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Topic Originator: GG Riva
Date: Thu 14 Sep 06:45
The `Harvey Barnes` thread contains an interesting subplot about the undeniable positive impact ethnic minority footballers have had on the success of many Western European countries.
Most of these footballers have black African roots, although North African countries are also represented. As a kid, I grew up marvelling at the skills of Pelè and Eusebio. It`s always fascinated me as to why so many black men (and women) become outstanding athletes in so many different sporting fields, not just football. The only sports in which black athletes are not particularly dominant are swimming and tennis, and there are well documented reasons for that.
I remember listening to a TV discussion in which a woman, of Asian appearance, stated that there`s no such thing as race. It`s a term invented by Europeans to excuse their subjugation of peoples with different skin tones. She may be onto something there. So, how is it that so many black athletes shine so brightly on the world stage? Are they naturally physically stronger or mentally tougher, or both?
But if there`s really no such thing as race?.......
Not your average Sunday League player.
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Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks
Date: Thu 14 Sep 09:53
Unless we have anyone who is an expert on genomics I don`t think we will get an answer to your question on race GG.
"So, how is it that so many black athletes shine so brightly on the world stage? Are they naturally physically stronger or mentally tougher, or both?"
The answer to that on an individual level has to be yes otherwise they wouldn`t be successful in competitive sports when up against other individuals. It`s the same reason that Ronaldo and Messi or Djokoovic and Nadal have been so successful though. It`s because they are physically and mentally superior in a way that makes them better than their competitors in that particular field.
And although my eyes were open
They just might as well be closed
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Topic Originator: sadindiefreak
Date: Thu 14 Sep 10:06
Much of the strength of black athletes has its roots in slavery and selective breeding.
This is particularly prevalent in USA. Slavers would pair their strongest slaves to have the strongest children. Weaker slaves would die under the harsh conditions they had to endure.
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Topic Originator: Stanza
Date: Thu 14 Sep 11:42
This is an interesting article that seeks to dismiss the idea of genetic differences.
https://mediadiversified.org/2016/08/19/its-not-about-the-genes-stupid/
There`s no doubt some nations specialise in some sports and also produce a disproportionate number of successful athletes in those sports. But perhaps it`s the old "nature v nurture" argument, and both elements feature, with the proportions varying from country to country.
Unfortunately it`s a debate that can often bring out the worst in people ...
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Topic Originator: Wotsit
Date: Thu 14 Sep 15:02
I don`t have any definitive answers either, but it`s probably worth mentioning that there is a disproportionate number of successful players from impoverished backgrounds .
Folk who have the latest console are less likely to spend their childhoods getting good at football basically.
The other side of this coin is that there are fewer successful black people in sports with high costs such as show jumping and F1.
"Who you are and what you feel comes not just from inside you, but from where you are in the power structure"
Post Edited (Thu 14 Sep 15:04)
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Topic Originator: Paralex
Date: Thu 14 Sep 15:39
I would have considered that black people of African origin were more naturally athletic and stronger than those from a European background. But that may be disputed by the fact that Eastern Europeans like Oleksandr Usyk and Brits like Tyson Fury can more than hold their own against very powerful looking black boxers. However, the really great heavyweight boxers like Ali, Tyson and Foreman etc. have been black.
I think football is a more level playing field because physical strength is not the main attribute for players and of those who have been the best players of their generation, ( Puskas, Pele, Best, Maradona, Ronaldo, Messi) probably the majority have been white.
While the Spanish and Italians have produced great footballers, it is difficult to remember any great boxers, while Latin American countries have produced many.
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Topic Originator: sammer
Date: Thu 14 Sep 16:15
DNA might give a slight advantage in terms of athleticism but football is a thinking game played inside the head as much as on the ground. It’s also a team game where understanding and anticipating fellow players counts for a great deal more than simply being fast or powerful. Players such as Xavi, Iniesta and Messi have made that clear over recent years.
So where does this football ‘know how’ come from - nature or nurture? Well all the great footballers have been recognised as genuine talents by the age of around 10, but they were never playing in a vacuum: they were playing, often against older lads, in 5-a- side street games, kick abouts behind garages, 15-a-side games inside courtyards. Once they have been identified, talented youngsters can be creamed off and coached to a high level but without that initial immersion inside a football culture there is much less to work with.
Here’s a personal experience from a few years back. At a school sports day I was roped in to make up the numbers in an impromptu 7-a-side game of adults v mid teens. Luckily we had a 40 year old Turkish father who had been on Fenerbahce’s books and played like Alex Edwards but his two best supporting players were a couple of wheezy Scots in their mid 50s that had served their time in street games and pub teams. We had idolised Baxter and Law, supported our local teams, and had picked up a basic grasp of the game. In contrast the younger South African, New Zealand and Canadian adults, who had looked good throwing a basketball or playing volleyball, just didn’t have that background and couldn’t tune in to our Turkish maestro.
I think it’s a football culture at basic street level which is producing so many black professional players. The mining villages of central Scotland and the North of England used to be football academies of a sort but maybe their intense connection to the game of football is not as strong now.
sammer
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Topic Originator: Stanza
Date: Thu 14 Sep 16:25
I think sammer has a good point. The broader the base of the pyramid (eg all the kids playing football in their spare time) is likely to produce more good players at or near the top of the pyramid.
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Topic Originator: red-star-par
Date: Thu 14 Sep 18:15
I would say there seems to be a link to being exposed to poverty, injustice, hardship, perhaps even loss in the formitive years which gives people the drive to really push on and be good at something. Possibly that`s why we are seeing so many good players from African nations now.
There was a school of thought that the dominance of black althetes from America and the Caribbean in sports which require strength, power and explosive speed, such as sprinting and boxing may have been down to genetics due to slavery. The slavers enslaved the biggest, strongest men and women they could find in Africa, then transported them by ship on a 8 week journey across an ocean which wiped out around 20 percent of them. This meant only the strongest survived and when they were put to work, the slave owners carried out a selective breeding programme matching their best man and women like livestock. The end result was bigger, more powerful people
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Topic Originator: sammer
Date: Thu 14 Sep 22:58
I think a 20% death rate on slave ships is a little generous to the capitalists. And some captives, maybe the most determined, used to jump off the ships and drown rather than be forced into slavery.
The `slave theory` has some logic in terms of genetic darwinism and therefore might apply to individual sports like boxing and athletics. However it is much more questionable once you address team sports where speed and strength are merely helpful, rather than essential, ingredients.
I`ll pick up on Stanza`a point about the pyramid which echoes my own observations. When I worked in China every youngster seemed to play table tennis during breaks or dinner times. A fellow Scot, who had played for his country and could compete at regional level in China, had to work hard to beat these teenagers. The standard was just so high. Same in Russia when it comes to skating and chess. The average Russian 8 year old skating in a local park where the lake has frozen over looks Olympic standard to me. They can skate backwards and do jumps same as Scots boys of my generation playing football could do keepie uppie and nutmegs.
We are now being asked to worship Bellingham- a boy from a very strong football background in Birmingham- because he can take a pass, turn his opponent and release a measured pass all in one move. Great to watch but Johnny Haynes was doing this in the late 1950s- full games all available on youtube as he helps demolish Brazil 4-2 and USSR 5-0. That`s before Haynes sets about Scotland in the 9-3 game. Hoddle had similar talent but with no greater award for England than Haynes had. Or Rooney after that. I`m looking forward to the next Euros.
sammer
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Topic Originator: GG Riva
Date: Fri 15 Sep 12:24
Some interesting and thoughtful contributions to this thread.
For me, there`s only one race on this planet - the human race, although I will concede that there may be a race of Klingons in some far flung corner of the universe, looking for Captain Kirk and the USS Enterprise, so they can blast it into its constituent atoms.
Not your average Sunday League player.
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