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Topic Originator: Stanza
Date: Wed 3 Jan 21:23
The way in which human beings act, especially when in a crowd, results from the sequence of thoughts followed by words, followed by actions. Actions are the result of a process.
The vast majority of football fans do not go to games wanting to be involved in violence. However their behaviour usually involves tribalism and an "other"-ing of the opposition team and supporters, thinking and speaking of them as the "enemy" and often less-than-human ("six-fingered mutants" etc)
This also shows itself in chants like "If you hate the f---ing (insert name) clap your hands" which concentrate on hatred and negative thoughts about the opposition rather than positive thoughts about one`s own team.
Many adults and otherwise rational fans take part in these unhealthy rituals, and effectively normalise them as a way of thinking and behaving, which is then passed on to the next generation, many of whom are yet to develop self-control.
My point is that violent actions by a minority do not materialise from thin air, they stem from watching and imitating the thought processes and behaviour of others who they look up to.
I am not in any way condoning the violence shown on recent social media videos - those involved have agency in their own lives and are responsible for their own behaviour.
But so too are the more mature (in years, anyway) fans who engage in singing about hatred, or who yell personal abuse at stewards, linesmen etc, or who see former players as traitors if they are now employed by a different club. These are all indicators of negative thinking, which will eventually lead to negative actions by some.
Somehow or other the club has to channel the energy and enthusiasm of younger fans into positive activity that will benefit the club - there is a huge gain if it can be achieved and Jason`s TIFO work is excellent. But we all have a responsibility to act positively and to eliminate the poisonous negativity that permeates so much of football fan thought and language.
_________________
 Support Dunfermline Athletic Disabled Supporters` Club (DADSC) when you shop online with one of 8000 firms: https://www.easyfundraising.org.uk/causes/dadsc[
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Topic Originator: Rusty Shackleford
Date: Wed 3 Jan 21:25
Really interesting post Stanza and thought about posting something similar myself, or at least along the same lines.
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Topic Originator: Rigger Al
Date: Wed 3 Jan 21:53
Quote:
Stanza, Wed 3 Jan 21:23
The way in which human beings act, especially when in a crowd, results from the sequence of thoughts followed by words, followed by actions. Actions are the result of a process.
The vast majority of football fans do not go to games wanting to be involved in violence. However their behaviour usually involves tribalism and an "other"-ing of the opposition team and supporters, thinking and speaking of them as the "enemy" and often less-than-human ("six-fingered mutants" etc)
This also shows itself in chants like "If you hate the f---ing (insert name) clap your hands" which concentrate on hatred and negative thoughts about the opposition rather than positive thoughts about one`s own team.
Many adults and otherwise rational fans take part in these unhealthy rituals, and effectively normalise them as a way of thinking and behaving, which is then passed on to the next generation, many of whom are yet to develop self-control.
My point is that violent actions by a minority do not materialise from thin air, they stem from watching and imitating the thought processes and behaviour of others who they look up to.
I am not in any way condoning the violence shown on recent social media videos - those involved have agency in their own lives and are responsible for their own behaviour.
But so too are the more mature (in years, anyway) fans who engage in singing about hatred, or who yell personal abuse at stewards, linesmen etc, or who see former players as traitors if they are now employed by a different club. These are all indicators of negative thinking, which will eventually lead to negative actions by some.
Somehow or other the club has to channel the energy and enthusiasm of younger fans into positive activity that will benefit the club - there is a huge gain if it can be achieved and Jason`s TIFO work is excellent. But we all have a responsibility to act positively and to eliminate the poisonous negativity that permeates so much of football fan thought and language.
Good post
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Topic Originator: Socks
Date: Wed 3 Jan 22:22
It`s an interesting take on it, but I disagree. Strongly. The tribal aspect of football is part of what makes it special and the game would be greatly diminished if it wasn`t there at all.
Everyone is responsible for their own actions. I`m prone to the odd rant at a referee (big credit to the ref at Somerset on Saturday who looked over and laughed at me when I called him a fanny at one point) and I flatly refuse to accept that this kind of thing makes me indirectly responsible for others partaking in physical violence.
Frankly, taking the p*** out of the other team and your rivals is a good thing. And, of course, having to take the same from them in return. Are songs like `cheerio, cheerio, cheerio` and `can you hear...` also examples of what is considered negative behaviour? There was a game at Stark`s Park in the 60s where Pars fans signing `relegation to you` got a bit of a reaction. Is that also the wrong side of the very arbitrary line? Obviously I`m picking the most innocuous examples here, but hopefully you get my point.
If you take the view that younger fans lacking self control see the actions of older people and use that to guide their behaviour, then logically it would follow that if they don`t see older fans engaging in physical violence or chucking stuff on the park, they too would follow that route. To me, it seems a failure of logic to claim that they are copying behaviours they`ve seen while also claiming the same origin for things they haven`t seen.
The tribal aspect is likely an attraction for some younger folk but the discussion should be about knowing where the line is. That`s going to be slightly different or each of us, but if we got to a point where we didn`t have discriminatory songs, didn`t have stuff chucked on the park and didn`t have any physical violence, that would cover most of the stuff I`d like us to be rid of. It really shouldn`t be about removing the tribal aspect completely.
Everyone is responsible for their own actions - as far as I`m concerned, that really is it.
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Topic Originator: Alter Ego
Date: Wed 3 Jan 22:28
Great post Socks!
Mon the Pars!
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Topic Originator: Stanza
Date: Wed 3 Jan 22:54
Quote:
Socks, Wed 3 Jan 22:22
If you take the view that younger fans lacking self control see the actions of older people and use that to guide their behaviour, then logically it would follow that if they don`t see older fans engaging in physical violence or chucking stuff on the park, they too would follow that route. To me, it seems a failure of logic to claim that they are copying behaviours they`ve seen while also claiming the same origin for things they haven`t seen.
.
No, what I was trying to say - and it`s a matter of debate, certainly - is that when a large crowd of people sing about hating "others" and use language intending to dehumanise the "others" they normalise that way of thinking, and increase the possibility of a few people taking action in line with the thoughts and the words being used. I would hope that is something most people can agree with. Tribal loyalty can be positive and rival banter can be funny - expressing hatred crosses a line, IMO.
Personally I believe I have a responsibility, not just to act in a way that is acceptable in society but also to exercise self-control in what I say and the language I use to or about other people. If that sounds like uptight virtue-signalling I`m sorry, but I genuinely bear no hatred at all towards anyone (least of all the fans of another football club).
_________________
Support Dunfermline Athletic Disabled Supporters` Club (DADSC) when you shop online with one of 8000 firms: https://www.easyfundraising.org.uk/causes/dadsc[
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Topic Originator: Wotsit
Date: Wed 3 Jan 23:14
Football is basically a pantomime, where the crowd boos the baddies and cheers the goodies and that`s the line that some people are crossing: they are either forgetting or were never told that it`s just theatre, it`s not real.
I think that it`s good for a lot of people`s mental health to have a safe place to let loose emotionally. It certainly is for me and, if football were to become less like pantomime and more like ballet, then I think that it would be a net loss for society.
I also believe that we can keep the pantomime whilst losing the mindless violence and those who engage in it.
The enemy travels by private jet, not by dinghy.
Post Edited (Wed 03 Jan 23:30)
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Topic Originator: 1985Par
Date: Thu 4 Jan 09:55
Good point well made Stanza. The bar for decorum at a football match is so low that it breeds an anything goes attitude in terms of what can be said and done to others. And Socks, I have to disagree with you. If I witnessed someone calling another man “ a fanny” in Tesco I’d wonder what was wrong with him. The fact that it is deemed ok to do it at a football match perpetuates the tone of aggression, disrespect and anger which Stanza eludes to.
It says to impressionable youngsters that football matches are places where abuse is normalised and for some with cloth between their ears like those involved after the Raith match, this abuse goes from verbal to physical.
Post Edited (Thu 04 Jan 10:09)
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Topic Originator: veteraneastender
Date: Thu 4 Jan 10:09
Socks has it, especially the final sentence.
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Topic Originator: Socks
Date: Thu 4 Jan 13:04
If you saw someone in Tesco suddenly going from silence to bellowing `come on ye Pars` (as sometimes happens when we get a corner late in a game), you might wonder if there was something wrong there also. Likewise if you saw someone pushing a trolley suddenly jump up in the way that many do when their team scores a goal. So, if you really take the view that things should be the same in a football ground as they are in a supermarket, you`re saying that it`s OK to be silent or maybe to have a quiet conversation with someone you`re with, but everything else is unacceptable. I`m sure you`re not saying that, but then you should accept that it was a pretty silly comparison to make.
It`s a fair point about the tone of aggression and disrespect being normalised, and this is linked to the tribal thing. You obviously do not find it acceptable and that`s fine, but I continue to disagree. Everyone will have a line according to how they feel on it, and it will come in a different place for us all.
As for the songs about hating - look at where these songs originate when we do hear them. If it was the case that older fans were starting that stuff and younger kids were picking it up then I might see the argument, but that`s not what happens. They originate from the very group who are being mentioned as being impressionable. I can`t say I like hearing that but I don`t think it`s unacceptable.
An important point to add is that we`re talking about what goes on inside football grounds - the ugly and unacceptable stuff from Tuesday night did not take place in a football ground. And that kind of behaviour has not been normalised anywhere.
I`m quite reflective and have thought about what`s been said above, but I`m still of the view that it`s acceptable for me to have an occasional rant at a game. And I feel no sense of hypocrisy at holding that view while being critical of wee fannies (I`m not writing this from Tesco, so hopefully it`s OK) using an unacceptable term to describe John McGlynn, chucking stuff on the park and assaulting people after games. Conflating the two just takes away responsibility from those involved, something in its self which is irresponsible.
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Topic Originator: chris1883
Date: Thu 4 Jan 13:58
Rivalry is a great thing, if it is done right - in sport it helps athletes improved. In society it helps stimulate community, belonging and social connections. What goes on in football grounds is not new, and in actual fact is massively toned back from what it was.
When I was at high school one of my best friends was a die-hard Dunfermline supporter. He went to most DAFC games each season, and I went to most Rovers games. We would do the general p*ss taking and on derby days [for 105 minutes] we didn`t much like each other... but I believe it was that rivalry and common interest in crap-fife-football that made us good friends.
I don`t admit this often, however, I have also been on a few dates with a Dunfermline Supporter in the past. It had to end when DAFC kit started ending up in my flat... (that`s a joke!)
I do feel that some of the language used at football games is a bit over-the-top, but I don`t see the `throwing` of banter back and forward in the stadium as a bad thing and actually adds a lot to the game. Where it goes very wrong is when it is aimed at a specific individual - be it a player or a supporter. This is unacceptable IMO.
Where a very firm red line should be drawn is that any physical violence is wholly unacceptable... end of.
With reference the current situation, firstly we [supporters, clubs etc] all have a duty to make sure the young lad is OK. Secondly, I think both clubs need to get together to make a clear demonstration that we all think this behaviour is unacceptable.
It would be good to see both sets of players betting together for a few pictures and a joint statement re: behaviour being made. If this was to happen, it would be a great thing to invite the young lad and his pals to meet the players and to get a few pictures for themselves.
Ultimately, the publicity around this all is hopefully a warning to other little yobs - these kids finding themselves on national news has no doubt cased a great deal of shame to them and their families.
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Topic Originator: jake89
Date: Thu 4 Jan 14:30
Well said, Chris. And agree it would be great to see something jointly happen from both clubs to make clear the behaviour isn`t acceptable and to do something for the lad who was hurt too.
As you say, I too hope this sends a message to supporters across Scotland that these daft scuffles can and will get you in hot water and won`t be tolerated by the majority of fans.
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Topic Originator: Stanza
Date: Thu 4 Jan 14:32
I think everyone will agree that we each have agency for how we behave, and cannot pass the responsibility on to others.
But equally (I believe) we have to take some responsibility if our own actions are likely to have an effect on others, or to influence their behaviour. It`s even possible to argue that every action we take in life is designed to influence others, as we are social animals and react to each other.
One person standing up on his own and swearing at opposing fans is likely to be viewed as a bit strange and is unlikely to be copied. A hundred people doing the same thing creates a peer pressure on those around them to join in, even if they are uncomfortable about it. (Eg At a much tamer level, try staying seated during a chorus of "Stand up if you love the Pars".) Unfortunately, the more who join in the greater the likelihood that some will lack self-constraint and/or be more likely to move through the process from words to action. It`s still their responsibility, but in their own minds they will feel justified by what they see as normalised behaviour by others.
Having attended football since the 1950s I have seen and heard much worse behaviour on the terraces and in the surrounding streets than anything that happens today, so I am not for a minute suggesting that fan behaviour is worse than it used to be - it`s not. Racist and homophobic chants have disappeared, for example, as have public drunkenness and (generally) street violence. We have moved on as a society, so what was tolerated then is not today, and my personal hope is that this trend will continue. Rivalry, banter, positive songs, drums, even some pantomime booing - yes, no problem. Hatred, dehumanising language, personal abuse - not for me.
_________________
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