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Topic Originator: red-star-par
Date: Thu 1 Aug 23:52
This is a long one.....I`ve been thinking about this a fair bit recently, the strategy the club has for the future. I`ve got to admit I`ve been a wee bit scunnered over the last couple of years, mostly due to what feels like the poor entertainment served up by the first team but also a climate of chronic underachievement among the players here. But, I`ve come to the conclusion we need to get on board with the clubs plan for the future, based on the Academy.
There has not been many over the past 15 years that have come here and improved as players. Lots of plodding pros, treading water. For me, it seems only under Stevie Crawford did it look like players in the first team were actually improving, with Edwards and Nesbit in particular really coming on leaps and bounds.
We have had some pretty good players during that time who didn`t do much while here but have been much better at other clubs. Lawrence Shankland, Shaun Rooney, Scott Robinson, James Vincent, Danny Armstrong, Danny Devine, Aiden Connolly, Robbie Muirhead, Josh Coley, Lewis Mayo, Fraser Murray, Scott Banks, Kevin O`Hara, Ross Graham, Liam Polworth, Graham Dorrans, Reece Cole. Bobby Kamwa. Admittedly many of them were young, loans and only here for a short time, but is there something wrong about this place that it effectively stalls a career to come here?
While it`s frustrating that we haven`t seen much movement in this transfer window, it has got me thinking, maybe the board`s plan is the way we need to go. We have gone through the motions getting journeymen players in and it`s got us nowhere. Maybe they are right in going for a small squad supported by Academy graduates. Investing in the infrastructure, and most of all, getting some good coaches in that can really start to improve players. We have brought in John McLaughlan as Head of Professional Development, a real coup after decades involved with Celtic and Hearts.
We do have what seems like an exciting batch of youngsters just about to come through- Taylor Sutherland, Andy Tod, Ewan McLeod, Sam Young, Jake Sutherland, John Tod. If we supplement these guys by picking up players that are surplus to requirements as they reach the end of their academy journey at bigger clubs, then this might provide us with a conveyor belt of players to supplement the first team squad.
While some might say that we haven`t produced much lately, in the last 15 years we have actually produced quite a few solid professionals who could still do a turn for us now. Imagine what we could produce with a proper academy and investment in the coaching and development of the young players....Jordan White, Shaun Byrne, Ross Millen, Callum Smith, Lewis Martin, Ryan Williamson, Lewis McCann, Paul Allan, Matty Todd, PJ Crossan, Kevin McHattie, Blair Henderson, Scott Mercer, Lewis Spence, Finn Graham, Stuart Urquhart, Stuart Morrison, Cammy Gill, Ryan Goodfellow, Ryan Thomson, Nicky Phinn, Paul Willis, Kerr Young. Admittedly, some have been more successful than others but all have carved out good professional careers, imagine if we had really invested in them and given them a chance to progress here?
In short, I think we need to give the board a bit of slack here, sure things aren`t going as we would like, but they have a plan. If we buy into It, it might just work
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Topic Originator: nick_dafc1
Date: Fri 2 Aug 00:23
Quote:
red-star-par, Thu 1 Aug 23:52
This is a long one.....I`ve been thinking about this a fair bit recently, the strategy the club has for the future. I`ve got to admit I`ve been a wee bit scunnered over the last couple of years, mostly due to what feels like the poor entertainment served up by the first team but also a climate of chronic underachievement among the players here. But, I`ve come to the conclusion we need to get on board with the clubs plan for the future, based on the Academy.
There has not been many over the past 15 years that have come here and improved as players. Lots of plodding pros, treading water. For me, it seems only under Stevie Crawford did it look like players in the first team were actually improving, with Edwards and Nesbit in particular really coming on leaps and bounds.
We have had some pretty good players during that time who didn`t do much while here but have been much better at other clubs. Lawrence Shankland, Shaun Rooney, Scott Robinson, James Vincent, Danny Armstrong, Danny Devine, Aiden Connolly, Robbie Muirhead, Josh Coley, Lewis Mayo, Fraser Murray, Scott Banks, Kevin O`Hara, Ross Graham, Liam Polworth, Graham Dorrans, Reece Cole. Bobby Kamwa. Admittedly many of them were young, loans and only here for a short time, but is there something wrong about this place that it effectively stalls a career to come here?
While it`s frustrating that we haven`t seen much movement in this transfer window, it has got me thinking, maybe the board`s plan is the way we need to go. We have gone through the motions getting journeymen players in and it`s got us nowhere. Maybe they are right in going for a small squad supported by Academy graduates. Investing in the infrastructure, and most of all, getting some good coaches in that can really start to improve players. We have brought in John McLaughlan as Head of Professional Development, a real coup after decades involved with Celtic and Hearts.
We do have what seems like an exciting batch of youngsters just about to come through- Taylor Sutherland, Andy Tod, Ewan McLeod, Sam Young, Jake Sutherland, John Tod. If we supplement these guys by picking up players that are surplus to requirements as they reach the end of their academy journey at bigger clubs, then this might provide us with a conveyor belt of players to supplement the first team squad.
While some might say that we haven`t produced much lately, in the last 15 years we have actually produced quite a few solid professionals who could still do a turn for us now. Imagine what we could produce with a proper academy and investment in the coaching and development of the young players....Jordan White, Shaun Byrne, Ross Millen, Callum Smith, Lewis Martin, Ryan Williamson, Lewis McCann, Paul Allan, Matty Todd, PJ Crossan, Kevin McHattie, Blair Henderson, Scott Mercer, Lewis Spence, Finn Graham, Stuart Urquhart, Stuart Morrison, Cammy Gill, Ryan Goodfellow, Ryan Thomson, Nicky Phinn, Paul Willis, Kerr Young. Admittedly, some have been more successful than others but all have carved out good professional careers, imagine if we had really invested in them and given them a chance to progress here?
In short, I think we need to give the board a bit of slack here, sure things aren`t going as we would like, but they have a plan. If we buy into It, it might just work
We won`t have money for an academy when we end up in League one though
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Topic Originator: hudza
Date: Fri 2 Aug 05:26
Football is ultimately about how the first team performs. It’s absolutely pointless having Braw training facilities if the first team is dross and you are unwilling to invest in it.
This team as it stands will go down unless it gets improved and everyone can see it.
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Topic Originator: grelin
Date: Fri 2 Aug 06:41
A well thought out and presented post Red-Star-Par, which won`t please everyone, but it will certainly give food for thought. I agree we bring in some dross at times and allow seasoned pros to ride out their career which does not lend its hand to entertaining football.
I think the academy is the way forward, but I think we are perhaps a couple of years away from where we would like it to be. Therefore there is a need meantime to address our perceived weak squad his season and dare I say better use in the future of the funds available and the identification of suitable targets.
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Topic Originator: OorWullie
Date: Fri 2 Aug 07:38
With respect, the players that you have rattled off have hardly had stellar careers in Scottish football or played hundreds of games for the pars or hardly generated any sales for us now, have they ?
To nick’s point, we can’t afford it now and we have just had a season in the championship where we have lost another shed full of money
Post Edited (Fri 02 Aug 08:07)
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Topic Originator: wee eck
Date: Fri 2 Aug 08:10
I think the truth is that most fans aren`t that interested in the future other than the coming season but the directors have to look farther ahead.
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Topic Originator: answer
Date: Fri 2 Aug 08:38
What makes you think that about the fans wee eck?
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Topic Originator: Berry
Date: Fri 2 Aug 08:39
Post Edited (Fri 02 Aug 08:39)
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Topic Originator: KirklistonPar
Date: Fri 2 Aug 08:46
Great post red star par. The issues I see us having with the academy are.
Can we attract and keep good enough coaches, it won’t be cheap.
Will we be able to attract the youngsters we want if the first team is struggling week in week out and playing boring football?
Can we afford to keep a hold of these players when they graduate, if we start producing quality players then we will need to start paying a salary that keeps them at our club. They’re not gonna turn down more money if other club come poaching our young talent.
The academy is a great idea but like everything in life it costs money at every stage and the cost will increase as the player progresses. The question is how do we fund this? Especially as the last few seasons we’ve struggled to bring in extra cash via poor cup runs, reaching Championship playoff, or selling on any of our best players for big money. I honestly don’t think we have the money to produce a player that’s gonna be any better than what currently comes of any other academy.
Post Edited (Fri 02 Aug 08:48)
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Topic Originator: Gaz3822
Date: Fri 2 Aug 09:17
That`s fine supporting the academy, but we also really need to establish ourselves in the Championship at the same time.
We`ve always been a yoyo club between Prem and Championship, the board can`t allow us to be yoyoing between Champ and 1st whilst waiting on the fruits to come through, or else some our fan base will lose interest.
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Topic Originator: jake89
Date: Fri 2 Aug 09:28
My view is it`s more beneficial on the training base side. We went years moving about places. There`s now a dedicated space. Yes, it`s just a couple of pitches right now but I can develop.
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Topic Originator: wee eck
Date: Fri 2 Aug 09:33
`Topic Originator: answer like
Date: Fri 2 Aug 08:38
What makes you think that about the fans wee eck?`
Reading this Forum.
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Topic Originator: da_no_1
Date: Fri 2 Aug 09:38
Quote:
Gaz3822, Fri 2 Aug 09:17
That`s fine supporting the academy, but we also really need to establish ourselves in the Championship at the same time.
We`ve always been a yoyo club between Prem and Championship, the board can`t allow us to be yoyoing between Champ and 1st whilst waiting on the fruits to come through, or else some our fan base will lose interest.
This 150%.
3000 season ticket holders and however many walk ups deserve an established championship club as an absolute minimum.
"Some days will stay a 1000 years, some pass like the flash of a spark"
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Topic Originator: Westies squint kicks
Date: Fri 2 Aug 09:41
Such is the lack of ambition/investment in the current squad supporters understandably are expecting big things of any "academy".
Yet the feedback from the last supporter/club get together was "fans need to temper their enthusiasm about the academy".
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Topic Originator: P
Date: Fri 2 Aug 09:44
I see they are trying to make the academy (although the flyer says training ground - not sure if there’s a difference) generate some additional income with a ‘train with the pros’ day. £60 a kid to train with Hamilton, Fisher and Chalmers
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Topic Originator: KirklistonPar
Date: Fri 2 Aug 09:46
I suppose fans are used to short term goals, like new players in for the next season, cover players for injuries sustained during the season and played to improve the squad in the Xmas window. Changes in management when required. I suppose very few of us are thinking sacrifice the potential of the first team for a few years while we develop some u18 into first team players.
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Topic Originator: KirklistonPar
Date: Fri 2 Aug 09:49
will need to refund the £60 when either Hamilton, Fisher or Chalmers get injured doing the training.
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Topic Originator: king lad
Date: Fri 2 Aug 09:49
It`s a difficult balance to strike especially in the Scottish championship given it tends to be very competitive with just 10 teams. However, whether the board likes it or not, the fans especially this season with two main rivals, expect to be at least competitive with those sides.
As has been said, fans won`t give a toss about long term projects if in the short term the club is battling relegation from the championship in successive seasons. Which looks a distinct possibility given the concerning performances in the league cup.
Of course it would be fantastic to have a conveyor belt of youth come through and keep us as a stable premiership side whilst also having sellable assets, is that realistic or a fantasy? I`d argue the latter is much more likely. I really hope the club surprises the fans and has a strong start to the season which would quickly turn the mood around, especially if there were positive results in the opening two league games.
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Topic Originator: Gaz3822
Date: Fri 2 Aug 09:51
You start sacrificing the 1st team and before you know it we`re in the 2nd division
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Topic Originator: 1985Par
Date: Fri 2 Aug 09:58
Controversially I’m not a believer in academics. The notion that it will be a conveyor belt of talent for the first team is a myth that few, if any teams, can dispel. Fine in theory and might work for bigger clubs - Aberdeen can point to the 7 million Liverpool payed for Calvin Ramsey ( now at Wigan btw) as an example but the real beneficiaries of Rangers and Celtic academies are teams like ourselves. The vast majority of boys we invest in will go on to play junior at best and who’s to say that the odd gem like Matty Todd wouldn’t have made it if he’d played with a decent boys club till he was 18 anyway?
Empowering and forging links with local boys clubs is the better, more cost effective route for clubs like ours where every penny is a prisoner. This and debunking the myth that a youngster will only ever make it as a footballer if he has a coach drowning in certificates telling him how to play from the age of 8. If anyone needs someone to tell a youngster what to do when they receive the ball, he’s never going to make it as a footballer. You cannot teach the raw talent that’s needed to be a footballer at pro level but you do need to create an environment to allow it to flourish. That doesn’t have to be an expensive youth academy.
We’d attract better players in the long term by investing the money in the 1st team.
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Topic Originator: NW 1966
Date: Fri 2 Aug 10:01
Our business model is failing, evidence being 3 consecutive seasons of massive losses. Now everything is being nailed down from a cost perspective. Until we live within our means we`ll have issues. All about strategy and priorities.
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Topic Originator: Bannockburn Par
Date: Fri 2 Aug 10:08
When you read Raith Rovers are still looking to add more players you know it’s going to be a very very long season at East End park.
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Topic Originator: Andrew283
Date: Fri 2 Aug 10:24
Quote:
Bannockburn Par, Fri 2 Aug 10:08
When you read Raith Rovers are still looking to add more players you know it’s going to be a very very long season at East End park.
It`s actually tragic that I`m looking at clubs like Raith, St Mirren and even bloody Ayr with envy. We still need about 4 new FIRST TEAM players if we are looking at anything other than a bottom table fight.
It`s pathetic and I hope the entire board attend to hear how most fans feel
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Topic Originator: Raymie the Legend
Date: Fri 2 Aug 10:25
Quote:
1985Par, Fri 2 Aug 09:58
Controversially I’m not a believer in academics. The notion that it will be a conveyor belt of talent for the first team is a myth that few, if any teams, can dispel. Fine in theory and might work for bigger clubs - Aberdeen can point to the 7 million Liverpool payed for Calvin Ramsey ( now at Wigan btw) as an example but the real beneficiaries of Rangers and Celtic academies are teams like ourselves. The vast majority of boys we invest in will go on to play junior at best and who’s to say that the odd gem like Matty Todd wouldn’t have made it if he’d played with a decent boys club till he was 18 anyway?
Empowering and forging links with local boys clubs is the better, more cost effective route for clubs like ours where every penny is a prisoner. This and debunking the myth that a youngster will only ever make it as a footballer if he has a coach drowning in certificates telling him how to play from the age of 8. If anyone needs someone to tell a youngster what to do when they receive the ball, he’s never going to make it as a footballer. You cannot teach the raw talent that’s needed to be a footballer at pro level but you do need to create an environment to allow it to flourish. That doesn’t have to be an expensive youth academy.
We’d attract better players in the long term by investing the money in the 1st team.
Excellent post.
It`s bloody tough being a legend
Ron Atkinson - 1983
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Topic Originator: wee eck
Date: Fri 2 Aug 10:51
Are those who are against having our own academy also against having our own training facility? I wonder how much the extra cost is of having an academy at your own training facility.
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Topic Originator: KirklistonPar
Date: Fri 2 Aug 11:05
I don’t think anyone is against the idea of our own training facility or academy. It’s more of a financing issue and is the time right to be investing in one when we’re no where near being established in the Championship.
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Topic Originator: wee eck
Date: Fri 2 Aug 11:09
Hasn`t the major investment already been made so it`s an academic (sorry!) question?
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Topic Originator: saltonsgonagetu
Date: Fri 2 Aug 11:20
It`s a bit disappointing the training centre can`t host reserve games due to lack of supporters facilities, to look at it it`s a pitch and portacabins ,not exactly state of the art or really fit for all purposes.
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Topic Originator: Alter Ego
Date: Fri 2 Aug 11:27
Totally Agree with everything 1985Par has posted
Post Edited (Fri 02 Aug 11:28)
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Topic Originator: parsfan
Date: Fri 2 Aug 11:47
Quote:
wee eck, Fri 2 Aug 11:09
Hasn`t the major investment already been made so it`s an academic (sorry!) question?
We keep hearing that the Lifeline money is going to the academy. Is it too simplistic to assume that up to £200,0000 a year less for other budgets?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The universe is ruled by chance and indifference
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Topic Originator: wee eck
Date: Fri 2 Aug 11:55
We must be saving money by not having to pay for the use of outside facilities.
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Topic Originator: OorWullie
Date: Fri 2 Aug 12:01
Quote:
wee eck, Fri 2 Aug 11:55
We must be saving money by not having to pay for the use of outside facilities.
Correct, so next year we will be turning a million pound loss into a profit, as we won’t have to pay for outside facilities and we won’t be in league one and miss out on play off matches - quoting Mr Cook.
I’m awaiting his spin for another million pound loss come Feb
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Topic Originator: desparado
Date: Fri 2 Aug 12:10
Topic Originator: parsfan like
Date: Fri 2 Aug 11:47
Quote:
wee eck, Fri 2 Aug 11:09
Hasn`t the major investment already been made so it`s an academic (sorry!) question?
We keep hearing that the Lifeline money is going to the academy. Is it too simplistic to assume that up to £200,0000 a year less for other budgets?
The lifeline money should be going to costs for EEP and first team and all costs associated with the academy project being funded by our Investors. They will take the 50/50 money next the way things are going.
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Topic Originator: wee eck
Date: Fri 2 Aug 12:44
It doesn`t really matter where the money comes from or goes to. If there`s an overall loss it`s the owners who end up financing it.
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Topic Originator: OorWullie
Date: Fri 2 Aug 13:13
Quote:
wee eck, Fri 2 Aug 12:44
It doesn`t really matter where the money comes from or goes to. If there`s an overall loss it`s the owners who end up financing it.
That’s true but looks like they have said no more
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Topic Originator: Andrew283
Date: Fri 2 Aug 13:18
Investing in an unlikely chance of making money in the future is just plain daft when you don`t invest in the current team.
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Topic Originator: The Boss
Date: Fri 2 Aug 13:45
Quote:
1985Par, Fri 02 Aug 09:58
Controversially I’m not a believer in academics. The notion that it will be a conveyor belt of talent for the first team is a myth that few, if any teams, can dispel. Fine in theory and might work for bigger clubs - Aberdeen can point to the 7 million Liverpool payed for Calvin Ramsey ( now at Wigan btw) as an example but the real beneficiaries of Rangers and Celtic academies are teams like ourselves. The vast majority of boys we invest in will go on to play junior at best and who’s to say that the odd gem like Matty Todd wouldn’t have made it if he’d played with a decent boys club till he was 18 anyway?
Empowering and forging links with local boys clubs is the better, more cost effective route for clubs like ours where every penny is a prisoner. This and debunking the myth that a youngster will only ever make it as a footballer if he has a coach drowning in certificates telling him how to play from the age of 8. If anyone needs someone to tell a youngster what to do when they receive the ball, he’s never going to make it as a footballer. You cannot teach the raw talent that’s needed to be a footballer at pro level but you do need to create an environment to allow it to flourish. That doesn’t have to be an expensive youth academy.
We’d attract better players in the long term by investing the money in the 1st team.
Great post.
I like black and white (dreaming of black and white)
You like black and white
Run run away
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Topic Originator: cammypar 1995
Date: Fri 2 Aug 14:09
Quote:
wee eck, Fri 2 Aug 11:55
We must be saving money by not having to pay for the use of outside facilities.
But we will do for the reserve games again.
c'mon the pars
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Topic Originator: weemike
Date: Fri 2 Aug 14:42
Quote:
1985Par, Fri 2 Aug 09:58
Controversially I’m not a believer in academics. The notion that it will be a conveyor belt of talent for the first team is a myth that few, if any teams, can dispel. Fine in theory and might work for bigger clubs - Aberdeen can point to the 7 million Liverpool payed for Calvin Ramsey ( now at Wigan btw) as an example but the real beneficiaries of Rangers and Celtic academies are teams like ourselves. The vast majority of boys we invest in will go on to play junior at best and who’s to say that the odd gem like Matty Todd wouldn’t have made it if he’d played with a decent boys club till he was 18 anyway?
Empowering and forging links with local boys clubs is the better, more cost effective route for clubs like ours where every penny is a prisoner. This and debunking the myth that a youngster will only ever make it as a footballer if he has a coach drowning in certificates telling him how to play from the age of 8. If anyone needs someone to tell a youngster what to do when they receive the ball, he’s never going to make it as a footballer. You cannot teach the raw talent that’s needed to be a footballer at pro level but you do need to create an environment to allow it to flourish. That doesn’t have to be an expensive youth academy.
We’d attract better players in the long term by investing the money in the 1st team.
The point is that the academy trains players to be great, not attract great players (which would be nice). The level of which we will be with the youngsters in the team will be our level.
To say that youngsters don`t need to be coached with the ball is absolutely false.
Raw talent is not needed, although it is a very big bonus. Like anything in life, you can saturate and train youngsters to be excellent at something.
Hardwork and commitment is what is needed most.
Most first teams won`t naturally promote from the academy unless they are exceptional where as we will be promoting a lot and will get a reputation for doing so.
We can continue down the road of every other professional club in Scotland and be in a system of peaks and troughs for ever more( of which st mirren are peaking and we are at a low )
Or we can lay the foundations (at a cost) and try something different, which the payoff could be huge in more ways than one.
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Topic Originator: Berkey
Date: Fri 2 Aug 15:39
What I don’t get in this day and age? If we get a 15 year old who looks great what’s to stop the old firm or Edinburgh clubs or any of the clubs down south from paying a pittance and taking them? Chances are they would have snapped him up before we even get near him for our academy.
How do we get the next Scott brown? I just don’t think we do.
If your a decent young player coming through, why would you sign a long term deal with us? Could we even offer a long term deal? Would it be the same as what happened with Edwards? Couple of decent years then pinched for peanuts as they move into last year of contract or even leave and we get a small development fee.
Gone are the days of us getting something near the £600k we got for shields and McNamara. Our best and most valuable young player came from Celtic and us having an academy has made zero difference in getting him or any improvement he has made.
The post below replying to me is by one of .nets finest champions of mediocrity!
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Topic Originator: weemike
Date: Fri 2 Aug 15:51
Otoo cost a fee and will be on a couple of grand a week.
The youngsters will be on youth terms until they are of school leaving age.
I`m not sure of the legality of it all. But if we are known to not fear putting 18/19 year olds in the lineup, then they might stick around to try and get into our first team.
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Topic Originator: Berkey
Date: Fri 2 Aug 16:16
So wee Mike, if your a really good youngster why not go to the old firm or the likes, earn some decent money for a year or 2 then if it doesn’t work out drop down into the likes of us and stay full time.
Makes more sense than coming here first then if it doesn’t work out where do you go and you won’t have earned nearly as much.
We’re really just hoping the club clubs miss one and we happen to be the club that snaps him up.
The post below replying to me is by one of .nets finest champions of mediocrity!
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Topic Originator: da_no_1
Date: Fri 2 Aug 16:19
Quote:
weemike, Fri 2 Aug 15:51
Otoo cost a fee and will be on a couple of grand a week.
The youngsters will be on youth terms until they are of school leaving age.
I`m not sure of the legality of it all. But if we are known to not fear putting 18/19 year olds in the lineup, then they might stick around to try and get into our first team.
That last bit is a good point 👉
"Some days will stay a 1000 years, some pass like the flash of a spark"
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Topic Originator: jake89
Date: Fri 2 Aug 16:21
By the logic above, why do Celtic bother too then? Why not just utilise the Manchester City academy and get players that way?
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Topic Originator: weemike
Date: Fri 2 Aug 16:22
Quote:
Berkey, Fri 2 Aug 16:16
So wee Mike, if your a really good youngster why not go to the old firm or the likes, earn some decent money for a year or 2 then if it doesn’t work out drop down into the likes of us and stay full time.
Makes more sense than coming here first then if it doesn’t work out where do you go and you won’t have earned nearly as much.
We’re really just hoping the club clubs miss one and we happen to be the club that snaps him up.
The really good ones will go to rangers and celtic anyway.
The point is to make players great at our academy....not recruit great players. Once kids are 16/17 and showing real promise they`ll have the option of an apprenticeship with us and a higher likely hood of 1st team appearances,
Or an apprenticeship at a higher club but we will get a development fee. But they will get more money but no guarantees of getting anywhere near the first team.
It`s at this point our reputation of playing and developing youngsters will put us in good stead.
The more it goes on the more successful the academy would be.
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Topic Originator: wee eck
Date: Fri 2 Aug 16:23
`Topic Originator: weemike like
Date: Fri 2 Aug 15:51
Otoo cost a fee and will be on a couple of grand a week.`
What`s the source for that, mike? I wonder how it fits into our wage structure considering McPake said a few weeks ago that we would not be prepared to pay an experienced pro £1,700 per week. If we`re paying anybody £2k a week we`re not getting value for money.
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Topic Originator: weemike
Date: Fri 2 Aug 16:30
Quote:
wee eck, Fri 2 Aug 16:23
`Topic Originator: weemike like
Date: Fri 2 Aug 15:51
Otoo cost a fee and will be on a couple of grand a week.`
What`s the source for that, mike? I wonder how it fits into our wage structure considering McPake said a few weeks ago that we would not be prepared to pay an experienced pro £1,700 per week. If we`re paying anybody £2k a week we`re not getting value for money.
I do not have a source. But he`s bound to be at the upper end of our structure.
The point I was making is that he cost a fee and is not on young tods salary.
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Topic Originator: wee eck
Date: Fri 2 Aug 16:39
So it was a guess! That`s a relief!
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Topic Originator: JamesAndrew74
Date: Fri 2 Aug 16:43
Quote:
wee eck, Fri 2 Aug 16:39
So it was a guess! That`s a relief!
And nonsense, it was widely given away by a (now former) player that £1k per week is our top end
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Topic Originator: weemike
Date: Fri 2 Aug 16:47
Quote:
JamesAndrew74, Fri 2 Aug 16:43
Quote:
wee eck, Fri 2 Aug 16:39
So it was a guess! That`s a relief!
And nonsense, it was widely given away by a (now former) player that £1k per week is our top end
This is nonsense all day long.
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Topic Originator: TAFKA_Super_Petrie
Date: Fri 2 Aug 16:49
So many factors for younger players falling away though.
I used to live in Lennoxtown and watching the Celtic development squad play quite regularly, would be maybe 15 years ago now give or take. Lot of very talented laddies but the two in particular who stood out like a sore thumb (not just based on one game) were a James Forrest and a centre back called Lewis Toshney.
Fast forward now and two very different career paths and the latter was blighted by injury which i know you cannot really legislate for.
My wife`s cousin was in the same Celtic setup from six years old all the way through to the development / B team untill he was released a couple of years back. I used to ask him who the biggest prospect was in his age group and would always give a "If he doesn`t make it then none of us have a hope in hell" type response and was referring to a striker called Jack Aitchison who invariably did not `make it` but has still has had a fairly decent career since leaving Celtic dotted around the lower English leagues.
At the end of the day you are just a number and a cog in the wheel in these sort of places and it`s the harsh reality hitting when you are let go. Must be brutal for any young player and says a lot for the ones who don`t see it as the end of the road and managed to drop down a level or two and work their way back up.
---------------------------------------------------------------
"People always talk about Ronaldinho and magic, but I didn't see him today. I saw Henrik Larsson; that's where the magic was."
Post Edited (Fri 02 Aug 16:50)
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Topic Originator: alwaysaPar
Date: Fri 2 Aug 17:14
Quote:
weemike, Fri 2 Aug 16:47
Quote:
JamesAndrew74, Fri 2 Aug 16:43
Quote:
wee eck, Fri 2 Aug 16:39
So it was a guess! That`s a relief!
And nonsense, it was widely given away by a (now former) player that £1k per week is our top end
This is nonsense all day long.
No, it`s not far away from our top earner, just a little more....
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Topic Originator: McCaig`s Tower
Date: Fri 2 Aug 19:31
A good thought-provoking original post.
In response, I think there are two issues in particular that trouble us as a club.
The first is short-termism.
There seems an (understandable) impatience to “get back to where we belong”. And whilst we can accept slow but steady progress, if that apparent progress stalls (and that can be nothing to do with us, it could be that other clubs have better luck, better players, better management or better budgets) people get edgy.
Now I don’t think anyone has any right to any level of football although I think a reasonable expectation based on our history over my lifetime would be finishing about 16th in the pyramid, give or take a few places. So the occasional year in the top flight, and the rare excursion to tier 3.
This shouldn’t deny ambition, or the desire to change the fundamentals and become an established premiership club, but ripping things up and starting again every year seems a poor strategy. And one practical consequence seems to be that we will release decent championship level players in the futile hope we will replace them with better.
I suspect other clubs, perhaps with less lofty expectations, are better prepared to plan longer term and take their time to lay the foundations.
The second issue is the league structure, in particular small divisions.
It seems they are designed with three things in mind.
One is that they produce fewer meaningless games. But meaningful does not mean entertaining or good quality; often it means tense and error-strewn.
Two is that directors would rather multiple games against the likes of Motherwell rather than the variety of trips to Morton or Montrose or wherever, regardless of the fan experience.
Three is that it is somehow good for Celtic and Rangers and what’s good for C&R is good for everyone else (and if it isn’t, who really cares?)
Speaking of the Glasgow pair, it is often said that they are perpetually two games away from a crisis. With the Pars in a ten team division , it may be more like 5 games – a good run of form and you’re challenging for promotion; a bad run and you’re in the relegation mire.
I think this encourages negative, safety-first attitudes. I and others have pointed out that if you only blood youngsters when you are 3-0 up then they may never get a game (and our sideways passing style doesn’t help). It also makes it difficult to plan longer term due to uncertainties about income and the consequent restrictions on contract lengths and concomitant player churn.
I believe in long-term planning; I’d like to believe in the principle of the Academy. It seems a worthy attempt to change the paradigm of achieving success through spending money we don’t have, or via a happy coincidence of circumstances. But because something works in a different environment in a different time doesn’t mean it will work here. And the league structure discourages longer term planning.
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Topic Originator: Rusty Shackleford
Date: Fri 2 Aug 19:36
Quote:
McCaig`s Tower, Fri 2 Aug 19:31
A good thought-provoking original post.
In response, I think there are two issues in particular that trouble us as a club.
The first is short-termism.
There seems an (understandable) impatience to “get back to where we belong”. And whilst we can accept slow but steady progress, if that apparent progress stalls (and that can be nothing to do with us, it could be that other clubs have better luck, better players, better management or better budgets) people get edgy.
Now I don’t think anyone has any right to any level of football although I think a reasonable expectation based on our history over my lifetime would be finishing about 16th in the pyramid, give or take a few places. So the occasional year in the top flight, and the rare excursion to tier 3.
This shouldn’t deny ambition, or the desire to change the fundamentals and become an established premiership club, but ripping things up and starting again every year seems a poor strategy. And one practical consequence seems to be that we will release decent championship level players in the futile hope we will replace them with better.
I suspect other clubs, perhaps with less lofty expectations, are better prepared to plan longer term and take their time to lay the foundations.
The second issue is the league structure, in particular small divisions.
It seems they are designed with three things in mind.
One is that they produce fewer meaningless games. But meaningful does not mean entertaining or good quality; often it means tense and error-strewn.
Two is that directors would rather multiple games against the likes of Motherwell rather than the variety of trips to Morton or Montrose or wherever, regardless of the fan experience.
Three is that it is somehow good for Celtic and Rangers and what’s good for C&R is good for everyone else (and if it isn’t, who really cares?)
Speaking of the Glasgow pair, it is often said that they are perpetually two games away from a crisis. With the Pars in a ten team division , it may be more like 5 games – a good run of form and you’re challenging for promotion; a bad run and you’re in the relegation mire.
I think this encourages negative, safety-first attitudes. I and others have pointed out that if you only blood youngsters when you are 3-0 up then they may never get a game (and our sideways passing style doesn’t help). It also makes it difficult to plan longer term due to uncertainties about income and the consequent restrictions on contract lengths and concomitant player churn.
I believe in long-term planning; I’d like to believe in the principle of the Academy. It seems a worthy attempt to change the paradigm of achieving success through spending money we don’t have, or via a happy coincidence of circumstances. But because something works in a different environment in a different time doesn’t mean it will work here. And the league structure discourages longer term planning.
Great post
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Topic Originator: nick_dafc1
Date: Fri 2 Aug 19:58
Quote:
jake89, Fri 2 Aug 16:21
By the logic above, why do Celtic bother too then? Why not just utilise the Manchester City academy and get players that way?
Because they can afford to without compromising their first team, the most important aspect of the club.
We can`t which will result in a flop this season setting us years backwards.
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Topic Originator: GJS93
Date: Fri 2 Aug 20:06
was never going to work when McArthur/that board started the club on that path.
is never going to work with the current investors continuing on that path for a range of different reasons.
Post Edited (Fri 02 Aug 20:14)
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Topic Originator: weemike
Date: Fri 2 Aug 20:12
Quote:
nick_dafc1, Fri 2 Aug 19:58
Quote:
jake89, Fri 2 Aug 16:21
By the logic above, why do Celtic bother too then? Why not just utilise the Manchester City academy and get players that way?
Because they can afford to without compromising their first team, the most important aspect of the club.
We can`t which will result in a flop this season setting us years backwards.
Backwards from what? Our current position? Our potential position? Spending loads on the first team may get us somewhere, but in 5 years` time, we could be back in the championship or still here, but without a training base or academy.
Investing in the youth team and training base now should last us 20 or 30 years if done correctly.
No matter what, we are probably always going to be flirting Prem/champ/league 1.
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Topic Originator: TAFKA_Super_Petrie
Date: Fri 2 Aug 20:30
There was a good article a few years ago now i read with one of Bayerns youth coaches. They had a development methodology based on a Christmas tree over a 5+ year cycle i think it was.
Their aim was:
You have the base of the tree which were multiple guys who came through but didn`t make it, but who were still playing professionally in Bundesliga 2 for example.
Next level was ones who were on a similar level but made it to the first team, albeit only as bit part players and eventually moved on.
Level above that, narrowing again, were ones who were regular first teamers having came through ranks.
One above that was guys (2 or 3 slots) who became full internationals etc and then the very top level was a single point at the top of the tree almost like the Angel who would be someone who made it as club captain, star player, regular in the German team etc etc (Thomas Mueller was their example).
But the best bit was the representation of the pine needles on the floor - all the ones who didn"t make the grade and were no longer playing football at any kind of competitive or level - they had kept tabs on them based on the acamdemic qualifications they`ve helped them achieve when they were younger players and made a real commitment to them. Pretty much all of them had gained a qualification or skills to fall back on and were all doing well.
---------------------------------------------------------------
"People always talk about Ronaldinho and magic, but I didn't see him today. I saw Henrik Larsson; that's where the magic was."
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Topic Originator: jake89
Date: Fri 2 Aug 20:46
I don`t work in football but in my work there was an old line of:
What if I develop my staff and they leave?
What if you don`t and they stay?
I`ve seen it a lot in my career where the organisation can`t or won`t invest in developing their staff and typically one of two things happens:
1. They stick around and underperform. Morale is low and the staff are lazy.
2. They quit to work somewhere that WILL invest in them.
I`ve done both in my time but typically opted for number 2.
I`d argue the same applies in football. As in real life, you`ll typically lose people to a higher bidder, but that doesn`t mean you don`t invest in them. My old work didn`t pay well so I`d struggle recruiting people to my team. My approach was to bring in younger staff and buddy then up to develop them. It didn`t always work but when it did those guys did an amazing job and I`m quite proud to see them now working in more senior positions in other organisations now. To me football is no different.
If we can`t attract people with wages, we can attract with facilities. Obviously the facility is still a bit basic, but this is just the start.
However, I will say that the way the board is acting just now feels to be incredibly naive. I`m not a finance person but I certainly see in my own life that you often have to spend money to save money in the long run.
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Topic Originator: JTH123
Date: Fri 2 Aug 21:18
It`s good to read some considered and balanced posts on this thread. A relief from some of the utter wash that gets posted on here.
Businesses generally only want to invest in facilities and take on fixed costs if they are confident they will help achieve the business`s aims. Normally to make profit. Given that football is so notoriously unpredictable it is a brave move to invest in the academy. Especially when it costs a much larger percentage of our turnover compared with the likes of Celtic.
I don`t feel strongly about whether it`s a good idea or not. The fact is that it will hinge on whether players make the grade. That is very difficult to predict and could fluctuate wildly from year to year.
I just hope it works and doesn`t become too much of a liability to the extent that it gets abandoned before bearing fruit while the first team results suffer.
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Topic Originator: Parfect69
Date: Fri 2 Aug 21:18
Otoo on £2000 a week. Don’t be ridiculous. Lucky to be on half that.
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Topic Originator: Rusty Shackleford
Date: Fri 2 Aug 21:47
Quote:
JTH123, Fri 2 Aug 21:18
It`s good to read some considered and balanced posts on this thread. A relief from some of the utter wash that gets posted on here.
Businesses generally only want to invest in facilities and take on fixed costs if they are confident they will help achieve the business`s aims. Normally to make profit. Given that football is so notoriously unpredictable it is a brave move to invest in the academy. Especially when it costs a much larger percentage of our turnover compared with the likes of Celtic.
I don`t feel strongly about whether it`s a good idea or not. The fact is that it will hinge on whether players make the grade. That is very difficult to predict and could fluctuate wildly from year to year.
I just hope it works and doesn`t become too much of a liability to the extent that it gets abandoned before bearing fruit while the first team results suffer.
Couldn`t agree more with the first paragraph
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Topic Originator: Indiapar
Date: Fri 2 Aug 23:15
I don`t think it`s just about investment by clubs or companies. It is also about investment in yourself. You reap what you sow. There can be external factors that prevent people reaching their full potential such as development systems, views of coaches, vested interests, or world views of those decision makers who can influence your improvement. Morale, injuries, confidence, motivation, financial reward etc. all play a part. At the end of tge day, you have to believe in yourself, work hard to achieve your goals and get a bit of luck along the way. There is no magic formula. The academy is about putting those systems in place to allow those who want it to rise to their full potential.
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Topic Originator: Berkey
Date: Sat 3 Aug 07:32
“By the logic above, why do Celtic bother too then? Why not just utilise the Manchester City academy and get players that way?”
Jake you’ll never guess where rangers got KRH from?
The post below replying to me is by one of .nets finest champions of mediocrity!
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Topic Originator: jake89
Date: Sat 3 Aug 08:42
Quote:
Berkey, Sat 3 Aug 07:32
“By the logic above, why do Celtic bother too then? Why not just utilise the Manchester City academy and get players that way?”
Jake you’ll never guess where rangers got KRH from?
That`s my point. Rangers still have their own academy though. There will be lads in our academy who will become good players but would be punted at Celtic or Rangers. It`s always a case in football that bigger teams get the pick of the best. Even Pars players who are also Pars fans would go to a bigger team if a contract offer came in. But we still need to develop these guys rather than relying on other clubs.
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Topic Originator: GG Riva
Date: Sat 3 Aug 08:47
What a great thread. A thoughtful OP, a fantastic post from McCaig`s Tower and excellent contributions from several other posters, well articulated by JTH123.
Oh and KRH spent 10 years at Man City before joining Therangers.
Not your average Sunday League player.
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Topic Originator: kelty_par
Date: Sat 3 Aug 10:46
The difference between say Man City`s academy producing players for Rangers, Rangers academy producing players for us and our own academy producing players for other clubs is simple. Man City academy graduates sell for big money
Even being part of the academy and being released attaches a premium. Similar but smaller amount for Rangers (how often do ex-Rangers and Celtic youths get contracts higher up the food chain than their talents deserve?). Rangers can sell the occasional academy prospect to a Premiership or Championship club and recoup most of the costs. If our youth team players turn out to not be good enough, are a Queen of the South or a Hamilton or a Clyde going to pay cash money for them? So one big sale for a Man City or Rangers is supplemented by lots of smaller sales, meaning it is pretty much self sustaining. We`d need a big sale and to keep doing it regularly to pay for it, unless it comes at the cost of the first team squad.
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Topic Originator: weemike
Date: Sat 3 Aug 11:04
The money is saved by not signing players and paying reduced wages. Our level will no doubt be lower or stagnant, but so be it.
We won`t know until we give it a proper go. Probably until 2030, at least until we see proper results.
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Topic Originator: LochgellyAlbert
Date: Sat 3 Aug 13:01
Cole Palmer as a Man City Academy graduate moving to Chelsea for £40 million, kinda puts the perspective on the English game!🤔
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Topic Originator: JTH123
Date: Sat 3 Aug 13:29
As does Andy Robertson who Celtic let go and made his own way. Who`s to say that Otoo and KRH won`t go on to do the same?
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Topic Originator: kozmasrightfoot
Date: Sat 3 Aug 14:15
I may just be a superstitious fool,but I feel that, just like Man Utd have been been since Fergie left, we too have been cursed since the last of the players that played with Norrie 😇 left the club.
We`re a poisoned chalice for any manager to take on, and the only time we`ve been capable and entertaining since those wonderful days was when the owners plunged huge amounts of money on players and wages during the Calderwood era, which ended in disaster and misery.
Perhaps only a new `Mr Dunfermline` can change our fortunes. The Tod brothers perhaps?
Now, where did I put my tea leaves ☕️.
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Topic Originator: Indiapar
Date: Sat 3 Aug 14:19
You have to try something new. We have tried signing senior pros on good salaries. It`s not sustainable for a club like ours. This policy got us where we are today. Yesterday`s solutions are today`s problems. There are a number of benefits in having a development system once the site matures and the systems are in place. We can attract local talent, generate more interest locally in the club, connect more with the local community, improve the level of professionalism and perception of of the club, avoid agents, manage players progression internally etc etc. Whilst I accept not every player will go on to be a successful, the benefits in a wider context are important in my view.
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Topic Originator: Berkey
Date: Sat 3 Aug 14:26
I get it indiapar but mcpake has brought in or kept a number of senior pro’s and it has become evident they don’t fit into how mcpake sets the team up to play.
A mix of our best youth and good senior pro’s should work in this league, mcpake just screwed up the senior pro’s side of it and it’s effectively hanging the others out to dry.
A team which spends most of time trying to grind out 0-0’s and not getting beat won’t be able to give the youngsters many minutes towards the end of games either.
For all the ‘talent’ signed to play upfront, our best option today is Sutherland ably supported by a striker who hasn’t scored in the league this year. Meanwhile the senior pro’s warm the bench.
The post below replying to me is by one of .nets finest champions of mediocrity!
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Topic Originator: JamesAndrew74
Date: Sat 3 Aug 14:35
Quote:
kozmasrightfoot, Sat 3 Aug 14:15
I may just be a superstitious fool,but I feel that, just like Man Utd have been been since Fergie left, we too have been cursed since the last of the players that played with Norrie 😇 left the club.
We`re a poisoned chalice for any manager to take on, and the only time we`ve been capable and entertaining since those wonderful days was when the owners plunged huge amounts of money on players and wages during the Calderwood era, which ended in disaster and misery.
Perhaps only a new `Mr Dunfermline` can change our fortunes. The Tod brothers perhaps?
Now, where did I put my tea leaves ☕️.
Don’t know about the younger Tod but Andrew will be at East Fife within a year, nowhere near good enough and old enough now to be making an impact.
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Topic Originator: Indiapar
Date: Sat 3 Aug 14:41
Quote:
Berkey, Sat 3 Aug 14:26
I get it indiapar but mcpake has brought in or kept a number of senior pro’s and it has become evident they don’t fit into how mcpake sets the team up to play.
A mix of our best youth and good senior pro’s should work in this league, mcpake just screwed up the senior pro’s side of it and it’s effectively hanging the others out to dry.
A team which spends most of time trying to grind out 0-0’s and not getting beat won’t be able to give the youngsters many minutes towards the end of games either.
For all the ‘talent’ signed to play upfront, our best option today is Sutherland ably supported by a striker who hasn’t scored in the league this year. Meanwhile the senior pro’s warm the bench.
I agree Berkey on the mistakes with some of the senior pros we have brought in, not just under JM but also the previous managers. It led to a bit of a downward trajectory in terms of the clubs fortunes. I do credit JM getting it right in getting us out of league 1. The championship is a different environment requiring a different approach and process in my view. I think we will tread water in the championship for the next couple of seasons until we bear fruit from the development system. For me, as long as we improve year on year i am happy. I agree we aren`t in the best place at the moment, but I am reserving judgement until I see where we are at Christmas. The players have a championship season under their belt, so know what to expect this year. For me personally, it`s about rising to the challenge collectively; management, players, and supporters.
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Topic Originator: Rusty Shackleford
Date: Sat 3 Aug 14:46
Quote:
JamesAndrew74, Sat 3 Aug 14:35
Quote:
kozmasrightfoot, Sat 3 Aug 14:15
I may just be a superstitious fool,but I feel that, just like Man Utd have been been since Fergie left, we too have been cursed since the last of the players that played with Norrie 😇 left the club.
We`re a poisoned chalice for any manager to take on, and the only time we`ve been capable and entertaining since those wonderful days was when the owners plunged huge amounts of money on players and wages during the Calderwood era, which ended in disaster and misery.
Perhaps only a new `Mr Dunfermline` can change our fortunes. The Tod brothers perhaps?
Now, where did I put my tea leaves ☕️.
Don’t know about the younger Tod but Andrew will be at East Fife within a year, nowhere near good enough and old enough now to be making an impact.
25 minutes before the start of the season and posting that about a young lad who missed a massive portion of last year. My goodness.
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Topic Originator: JamesAndrew74
Date: Sat 3 Aug 14:58
Quote:
Rusty Shackleford, Sat 3 Aug 14:46
Quote:
JamesAndrew74, Sat 3 Aug 14:35
Quote:
kozmasrightfoot, Sat 3 Aug 14:15
I may just be a superstitious fool,but I feel that, just like Man Utd have been been since Fergie left, we too have been cursed since the last of the players that played with Norrie 😇 left the club.
We`re a poisoned chalice for any manager to take on, and the only time we`ve been capable and entertaining since those wonderful days was when the owners plunged huge amounts of money on players and wages during the Calderwood era, which ended in disaster and misery.
Perhaps only a new `Mr Dunfermline` can change our fortunes. The Tod brothers perhaps?
Now, where did I put my tea leaves ☕️.
Don’t know about the younger Tod but Andrew will be at East Fife within a year, nowhere near good enough and old enough now to be making an impact.
25 minutes before the start of the season and posting that about a young lad who missed a massive portion of last year. My goodness.
We’ll see who’s right in 12 months. Zero impact.
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Topic Originator: Rusty Shackleford
Date: Sat 3 Aug 15:55
Incredible attitude to have. Just incredible.
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Topic Originator: Andrew283
Date: Sat 3 Aug 15:58
What a melt
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Topic Originator: JTH123
Date: Sat 3 Aug 16:27
Ah well... it was nice while it lasted.
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Topic Originator: eastendalloapar
Date: Sat 3 Aug 16:52
Nothing wrong with East Fife. They beat us 2-0 on Friday night, that was after our players were having the day off and their players had worked all day.
.
matt forsyth
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Topic Originator: Dave_1885
Date: Sat 3 Aug 17:07
Quote:
JamesAndrew74, Sat 3 Aug 14:58
Quote:
Rusty Shackleford, Sat 3 Aug 14:46
Quote:
JamesAndrew74, Sat 3 Aug 14:35
Quote:
kozmasrightfoot, Sat 3 Aug 14:15
I may just be a superstitious fool,but I feel that, just like Man Utd have been been since Fergie left, we too have been cursed since the last of the players that played with Norrie 😇 left the club.
We`re a poisoned chalice for any manager to take on, and the only time we`ve been capable and entertaining since those wonderful days was when the owners plunged huge amounts of money on players and wages during the Calderwood era, which ended in disaster and misery.
Perhaps only a new `Mr Dunfermline` can change our fortunes. The Tod brothers perhaps?
Now, where did I put my tea leaves ☕️.
Don’t know about the younger Tod but Andrew will be at East Fife within a year, nowhere near good enough and old enough now to be making an impact.
25 minutes before the start of the season and posting that about a young lad who missed a massive portion of last year. My goodness.
We’ll see who’s right in 12 months. Zero impact.
Ironically Andrew Tod is our highest rated youngster on Football Manager 😂 which is a very good scope for us non scout types to use!
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