pars? Volume 2 - The search narrows
Topic Originator: DulochConvert  
Date:   Fri 2 Dec 23:45

Yeah I paid the month fee, as I was truly interested in looking up the original story. I found this subject truly riveting, as I have previously said and my username shows I am not from fife but moved here almost 10 years ago. Having been brought up in West Lothian which didn’t have a team I grew up just enjoying football.
However 8 years ago initially taking my 6 year old to his first game I didn’t see it happening but we went again the next week and it quickly spiral to us going to 30 games a season and us both being obsessed fans. 37 grounds visited watching the pars at 14 he will definitely be hooked for life.

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 Re: Pars? Volume 2 - The search narrows
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Fri 2 Dec 23:50

That`s fantastic Duloch. What a story. It is riveting reading the old `papers, and of course being a Pars fan generally. 😃

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 Re: Pars? Volume 2 - The search narrows
Topic Originator: Buspasspar  
Date:   Sat 3 Dec 08:19

Well done to all .. a fascinating thread

We are forever shaped by the Children we once were
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 Re: Pars? Volume 2 - The search narrows
Topic Originator: EastEndTales  
Date:   Sat 3 Dec 08:44

I heard that the Dunfermline Violet "Ultras" kept their nickname under a low light.

Ep. 6 of East End Tales is out now with AUSTIN McCANN! Reminisce with us about the big Fife derby in 2011, otherwise known as BMMMH day!

https://www.buzzsprout.com/1972630/12099928
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 Re: Pars? Volume 2 - The search narrows
Topic Originator: DBP  
Date:   Sat 3 Dec 10:53

Quote:

EastEndTales, Sat 3 Dec 08:44

I heard that the Dunfermline Violet "Ultras" kept their nickname under a low light.


🤣🤣🤣
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 Re: Pars? Volume 2 - The search narrows
Topic Originator: Par  
Date:   Sat 3 Dec 11:40

It would be good to rename Legends Paralytic`s

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 Re: Pars? Volume 2 - The search narrows
Topic Originator: Grant  
Date:   Sat 3 Dec 12:13

Quote:

DulochConvert, Fri 2 Dec 23:45

Yeah I paid the month fee, as I was truly interested in looking up the original story. I found this subject truly riveting, as I have previously said and my username shows I am not from fife but moved here almost 10 years ago. Having been brought up in West Lothian which didn’t have a team I grew up just enjoying football.
However 8 years ago initially taking my 6 year old to his first game I didn’t see it happening but we went again the next week and it quickly spiral to us going to 30 games a season and us both being obsessed fans. 37 grounds visited watching the pars at 14 he will definitely be hooked for life.



Anyone who as an adult started following us over the past 8 years, had the option to not come back, and with how poor we`ve been you`d have been forgiven! Just as big a Pars fans as any 👍
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 Re: Pars? Volume 2 - The search narrows
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Sat 3 Dec 14:46

No stone unturned.

I`ve been wrestling with the question - could the origin of `Paralytics` be connected with the Slavin incident?

I think it`s worth looking at. The match report (1) and the report from the committee meeting (2) that followed soon after are riveting.

The match (at EEP:) D.A 4 - Kirkaldy United 7.
Almost from the kick-off, Kirkaldy scored. It was obvious Slavin, in my words: `hadn`t turned up`. He was letting in goals that a child could have stopped. At half time it was 0-5. The report says our captain had to "ask" him to leave the field. We chose to play with ten men. Throughout the match, we played well. (1)

It brought matters to a head. A special meeting was held, just days later. But it wasn`t just about Slavin; more than that, it seems it was about the fans ongoing? treatment of players and committee.

Quote:
"DUNFERMLINE F.C. AFFAIRS. VOTE OF CONFIDENCE IS PASSED IN COMMITTEE."

Our club president, "stated that the committee were not entitled to stand the treatment which had been meted out to them. Certain members and supporters of the club had been guilty of the cowardly action of barracking the players on the field. It was most contemptible and disgraceful. Certain individuals also had been unmanly enough to charge the whole Executive with dealing dishonestly with the finances of the club… The committee felt that the work of the club was being made unbearable… The committee were not tired of the work, but they were tired of hearing slurs flung at them.
Mr William Lawson, the secretary stated that… the things that had been said of them were simply absurd… Mr Thomas Don considered it would be a great mistake if the members of the club were to accept the resignations of the committee…Dr Bell delivered a speech, which raised the enthusiasm of the members, and ultimately the committee received their confidence." (2)

Slavin wasn’t sacked. Reports say he played well in subsequent matches.

Context:
We were top of the league after eight games. We’d won it two years running?(3) Why were the players getting barracked? (Even for that game alone – apart from Slavin, the others played well.) If the nickname relates to that period, it hardly seems to have been a response to poor play. I’ve not found anything else in newspapers that even hints of other drunkenness, or lack of players’ effort, at any time. (Though I’m open to it if any is found.)

If we want to believe that the Slavin incident is connected to the origin, there’s another problem.
I refer again to EAST ENDER in 1913, when he wrote:
‘ Strangers to East End Park have, I believe, often wondered what meaning there was in the war-cry of a section of the home supporters. “Come away the Pars.” The term is an abbreviation of the word “Paralytics”, which at one time an unkind critic had dubbed the Athletics.’ (4)

Would you say, ‘at one time,’ about something that took place within the last two years?

references to follow.



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 Re: Pars? Volume 2 - The search narrows
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Sat 3 Dec 15:01

REFERENCES for my post, above

(1) ASKED TO RETIRE, CAPTAIN OF DUNFERMLINE TEAM REQUESTS GOALKEEPER TO LEAVE THE FIELD, Dundee Courier 30 Oct 1911, accessed at BNA.

(2) DUNFERMLINE F.C. AFFAIRS. VOTE OF CONFIDENCE PASSED IN COMMITTEE, Dundee Courier 2 Nov 1911. accessed at BNA.

(3) (Won the central league two years running: ref. pending.) Top of the league when played the ‘Slavin’ match at the end of: ASKED TO RETIRE, CAPTAIN OF DUNFERMLINE TEAM REQUESTS GOALKEEPER TO LEAVE THE FIELD, Dundee Courier 30 Oct 1911, accessed at BNA.

(4) DUNFERMLINE’S NEW PROPOSALS, Dundee Evening Telegraph 11 March 1913, accessed at BNA.



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 Re: Pars? Volume 2 - The search narrows
Topic Originator: sammer  
Date:   Sat 3 Dec 15:07

The comments made by Gordon Baird are a little confusing.

He states: ‘’I may be wrong but in years of research I don`t think I`ve come across “the Pars” being used any earlier than around 1911/1912.’’

Later he states: ‘’One certainty is that “the Pars” was being used on the terraces prior to 1909, when the club joined the Central League and went from strength to strength.’’

I think he is making a distinction between written historical record and oral history. It would be interesting to know how he is ‘certain’ that the term ‘Pars’ was being used on the terraces by 1909.

sammer
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 Re: Pars? Volume 2 - The search narrows
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Sat 3 Dec 15:15

Ref: Par
Sat 3 Dec 11:40

"It would be good to rename Legends Paralytic`s"

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Nice one, Par. It might be better to rename `the Paralytics` `the Paragons`. Mind you I still wonder if it wasn`t based on humour rather than vitriol.

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 Re: Pars? Volume 2 - The search narrows
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Sat 3 Dec 15:24

I agree Sammer, that he`s pointing out the lack of recorded evidence. The assertion that it was used on the terraces pre-1909, I would think is because of the idea that we must have been a poor excuse for a fitba` team when somebody called us `Paralytics`. But we certainly weren`t that from 1909 onwards.

I`ve had a skim through extracts from papers right back to 1892, and I can`t find any disparaging remarks in them. Not even 1904 or 05, but it`s still early days.

EAST ENDER, attributes `Paralytics` to an `unkind critic.`I`m not sure what to make of that, if it happened outwith his memory, or experience.

I still can`t see how a term born of vitriol would become accepted, but I can imagine it being accepted if there was sarcasm or humour to it.

Take the `Monkey Hangers` I can only imagine that the Hartlepool fans must have been able to see the funny side of it. And its uniqueness, maybe.

Post Edited (Sat 03 Dec 17:02)
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 Re: Pars? Volume 2 - The search narrows
Topic Originator: neils  
Date:   Sat 3 Dec 17:23

This is great! Well done to all, hats off to Duloch , following the Pars through not the best of times.

For the Pars, I`m sticking with the paraletic theory whether it`s disproved or not, a good story if nothing else.

Monkey hangers for Hartlepool, well it was during Napoleonic wars and a French ship was shipwrecked, the only survivor being a monkey. Having never seen one, they hanged the monkey...fair does.. I seem to remember the mascot (a monkey) getting elected onto the council as a joke/protest (he still wore the suit!) And becoming the mayor!

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 Re: Pars? Volume 2 - The search narrows
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Sat 3 Dec 17:52

I didn`t mean to cast doubt on the `Paralytics`, Neils. Only in what spirit did it originate, and I don`t yet feel certain that Slavin had nothing to do with it.

After all, he was `paralytic` I think. And our own history buff found no reference to "the Pars" in print earlier than 1911 (ref Gordon Baird above).

But there are considerations against it - our team doing very well, it seems, (though some ructions going on) and `Paralytics` being a term we were dubbed `at one time` (re EastEnder).

I`m just putting things to whoever of the faithful want to think about them. I think there`s more to be found, if we keep churning things around, sometimes a new thought comes up.

Sometimes it`s by thinking of things against the likely explanation that you knock them out and your likely explanation becomes even more likely.

Regarding Hartlepool, it`s necessary to remain aware that the nickname was adopted much later than Napoleonic times . There was no Hartlepool F.C. then.





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 Re: Pars? Volume 2 - The search narrows
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Sat 3 Dec 18:28

In fact, you`ve just kinda made a point for me, by coming up with a wee diamond yourself, neils.

You`ve spelled it `Paraletic`, and if, in the old days, that`s how some fans thought it was spelled - that`s an exceedingly good fit with `Athaletic,` as someone previously posted, and which I know from experience is the way it is chanted in `Athaletic - Athaletic - we`ll support you evermore!`

I`m not saying the official spelling of `paralytic` changed. Only that, there were probably quite a few folk on the terraces in the old days, as there probably are now, who spelled it `Paraletic.`

So well done. Thank you.



Post Edited (Sat 03 Dec 18:47)
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 Re: Pars? Volume 2 - The search narrows
Topic Originator: Grant  
Date:   Sat 3 Dec 18:58

Why are we Dunfermline Athletic? Why not Dunfermline Town, United, FC etc etc?
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 Re: Pars? Volume 2 - The search narrows
Topic Originator: neils  
Date:   Sat 3 Dec 19:10

One up, that`s how I`ve spelled and pronounce it for some time, maybe it`s an Americanism, or maybe it`s one of those words that has changed over the years, I think it`s American, as it comes up when I type, and my spelling is much worse now I rarely physically write (technology.... although I read a lot no excuse)

Monkey hanger is the name of a citizen of Hartlepool/s the reason it triggered my memory is I can remember them electing as a councillor the club mascot dressed as a monkey, as a protest, he clearly did well, ended up as the mayor!

This is a fascinating thread, very grateful for any info.

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 Re: Pars? Volume 2 - The search narrows
Topic Originator: 68guns  
Date:   Sat 3 Dec 19:13

Monkeyhangers is a name that is given to all residents of hartlepool and not to the football team as such.
H`angus the mascot did stand and was elected as mayor.
The monkey that was washed ashore during the Napoleonic wars was identified as a French spy as residents had never seen a frenchman nor a monkey. Once the story had got out the whole town was labelled as monkey hangers.

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 Re: Pars? Volume 2 - The search narrows
Topic Originator: Keith FJ  
Date:   Sat 3 Dec 22:16

Excellent thread, thank you!

All I would add is that my Dad (90 last Monday), always told me it came from Paralytics, quite feasible he heard it from someone who was around at the beginning of the 20th Century.
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 Re: Pars? Volume 2 - The search narrows
Topic Originator: istvan kozma  
Date:   Sat 3 Dec 22:21

Quote:

Keith FJ, Sat 3 Dec 22:16

Excellent thread, thank you!

All I would add is that my Dad (90 last Monday), always told me it came from Paralytics, quite feasible he heard it from someone who was around at the beginning of the 20th Century.



If your dad is able to shed any more light on this let us know.

KOZMA


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 Re: Pars? Volume 2 - The search narrows
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Sun 4 Dec 00:13

Hi Keith, your dad was born in 1932? When he was young there`d be plenty of folk around that could have been in at the start of the Pars nickname. D`you know if your grandad was a supporter?

It just so happens that before I saw your comment I was working on something I found from the Dunfermline Saturday Press, 27 December 1890. It could be relevant.

Cowdenbeath 10 D.A. 0

"There was a large turnout of spectators, about 300 travelling by special train from Dunfermline...
..."The great defeat... was mainly owing to the defective play of the backs, and the halfs never showed anything like the form they exhibited the previous Saturday. In the forward division, no fault can be found with the brothers Frew, but the rest were never in it... Most of the goals were scored by the [Cowdenbeath] left wingers, who did anything they liked with the Athletic back division.` (1)

That sets the scene, but more telling are the reporter`s comments that followed:

"BACK KICKS"

"At the end of another week, I need hardly mention the fact that Cowdenbeath [surprised?] the Athletic to the tune of 10 goals to 0.
The whole team appeared to me at fault. They evidently were afraid of themselves. The backs were completely outplayed, and the next time they meet if they intend to make such an exhibition of themselves it would be better for all concerned if they lost the train.
The halfs were slow, and they must not tarry on the ball so long. They let the Cowdenbeath take the ball out before them time after time.
A. Bruce was tried in centre, and was a failure. the only forward that played on Saturday was D. Frew...He showed his fearlessness in tackling and kicking, and he gave a lesson to the rest of the division [/our forwards] as to what might be done." [signed:] "OFF-SIDE"(2)

Note, "The whole team appeared to me at fault. They evidently were afraid of themselves."
And, " The halfs [half backs] were slow, and they must not tarry on the ball so long."

I don`t know how many times, in our early history, we suffered such poor play and results, but it strikes me that a reporter such as this might have been, if subjected to a few more debacles, the "unkind critic"(3) who, "at one time," (4) dubbed us `Paralytics.`?



Refs:

(1) & (2) FOOTBALL. COWDENBEATH v DUNFERMLINE ATHLETIC, Dunfermline Saturday Press, page 3, 27 Dec 1890, accessed at BNA.

(3) & (4) DUNFERMLINE’S NEW PROPOSALS, Dundee Evening Telegraph 11 March 1913, accessed at BNA.

Post Edited (Sun 04 Dec 02:35)
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 Re: Pars? Volume 2 - The search narrows
Topic Originator: istvan kozma  
Date:   Sun 4 Dec 08:56

Quote:

onandupthepars, Sun 4 Dec 00:13

Hi Keith, your dad was born in 1932? When he was young there`d be plenty of folk around that could have been in at the start of the Pars nickname. D`you know if your grandad was a supporter?

It just so happens that before I saw your comment I was working on something I found from the Dunfermline Saturday Press, 27 December 1890. It could be relevant.

Cowdenbeath 10 D.A. 0

"There was a large turnout of spectators, about 300 travelling by special train from Dunfermline...
..."The great defeat... was mainly owing to the defective play of the backs, and the halfs never showed anything like the form they exhibited the previous Saturday. In the forward division, no fault can be found with the brothers Frew, but the rest were never in it... Most of the goals were scored by the [Cowdenbeath] left wingers, who did anything they liked with the Athletic back division.` (1)

That sets the scene, but more telling are the reporter`s comments that followed:

"BACK KICKS"

"At the end of another week, I need hardly mention the fact that Cowdenbeath [surprised?] the Athletic to the tune of 10 goals to 0.
The whole team appeared to me at fault. They evidently were afraid of themselves. The backs were completely outplayed, and the next time they meet if they intend to make such an exhibition of themselves it would be better for all concerned if they lost the train.
The halfs were slow, and they must not tarry on the ball so long. They let the Cowdenbeath take the ball out before them time after time.
A. Bruce was tried in centre, and was a failure. the only forward that played on Saturday was D. Frew...He showed his fearlessness in tackling and kicking, and he gave a lesson to the rest of the division [/our forwards] as to what might be done." [signed:] "OFF-SIDE"(2)

Note, "The whole team appeared to me at fault. They evidently were afraid of themselves."
And, " The halfs [half backs] were slow, and they must not tarry on the ball so long."

I don`t know how many times, in our early history, we suffered such poor play and results, but it strikes me that a reporter such as this might have been, if subjected to a few more debacles, the "unkind critic"(3) who, "at one time," (4) dubbed us `Paralytics.`?



Refs:

(1) & (2) FOOTBALL. COWDENBEATH v DUNFERMLINE ATHLETIC, Dunfermline Saturday Press, page 3, 27 Dec 1890, accessed at BNA.

(3) & (4) DUNFERMLINE’S NEW PROPOSALS, Dundee Evening Telegraph 11 March 1913, accessed at BNA.


This feels like you`re on to something. Certainly this makes sense when East Ender refers in 1913 to sometime ago, 1890 would fit that description.

KOZMA


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 Re: Pars? Volume 2 - The search narrows
Topic Originator: istvan kozma  
Date:   Sun 4 Dec 09:09

https://corstorphine.tripod.com/results.htm

This website is an old East Fife website and shows the league tables from season 1903/04. Certainly, we held our own so 'the pars' may well date to the 19th century.

KOZMA




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 Re: Pars? Volume 2 - The search narrows
Topic Originator: fcda  
Date:   Sun 4 Dec 10:18

Does John Hunter`s book have a results section? I think it does. Not sure how far beck it goes but worth checking there.
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 Re: Pars? Volume 2 - The search narrows
Topic Originator: istvan kozma  
Date:   Sun 4 Dec 12:25

Quote:

fcda, Sun 4 Dec 10:18

Does John Hunter`s book have a results section? I think it does. Not sure how far beck it goes but worth checking there.


Is it only available to buy from the club shop?

KOZMA


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 Re: Pars? Volume 2 - The search narrows
Topic Originator: istvan kozma  
Date:   Sun 4 Dec 12:26

Quote:

fcda, Sun 4 Dec 10:18

Does John Hunter`s book have a results section? I think it does. Not sure how far beck it goes but worth checking there.


Is it only available to buy from the club shop? Saw it on amazon for 18 sheets!

KOZMA


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 Re: Pars? Volume 2 - The search narrows
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Sun 4 Dec 12:44

Well done Istvan. These reporters / correspondents of old, `EASTENDER and OFF-SIDE - who were evidently just as keen supporters as we are - are a delight to `meet`, in the old `papers.

Seems to me with their wit and pithy comments they could have fitted very well on this forum. OFF-SIDE, in particular, seems like just the sort of wit who might at some point have called us `Paralytics.`

And when I`m reading them, thinking of nothing but what they`re writing about, and aware that it`s the club and the team that moves them to write their words of ridicule and frustration, advice and concern, it`s like the years disappear and there`s no distance between us.

Once a Par (or Athaletic,) always a Par. It just struck me there - that there are so many of the old teams who were referred to as `Athletic`* - maybe some of our fans were, (even if not consciously,) eager to have a unique nickname of our own. Well they did it and we`re grateful.

I`ve got some more `delicacies` to add from OFF-SIDE, but got to take my wife out for our regular Sunday lunch.


*(Leith Athletic is another from those days. And sometimes the sports column is headed `Athletics` - but covers everything - it was synonomous with the word `Sport`. )

Post Edited (Sun 04 Dec 12:51)
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 Re: Pars? Volume 2 - The search narrows
Topic Originator: red-star-par  
Date:   Sun 4 Dec 13:12

Really interesting thread this, well done to all involved. I wonder if the name might have even been coined by other clubs in Dunfermline at the time, maybe the split from the Cricket Club or local rivalry with other Dunfermline teams, the Athletic part of the name would be what they would give them a bit ribbing about, and not a great leap to imagine the players of a club formed in The Old Inn liked a drink

From the article on this site

"PARS THE NICKNAME Excerpt from �Black and White Magic� by Jim Paterson and Douglas Scott.

There are numerous theories as to the origin of the nickname the Pars. Most tend to confirm the more common belief that the name arose from the team�s parallel striped shirts, their drinking habits or their style of play. The latter were both described as �paralytic�. The earliest theory claims that in the early days when the Football Club was closely connected with the Cricket Club, the footballers were renowned for their performances at the bar and so were called the �Paralytics�.

However in the early 1900s it is known that Athletic�s nickname was the�Dumps� - shortened from Dunfermline- and this is said to have been coined by English sailors visiting East End Park when their ship docked at Rosyth. After the 1914-18 War they were known as the Pars and some believe the parallel black and white stripes to be the reason.

Another school of thought involves English workers who came to work at the armaments depot at Crombie and at Rosyth Dockyard; they kept their association with their local team by forming the Plymouth Argyle (Rosyth) Supporters Club and it is said that the Dunfermline nickname comes from the banners in evidence around the ground.

The majority of present day supporters consider the name Pars to be a derivative of the shout �Paralytics� which has been the cry from the terracings during the all to often spells of indifferent form. Others have suggested that Athletic were a very physical team and �paralysed� their opponents by virtue of their rough play.

No matter which may be the correct reason for the Pars, each theory has its exponents who are convinced that theirs is right. Few seem to agree and some solutions sound decidedly fishy - like the suggestion that the team were named after young salmon - parr- which have black and white stripes. What is clear though is that the nickname has borne the test of time and vastly changing fortunes.

Ally Cook"
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 Re: Pars? Volume 2 - The search narrows
Topic Originator: istvan kozma  
Date:   Sun 4 Dec 13:27

In 1890 we are still referred to as the Athletic. Source Dunfermline Journal April 26th 1890

KOZMA




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 Re: Pars? Volume 2 - The search narrows
Topic Originator: parathletic  
Date:   Sun 4 Dec 13:48

Quote:

istvan kozma, Sun 4 Dec 12:26

Quote:

fcda, Sun 4 Dec 10:18

Does John Hunter`s book have a results section? I think it does. Not sure how far beck it goes but worth checking there.


Is it only available to buy from the club shop? Saw it on amazon for 18 sheets!


I have an old copy that you would be welcome to.
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 Re: Pars? Volume 2 - The search narrows
Topic Originator: buffy  
Date:   Sun 4 Dec 15:05

I love this thread.

”Buffy’s Buns are the finest in Fife”, J. Spence 2019”
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 Re: Pars? Volume 2 - The search narrows
Topic Originator: istvan kozma  
Date:   Sun 4 Dec 15:16

Quote:

parathletic, Sun 4 Dec 13:48

Quote:

istvan kozma, Sun 4 Dec 12:26

Quote:

fcda, Sun 4 Dec 10:18

Does John Hunter`s book have a results section? I think it does. Not sure how far beck it goes but worth checking there.


Is it only available to buy from the club shop? Saw it on amazon for 18 sheets!


I have an old copy that you would be welcome to.


Unfortunately I get the impression it doesn`t shed any definitive light on the origin of our nickname.

KOZMA


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 Re: Pars? Volume 2 - The search narrows
Topic Originator: istvan kozma  
Date:   Sun 4 Dec 15:18

Old newspapers don`t appear to indulge fans nicknames. Choosing to refer to us simply as the Athletics. No reference to pars or paralytics. It`s becoming a great challenge!

KOZMA




Post Edited (Sun 04 Dec 15:18)
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 Re: Pars? Volume 2 - The search narrows
Topic Originator: Keith FJ  
Date:   Sun 4 Dec 20:52

Quote:

istvan kozma, Sat 3 Dec 22:21

Quote:

Keith FJ, Sat 3 Dec 22:16

Excellent thread, thank you!

All I would add is that my Dad (90 last Monday), always told me it came from Paralytics, quite feasible he heard it from someone who was around at the beginning of the 20th Century.



If your dad is able to shed any more light on this let us know.


Dad`s been following the thread with interest.

A specific thing he remembers, was a train journey to Cowdenbeath, for the ne`er day game, from Dunfermline Upper just after the war. There were loads of old lads in the carriage, saying something like "Ath-a-letic? More like Par-a-letic right enough.", which tends to suggest the play on words which others have suggested above.

[Edited] I should add that this explanation was being talked about in the context that everyone "knew" that was what Pars meant, rather than someone coming up with it at that moment.

Sorry can`t offer any more documentary evidence though.

All the best,

Keith FJ

Post Edited (Mon 05 Dec 09:36)
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 Re: Pars? Volume 2 - The search narrows
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Mon 5 Dec 03:22

Hi Keith, and a warm welcome to your Dad,

Funny you should mention Ne`er day, because just hours before I read your post, I had the idea that it might have been during a Hogmanay game that the nickname was likely to have come into someone’s mind. Being as there was a lot of nips in the air and no’ just from the cold! I’m looking for evidence that, by 1913, (or preferably by 1890) the word `paralytic` meant very drunk. If anyone can help with that, I`d be very grateful.

Since I`m stuck on that for now, you might be interested in some of the things I discovered in the meantime.

What really caught my eye was this, by`OFF-SIDE`; who wrote (20 December 1890):
"The greatest surprise of all on Saturday night was the Athletic 4 goals, Camerons 0. Everybody seemed to think it was a mistake, and would not believe it until the "pink" arrived" (1)*

What it says to me is that, being so ready to believe we’d lost 4-0 to Cameron Highlanders, it seems we had a pretty low opinion of our team.

On the strength of our win at Camerons, ‘OFF-SIDE’ thought we could beat Cowdenbeath the following week(2). It suggests to me that Cowdenbeath weren’t a fantastic team at the time, and if they weren’t, the fact that they beat us ten nil (3), seems to emphasize how poor we were.

However, a few days later, on New Year’s Day at EEP, we beat Dykebar 2-1, although "during the first half the Dykebar had most of the play," and in the second half "evidence was given of [their] superior training." (4) & (5).
I’m not sure if there were any other games before we lost 4-0 to the other Dunfermline team (6).

I noticed we won a few games early in 1891 - we may have started to pick up then - so my next move will probably be to start going back through 1890 and look for an explanation of why everyone was so surprised that we beat the Cameron Highlanders.


*I think I remember the old pink `papers that contained results in the STOP PRESS? Maybe it was before the `Green Final came into being?

(By the way, BNA searchers: some of the results in the `papers are our Reserves but it`s not always obvious.)

----------------------------


Refs: All accessed at the British Newspaper Archive website:

(1) &(2) BACK KICKS Dunfermline Saturday Press, 20 Dec 1890, p.3. column 2.

(3) FOOTBALL. COWDENBEATH v DUNFERMLINE ATHLETIC Dunfermline Saturday Press, 27 Dec 1890, p.3 column 2.

(4) FOOTBALL MATCHES. DYKEBAR v DUNFERMLINE ATHLETIC Dunfermline Saturday Press, 3 Jan 1891, p.2, column 7.

(5) ATHLETIC NOTES FOOTBALL. YESTERDAY`S MATCHES Dundee Evening Telegraph 2 Jan 1891, p. 3, column 7.

(6) ATHLETIC NOTES. FOOTBALL ‘Dunfermline beat the Athletic of the same name by four goals to nil,’ Dundee Evening Telegraph, 12 Jan 1891, p.3, last column.



Post Edited (Mon 05 Dec 17:53)
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 Re: Pars? Volume 2 - The search narrows
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Mon 5 Dec 12:34

I`m on the trail. When we were first called `Paralytics`, did it mean as it does now - drunks?

As I mentioned, the idea of paralysis was probably more common then, being as there was no polio vaccine, and I`ve come across quite a few references to `paralytic stroke,` which left folk with impaired mobility.

But, leaving aside the medical terms, we`re familiar with "paralytic," meaning `drunk as a skunk`, or `oot the game.` And it seems more likely that`s how the fans of old knew it, but how far back do published records of that meaning go?

Here`s a reference from 1843: "We recommend the paraletic Commander-in-Chief,...not to be seen too often coming home from the ‘little house under the hill’, in Liverpool-street."(1)

Note the spelling, `paraletic`.

Unfortunately that`s from an Australian magazine. Another from Oz, in 1891 was: "This friend was paralytic drunk." (2)

Of British sources, the earliest I`ve got so far is 1909. But it`s well known that words are often in common use long before they get into print (3). Here is the quote as I received it from a librarian:

"Mr. Hackwood...[inquires] ...who was the first man..paralatic (a term I have from Ireland), sewed up, nappy, flush, glorious—effectively and effectually drunk."(4)

I hope to get the earliest Scottish record soon.

I think it`s reasonable to assume that "paralytic" - meaning drunk - was in common use before our fans gave us the nickname.

How did some bright spark come to it?

Well, sometimes we say of our team, they are `incapable of stringing more than two passes together`, or `incapable of playing as a team.` If someone back then used the word `incapable`, it might automatically associate with `drunk and incapable`(5), (a commonly committed offence often reported in the`papers,) and from that, the inspiration for: "Come away "the Paralytics!"

I prefer the easy route. At or about New Year, and they`re playing like drunks.

------------------

Refs :

(1), (2) & (4) provided by Temple University Libraries PA @ https://answers.library.temple.edu/

(1) Satirist & Sporting Chronicle (Sydney) 25 March. 2/4
(2) Truth (Sydney) 10 May 1891. 3/3
(4) Daily Chronicle (London) 18 Sept 3/1

(3) Dates in the Merriam-Webster.com Dictionary
https://www.merriam-webster.com/help/explanatory-notes/dict-dates

(5) LOCAL INTELLIGENCE… DRUNK AND INCAPABLE “… labourer in Dunfermline… sentenced to pay 5s, or 24 hours’ imprisonment, for being drunk and incapable while on the streets.” Close to football items on the same page: DUNFERMLINE FOOTBALL CLUB FIXTURES 1881-82. (Not Dunfermline Athletic) Dunfermline Saturday Press, 10 Sep 1881, p.2 columns 2 & 4. Accessed at BNA website.

Post Edited (Mon 05 Dec 19:39)
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 Re: Pars? Volume 2 - The search narrows
Topic Originator: fcda  
Date:   Mon 5 Dec 16:35

On BNA, there are various references to "paralytic drunk" from 1866 onwards in articles on court cases in England.

The earliest ones I can find in Scotland are from 1898, which might be national stories relating to court cases in England.

One reference in the Forfar Herald to case in Greenock in 1899 (link):

... drawn. Giving evidence in the Greenock Court the other day a native said that the accused had some drink, but he was not paralytic drunk, and therefore he was sober. Boys of Alloa district are practising swear words to qualify themselves for acting as caddies ...
Published: Friday 31 March 1899
Newspaper: Forfar Herald

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 Re: Pars? Volume 2 - The search narrows
Topic Originator: istvan kozma  
Date:   Mon 5 Dec 17:58

We simply need to find who, at one time, was the unkind critic who dubbed us the paralytics! Must be a journalist who was allowed a bit of freedom to give their own opinion. Doesn't seem like they were quoting others.


One thing the article from East Ender stated was the word 'paralytics', so this is the spelling we have to follow.

KOZMA




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 Re: Pars? Volume 2 - The search narrows
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Mon 5 Dec 18:23

Fantastic, fcda!

Got it:

Forfar Herald, page 4, column 4, near the top. Just as you`ve quoted - in 1899 a record of `paralytic drunk.`

I did some searching for it, but you`ve got the nack. Any tips for searching?

Do you know that - besides bookmarking your favourite pages - a record, or `history` is made of pages you`ve looked at automatically. To see it, you just click on "Saved" (seems even if you haven`t saved any,) then, on the left menu, click "Viewed articles."

You may know that already, but I`ve only been subscribed for 2 or 3 days and got plenty to learn about more efficient searching. And I`m sure I`m not the only one would appreciate relevant tips. (BTW, if any others can help with tips on how to do research more effectively, I`m open.)

Well, I better just saddle up and keep moving on along this glorious trail...



Post Edited (Mon 05 Dec 19:16)
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 Re: Pars? Volume 2 - The search narrows
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Mon 5 Dec 18:36

That`s about it, Istvan. Are you following a particular line of inquiry?

I`ve started to think Hogmanay matches might be worth going through. I`m still wondering if between New Year 1889 and a little after the Cowdenbeath drubbing was a very poor time for us.

"Unkind critic" does suggest someone who writes the report and gives their judgement after a match. Probably best to start with that angle. Preferably a Pars fan, who`s heart is with the club, is well respected by the fans and has a sense of humour. Someone like "OFF-SIDE." That`s my suspect profile. Aye, probably a four foot six Chinaman wi`a limp. 🙂

Post Edited (Mon 05 Dec 21:53)
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 Re: Pars? Volume 2 - The search narrows
Topic Originator: istvan kozma  
Date:   Mon 5 Dec 19:16

No particular angle yet. But I`ll keep searching around new year matches.

KOZMA


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 Re: Pars? Volume 2 - The search narrows
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Tue 6 Dec 13:20

Got some more evidence that the word `Paralytic` was then, as now, in common use meaning very drunk. These references appear to show that the association needn`t be a slur on people who suffered paralysis, but a humorous reference to drunkards found lying in the street, who tried to wangle out of being charged by saying they`d had a `paralytic shock`. (The nerve!😮😆) First two extracts from 1886:

“Thomas Webster, seaman,… was charged with being drunk and incapable. He pleaded not guilty, and explained that he was taken suddenly ill, and that it was like a paralytic shock. A constable deponed that about half past eleven o’clock last night he was discovered accused drunk and lying in Barrack Road [Dundee]. While conveying him to the office, prisoner asked for a cab to take him home. He was fined 5s., with the option of twenty-four hours in jail.” (1)

Also, same incident:

“Thomas Webster…was charged with having been found incapably drunk… Thomas denied the charge… and said he was struck with a paralytic shock on one side, and was lying helpless when the police found him…Evidence was then led, when a constable deposed… He was able to speak a little, but he never heard him say anything about a shock of paralysis. (Laughter.) Mr Dewar [prosecution?] – Was he the worse for drink? Witness – He was smelling strongly of liquor. Another constable corroborated. The Bailie found the paralytic sailor guilty of drunkenness, & fined him…[etc.]”

Laughter in the court!

So there you have it -a journalist in a Dundee ‘paper describing someone who was convicted of being drunk and incapable as a ‘paralytic sailor.’

There is also an earlier reference, to a ‘paralytic sot’; sot meaning a habitual drunkard. (It is in an article concerned with licensing Laws.)
“… it is quite legal for him [a publican] to sell a last drop more to a paralytic sot…”(3)
All credit for providing these three items goes to Kristina De Voe, English & Communication Librarian, at Temple University PA.

By the way I`ve emailed her to ask if she can help us get to the origin of our nickname.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(1)
"DUNDEE POLICE COURT." Dundee Courier, 18 Nov. 1886. British Library Newspapers, link.gale.com/apps/ doc/R3209628979/BNCN?u=temple_main&sid=bookmark-BNCN&xid=b33b6e57. Accessed 5 Dec. 2022.

(2)
"DUNDEE POLICE COURT." Dundee Courier, 18 Nov. 1886. British Library Newspapers, link.gale.com/apps/
doc/R3209628979/BNCN?u=temple_main&sid=bookmark-BNCN&xid=b33b6e57. Accessed 5 Dec. 2022.

(3)
“TOWN COUNCIL PROCEEDINGS: TUESDAY, FEBRUARY 15” The Scotsman, p.3, column 3, a little above half-way down.

Post Edited (Wed 21 Dec 11:40)
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 Re: Pars? Volume 2 - The search narrows
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Tue 6 Dec 14:17

I think it`s possible now to see why our supporters adopted `The Paralytics` - for a laugh!

Someone may have called us it as an insult, but oor fans loved it.

As to who called us it, possibly:

a) a reporter

b) someone in a letter to the Press

c) someone from a rival team, e.g. Dunfermline FC or Cowdenbeath (maybe while they were beating us ten nil!)

d) one of our own loud fans at a match


I lean towards c) and d).

Regarding EAST ENDER`s `Unkind critic`: he maybe wrote that wi` a smile on his face.

Wouldn`t it be great if it relates to a bunch of our supporters who were in court on a charge of being drunk and incapable. There`d probably be a record of that. (Och a canny help it, it`s ma brain 🙂)

Post Edited (Wed 21 Dec 11:28)
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 Re: Pars? Volume 2 - The search narrows
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Tue 6 Dec 16:07

Here`s a better scenario for possibly how it happened:

Just imagine, we`re losing at home - it`s 2, then 3 nil to Cowdenbeath. Oor fans hopes are being dashed again. We thought we had a chance o` winnin`this match. It`s 4 nil. After the Cowdenbeath fans have had their goal celebrations, the Athletic fans are silent. There`s a deathly hush around the ground. Til one of ours shouts out:

" Come away the Atha-letics!"

Response: "More like Paraletics!"

5 nil, 6 nil...

`Feckin` hell. Dinny ken aboot the Atha-letics the day - we are the Paraletics` (and in the spirit of - If ye dinny laugh ye`ll cry) - he starts clapping and chanting, and his pals all join in:

"Paraletics! Paraletics! We`ll support you evermore!" 7 nil "We`ll support you evermore! 8 nil, 9 nil 10 nil.

Then next day at work, `Humiliation? What d`ye mean? A few lucky goals. They`ll no` be sae lucky next time...`

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

it reminds me of the match when Scotland were 5 nil down to Portugal. Ally McCoist broke his leg, and the Scottish fans were singing,

"Sco-tland, na-na-na-na Sco-tland!
We`ll walk a million miles
For one o` your goals
Oh Sco-tland!

As I say whenever I tell that story - that`s what the Scotland fans were like then (and before it) - it`s that mentality of never giving up on the team.

So what does it matter if our nickname suggests we wereny any good at fitba` at the time - it`s the never say die, through thick and thin attitude o` the supporters that it represents - and that`s maybe why they loved it even then.



Post Edited (Tue 06 Dec 18:20)
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 Re: Pars? Volume 2 - The search narrows
Topic Originator: wee eck  
Date:   Tue 6 Dec 18:09

Quote -

`All credit for providing these three items goes to Kristina De Voe, English & Communication Librarian, at Temple University PA.

By the way I`ve emailed her to ask if she can help us get to the origin of our nickname.`

You`ve got someone in Pennsylvania working on this, onandupthepars?!!!

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 Re: Pars? Volume 2 - The search narrows
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Tue 6 Dec 18:35

That`s right, wee eck. I found it on the Net. Some o` these places - National Libraries and such, will do a wee bit research for you, I`m maybe asking for too much! We`ll see. But as you can see from the sources, she has access to the British Libarary, which I don`t have.

I`ve got a wee thing in my head at the moment. Didn`t Andrew Carnegie live in PA? Wouldn`t it be fitting if they could solve the mystery?

I`ve just looked it up. Pennsylvania was very significant to Andrew Carnegie. As were Libraries, and they`ve got a Carnegie Library in Pittsburgh PA, so I think I`m going to email them again, they might like to know those things. D`you think I should send Kind Regards from supporters of DAFC, and the Heritage Trust?

Post Edited (Tue 06 Dec 18:38)
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 Re: Pars? Volume 2 - The search narrows
Topic Originator: wee eck  
Date:   Tue 6 Dec 18:37

I`d milk the Carnegie connection. The Yanks love a bit of history.

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 Re: Pars? Volume 2 - The search narrows
Topic Originator: buffy  
Date:   Tue 6 Dec 18:39

Friends from Minnesota were over 3 years ago and Mither and I took them round all the Carnegie bits and pieces in toon. They loved it.

”Buffy’s Buns are the finest in Fife”, J. Spence 2019”
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 Re: Pars? Volume 2 - The search narrows
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Tue 6 Dec 18:40

Wee Eck -
They`re excellent at their work that`s for sure.

Post Edited (Tue 06 Dec 18:40)
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 Re: Pars? Volume 2 - The search narrows
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Tue 6 Dec 18:42

Shall I tell them oor beloved "pink yin" and her Mither love Minnesota?😊😙

Post Edited (Tue 06 Dec 18:49)
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 Re: Pars? Volume 2 - The search narrows
Topic Originator: buffy  
Date:   Tue 6 Dec 18:55

Absolutely 😂

My first job leaving DHS in ‘85 was with the Carnegie Hero Fund Trust 😊

”Buffy’s Buns are the finest in Fife”, J. Spence 2019”
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 Re: Pars? Volume 2 - The search narrows
Topic Originator: wee eck  
Date:   Tue 6 Dec 19:01

She might be impressed if you tell her Andrew Carnegie bought Skibo Castle in the Highlands.

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 Re: Pars? Volume 2 - The search narrows
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Tue 6 Dec 20:17

Wow - that`s really somethin` Buffy. Well anyone can buy a Castle Eck!

Yeh I`d be impressed if I was a Philadelphian - I`m impressed anyway - to know that you worked for the Carnegie Hero Fund Trust with its connection to Pittsburgh. I haven`t emailed them yet, I`d like to put that in. Could I say that - one of our match day commentators worked for the Carnegie Hero Trust (as you will know, started in response to the Harwick Colliery disaster.) (1)

(For us that didny ken - it was near where A.C. lived in Pittsburgh.)

(1) https://www.carnegieherofundtrust.org/

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 Re: Pars? Volume 2 - The search narrows
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Tue 6 Dec 20:44

I`m a bit confused. Any Andrew Carnegie boffins?

Did he live and work in Philadelphia? (I read his excellent book but it was about 35 years ago.)

I`d better get it right, if I`m going to email the research people in Philadelphia again.

I know he worked at Pittsburgh for the Pennsylvania Railroad Company. Its HQ was in Philadelphia (1). Looks like I made a wrong assumption. (It`s a` these long words that begin wi` P. I`ve got P-word overload.)

Apart from their Carnegie libraries, and that he worked (in Pittsburgh?) for the Pennsylvania Railway Co., is there any other connection between us/ Andrew Carnegie - and Philadelphians?


(1) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pennsylvania_Railroad

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 Re: Pars? Volume 2 - The search narrows
Topic Originator: buffy  
Date:   Tue 6 Dec 21:00

I think they may already know …. their former chairman is COW’s official match reporter. We’re aw joined at the hip 😂

”Buffy’s Buns are the finest in Fife”, J. Spence 2019”
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 Re: Pars? Volume 2 - The search narrows
Topic Originator: wee eck  
Date:   Tue 6 Dec 21:00

His family emigrated to Pittsburgh and that`s where he founded the steel company that became the Carnegie Corporation. Don`t forget we`ve got a Carnegie Hall just like NY.

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 Re: Pars? Volume 2 - The search narrows
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Tue 6 Dec 22:41

Ref: buffy
Tue 6 Dec 21:00

I think they may already know …. their former chairman is COW’s official match reporter. We’re aw joined at the hip 😂

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well life never ceases tae amaze me! Well done you and the former chairman of the Carnegie Hero Fund Trust who is now COW`s official match reporter. It deserves a plug.

Mind, I`m glad we had this wee discussion for another reason as well - I just found out that Pittsburgh is aboot 300 miles fae Philadelphia. Or aboot fae Dunfermline tae Orkney. Still I might be able tae mention Carnegie and the Carnegie libraries - Philadelphia`s got loads o` them (1) - withoot seemin` like too much o` a sook.

(1) https://philadelphiaencyclopedia.org/essays/carnegie-libraries/

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 Re: Pars? Volume 2 - The search narrows
Topic Originator: The Roy Barry Fan Club  
Date:   Tue 6 Dec 23:14

I have received a further note from Gordon Baird this evening. Makes interesting reading and is based on Gordon`s extensive research of the early years of Dunfermline Athletic.

Gordon writes:

Replying to a few of the questions asked by onandupthepars:

Club secretary Willie Lawson couldn`t have been the Evening Telegraph`s “East Ender” as he emigrated to Australia in June 1912.
As “East Ender” attended the AGM I reckon it was a well-connected club member rather than one of the committee. Given his style of writing, he could well have been a local journalist.

I`ve spent some time recently researching the club`s Northern League era, from 1902 to 1909, and I haven`t come across a single mention of “the Pars” in any of the available papers.

I`d agree that the use of the word “paralytics” was in jest, much as Cowdenbeath fans changed their club`s nickname to the “Blue Brazil”. When I started going to East End regularly, back in the `70`s, even my mother would ask why I bothered, saying “Athletic? Paraletic, more like”.

As for the Maurice Slavin incident, it`s interesting because of the time frame but also because none of the papers (as far as I can recall) actually said directly that he was drunk. In the Journal`s case, this may have been because the owner/editor was involved with the temperance movement, which again would seem to preclude the use of the word “paralytic” or even “Pars” in that paper (until, perhaps, the origin had been forgotten?)

Other examples can be found of papers alluding to players having drunk too much, or been suffering from hangovers, particularly around Hogmanay. After an Athletic Juniors match in 1898 the Dunfermline Press complained that “it was all too apparent that players of both teams had enjoyed the festivities a bit too much”.

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 Re: Pars? Volume 2 - The search narrows
Topic Originator: sammer  
Date:   Wed 7 Dec 00:00


Evidence of the popularity of the Temperance Movement in Dundee around 1920. The winning candidate in the General Election took a couple of big scalps.

Edwin Scrymgeour (Scottish Prohibition) 32,578

Winston Churchill (National Liberal) 20,466

Willie Gallacher (Communist) 5,906

sammer
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 Re: Pars? Volume 2 - The search narrows
Topic Originator: buffy  
Date:   Wed 7 Dec 01:19

OnAndUp the former CT chairman is Douglas Scott ~ he’s been the club’s official match reporter for donkeys years 😂.

”Buffy’s Buns are the finest in Fife”, J. Spence 2019”
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 Re: Pars? Volume 2 - The search narrows
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Wed 7 Dec 02:04

The Roy Barry Fan Club and Gordon Baird,

Thank you for your fascinating responses again.

Regarding the lack of any record of “the Pars” from 1902 to 1909, I wondered about the significance of East Ender’s reference to it being part of the “war-cry” of (only) “a section” of the home supporters” (1). It suggested to me that perhaps “the Pars” was a popular nickname among a particular group in the crowd and that it may have originated with them, or been taken up by them, as you say, in jest. According to East Ender, "Paralytics" was applied to us "at one time", i.e. quite a long time ago? Yet, when he was writing in 1913, it seemed it was the "war-cry" of only a section of the crowd.

Can there be any doubt that our nickname, ‘the Athaletic’, survived? Is it not popular even now? It would seem unlikely that ”the Paralytics” (or”Paraletics”) and “the Pars” would take the place of the common, well established nickname(s), particularly among supporters who were in at the beginning of the Athletic. After all, “Athletic” had distinguished us, in 1885, from the club we had nothing to do with any more, and remained a significant part of our identity.

As for “the Pars” - could it have remained part of a chant of only a section of the crowd - the `in crowd` - for years? Perhaps until the PARS banners from Rosyth gave it a significant boost in popularity?

Might journalists who covered our matches – the likes of ‘East Ender’ and ‘Off-Side’, have been of a certain age, and stuck to the old nickname(s)? Or perhaps, even if a younger journalist was sent to cover a match, the Editor saw to it that an established nickname was used. Perhaps they were pandering to an older readership? Newspaper match reports and comments tended to be syndicated, ours may often have been written by Dunfermline Athletic-supporting journalists; in any case journalists would be likely to stick to nickname(s) that were established and widely known?

I expect you have thought of most, or all, of these things. Your opinions would be greatly valued.

I don’t know when the “Dunfs” or “Dumps” came in. My Dad, who trained at Rosyth from 1946-49, had a habit of saying “Ra -ra- ra Dunfs” (or Dumps). He was English, I thought he’d made it up. Maybe it was a Navy thing, from a long way back; if so it’s just a wee example of the persistence of old, and multiple, nicknames.

The Slavin incident. I noticed when reading the report from The Dundee Courier (2), that the wording was dignified: there was no mention of drunkenness, and our Captain had to “ask” him to leave the field. Seemed very kind, and sympathetic towards Slavin. But then, he wasn’t sacked. (3). Maybe he was ill? If so, would he have played? Being drunk seems to fit because it suggests he was, as drunks often are, deluded about his condition and unable to make a proper judgement about it.

continued below

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 Re: Pars? Volume 2 - The search narrows
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Wed 7 Dec 02:09

continued from above

......unable to make a proper judgement about it. As well as the sound reasons you gave, I wondered if ‘papers might have omitted to say he was drunk in case the police brought a charge against him, of ‘drunk and incapable,’ or similar. Syndicated reports by Dunfermline journalists would have made it easy to keep out any suggestion of drunkenness.

(1) DUNFERMLINE’S NEW PROPOSALS, Dundee Evening Telegraph 11 March 1913, accessed at BNA.

(2) ASKED TO RETIRE, CAPTAIN OF DUNFERMLINE TEAM REQUESTS GOALKEEPER TO LEAVE THE FIELD, Dundee Courier 30 Oct 1911, accessed at BNA.

(3) DUNFERMLINE F.C. AFFAIRS. VOTE OF CONFIDENCE PASSED IN COMMITTEE, Dundee Courier 2 Nov 1911. accessed at BNA.

Extracts from these sources appear at onandupthepars, Sat 3 Dec 14:46.



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 Re: Pars? Volume 2 - The search narrows
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Wed 7 Dec 10:52

By, it`s difficult trying to put into words all these ideas. I`ve changed my last post a lot, so I hope anyone who`s interested might read it again and agree or disagree!



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 Re: Pars? Volume 2 - The search narrows
Topic Originator: fcda  
Date:   Wed 7 Dec 21:19

onandupthepars wrote:

> "I did some searching for it, but you`ve got the nack. Any
> tips for searching?"

To search for a phrase enter it as follows:

+"unkind critic"

and if you don`t want derivatives of words to be hits (like critics or criticism), check the Exact Search box.

If there are terms you don`t want included specify them with a minus:

+"unkind critic" -Philosophy

It`s a bit hit or miss though and I`ve got a feeling that the words highlighted in the excerpt text follow different rules from the overall search.

If you search for "on a par" there are hits but "a" on its own is highlighted in the excerpt. I`ve not subscribed so can`t click through to confirm whether the article has the phrase "on a par" or not.

Some common words like "the" are ignored. I don`t know for sure whether they`re ignored if part of a phrase.

You can also filter via Advanced Search, to restrict the dates and also select particular newspapers.


I`m not convinced that these archives (or the search facility?) is giving a complete picture. For a start there are no Dunfermline Press articles for the time, which would surely be a major source of information. Also, I found some Scotsman aricles elsewhere but when I search for terms in those articles on BNA, they don`t appear, despite it Scotsman being listed. It might be the scanning/OCR on the Scotsman articles is bad, so what is else is effectively missing?

Example: "... applications -wereroceifed` from Ayr TJnitodCowdenbeath , Dumbarton Dundee HiberniansDunloxmlmo Athletic , amj St Bernards The voting resulted in . favour of tho promotion of Ayr United and Dumbarton . - ` Arthurlie and Leith were ro-elected to ^ the Second ..."

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 Re: Pars? Volume 2 - The search narrows
Topic Originator: fcda  
Date:   Wed 7 Dec 21:20

On to other sources...

The London Hearts site (boke!) is a great FREE resource of newspaper scans:
https://www.londonhearts.com/scores/images/hnews/yearlist.html. Seems to be mostly Scotsman but also Scottish Referee and Herald.

They aren`t OCRed so you can`t do a textual search but if you know roughly the time period you can find some intersting stuff. This page has a report from a "Shield" game against Hibs in 1902 where "the Athletics" appear to have surpised a few folk despite ultimately losing:
https://www.londonhearts.com/scores/images/1902/1902030189.htm

From what I`ve read the Scottish Referee newspaper seems the most likely to have a reference to "The Pars" in terms of how the articles are written. It was a Glasgow based paper but covered a lot of games. I found a 1910 reference to "Bairn" in quotes for a Falkirk player. I expected Scottish Referee to have some mention of the Slavin incident but it didn`t appear to, in the editions after the game. Maybe it`s covered in later if the story got more traction after the event.

If you`re looking for early results, the Scottish Football Historical Results Archive is a good source which has Dunfermline results from the early years:

Central League Results: http://sfha.org.uk/centralleague.htm

Fife Cup/League Results: http://sfha.org.uk/fifecup.htm

Northern League Results: http://sfha.org.uk/northernleague.htm

I`ve been trying to look into the "on a par" theory. I`ll post more details later, but I haven`t really found anything to back it up.

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 Re: Pars? Volume 2 - The search narrows
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Wed 7 Dec 22:41

Great stuff fcda, I`ll have a dig about in those sources - and I think the tips you gave for how to search more accurately will help me no end. So thank you.

Another source that could be useful, I came across by chance when reading an article about Dundee Police Court from the (Dundee?) Evening Telegraph. Here`s what it said:

"The Football Edition of the Evening Telegraph containing results of important local matches, can now be obtained every Saturday evening in Aberdeen... after 10 P.M." (The Evening Telegraph, November 17, 1886, p.?, column 4.)

Aberdeen`s a long way off, but if it`s a Dundee `paper it might include e.g. our results occasionally, bearing in mind that we weren`t an important club back then.

I`ll post this now, wife calling. I`ve got more to add, back soon.



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 Re: Pars? Volume 2 - The search narrows
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Wed 7 Dec 23:38

Hi fcda

You’re looking at the “on a par” idea. The beauty of that one is that incident where the Cowdenbeath manager was asked, is your club “on a par” with D.A. and he replied, “higher up” (1). Maybe a few of our fans had a laugh at that (although it was maybe true.) I’m re-posting from earlier, in case you can use it:

‘Paterson (better known as Sandy then Alex) was secretary of Hearts of Beath before moving to Cowdenbeath as secretary-manager shortly after that club joined the league in 1906. Under him Cowden won two successive Division Two titles in 1913-14 & 1914-15 in the days before automatic promotion. He was once a witness in a dispute over whether local land should be used for greyhound racing or for football and was asked by the Sheriff if his club was `on a par` with Dunfermline Athletic. He replied "higher up." ‘(1)

"I`m just thinking, maybe that was a wee joke, based on our nickname. If so, we had it by the time of that dispute."(2)


Sandy Paterson: Cowdenbeath manager 1906-24. Became Pars manager, 1925-30. (3)


(1) by "Scottish", SEp 6 2012, on the scottishleague forum https://www.scottishleague.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1958&p=20294&hilit=pars+1914

(2) From the first of these Istvan Kozma “Pars?” threads:29 Nov 01:46

(3) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandy_Paterson_(football_manager)



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 Re: Pars? Volume 2 - The search narrows
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Thu 8 Dec 03:03

GETTING CLOSER!

Reported by a Forfar newspaper: in two books of press cuttings from the period 1888-1894:

"Newspaper criticism of players and of teams..."The Forfar Athletic is a very good team but cannot play cup-ties worth a snuff." "FARFAR ATHALETICS! THEY SHUD BE CAUD FARFAR PARALETICS!" (1)

My capital letters, but the spelling is as it is in the article.

As we can see, the spelling,"Athaletic" was not just ours, nor was "Paraletic" - of which I`ve found many records before 1900.

(NB I wouldn`t have found these without fcda`s tuition in his recent post on Wed 7 Dec 21:19)


(1)"TREASURE TROVE", Forfar Dispatch, 13 December 1945, p.2, column 5. Accessed at British Newspaper Archives 8/12/22.



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 Re: Pars? Volume 2 - The search narrows
Topic Originator: SusieQ  
Date:   Thu 8 Dec 08:49

Wow! You guys are fairly digging up some interesting stuff.

Would be fascinating to find out if the lads from Plymouth were therefore trying to fit in & the acronym was just a happy coincidence - if the nickname was already established before their arrival.

Makes you wonder if they were welcomed or if there was a bit of antagonism & this was their way to make friends.

If that makes sense lol!!

Still, an incredibly interesting thread, tho I can`t help but feel a little sad the mystic of our nickname is being eradicated!

Mon the Pars 😉👏🏼


COME ON YE PARS!
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 Re: Pars? Volume 2 - The search narrows
Topic Originator: sammer  
Date:   Thu 8 Dec 09:46

For me, this has always been a weakness in the theory that our name comes from a play of words on Athletic/paralytic. It would have applied as easily to Alloa or Forfar, and there is now evidence that indeed happened. So if the theory is correct, why did the nickname `stick` with only Dunfermline Athletic?

Maybe the story of the inebriated goalkeeper was a factor, although it has been claimed on here that the Pars name dates before 1911. Or did fans of Alloa or Forfar just use the name of the town to refer to their team, whilst Dunfermline fans regularly used the term `Athletic` to distinguish it from another local side?

sammer
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 Re: Pars? Volume 2 - The search narrows
Topic Originator: DBP  
Date:   Thu 8 Dec 09:58

My view Susie is it sounds like the pars moniker was in place and therefore it’s a small leap to assume the dockyard folk must have created their own initialism to fit (as has been said before, Rosyth only really fits if your looking for an R word otherwise you’d have put D for Dunfermline)
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 Re: Pars? Volume 2 - The search narrows
Topic Originator: dd23  
Date:   Thu 8 Dec 10:14

That’s my thoughts too DBP.
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 Re: Pars? Volume 2 - The search narrows
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Thu 8 Dec 10:26

Ref: sammer Thu 8 Dec 09:46

"did fans of Alloa or Forfar just use the name of the town to refer to their team, whilst Dunfermline fans regularly used the term `Athletic` to distinguish it from another local side?

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


It would seem to be connected with that, Sammer. Of the teams that were called (something) Athletic, I haven`t yet come across another where two teams from the same town had the same first name. We may have been unique in that respect.

In the early days, there were:

Alloa Athletic, Fair City Athletic, Forfar Athletic, Govanhill Athletic, Leith Athletic,

perhaps others.

Now - as you say - why and how did it stick?

I`m sorry SusieQ, that you feel we might be losing some of the mystique. I can`t see it that way. I can only speak for myself but I feel I`m gaining, by getting closer to the Pars club and supporters of old. I never took much notice of our old history before, but it`s more alive to me now and stretches all the way back, not just to the 1960s when I started going to EEP. Our history is our club`s life story. It`s like - I grew up knowing my gran, only as "my gran," until I spent many hours with her, letting her reveal her young life to me. I got to know her as the young person she had been, the real her, different to how I`d known her. I`d love it if others could see this search in that way, as opening up the past, letting the fresh air in on it and linking us more strongly to our DAFC forebears.



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 Re: Pars? Volume 2 - The search narrows
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Thu 8 Dec 11:02

Ref: onandupthepars
Thu 8 Dec 03:03

"Reported by a Forfar newspaper: in two books of press cuttings from the period 1888-1894:

"Newspaper criticism of players and of teams..."The Forfar Athletic is a very good team but cannot play cup-ties worth a snuff." "Farfar Athletics! They shud be caud Farfar Paraletics!" (1)

--------------------------------------

Seems to me it`s very strong supporting evidence for what East Ender wrote in 1913, that the nickname is from `Paralytics`, (commonly spelled `Paraletics`):

‘ Strangers to East End Park have, I believe, often wondered what meaning there was in the war-cry of a section of the home supporters. “Come away the Pars.” The term is an abbreviation of the word “Paralytics”, which at one time an unkind critic had dubbed the Athletics.’(2)


(Nevertheless there`s still a mystique about some of the other ideas - and how they came about. The whole "mystery of the Pars nickname" is part of our history.)


(1)"TREASURE TROVE", Forfar Dispatch, 13 December 1945, p.2, column 5. Accessed at British Newspaper Archives 8/12/22.

(2) DUNFERMLINE’S NEW PROPOSALS, Dundee Evening Telegraph 11 March 1913, accessed at BNA.



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 Re: Pars? Volume 2 - The search narrows
Topic Originator: Ben,D.A  
Date:   Thu 8 Dec 11:52

"Newspaper criticism of players and of teams..."The Forfar Athletic is a very good team but cannot play cup-ties worth a snuff." "FARFAR ATHALETICS! THEY SHUD BE CAUD FARFAR PARALETICS!"

Brings back a connection to the Pict lands of Far, the name of their lands, and Fib, which was the name for Fife. Par was the name given to the `chief` of the Land and was a name of respect.
The Fife coast has many caves from that era and considered to be where the last of the Pict survived after been driven to the coast.

just saying like :-)

only 11 make the team,the rest can just but dream.
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 Re: Pars? Volume 2 - The search narrows
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Thu 8 Dec 12:20

Yes, it`s curious how these `Par` connections crop up so much, Ben. (Parlyn, Pargon, Paragon, Dunparlane? Par as a cheif! My goodness...) Maybe somebody can write a book: `DAFC - "The Pars" - it was just meant to be!`

Very interesting to read stuff on the Net about Fib. Wish I could have found that `map` you referred to seeing at `The Cottage Inn` - (a household name I grew up with). I guess it maybe wasn`t a map as we think of it, with towns etc, but a sort of diagram showing the areas and names by which lands were known in the Fife or Fib Kingdom?
I wonder if it wasn`t a published thing but a sort of diagram made by a local history buff? Could it have been made by Colin Dymock? He and your Dad seem to have been pretty hot historians, for you to have heard them chatting about `Paragons` or `Pargons`?

(Eeee, the Cottage Inn though.🙂 😢We lost something there. Should`ve been listed. Maybe not so much for architecture but for the life that went on and the place it had in folk`s world.)




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 Re: Pars? Volume 2 - The search narrows
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Thu 8 Dec 12:39

Ref:DBP and dd23,
8 Dec 9:58 and 10:14

"...it sounds like the pars moniker was in place and therefore it’s a small leap to assume the dockyard folk must have created their own initialism to fit (as has been said before, Rosyth only really fits if your looking for an R word otherwise you’d have put D for Dunfermline)"
-------------------------------------------------------------

Yes, I agree with you, seems most likely.



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 Re: Pars? Volume 2 - The search narrows
Topic Originator: SusieQ  
Date:   Thu 8 Dec 13:58

Apologies onandupthepars - was not intended as criticism of the efforts.

The research, etc is fascinating & it`s consistently the first thread I currently open to see more light shed on the reasonings.

Carry on, sir 😎👍🏼


COME ON YE PARS!
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 Re: Pars? Volume 2 - The search narrows
Topic Originator: Ben,D.A  
Date:   Thu 8 Dec 15:41

onandupthepars,
It was more a diagram between the Tay and The Forth, with rivers and burns and settlement names rather than the places we know now.
The Lyne (burn) east, Parlyne with the Lyneburn west as Pargon. Many other names of Par were on the coastline
For, was south of the FORth, Fib, the peninsula of Fife, and Far, the area over the `Tay`, which is a different story.
Partick is a west coast example.



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 Re: Pars? Volume 2 - The search narrows
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Thu 8 Dec 17:42

Ref: SusieQ Thu 8 Dec 13:58

No bother SusieQ, thank you for letting me know; and I hope you`ll keep posting because you never know what can lead to a new point of view, angle or line of thought and a discovery.

It feels to me like there`s a significant increase in support of the `paralytics` origin - we`ve found very strong evidence for it, maybe even beyond a reasonable doubt? but the questions - how and why did it happen - need working on.

As for the Rosyth connection, it seems that when the PARS banner appeared at EEP, it must already have been our nickname.

The matter was put in a nutshell by DBP, at 09:58 above. And quite a bit back, Sammer pointed out that it seems "the Pars" must have come first because, if the banner was just for the Par (Cornwall) connection, (or even if there was a Pymouth Argyle connection and it wasn`t just a joke) it would be unlikely to have become accepted, let alone become our "war-cry".

If we accept that our nickname came from `Paralytics`, there`s little need to pursue the Rosyth connection as a possible origin.

Istvan,
Do you think we should keep this thread for (mostly) nickname origin, and have a new thread for the Rosyth/ Pars of Cornwall/Plymouth Argyle stuff? I`m easy either way - not sure what`s for best.



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 Re: Pars? Volume 2 - The search narrows
Topic Originator: Buspasspar  
Date:   Thu 8 Dec 18:23

Topic Originator: Keith FJ
Date: Sat 3 Dec 22:16

Excellent thread, thank you!

All I would add is that my Dad (90 last Monday), always told me it came from Paralytics, quite feasible he heard it from someone who was around at the beginning of the 20th Century.

As a Pars supporter for over 60 years Keith that was always the answer when the question was asked

This has been the best post/thread for a long time and hats off to all who have put so much time and effort into the research to try and prove that this is the answer ... or is it :-))

We are forever shaped by the Children we once were
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 Re: Pars? Volume 2 - The search narrows
Topic Originator: istvan kozma  
Date:   Thu 8 Dec 19:35

I`m thrilled to see that momentum is building. Once I`m finally on holiday in a couple of weeks I will be getting on it. Unless of course the mystery has been cracked by then!

Certainly the paraletics theory is building momentum. Although I agree with the doubts because there are other clubs called athletic. But alloa were the wasps very early on. I read a reference to that dating back to around 1910.

Forfar are also unsure how their nickname of the Loons came to be.

KOZMA




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 Re: Pars? Volume 2 - The search narrows
Topic Originator: istvan kozma  
Date:   Thu 8 Dec 19:42

I`m increasingly of the opinion that our Plymouth supporters just adopted our nickname and created Plymouth Argyll Rosyth Supporters.

Not sure about the Cornwall Par link. It`s a tiny village, but it`s a nice idea.

KOZMA


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 Re: Pars? Volume 2 - The search narrows
Topic Originator: Ben,D.A  
Date:   Thu 8 Dec 20:21

Forfar are also unsure how their nickname of the Loons came to be.

Its Doric for Lads, quins are lassies.

only 11 make the team,the rest can just but dream.
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 Re: Pars? Volume 2 - The search narrows
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Thu 8 Dec 21:02

That`s the ticket Buspass, Dad knows!

Glad to hear you’re still in the fray Istvan.

WE ARE NOT ALONE !

What would you say about a team called, wait for it.........(I’ve had to keep checking it, because I can hardly believe I’m seeing right)………………………….the Hamilton Paraletics !!!!!!!

Yes, a 1914 article in the Hamilton Daily Times, reports on a game between them and ‘the Eries’ in the Canadian League (baseball)(1).

Looks like their proper name was Hamilton Athletic. From that, like us, they’re called ‘the Athletics’, because there`s an article on the same page: `With the Athletics on the Road,` and it`s clearly about the same team. And they had another nickname, ‘the Hams.’ I can’t see any reference to them being called “The Pars, ” so we can heave a sigh of relief. It looks as though that may still be unique to us.

Unfortunately I’ve been unable to find out anything about why they were called the Paraletics, or why they took to it. I think they went defunct pretty quick, I found sparse references to them on wiki for 1913-15. (2)

On the BNA site there are lots of reports about the Hamilton Athletics baseball team, but I’ve only found one in which they are called the paraletics. It’s weird because they won that game handsomely. It may be a particular journalist called them that and it didn’t stick? I’ll have to put in more time on it, but anyone else wants to look into it, I’ve given the BNA reference below. In the search box for the first one I put +”Hamilton Paraletics” and for other relevant articles, I put +”Hamilton Athletics”



(1)“YANKEES MADE EIGHT ERRORS AND ATHLETICS WON YESTERDAY’S GAME”, Hamilton Daily Times, 20 August 1914, p. 8. Accessed at BNA, 7/12/22.

(2) Refs to ‘Hamilton Hams’ 1913-15: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_League



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 Re: Pars? Volume 2 - The search narrows
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Sat 10 Dec 03:54

I have wondered about the interpretation of ‘paraletic’ drunk. I think it can mean semi-comatose, and useless; but also - rough, bolshy, disrespectful? Could it be that our DAFC forebears liked the second meaning, i.e. always up for a fight? Maybe makes more sense to have a nickname that means you think of your players as fighters like Joe Jordan and Billy Bremner rather than useless drunks.

Football was a rough game in the auld days, there are plenty of references to players playing rough and fighting. Here’s an article I found in which it looks as if the Athletic must have been particularly known for it at the time:

From The Alloa Advertiser, Saturday, November 14, 1896
“NOTES BY AN OLD PLAYER”: (presumably an Alloa one.)

“Both the supporters of Alloa and Clackmannan have found out to their cost, that Dunfermline is about the worst place that any football club could visit, and it is about time something was done in order to give them a lesson as to how a football match should be conducted, whether Dunfermline are winning or losing the match. Several of the Clackmannan players would have …liked very well to have given some return for the treatment they received on Saturday.”

(It goes on to say more about ‘the Athletic’ but that’s Alloa, not us.)

The match report: DUNFERMLINE ATHLETIC v CLACKMANNAN – is quite an eye-opener:

“These clubs met at Ladymill Park, Dunfermline, last Saturday afternoon, in the second round of the King Cup Competition…Both teams were at full strength, and the game started with vigour on both sides. The rough element soon showed itself, and little or no football was shown. It became a case of man to man, the strongest coming off best. The referee had an anxious time of it, his whistle sounding continuously, and the first half ended with Dunfermline leading by 2 goals to one. With the change of ends came the tug of war. Clackmannan early took the game in hand and kept the Fifers in their own territory. Rough play continued to an alarming extent, and the referee was heard to exclaim that if the players did not cease he would stop the game. This, however, had little effect and shortly after a Dunfermline player was ordered to the pavilion for deliberate kicking. Clackmannan managed to put on other three goals in this half while Dunfermline added another, and the county lads came out of the trying ordeal with flying colours, winning by 4 goals to 3. A contemporary says – ‘The game etc., was one of the worst displays of football ever witnessed in this district, and the referee, who did all he could to put down rough play had to be escorted to the pavilion by two policemen. Such conduct ought to be reported to the Association having jurisdiction, and something done to put a stop to it. Clackmannan were by no means the aggressors but simply took their own part.’

Well, was it a joke or fighting spirit that was the inspiration for our “war-cry” ? Or both?



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 Re: Pars? Volume 2 - The search narrows
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Sat 10 Dec 12:40

`Paraletics` because we were useless?

I`ve not found evidence that we were ever poor enough to be called "Paralytics" on account of being consistently useless. (Not claiming we never were, only, if it was the case, it`s hard to find) We seemed to be up and down all the time? Typified by Clackmannan beating us 17-2, (1) then later the same season? we beat them 8-1 (2). Nevertheless, that year, according to John Hunter, our `league campaign was far from sound.` That`s 1891-2 season.(3)

But teams were winning and losing by big scores a lot in they days. There`s 13-2, 11-1, 10-0. Scores like that were nothing like as stunning - or indicative of a team that was hopeless - as they would be now.

I was working on the idea that "Farfar Paraletics!"(4) might have meant the word `Paraletics`, as applied to fitba`, could have become current among supporters about then. How? We don`t know what `paper it was in, only that it was in books of cuttings, referred to in the Forfar Dispatch. (5) Forfar is only about 14 miles from Dundee. What if the cutting it was in, was from a Dundee `paper? We can be sure our fans read The Dundee Evening Gazette when our `East Ender ` was writing in it. But maybe 20 years earlier? Possibly. If it was in a `paper read by our supporters, it could have been used by them because we were "Athletics" just as Forfar were.

Another idea is, what if we played Forfar, even a few years later, and Forfar fans decided it was a good word to hurl at us.

It can`t be claimed that the term definitely came to us from Forfar, but it`s "a line of inquiry."

(BTW, I`ve not found the date of the 17-2 match, can anyone give it?)

References pending



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 Re: Pars? Volume 2 - The search narrows
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Mon 12 Dec 00:09

From the Dundee Courier, Wed 23rd August 1893:

A PLAYER SIGNING WHILE DRUNK

“Mr John Miller said that while under the influence of drink he had signed a professional form for Dunfermline Athletic. He desired to be reinstated as an amateur player…” (1)
_________________________________________________________

I was wondering, where did our players sign for the club then? I have read that we had our committee meetings at the Old Inn, and that it was our unofficial HQ (2). I think there was only a wooden pavilion at our ground, (3) seems unlikely we’d have signed players there.

Might we have done that business at the Old Inn? If I remember right, it was quite a wee bar. Maybe there were stairs at the far end of the bar, that went to rooms upstairs? And our committee meetings and maybe signing of players went on there?

Then (I can imagine) our new signings come downstairs for a drink, (maybe even had had a few before they signed, see example above) and get fu’ on drinks bought for them by Pars supporters, or encouraged by them, in the bar?

Hence, it might have had to do with how we played at times, but also the extra-friendly welcome new players, and maybe existing ones, got at the D. A. committee’s unofficial headquarters, the Old Inn?

Might it help to explain why, according to East Ender, it was only “a section” of our supporters whose “war-cry” was “Come away the Paraletics”? (4) That “section” being ones who frequented the Old Inn and others who associated with them at matches?

And the reason we don’t find references to “the Pars” so early might be explained because, as Gordon Baird posted, the ‘papers were conservative,(5) i.e. (in my words:) not likely to adopt a new nickname used by a section of the fans. We already had longstanding one(s), particularly “The Athaletic,” which the older supporters stuck with. The `papers, it seems, just preferred to use the old nicknames. As I suggested, the editors were likely of an older age group themselves.

And so it maybe wasn’t until the Pars banner appeared, and perhaps the ‘Parallel bars’ as well, that “the Pars” started to become the dominant nickname?

references pending



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 Re: Pars? Volume 2 - The search narrows
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Tue 13 Dec 00:52

INN THE BEGINNING…

“Thirty-seven gentlemen met in the Old Inn, Dunfermline, on Tuesday evening and formed what is henceforth to be known as the Dunfermline Athletic Football Club. Mr E. Lennox is captain, and the secretary is Mr A. Westwood, Reform Street, who for a considerable time was secretary to the Dunfermline Football Club. Arrangements are being made for the opening match. This new club has obtained a capital park at Easter Towngreen, Dunfermline.”


And that’s how we came quietly into the world at the Old Inn, as reported under SPORTS AND PASTIMES, page 3, column 4: from The Fifeshire Journal, Thursday, June 4 1885. Accessed at BNA, 13/12/22

Looking at pictures of the Old Inn now, it`s huge compared to how I knew it in the 1970s. Now it proudly promotes itself as "the birthplace of Dunfermline Athletic Football Club, better known as the PARS."

Just can`t help feeling (or wishful thinking) it could be connected to the nickname`s origin.

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 Re: Pars? Volume 2 - The search narrows
Topic Originator: Ben,D.A  
Date:   Tue 13 Dec 10:58

Just an idea onandupthepars.
The relationship between the cricket club and the football club must have been quite strained at the time, and no doubt a rivalry with all involved. Mud slinging and name calling could make a name stick?
During the sixties my old man went to several club meetings in the City Hotel and supporter gatherings at the DASC opposite the old bottom bus stance. This must have been before the new stand was built
I remember the players going to the City for lunch after training, they also used The Carousel in the old Regal picture house
I also remember school swimming lessons at Carnegie baths and the whole team were in the pool when we left.

only 11 make the team,the rest can just but dream.
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 Re: Pars? Volume 2 - The search narrows
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Tue 13 Dec 20:57

You`ve got me thinking again, Ben! besides enjoying sharing your smashing memories. On the Old Inn connection; here’s my latest theory:

“PARALYTICS” / “THE PARS” – DAFC SUPPORTERS’ BADGE OF HONOUR?

In 1885, 37 men got together in the Old Inn and formed Dunfermline Athletic Football Club (1).

The reason we had split from the Cricket Club was their insistence that anyone who wanted to play football for the club (CC winter training), had first to become a member of the Cricket Club (2). A few hostile exchanges there maybe.

Then, when we formed, our secretary was the man who had been their secretary! (1). Some acrimony over that?

Any acrimony could have lasted for years. Especially as we were such close neighbours. They might always have thought of us as that crowd from The Old Inn.

Factor in that football could be a very rough game in those days. The rules were far from what we have today (3). Might the Cricket Club folk have been old style “gentlemen”? who, unlike most other teams, didn’t play rough? and they held that against their upstart near-neighbours as well?

Just as the players mixed with the public in your young days Ben, I imagine they did it even more in our club’s early days. Maybe they mixed socially at the Old Inn. As our committee’s “unofficial HQ”(4), it might also have been our boardroom, manager’s office and social club all in one, just like at EEP now. The City Hotel is very close to The Old Inn. If some of our players and supporters were known to drink together, in a public bar, it could have strengthened the “Paralytics” idea in the mind of our “unkind critic.” (Maybe the Cricket Club folk looked down on public bars, and would only go to more select places? Ideas of social “Class” were very strong then.)

I imagine our “Athaletics” nickname probably caught on immediately because it was our identifier - it distinguished us from them.

Could “The Athaletics”, our players’ connections with The Old Inn, and possibly drinking in public bars, have been enough for us to be called “Paralytics?”

If the inspiration for it also needed us to be a poor team, might the early 1890s be a possibility? We had some hefty defeats, including 10-0 to Cowdenbeath, 11-1 to Hibs, (17-2 to Clackmannan?) and 4-0 to our Dunfermline neighbours. Early 1890s would fit with some of our results, and it would fit with “East Ender” writing in 1913, that we were called “Paralytics” “at one time”, (i.e. quite a long time before.) (5)

Why would our supporters take to being called “Paralytics?

Our players were amateurs – working men like the supporters, who may have mixed, e.g. at The Old Inn and the City Hotel. Our supporters probably liked the idea of work hard, play hard. So what if we weren’t very good at the time – we were us – “the Athaletics”. “Paraletics,” to some extent may have encapsulated the differences between us and - perhaps what was seen as (CONTINUED BELOW)



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 Re: Pars? Volume 2 - The search narrows
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Tue 13 Dec 20:59

(CONTINUED FROM ABOVE)


seen as class-consciousness or snootiness at - the Cricket Club. We weren’t elitist like them – maybe we were proud of our roots and position in society as ordinary hard-working folk? Far from taking it as an insult, we made it a badge of honour.

References:
(1) The Fifeshire Journal, Thursday, June 4 1885. Accessed at BNA, 13/12/22
(2) John Hunter, “Dunfermline Athletic FC, A Centenary History 1885-1895”, p.7
(3) pending
(4) pending
(5) DUNFERMLINE’S NEW PROPOSALS, Dundee Evening Telegraph 11 March 1913, accessed at British Newspaper Archives (BNA)



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 Re: Pars? Volume 2 - The search narrows
Topic Originator: SusieQ  
Date:   Tue 13 Dec 22:15

Interesting theories there onandupthepars - very plausible 👏🏼👏🏼


COME ON YE PARS!
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 Re: Pars? Volume 2 - The search narrows
Topic Originator: Ben,D.A  
Date:   Tue 13 Dec 22:42

Taken from another thread.

Topic Originator: LochgellyAlbert like
Date: Tue 13 Dec 11:43

In my younger days I understood that paralytic meant you couldn`t move fast, generally lethargic and that`s the reason I thought DAFC were called that.

Good point LA

Could this be due to the summer and winter training of the cricket club?
A breakaway football section kept fit in the cold months, while others stiffened up and slowed down?

It could be another can of worms waited to be opened.

only 11 make the team,the rest can just but dream.
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 Re: Pars? Volume 2 - The search narrows
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Tue 13 Dec 22:51

Thank you SusieQ. Just as an illustration of class prejudice, my gran was talking about when, about 1925, she worked at Bruce`s the baker on the High Street. She said that she was "a shop worker, and office workers were a cut above, and we looked doon on factory workers. Oh there was class distinctions," she said, " Rubber-dumpers we used tae ca` the folk that worked at the rubber factory."

I wonder if that`s how DAFC got the nickname "The Dumps." Come to think of it, wasn`t it near our first football pitch - past the bottom o` the Glen - what became McKane Park?

EDIT: Re. "our first football pitch". Incorrect. See Correction below

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 Re: Pars? Volume 2 - The search narrows
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Tue 13 Dec 23:19

Ref: Ben,D.A
Tue 13 Dec 22:42

Referring to Lochgelly Albert:

"In my younger days I understood that paralytic meant you couldn`t move fast, generally lethargic and that`s the reason I thought DAFC were called that."

Ben:

"Could this be due to the summer and winter training of the cricket club?
A breakaway football section kept fit in the cold months, while others stiffened up and slowed down?"

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

D`you mean we broke away to keep fit in the winter?
I don`t think so Ben, because the Cricket Club already had winter football. I don`t think keeping fit in the winter was an issue. According to John Hunter, in the Centenary book:

The cricketers wanted the constitution of the football club - their own football club - altered so that, "no-one be admitted a member of the football club unless he be a member of the cricket club." That demand was made at their AGM on 26 May, 1885.

The breakaway was quick. DAFC was formed on 2nd of June, so it seems they didn`t get on at all. I suspect for a long time, and that was the last straw. The new club is said to have included many members of the original football club. (More acrimony?)

Re. OUR FIRST PITCH:

What puzzles me is that the Centenary book says that we took a lease on East End Park and played our first match there on 13th of June.

I think I see my mistake - Lady`s Mill Park - which later became McKane Park, wasn`t DAFC`s first ground. That was the Cricket Club`s ground. Good. Nevertheless, at that time East End Park was probably just a playing field, maybe with a wooden pavilion, i.e. changing rooms?



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 Re: Pars? Volume 2 - The search narrows
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Wed 14 Dec 02:22

MORE ABOUT THE ROUGH NATURE OF FOOTBALL in our early days: from The Fifeshire Journal of November 1st 1888:

“A protest by Dunfermline Athletic against Cowdenbeath, on the score of rough play and other grounds, was thrown out in consequence of it not being lodged in proper form…”

"LEITH ATHLETIC v DUNFERMLINE ATHLETIC" (at EEP.) “Five of the ordinary Dunfermline team were disabled at the match at Cowdenbeath the previous Saturday (presumably the one about which we lodged the protest)… and their places were filled by second eleven men.” It seems that, about a quarter of an hour into the second half, “Stevenson, one of the Leith half-backs, kicked T. McKee of the Dunfermline, to all appearance deliberately, when the latter was on the point of throwing in the ball. On seeing this, McKee’s brother, who was playing for Dunfermline, rushed forward and struck Stevenson.”
Spectators got involved and the game was abandoned.

We had five players “disabled” against Cowdenbeath, and later lodged a protest against their rough play. Must have been pretty rough. Maybe it`s small wonder if the Cricket Club gentlemen had wanted to make it a condition that anyone playing for their football team must first pass the entry conditions - perhaps a matter of getting a couple of their existing members to propose and second them - for membership of their exclusive Cricket Club.



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 Re: Pars? Volume 2 - The search narrows
Topic Originator: helensburghpar  
Date:   Wed 14 Dec 19:40

I`ve got a page from Rover and Adventure comic from the early 1960`s. It`s a feature on Britain`s football clubs and no 47 is Dunfermline.
It`s in the form of a cartoon strip and I`ll reproduce what it says in box 2. Dunfermline`s first game was against Edinburgh university in June 1885. They won two one but their form was not always as good and that is how they got their nickname - The Pars.
There`s a picture above of a disgruntled fan shouting Oh come on the Paralytics.

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 Re: Pars? Volume 2 - The search narrows
Topic Originator: 1970par  
Date:   Wed 14 Dec 20:02

I find I’m kicking myself as Roy Barry and I had the opportunity to ask Mr Crombie about the origins when we interviewed him (aged 104) around 7 years ago, now I’m sure that he would have been able to shed some light upon it

Perhaps it’s something that he chose to discuss with his family, an avenue that may well be worth looking into. I will endeavour to make contact to see if there are any recollections



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 Re: Pars? Volume 2 - The search narrows
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Wed 14 Dec 21:49

That is terrific, 1970par. Excellent idea.

Of course, Helensburgh, it could have been like you say, but it`s difficult to see how it would have stuck. We don`t seem to have been a really poor team for any long spell - just up and down a lot. Other teams were as bad or worse. And if we were only up and down, or even very poor for a season or two, why would we stick with that nickname when we improved?

I maybe over-think it, but until somebody can answer why it stuck, I can`t help theorising on the details we`ve got. And it`s fun. It exercises the grey cells.

Still searching at the British Newspaper Archive. (Getting my £12-99 worth!)

A couple of items from The Dunfermline Saturday Press, 5 November, 1887:

AT THE CITY HOTEL: AGM OF DUNFERMLINE CRICKET CLUB, (including their football team, the one we split from)

Dunfermline CC had their AGM “in the City Arms hotel on Monday Evening…There was a fair attendance.” Much about the CC and presentations for best batting average etc. They had a poor year. Maybe not fully recovered from what you’d think they must have seen as a large scale desertion to DAFC, two years before.

OUR PROVOST, ON ROUGH FOOTBALL

“A large concourse of spectators” attended the opening of a new pavilion by Provost Donald at EEP. In his speech, he “referred to the advantages resulting from healthy recreation, and expressed good wishes for the Athletic club. Not a single accident of note, the Provost said, had occurred in the East End Park, since the Athletic club had been established, and this showed that the Dunfermline men were at least doing what they could to raise the game to a level when rough play would not be thought of. (Applause.) In a game which was so popular with the young, rough play could not be tolerated. There would be no roughness whatever, he assured them, if the game of football was played intelligently.”
(Reminds me of, “There can be no whitewash at the Whitehouse.”) 🙂 No doubt about it, football had a name for being a rough sport.

A THEORY FOR HOW OUR SUPPORTERS CAME TO KNOW SOMEBODY HAD CALLED US ‘PARALYTICS’

The CC had their AGM in the City Arms Hotel, i.e. The City Hotel. I’m tempted to think there may have been some contact there - or overhearing, (at some time) - of CC members by DAFC supporters. How was it known by our supporters that someone had called our team ‘Paralytics’? I don’t think it would have been anything written or said in circumstances that could have led to a charge of libel or slander. Could it have been a remark made by a significant member of the CC, during a Cricket Club meeting, or afterwards, that was overheard by hotel staff, e.g. someone who worked as a waiter or bar staff there, and was one of the ‘section’ of supporters East Ender referred to (1). The story could have spread among that section and the word ‘Paralytics’ used to embarrass the Cricket Club, and as a badge of honour?

(1)
DUNFERMLINE’S NEW PROPOSALS, Dundee Evening Telegraph 11 March 1913, accessed at British Newspaper Archives (BNA)




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 Re: Pars? Volume 2 - The search narrows
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Wed 14 Dec 22:09

Of course, as East Ender said, our name "Athaletics" is key. Maybe I`m staring at something so hard I can`t see what`s in front of me? 🙂

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 Re: Pars? Volume 2 - The search narrows
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Thu 15 Dec 13:27

IT IS STARING US IN THE FACE!

It came to me as soon as I woke up today - there IS something that`s been staring me in the face! It`s so simple and it absolutely nails it for me. (If I`m wrong, please reserve me a place at Lynebank. 🙂)

Instead of posting it down the bottom of this thread, I`d like to put it at the top of a new one, so I`m going to hold it back for now. Is it time for volume 3, Istvan?

It`s been a great joint effort, I`ve thoroughly enjoyed being a part of this, and I hope we`ll go on and shed light on more of the fascinating questions relating to our early days. I know it`s a big claim, but I do believe there can`t be any further doubt about which of the main five contenders was the origin. "I believe with every drop of rain that falls, a flower grows... Every time I hear a Pars supporter cry - COYP!



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 Re: Pars? Volume 2 - The search narrows
Topic Originator: wee eck  
Date:   Thu 15 Dec 14:10

This is becoming like the `Harry and Megan` documentary - being released in instalments just to tease the audience! 😊😊😊

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 Re: Pars? Volume 2 - The search narrows
Topic Originator: onandupthepars  
Date:   Thu 15 Dec 14:23

I just hope Istvan`s no` away tae the Bahamas for a fortnight! 😊

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