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Topic Originator: GG Riva
Date: Tue 12 Dec 11:05
I`m currently reading the fascinating autobiography of Irish international Johhny Giles, who won the FA cup with Man U before moving to Leeds United in 1963, to form a formidable central midfield partnership with Billy Bremner under Don Revie, until 1975.
In his book, he maintains that many fans and pundits accord "greatness" to players who are extremely talented but don`t deserve this ultimate accolade because they don`t meet these essential criteria;
1. Whatever abilities a player possesses, must be used for the benefits of the team. This requires honesty of effort.
2. Moral courage is needed to take responsibility in accepting the ball, no matter how important the game is and regardless of the score.
3. An honest effort must be made to regain possession when the opposition has the ball.
4. There must be no public remonstration with team mates.
5. A player must have the intelligence and humility to play the simple pass when that is the right thing to do.
It`s hard to argue against any of the above, but a good number of players most of us regard as great would be excluded, among them Cristiano Ronaldo and Eric Cantona,
Not your average Sunday League player.
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Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks
Date: Tue 12 Dec 11:37
Wouldn`t say that excludes Cantona though I perhaps wonder if you are trying to hook a Utd fan or two by only picking out two Utd legends from the plethora of players you could have picked? You can be a mischievous rascal at times ;-)
However like you say that criteria would indeed exclude Ronaldo yet there can be no doubt he is a great player, one of the greatest ever, so Giles would need to re-evaluate his definition.
And although my eyes were open
They just might as well be closed
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Topic Originator: GG Riva
Date: Tue 12 Dec 12:30
Quote:
The One Who Knocks, Tue 12 Dec 11:37
Wouldn`t say that excludes Cantona though I perhaps wonder if you are trying to hook a Utd fan or two by only picking out two Utd legends from the plethora of players you could have picked? You can be a mischievous rascal at times ;-)
However like you say that criteria would indeed exclude Ronaldo yet there can be no doubt he is a great player, one of the greatest ever, so Giles would need to re-evaluate his definition.
I was aware that both Ronaldo and Cantona played for United, of course, but then so did Giles. I honestly didn`t set out to wind anybody up - perhaps you`re being overly sensitive. 🤔
I have gone back and re-read the page. Giles mentions both players and then goes on to explain why Ronaldo doesn`t make the cut - in his eyes, of course. He then says of Cantona, " he`s a star, and the game needs stars" but doesn`t specifically state that he wasn`t a great player, so maybe I misunderstood him.
Having said that, Cantona was undoubtedly great for Man U, a fact for which Sir Alex must be given a lot of credit, but he did have a troubled past in French football and was also banned from the national side. His Wiki page doesn`t exactly paint the picture of an ideal team player or role model;
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_Cantona
I hadn`t realised that his Kung Fu kick on that Palace fan wasn`t his first such aberration. 😱
Not your average Sunday League player.
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Topic Originator: sammer
Date: Tue 12 Dec 13:00
Johnny Giles was very critical of Ronaldo when the teenager broke into the Manchester United first team. He felt Ronaldo was a bit of a ‘show pony,’ an opinion shared by a friend of mine which I could see some truth in. But Ronaldo’s ability to commit defenders was crystal clear and I wasn’t surprised when he developed into a top player. What I didn’t anticipate was just how prolific a goalscorer he would eventually become.
As GG will know from his days assessing students, checklists like the one created by Giles do not always capture the essence of what makes a person stand out from the crowd.
‘‘3. An honest effort must be made to regain possession when the opposition has the ball.’’
For me that might exclude Puskas and Zidane whose records at top level speak for themselves.
‘‘4. There must be no public remonstration with team mates.’’
Bang go the surly perfectionists, di Stefano and Cruyff.
sammer
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Topic Originator: vasco
Date: Tue 12 Dec 13:06
It`s as if Giles is defining great players by using his particular traits as the benchmark. Surprised not see shoe size less than a 5 there too.
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Topic Originator: Dave_1885
Date: Tue 12 Dec 13:34
If number 3 is correct then that means Messi isn’t a great player as he very rarely would fight to win the ball back…..
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Topic Originator: GG Riva
Date: Tue 12 Dec 13:39
Quote:
vasco, Tue 12 Dec 13:06
It`s as if Giles is defining great players by using his particular traits as the benchmark. Surprised not see shoe size less than a 5 there too.
😄😄😄 I think you`re bang on the money there , vasco.
Giles appears to be obsessed by the work ethic of players, or more accurately, their lack of it. He also downgrades players who have a go at their team mates (even when they themselves are at fault) and while I can empathise with that sentiment, it should not exclude such players from the pantheon of greats, otherwise we would be excluding some unbelievable players, as sammer points out further up.
Not your average Sunday League player.
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Topic Originator: parfection
Date: Tue 12 Dec 14:47
“Moral courage is needed to take responsibility in accepting the ball, no matter how important the game is and regardless of the score. “
This defines a great player very well indeed in my view. A player like Johan Cruyff was always demanding the ball and looking to make things happen. Great players read a game, and seem to have a sixth sense about where the action is - perfect examples of this were Franco Baresi and Franz Beckenbauer. Each of the players I’ve cited here were able to stroll through games seemingly effortlessly, and that’s the hallmark of a very great player.
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Topic Originator: TAFKA_Super_Petrie
Date: Tue 12 Dec 17:25
Totally out left field but scrolling through those points Fernando Redondo was first name that came into my head.
---------------------------------------------------------------
"People always talk about Ronaldinho and magic, but I didn't see him today. I saw Henrik Larsson; that's where the magic was."
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Topic Originator: sammer
Date: Tue 12 Dec 17:41
I agree with the ‘sixth sense.’ No matter the level of football you play at, the mark of the outstanding player whether in defence or attack is his anticipation; the rest of the players may be good but they are only reacting to what is happening.
I’m sure most of us have occasionally shared the pitch or 5-a-side arena with some ex-pro, maybe of advanced years, and it’s ridiculous how easy they make the game seem!
sammer
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Topic Originator: istvan kozma
Date: Tue 12 Dec 18:23
Ian Ferguson was a great player for the Pars. A great player.
KOZMA
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Topic Originator: MessiPar
Date: Tue 12 Dec 22:20
Those metrics that Johnny Giles mentions would exclude most of the `great` players that have played the game, in my opinion, especially in the modern game.
Seems like Johnny Giles was describes Harry Enfield`s `Charles Charley Charles` players in his book.
I`d bin it if I were you GG, nothing good will come of it.
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Topic Originator: sammer
Date: Tue 12 Dec 22:59
I admired Giles as a player and his views have always interested me. When he left Man Utd in 1963, just after they had won the FA Cup, he went down a division to play for a Leeds Utd team that had been flirting with relegation. Within two years they were promoted and only lost the First Division on goal difference, the FA Cup after extra time.
The stalwarts of that emerging Leeds machine- Sprake, Reaney, Madeley, Hunter, Cooper, Bremner- were just establishing themselves yet Giles said the quality of youngster at Old Trafford (which included George Best) had been higher.
Fast forward 10 years and these Leeds youngsters were almost all household names yet what had Manchester`s elite academy produced in that time? Just George Best, possibly Brian Kidd who came after Giles had left. And neither of these players were really team players in my view. Meanwhile Leeds had added Peter Lorimer and Eddie Gray to the mix.
That is why I think Giles places such a premium on the ability to play to a team plan.
sammer
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Topic Originator: GG Riva
Date: Wed 13 Dec 06:47
Quote:
MessiPar, Tue 12 Dec 22:20
Those metrics that Johnny Giles mentions would exclude most of the `great` players that have played the game, in my opinion, especially in the modern game.
Seems like Johnny Giles was describes Harry Enfield`s `Charles Charley Charles` players in his book.
I`d bin it if I were you GG, nothing good will come of it.
While I don`t necessarily agree with all the criteria Giles advances before conferring greatness on a player, he is entitled to his opinion and I definitely won`t be binning his book - the library might have something to say about that in any case. 😀
It`s obvious to me, even at this early stage in his autobiography, that Giles places a lot of emphasis on selflessness on the pitch and has no time for pouting "prima donnas" as exemplified by Cristiano Ronaldo, for example. It would be crazy to suggest that CR7 is not a great player, however, but for Giles, he is merely a supremely talented footballer who doesn`t give his all for his team mates but plays only for his own personal gratification. He similarly disdains those players who point to their name on the back of their shirts during a goal celebration. That might be because he played football in a different era when a goal was celebrated by a perfunctory hadshake from a few teammates.
Not your average Sunday League player.
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Topic Originator: JimDAFC
Date: Wed 13 Dec 20:42
I read this book a few months ago and found it quite interesting, especially the first half of the book. It is better than a lot of footballers books and worth a read. I liked the bit where they did a prank on Jack Charleton and his reaction to it.
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Topic Originator: Parfect69
Date: Thu 14 Dec 08:20
I like players who are as competent with both feet. It annoys me when they say someone is word class but can only play with one foot
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Topic Originator: GG Riva
Date: Thu 14 Dec 14:58
Quote:
Parfect69, Thu 14 Dec 08:20
I like players who are as competent with both feet. It annoys me when they say someone is word class but can only play with one foot
I get where you`re coming from, but that would rule out Puskas and Jim Baxter for starters.
Eta. George Best and Jinky Johnstone practised with their weaker foot for hours on end when they were kids, until they were equally comfortable with both feet.
Not your average Sunday League player.
Post Edited (Thu 14 Dec 15:01)
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Topic Originator: Parfect69
Date: Thu 14 Dec 15:34
Yeah I remember watching a documentary on George Best and he said as much. I am a bit of a Liverpool fan and I often think if Mo Salah had a right foot he would be pretty good ;-) mind you I often thought that of Super Joe if only he had a left foot.
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Topic Originator: GG Riva
Date: Thu 14 Dec 16:32
Quote:
Parfect69, Thu 14 Dec 15:34
Yeah I remember watching a documentary on George Best and he said as much. I am a bit of a Liverpool fan and I often think if Mo Salah had a right foot he would be pretty good ;-) mind you I often thought that of Super Joe if only he had a left foot.
"A bit of a Liverpool fan?" Do yourself a huge favour and read the book "Klopp - My Liverpool Romance" by Anthony Quinn. Dunfermline Public Library has it, but a mate is currently reading it on my recommendation. He`s loving it cand neither of us are Liverpool fans. 🙂
Not your average Sunday League player.
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Topic Originator: Parfect69
Date: Thu 14 Dec 18:29
Quote:
GG Riva, Thu 14 Dec 16:32
Quote:
Parfect69, Thu 14 Dec 15:34
Yeah I remember watching a documentary on George Best and he said as much. I am a bit of a Liverpool fan and I often think if Mo Salah had a right foot he would be pretty good ;-) mind you I often thought that of Super Joe if only he had a left foot.
"A bit of a Liverpool fan?" Do yourself a huge favour and read the book "Klopp - My Liverpool Romance" by Anthony Quinn. Dunfermline Public Library has it, but a mate is currently reading it on my recommendation. He`s loving it cand neither of us are Liverpool fans. 🙂
Thanks for that. Will do 👍
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Topic Originator: pars4life1
Date: Thu 14 Dec 23:56
Something like 75% of Messi’s goals are with his left foot, that still means he scored a lot with his right but he is clearly better on one than the other. it’s nearly impossible for him not to be called an all time great
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Topic Originator: Parnott
Date: Fri 15 Dec 18:47
For point No 2. I generally thought Alex Burke was a great tidy player for the Pars. Always looked for the ball and the vast majority of our play went through him. Was always a notable absence in the team at the time if missing. I`m sure he played more games for us than any other in his career too.
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Topic Originator: AdamAntsParsStripe
Date: Fri 15 Dec 19:38
I tend to agree that the ‘team player’ should be considered the ‘great player’
The guys that put themselves on the line to achieve a result.
It’s not even about ability as such as the influence on the teammates.
Norrie was most certainly in that mould for us.
On a wider spectrum, Kenny Dalglish must merit a mention as a Scot who wasn’t a glory hunter but was considered a natural genius.
In terms of Ronaldo or Messi, I would consider them egoistical but could single handedly rescue a team with a big time goal in big games.
They knew their worth.
Zwei Pints Bier und ein Päckchen Chips bitte
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Topic Originator: Parfect69
Date: Fri 15 Dec 20:00
Interesting conversation, I loved Maldini at Milan. Best defender I have seen.
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