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Topic Originator: PARrot
Date: Tue 7 Nov 22:32
Maybe if they didn`t strangle the life out all domestic competition and got a bit more regular practice against improved sides, they might not keep getting humiliated when they step up.
Acht, maybe they will win 7 0 in Glasgow.
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Topic Originator: Paralex
Date: Wed 8 Nov 00:52
I didn`t think Celtic would get anything less than a hammering in Madrid tonight but the sending off was a poor (some would say corrupt) decision and there was no way back after that.
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Topic Originator: kozmasrightfoot
Date: Wed 8 Nov 01:20
A lovely half hour respite from depression. Ha ha ha.
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Topic Originator: OzPar
Date: Wed 8 Nov 06:21
My best pal back in Scotland is a Celtic fan; we have been great chums for 60 years in everything but football. We usually have a wee chat on Skype on Wednesdays. But I might give that a body swerve today...
:)
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Topic Originator: GG Riva
Date: Wed 8 Nov 06:31
Quote:
Paralex, Wed 8 Nov 00:52
I didn`t think Celtic would get anything less than a hammering in Madrid tonight but the sending off was a poor (some would say corrupt) decision and there was no way back after that.
I can`t agree with you on that, Paralex. It was a poor tackle - rash even. Once VAR got involved, it was always going to be upgraded to a red. These incidents always look worse when a frozen image is looked at. Maeda isn`t a dirty player, but he appeared to ignore the ball. Atletico would have beaten Celtic without the red card, in any case. They are a top side, too good for Celtic. It might have been even worse, but for some smart saves by Hart.
The OP makes a good point. Celtic and Rangers invariably have it all their own way domestically, apart from when they meet, and cannot handle the massive step up when they play in the CL.
Not your average Sunday League player.
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Topic Originator: veteraneastender
Date: Wed 8 Nov 15:16
Looked a clear sending off to me as well.
"Acht, maybe they will win 7 0 in Glasgow."
Strange comment.
Their first encounter was at Celtic Park 25th October, 2-2 and it`s not an aggregate scores two leg competition.
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Topic Originator: kelty_par
Date: Wed 8 Nov 16:39
"It was a poor tackle - rash even."
"Looked a clear sending off to me as well."
Wow. And this from two of the older posters who remember when football was still a contact sport. Let`s look at these in turn - "poor tackle" Not for me, Clive; it`s not even a tackle, he`s trying to block the ball. "rash" Again that`s a negative in my book - rash is more when there`s no control over where you`re going or when you go steaming in at full pelt, neither of which is the case here. "Clear sending off" - It can`t have been that clear otherwise the VAR wouldn`t have needed the referee to review it. Anyway, I can`t see how it`s a clear sending off as it isn`t something that was "A tackle or challenge that endangers the safety of an opponent or uses excessive force or brutality" (IFAB definition of serious foul play. The challenge itself didn`t endanger safely, the excessive force was as a result of the follow through by the Atleti player, and there was no brutality. And I say all that as no fan of Celtic and someone who finds it funny when they lose.
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Topic Originator: Paralex
Date: Wed 8 Nov 16:45
It seems (as usual) that Pars posters are very much divided as to the validity of the red card. Hopefully none were influenced by the 5 minutes of writhing about, pretending serious injury, of the Atletico player. The facts are that any serious thought that Celtic had of competing effectually in the game disappeared at that moment.
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Topic Originator: Parfect69
Date: Wed 8 Nov 17:06
Red for me. No question
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Topic Originator: jake89
Date: Wed 8 Nov 17:17
Quote:
PARrot, Tue 7 Nov 22:32
Maybe if they didn`t strangle the life out all domestic competition and got a bit more regular practice against improved sides, they might not keep getting humiliated when they step up.
Acht, maybe they will win 7 0 in Glasgow.
Exactly this. Both sides of the Glasgow duo have been happy to weaken the domestic competition for decades now. It`s likely the big clubs will always be from the larger cities of Glasgow, Edinburgh, Aberdeen and Dundee, but outside of Glasgow there is limited competition nowadays. As much as I`m sure Celtic and Rangers fans love goading other fans, they seem to be missing how hollow these victories are.
Neither club will ever get into the English leagues. They`ll also never be able to compete in Europe when they go from playing St Johnstone one week to Chelsea the next. The only solution is to foster better competition by building a league that allows the smaller teams to develop. That might mean the ugly sisters don`t get a 1-2 finish every year, but it should mean they`re better prepared for a potentially highly profitable European journey.
Sadly, that pair, like their origins, are stuck in the past. As long as they get to play each other a hundred times a year it`s fine.
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Topic Originator: PARrot
Date: Wed 8 Nov 17:27
Quote:
veteraneastender, Wed 8 Nov 15:16
Looked a clear sending off to me as well.
"Acht, maybe they will win 7 0 in Glasgow."
Strange comment.
Their first encounter was at Celtic Park 25th October, 2-2 and it`s not an aggregate scores two leg competition.
Im not really following it Vee. I dont watch much football besides the Pars and Scotland.
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Topic Originator: GG Riva
Date: Wed 8 Nov 18:02
Quote:
kelty_par, Wed 8 Nov 16:39
"It was a poor tackle - rash even."
"Looked a clear sending off to me as well."
Wow. And this from two of the older posters who remember when football was still a contact sport. Let`s look at these in turn - "poor tackle" Not for me, Clive; it`s not even a tackle, he`s trying to block the ball. "rash" Again that`s a negative in my book - rash is more when there`s no control over where you`re going or when you go steaming in at full pelt, neither of which is the case here. "Clear sending off" - It can`t have been that clear otherwise the VAR wouldn`t have needed the referee to review it. Anyway, I can`t see how it`s a clear sending off as it isn`t something that was "A tackle or challenge that endangers the safety of an opponent or uses excessive force or brutality" (IFAB definition of serious foul play. The challenge itself didn`t endanger safely, the excessive force was as a result of the follow through by the Atleti player, and there was no brutality. And I say all that as no fan of Celtic and someone who finds it funny when they lose.
I`ve had a rethink since I posted this morning, KP. It never occurred to me that Maeda was merely just trying to block the pass , and both players arrived at speed. No way did I think Maeda was deliberately trying to injure his opponent. He`s not a thug by any stretch. Of course, the still pic looks far worse than the incident at normal speed.
Not your average Sunday League player.
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Topic Originator: dafc
Date: Thu 9 Nov 13:17
Red card had a influence in the game for sure, very soft but slowed down/still images makes lots of tackles look worse, you cant argue with Rodgers assessment that it is like a video game sometimes. In real time didnt think it was a red.
totally different level playing elite teams like Athletico,
Post Edited (Thu 09 Nov 13:20)
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Topic Originator: da_no_1
Date: Thu 9 Nov 13:28
Never a red card.
The subsequent humping was still funny tho š
"Some days will stay a 1000 years, some pass like the flash of a spark"
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Topic Originator: jake89
Date: Thu 9 Nov 13:55
But surely this should be a lesson to them. They go to play in Europe and face teams with far greater resources and have borderline decisions go against them. Sound familiar?
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Topic Originator: Paralex
Date: Thu 9 Nov 14:16
Looks like I am not alone in concluding that there was severe intimidating behaviour directed towards the referee by Simeone and Co. in the Atletico dug out, as he made his way towards the tv screen. If the referee did have doubts about the red card, Simeone`s theatrical histrionics must have helped put those to bed. It would have taken real strength of character to stick to his original decision and sadly he didn`t have that.
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Topic Originator: saltonsgonagetu
Date: Thu 9 Nov 15:03
Quote:
Paralex, Thu 9 Nov 14:16
Looks like I am not alone in concluding that there was severe intimidating behaviour directed towards the referee by Simeone and Co. in the Atletico dug out, as he made his way towards the tv screen. If the referee did have doubts about the red card, Simeone`s theatrical histrionics must have helped put those to bed. It would have taken real strength of character to stick to his original decision and sadly he didn`t have that.
I think you are doing all the top referees a disservice, if you think they are that easily swayed to give a certain decision
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Topic Originator: shellypar
Date: Thu 9 Nov 15:08
Quote:
Paralex, Thu 9 Nov 14:16
Looks like I am not alone in concluding that there was severe intimidating behaviour directed towards the referee by Simeone and Co. in the Atletico dug out, as he made his way towards the tv screen. If the referee did have doubts about the red card, Simeone`s theatrical histrionics must have helped put those to bed. It would have taken real strength of character to stick to his original decision and sadly he didn`t have that.
Referees really dont get intimidated i would have to say, actually if u shout and bawl at them they are more likely to give decisions against u, in my experience anyways
COYP
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Topic Originator: Paralex
Date: Thu 9 Nov 16:19
Sorry chaps, I would have to say, rather naive outlook there. Of course it has an effect. Why would they do it if they didn`t think it would sway the referee. Player writhing on the deck for 5 minutes and officials raging and gesticulating in the managers area. Player gets up with no I`ll effects and carries on as if nothing happened. Even Ally McCoist was coming out on Celtic`s side.
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Topic Originator: GG Riva
Date: Thu 9 Nov 16:30
Quote:
Paralex, Thu 9 Nov 14:16
Looks like I am not alone in concluding that there was severe intimidating behaviour directed towards the referee by Simeone and Co. in the Atletico dug out, as he made his way towards the tv screen. If the referee did have doubts about the red card, Simeone`s theatrical histrionics must have helped put those to bed. It would have taken real strength of character to stick to his original decision and sadly he didn`t have that.
I think the top refs are unlikely to be intimidated by any manager, but it doesn`t stop them trying - think about the likes of Fergie, Mourinho and Wenger. Simeone is certainly a fully paid-up member of that club.
If the ref had doubts about the red card, I`d lay the blame for him issuing it very squarely at the door of his VAR colleague. When the match official is asked to go over and have another look at the incident, the unspoken suggestion is that he`s made "a clear and obvious error" and this is his chance to rectify. How many refs have you seen that have stuck to their guns after going over to the monitor? I can recall one in the EPL. It may have been Michael Oliver.
I tend to agree with Shellypar in that any histrionics from a manager are more likely to harden the refs attitude and be counter productive. Referees are only human after all. Speaking from personal experience as a young referee, I can say with absolute certainty that getting grief from a manager or coach never, ever made me more likely to give his team the benefit of the doubt - on the contrary. Same with mouthy players. Best player I ever refereed was Jim Leishman, If I gave a decision in his team`s favour, I`d get "Well played ref, good decision. It`s great to have a ref who keeps up with the play." If it went against his team he`d just say, very meekly, "I don`t agree with that one, ref." š
Not your average Sunday League player.
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Topic Originator: Paralex
Date: Thu 9 Nov 16:43
Aye but Jim was and is a gentleman. I suppose the stigma as regards Atletico Madrid stays in my thoughts because I was at the infamous game at Celtic Park all those years ago. The leopard hasn`t changed it`s spots and for me Simeone typifies their attitude. Of course there may be a small degree of prejudice that blinkers my point of view but thankfully as in years gone by, when I think they got their just reward against Aston Villa, in the final, there are a host of better teams waiting in the wings to halt their progress this year.
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Topic Originator: wee eck
Date: Thu 9 Nov 17:11
Whilst I like to see Scottish teams doing well in Europe there`s nothing wrong with seeing the OF and their fans getting a taste of their own medicine now and again.
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Topic Originator: Jeffery
Date: Thu 9 Nov 19:07
`Lower domestic standard of competition` is always on the Rangers and Celtic poor European performance bingo card.
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Topic Originator: Paralex
Date: Thu 9 Nov 19:55
Yes Jeffrey for me, the acid test has always been how Scottish teams do in Europe and it seems that we are now failing to make any impression at all, the old firm included.
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Topic Originator: alwaysaPar
Date: Thu 9 Nov 20:53
Rangers currently ranked 29th in the club coefficient for UEFA......
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Topic Originator: veteraneastender
Date: Thu 9 Nov 21:10
Quote:
Paralex, Thu 9 Nov 16:43
Aye but Jim was and is a gentleman. I suppose the stigma as regards Atletico Madrid stays in my thoughts because I was at the infamous game at Celtic Park all those years ago. The leopard hasn`t changed it`s spots and for me Simeone typifies their attitude. Of course there may be a small degree of prejudice that blinkers my point of view but thankfully as in years gone by, when I think they got their just reward against Aston Villa, in the final, there are a host of better teams waiting in the wings to halt their progress this year.
Bayern Munich weāre a goal down to Atletico in the 1974 EC final with minutes left to play until their defender went on a breenge forward and cracked in a long range equaliser.
Bayern skooshed the replay 4-0.
Justice was done.
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Topic Originator: Raymie the Legend
Date: Thu 9 Nov 22:23
I donāt buy that they are playing in a sub standard league and they canāt compete financially.
PSV and Feyenoord are doing very well. Copenhagen are doing well.
Are we saying that these teams have a bigger budget than the old firm and that their leagues are much stronger than the spl ?
It`s bloody tough being a legend
Ron Atkinson - 1983
Post Edited (Thu 09 Nov 22:23)
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Topic Originator: Paralex
Date: Thu 9 Nov 22:32
Aye, I`ll give ye that alwaysapar a wee chink of light down Copeland Road way tonight. But somehow not yet the same drive as two years ago. Early days though. And yes the Atletico European cup final was against Bayern in 1974. And Bayern were the opposition when Aston Villa won in 1982. Bit of a blur to me in the foggy mists of time.
Post Edited (Thu 09 Nov 22:35)
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Topic Originator: jake89
Date: Thu 9 Nov 22:33
The Dutch league historically is more a three leg race than the two we have in Scotland but if you look at their league right now it is far tighter than the Scottish Premiership. Any of the top 4 could take the top spot and the club who have been champions most are sat 11th. They also go for an 18 team set up rather than the ridiculous 12 teams we have. Why do we have that 12 team setup again? That`s right, to suit the ugly sisters. They are the makers of their own downfall.
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Topic Originator: alwaysaPar
Date: Thu 9 Nov 23:06
Quote:
jake89, Thu 9 Nov 22:33
The Dutch league historically is more a three leg race than the two we have in Scotland but if you look at their league right now it is far tighter than the Scottish Premiership. Any of the top 4 could take the top spot and the club who have been champions most are sat 11th. They also go for an 18 team set up rather than the ridiculous 12 teams we have. Why do we have that 12 team setup again? That`s right, to suit the ugly sisters. They are the makers of their own downfall.
I think you`ll find that`s the owners of the clubs that keep voting for that set up, as the supposedly extra income for 2 extra old firm games helps their balance sheet
Ask a majority of rangers or celtic fans and you`ll find that they would prefer a bigger league
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Topic Originator: jake89
Date: Fri 10 Nov 07:57
Quote:
alwaysaPar, Thu 9 Nov 23:06
Quote:
jake89, Thu 9 Nov 22:33
The Dutch league historically is more a three leg race than the two we have in Scotland but if you look at their league right now it is far tighter than the Scottish Premiership. Any of the top 4 could take the top spot and the club who have been champions most are sat 11th. They also go for an 18 team set up rather than the ridiculous 12 teams we have. Why do we have that 12 team setup again? That`s right, to suit the ugly sisters. They are the makers of their own downfall.
I think you`ll find that`s the owners of the clubs that keep voting for that set up, as the supposedly extra income for 2 extra old firm games helps their balance sheet
Ask a majority of rangers or celtic fans and you`ll find that they would prefer a bigger league
Never suggested it was the fans š
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Topic Originator: alwaysaPar
Date: Fri 10 Nov 08:28
Quote:
jake89, Fri 10 Nov 07:57
Quote:
alwaysaPar, Thu 9 Nov 23:06
Quote:
jake89, Thu 9 Nov 22:33
The Dutch league historically is more a three leg race than the two we have in Scotland but if you look at their league right now it is far tighter than the Scottish Premiership. Any of the top 4 could take the top spot and the club who have been champions most are sat 11th. They also go for an 18 team set up rather than the ridiculous 12 teams we have. Why do we have that 12 team setup again? That`s right, to suit the ugly sisters. They are the makers of their own downfall.
I think you`ll find that`s the owners of the clubs that keep voting for that set up, as the supposedly extra income for 2 extra old firm games helps their balance sheet
Ask a majority of rangers or celtic fans and you`ll find that they would prefer a bigger league
Never suggested it was the fans š
Never said you did š
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Topic Originator: DunPar
Date: Wed 15 Nov 20:23
What is it that Celtic and Rangers do nowadays to āstrangle the life out of domestic competitionā? At one time they used to sign all the best Scottish players from Scottish clubs but I donāt even know that they can be accused of that now except maybe Turnbull and Taylor ? Weāre actually a recent beneficiary of them unloading talent and it could be argued that theyāve improved our national team as Scottish talent heads south or to the continent rather than try to get a game for either of themā¦ā¦..maybe Scottish football isnāt great because we simply donāt have the population to support enough bigger clubs to compete with the old firm ? No other club in Scotland is ever likely to attract 50,000 gatesā¦ā¦.
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Topic Originator: jake89
Date: Wed 15 Nov 20:33
There are a few problems with that pair:
1. Financial dominance - they have the best finances so can spend more on one player than the rest of the league spend on an entire team.
2. Control over the league - Scotland is a small country and arguably there could be two leagues of 20 (or a 20 and a 22 if we keep the current status quo). This won`t happen as that pair want to play each other 40000 times a year.
3. Fan power - Being big means they attract way more glory hunters meaning less income for the smaller clubs. How many of their tops do you see worn around Dunfermline, Stirling, Inverness etc where they all have local clubs?
There ARE some benefits too though.
1. Both internationally known, Celtic probably more than Rangers.
2. They bring TV attention.
3. They help easily identify if you`re in a bad area of town by walking about in their Celtic/Rangers top on even when they haven`t been watching or playing football.
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Topic Originator: alwaysaPar
Date: Wed 15 Nov 20:39
Quote:
jake89, Wed 15 Nov 20:33
There are a few problems with that pair:
1. Financial dominance - they have the best finances so can spend more on one player than the rest of the league spend on an entire team.
2. Control over the league - Scotland is a small country and arguably there could be two leagues of 20 (or a 20 and a 22 if we keep the current status quo). This won`t happen as that pair want to play each other 40000 times a year.
3. Fan power - Being big means they attract way more glory hunters meaning less income for the smaller clubs. How many of their tops do you see worn around Dunfermline, Stirling, Inverness etc where they all have local clubs?
There ARE some benefits too though.
1. Both internationally known, Celtic probably more than Rangers.
2. They bring TV attention.
3. They help easily identify if you`re in a bad area of town by walking about in their Celtic/Rangers top on even when they haven`t been watching or playing football.
Unfortunately your point number 2 on the problems isn`t down to them wanting to play each other a lot, it is down to the owners of the rest of the teams who want the extra 2 home games against them
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Topic Originator: LochgellyAlbert
Date: Thu 16 Nov 11:44
On point No 2, are the home teams not restricting the number of tickets issued to OF?
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