|
|
Topic Originator: ghostrider
Date: Thu 25 Jun 14:46
Whilst Steve Clarke has undoubtedly achieved much by getting Scotland Men`s to 3 major tournaments out of 4, I think we need to ask is it time for a change?
Ask yourself,
1) would Celtic have won the league last year if O`Neill not come in. Turned the same group of players into winners.
2) would Man Utd be competing in Champions League if Amorin had remained in charge. Again new manager with same group of players, suddenly got them playing better.
You could argue teams with stability over managers have gone on to achieve wonders aka Arsenal and Man City. But I would argue even in these cases the managers improved these teams by constantly bringing in different players to take them up a level.
Steve Clarke seems to be able to get teams to play well (sometimes we get lucky) in qualification but as soon as they get to the actual tournament goes into a "safety first" approach.
Also refuses to bring in new players to challenge the existing squad, always coming up with the "I trust these guys I have". Which I think leads to these players subconsciously losing that extra competitive edge as their place is safe.
I genuinely believe a new manager could take this same group and get a better tune of them now.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Topic Originator: SeasonedPar
Date: Thu 25 Jun 15:21
Steve Clark has been the best manager Scotland have ever had.
He’s brought in new players, not that long since Gannon Doak, Curtis, Shankland even Lewis Ferguson wouldn’t have got near the team, so a bit unfair to criticise him for not bringing in new players.
Let down by senior players, Robertson, Handley, McKenna especially, while McGinn and McTominay haven’t had a great WC. Yes he’s cautious, but last night’s team looked ambitious. Careless mistakes from different players has cost us dearly. Clark standing in the side looking as frustrated and angry as we are.
No strikers, struggling for a decent right back, poor performances. Tartan Army are amazing, no doubt they deserve much better. Just exactly who would come in and do a better job?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Topic Originator: Parsdaft21346327964
Date: Thu 25 Jun 15:34
The best bit about a new Scotland manager is who are you going to go for the only one recently I thought oh maybe he might be good was derek mcinnes but obviously not happening now with the sfa seemingly rather 1. Either not looking outside of being Scottish to manage us or 2. Everyone turning us down if we ask there’s no better option right now
|
|
|
|
|
|
Topic Originator: Hunter78
Date: Thu 25 Jun 15:46
Quote:
Parsdaft21346327964, Thu 25 Jun 15:34
The best bit about a new Scotland manager is who are you going to go for the only one recently I thought oh maybe he might be good was derek mcinnes but obviously not happening now with the sfa seemingly rather 1. Either not looking outside of being Scottish to manage us or 2. Everyone turning us down if we ask there’s no better option right now
Moyes the only candidate in 2/3 years time
|
|
|
|
|
|
Topic Originator: davepars
Date: Thu 25 Jun 15:47
Clark has shown us loyalty when many past Scotland managers have used us as a stepping stone or bridge to their next club.
He is not out of his depth. He was in a no win situation last night with his team choice.....too conservative, pelters, too attacking minded, pelters.
We should show the guy the same kind of loyalty he has shown our national team and not look to punt him the moment we don`t overachieve in a World Cup or Euro`s
|
|
|
|
|
|
Topic Originator: WarringtonPar
Date: Thu 25 Jun 15:54
Definitely time for a new manager and new ideas. That’s two tournaments now where we have made no impact whatsoever and to suggest there is no one out there to replace him is nonsense, there are dozens of proven coaches better qualified than Clarke. We might have to look further afield but that’s no bad thing. We need a complete revamp of tactics and approach. He is the dullest individual and it’s clear he’s incapable of organising or motivating the players. Didn’t even have the nuts to face the media after the game because he had no answers. Yes individual mistakes have been the mainstay of our downfall but his blind loyalty to certain players and his tactical naivety hasn’t helped. It’s the same every tournament and all we have as fans is a barrel of what ifs. I said before the tournament started they’d be home before the postcards and I don’t think my prediction is in danger.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Topic Originator: buffy
Date: Thu 25 Jun 16:16
He’s signed for another three years so there’s no point thinking we need a new one.
He’s been top notch and I can’t imagine anyone else topping what he’s done.
”Buffy’s Buns are the finest in Fife”, J. Spence 2019”
|
|
|
|
|
|
Topic Originator: AdamAntsParsStripe
Date: Thu 25 Jun 16:18
Quote:
davepars, Thu 25 Jun 15:47
Clark has shown us loyalty when many past Scotland managers have used us as a stepping stone or bridge to their next club.
He is not out of his depth. He was in a no win situation last night with his team choice.....too conservative, pelters, too attacking minded, pelters.
We should show the guy the same kind of loyalty he has shown our national team and not look to punt him the moment we don`t overachieve in a World Cup or Euro`s
💯 this
Loyalty to Scotland is a very rare thing in management.
The players trust him and hopefully in a few years the new generation will do as well.
Zwei Pints Bier und ein Päckchen Chips bitte
|
|
|
|
|
|
Topic Originator: WarringtonPar
Date: Thu 25 Jun 16:21
Quote:
buffy, Thu 25 Jun 16:16
He’s signed for another three years so there’s no point thinking we need a new one.
He’s been top notch and I can’t imagine anyone else topping what he’s done.
Buffy if you like mediocrity give him a 10 year contract. One question. If he left tomorrow where do you think he’d get another job?
His race is run, he’s tried and failed, give him a pat on the back and a big thank you for his efforts. Scotland are not going forward if he remains at the helm.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Topic Originator: Hay Fever
Date: Thu 25 Jun 16:22
Maybe top notch, but he is not learning his lesson, last 3 major finals have ended nearly exactly the same for each tournament. Need a change of scenery. Clarke is to stubborn to the players that have failed miserably. No point qualifying if we aren’t going to turn up when we are there🤷🏻♂️
|
|
|
|
|
|
Topic Originator: Parsdaft21346327964
Date: Thu 25 Jun 16:27
“Moyes the only candidate”
The way they both play is the same people seem to forget that everyone at West Ham wanted moyes out for his defensive style of play and I can guarantee that moyes would want a lot more money than Clark ever good
|
|
|
|
|
|
Topic Originator: Luxembourg Par
Date: Thu 25 Jun 16:33
I get the feelings of disappointment, but come on…
If the late penalty shout had been given against Morocco, he’d be getting plaudits as a fekkin tactical genius.
If two schoolboy errors hadn’t given Brazil an easy two goal start - hell, even the third came from losing possession in our own half - we’d have been happy with a 0-1 loss.
Yes, I too feel that he’s too cautious, but it has got us qualified for 3 tournaments in a row - when was the last time we topped a qualifying group???
That line-up against Brazil was probably the most attacking formation for years, and without the errors, might even have paid off.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Topic Originator: buffy
Date: Thu 25 Jun 16:33
Who said I liked mediocrity? Get over yourself. He’s the only manager who has got us to the WC in 26 years. That’s nowhere near mediocrity.
”Buffy’s Buns are the finest in Fife”, J. Spence 2019”
|
|
|
|
|
|
Topic Originator: WarringtonPar
Date: Thu 25 Jun 16:39
Quote:
Parsdaft21346327964, Thu 25 Jun 16:27
“Moyes the only candidate”
The way they both play is the same people seem to forget that everyone at West Ham wanted moyes out for his defensive style of play and I can guarantee that moyes would want a lot more money than Clark ever good
Why not go for a foreign coach? Play a different style of football organise the team, give them more belief. Prime example by no means suggesting he is the man but look what Dick Advocaat is doing with Curacua. I honestly don’t care if we play attacking football or defensive football but build systems that can adapt and get your team ready to compete. We have nothing like that. This squad was done after the Euros why has it not been refreshed and certain deadbeats removed 🤷♂️
|
|
|
|
|
|
Topic Originator: kozmasrightfoot
Date: Thu 25 Jun 17:07
Hasn`t he just been given a new contract? If so it`s a moot topic of conversation. We`re just not very good. Very little skill in either area of the pitch and not one player that is remotely close to being world class.
Pars fan.
Magpies fan.
Mens tennis fan.
Alternative rock fan.
Not a fan of much else.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Topic Originator: DunfyDave
Date: Thu 25 Jun 17:15
Quote:
Luxembourg Par, Thu 25 Jun 16:33
I get the feelings of disappointment, but come on…
If the late penalty shout had been given against Morocco, he’d be getting plaudits as a fekkin tactical genius.
If two schoolboy errors hadn’t given Brazil an easy two goal start - hell, even the third came from losing possession in our own half - we’d have been happy with a 0-1 loss.
Yes, I too feel that he’s too cautious, but it has got us qualified for 3 tournaments in a row - when was the last time we topped a qualifying group???
That line-up against Brazil was probably the most attacking formation for years, and without the errors, might even have paid off.
^^^ LP nails it.
If VAR got involved in the Morocco match we would possibly be sitting on 6pts
We were always going to be up against it with Brazil and yes they were silly goals to concede.
Clarke has been a superb Scotland manager. He got us to these tournaments when we were mere tumble-weed blowing in the desert. He helped ignite our love for the national team again and I am willing to repay his efforts with loyalty to his cause.
In the German Euros we only secured 1pt and finished last in the group. We have improved and on a Bigger Stage.
I am always willing to hear/listen to other posts and opinions but I am genuinely quite surprised hear some passioned posts and comments without respect to where we were and where he took us.
DunfyDave
Post Edited (Thu 25 Jun 17:20)
|
|
|
|
|
|
Topic Originator: wee eck
Date: Thu 25 Jun 17:30
I love the way so-called Scotland fans tend to downplay any success Steve Clarke has achieved. Apparently we were lucky to top our qualifying group because Denmark lost at home to Belarus. Does that not suggest Denmark weren`t good enough to win the group, which they could also have done by securing a point at Hampden?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Topic Originator: thebear
Date: Thu 25 Jun 17:34
Definitely, as well as a full review of scottiish football
|
|
|
|
|
|
Topic Originator: Foresters Par
Date: Thu 25 Jun 17:37
Steve Clarke has over achieved with a fairly average group of players. Cudos to him.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Topic Originator: Indiapar1
Date: Thu 25 Jun 17:39
I dont think that changing manager will achieve anything. Its far more complex than that. After all no manager in the past has got us into the next round of a major competition. Its back to a complete rethink about the game in Scotland, the league structure etc. Thats far more difficukt to address.
G Wardrope
|
|
|
|
|
|
Topic Originator: Dave_1885
Date: Thu 25 Jun 17:41
Quote:
wee eck, Thu 25 Jun 17:30
I love the way so-called Scotland fans tend to downplay any success Steve Clarke has achieved. Apparently we were lucky to top our qualifying group because Denmark lost at home to Belarus. Does that not suggest Denmark weren`t good enough to win the group, which they could also have done by securing a point at Hampden?
Denmark didn’t lose at home to Belarus.
And nobody is downplaying the fact that Steve Clarke, is our most successful manager in terms of getting us to major tournaments. But…..
We have flopped at those tournaments. If we get through this week, it will not be because of our own performance v Haiti, but because others don’t pick up the results required to catch us. You will most likely claim thats a positive because we got the result, but the way we qualify will be embarrassing.
Now, Clarke should get the Nations League later this year. If we don’t do well in that, he needs moved on. Bring in a fresh face pre Euros qualifiers. Take the hit.
Our stock is now much higher than previously - we’ve made 3 of the last 4 major tournaments and have Bal’on Dor nominees in our squad. A foreign manager might just get more out this squad and bring in fresh blood.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Topic Originator: ipswichpar
Date: Thu 25 Jun 17:44
Well, if he gets punted now after they have just signed a 4 year deal with him then all the decision makers need to go too.
He`ll be staying..... just as he should.
Bunch of snowflakes these days chucking toys out of prams when things aren`t perfect.
Can`t make a purse out of a sow`s ear.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Topic Originator: wee eck
Date: Thu 25 Jun 17:57
`Our stock is now much higher than previously - we’ve made 3 of the last 4 major tournaments...`
You don`t do irony, do you?
😊😊😊
|
|
|
|
|
|
Topic Originator: KirklistonPar
Date: Thu 25 Jun 18:18
The quality of Scottish football hasn’t changed that much since Craig Brown got us to the euro’s and World Cup, if anything it’s got worse, while lots of these so called small nations have massively improved. No easy games and the Euro’s or the World Cup. It’s just gutting to lose any game of football to such basic errors. Maybe qualifying is the pinnacle of what we can achieve as a small nation.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Topic Originator: SeasonedPar
Date: Thu 25 Jun 18:32
Isn’t it a very modern thing to call for someone to be sacked? Sack the board, the manager must go, we need a new Prime Minister.
The problems go much deeper. No strikers. Lack of depth.
I really think we’re out now, but if by some fluke we get through, I hope the squad put on a performance for the fantastic Tartan Army.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Topic Originator: WarringtonPar
Date: Thu 25 Jun 18:40
Quote:
Indiapar1, Thu 25 Jun 17:39
I dont think that changing manager will achieve anything. Its far more complex than that. After all no manager in the past has got us into the next round of a major competition. Its back to a complete rethink about the game in Scotland, the league structure etc. Thats far more difficukt to address.
I agree but tell me who’s going to instigate that?
No one very soon I’d wager so you’re left with a national coach who doesn’t seem to have any influence on the structure or direction of our game though id like to think he’d have tried too. Perhaps someone coming from outside can be the catalyst for wholesale change.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Topic Originator: WarringtonPar
Date: Thu 25 Jun 18:41
Quote:
SeasonedPar, Thu 25 Jun 18:32
Isn’t it a very modern thing to call for someone to be sacked? Sack the board, the manager must go, we need a new Prime Minister.
The problems go much deeper. No strikers. Lack of depth.
I really think we’re out now, but if by some fluke we get through, I hope the squad put on a performance for the fantastic Tartan Army.
They certainly deserve one.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Topic Originator: Indiapar1
Date: Thu 25 Jun 19:24
Quote:
WarringtonPar, Thu 25 Jun 18:40
Quote:
Indiapar1, Thu 25 Jun 17:39
I dont think that changing manager will achieve anything. Its far more complex than that. After all no manager in the past has got us into the next round of a major competition. Its back to a complete rethink about the game in Scotland, the league structure etc. Thats far more difficukt to address.
I agree but tell me who’s going to instigate that?
No one very soon I’d wager so you’re left with a national coach who doesn’t seem to have any influence on the structure or direction of our game though id like to think he’d have tried too. Perhaps someone coming from outside can be the catalyst for wholesale change.
I think thats my point WarringtonPar. The easiest route is to fet a new manager then nothing will change. The solution is a grass roots review of where football currently stands, league structure, the youth systems, progression into 1st team football, coaching etc. Etc. Steve Clarke didnt give the ball away for the first goal. Thats on players
G Wardrope
|
|
|
|
|
|
Topic Originator: WarringtonPar
Date: Thu 25 Jun 19:36
Quote:
Indiapar1, Thu 25 Jun 19:24
Quote:
WarringtonPar, Thu 25 Jun 18:40
Quote:
Indiapar1, Thu 25 Jun 17:39
I dont think that changing manager will achieve anything. Its far more complex than that. After all no manager in the past has got us into the next round of a major competition. Its back to a complete rethink about the game in Scotland, the league structure etc. Thats far more difficukt to address.
I agree but tell me who’s going to instigate that?
No one very soon I’d wager so you’re left with a national coach who doesn’t seem to have any influence on the structure or direction of our game though id like to think he’d have tried too. Perhaps someone coming from outside can be the catalyst for wholesale change.
I think thats my point WarringtonPar. The easiest route is to fet a new manager then nothing will change. The solution is a grass roots review of where football currently stands, league structure, the youth systems, progression into 1st team football, coaching etc. Etc. Steve Clarke didnt give the ball away for the first goal. Thats on players
No one can argue with your last comment but you could argue that the way he set the team up and asked them to play was entirely his doing. We don’t have one centre back who is particularly comfortable on the ball so why have them playing out from the back against one of the best frontlines in the world. I personally think Clarke is done for anyway, sadly not for the fact he’s a poor coach but for the way he handled the media after the game. He’ll get slaughtered the next time they perform as they did last night or struggle at Hampden. He has no personality whatsoever, always looking to be smart or argumentative and I think he crossed the line last night.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Topic Originator: Indiapar1
Date: Thu 25 Jun 19:46
Quote:
WarringtonPar, Thu 25 Jun 19:36
Quote:
Indiapar1, Thu 25 Jun 19:24
Quote:
WarringtonPar, Thu 25 Jun 18:40
Quote:
Indiapar1, Thu 25 Jun 17:39
I dont think that changing manager will achieve anything. Its far more complex than that. After all no manager in the past has got us into the next round of a major competition. Its back to a complete rethink about the game in Scotland, the league structure etc. Thats far more difficukt to address.
I agree but tell me who’s going to instigate that?
No one very soon I’d wager so you’re left with a national coach who doesn’t seem to have any influence on the structure or direction of our game though id like to think he’d have tried too. Perhaps someone coming from outside can be the catalyst for wholesale change.
I think thats my point WarringtonPar. The easiest route is to fet a new manager then nothing will change. The solution is a grass roots review of where football currently stands, league structure, the youth systems, progression into 1st team football, coaching etc. Etc. Steve Clarke didnt give the ball away for the first goal. Thats on players
No one can argue with your last comment but you could argue that the way he set the team up and asked them to play was entirely his doing. We don’t have one centre back who is particularly comfortable on the ball so why have them playing out from the back against one of the best frontlines in the world. I personally think Clarke is done for anyway, sadly not for the fact he’s a poor coach but for the way he handled the media after the game. He’ll get slaughtered the next time they perform as they did last night or struggle at Hampden. He has no personality whatsoever, always looking to be smart or argumentative and I think he crossed the line last night.
I think thats fair comment. I am sure his comments were a bit soon after the game. You need to sleep on it so he should know better. It was a bit negative to say we are out i wonder of there was a bit of dissent among the players. McTominay seemed quite upset at half time against Morocco. I think like any other job, you get the best from people if you play to their strengths.
G Wardrope
|
|
|
|
|
|
Topic Originator: Tad Allagash
Date: Thu 25 Jun 19:57
I don’t think you can say Clarke qualifying for a 48 team World Cup and a 24 team Euros makes him our most successful manger when you consider we qualified for an 8 team Euro 92 and a couple of 16 team World Cups in the 70’s.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Topic Originator: Jock Par36
Date: Thu 25 Jun 20:00
Yes it is time for a new Manager. Time and time again
has Clark used the wrong players in the wrong positions and
the wrong tactics. Too many times players are playing out
of their normal positions. He has stuck with players who
are simply not good enough. Hanley, Ralston Dykes and
Adams for starters. He has been loyal to these players for
far too long. Time for a Manager with a bit of foresight.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Topic Originator: SeasonedPar
Date: Thu 25 Jun 20:46
Quote:
Tad Allagash, Thu 25 Jun 19:57
I don’t think you can say Clarke qualifying for a 48 team World Cup and a 24 team Euros makes him our most successful manger when you consider we qualified for an 8 team Euro 92 and a couple of 16 team World Cups in the 70’s.
Steve Clarke is the best and most successful manager in modern Scottish national team history, having made history as the first manager to guide Scotland to three consecutive major tournaments: UEFA Euro 2020, Euro 2024, and the World Cup.While Clarke holds the modern record for consistency and tournament qualifications, the debate over Scotland`s all-time greatest manager encompasses a few legendary figures:Sir Alex Ferguson: Widely regarded as one of the greatest football managers of all time. Though best known for his unparalleled club success at Manchester United, he notably stepped in to manage the Scotland national team during the 1986 World Cup following the tragic passing of Jock Stein.Jock Stein: A legendary figure in Scottish football, Stein led Celtic to historic European Cup success and successfully managed the national team, guiding them to the 1982 World Cup in Spain.Andy Roxburgh: Managed Scotland at both the 1990 World Cup and Euro 1992, and boasts a 33.3% win record in major tournaments, tying him among the most successful tournament bosses.Willie Ormond: Praised for his tactical achievements, Ormond successfully steered the squad to the 1974 World Cup finals in West Germany.
Source - AI.
Post Edited (Thu 25 Jun 20:57)
|
|
|
|
|
|
Topic Originator: Dave_1885
Date: Thu 25 Jun 20:52
Quote:
SeasonedPar, Thu 25 Jun 20:46
Quote:
Tad Allagash, Thu 25 Jun 19:57
I don’t think you can say Clarke qualifying for a 48 team World Cup and a 24 team Euros makes him our most successful manger when you consider we qualified for an 8 team Euro 92 and a couple of 16 team World Cups in the 70’s.
Steve Clarke is the best and most successful manager in modern Scottish national team history, having made history as the first manager to guide Scotland to three consecutive major tournaments: UEFA Euro 2020, Euro 2024, and the World Cup.While Clarke holds the modern record for consistency and tournament qualifications, the debate over Scotland`s all-time greatest manager encompasses a few legendary figures:Sir Alex Ferguson: Widely regarded as one of the greatest football managers of all time. Though best known for his unparalleled club success at Manchester United, he notably stepped in to manage the Scotland national team during the 1986 World Cup following the tragic passing of Jock Stein.Jock Stein: A legendary figure in Scottish football, Stein led Celtic to historic European Cup success and successfully managed the national team, guiding them to the 1982 World Cup in Spain.Andy Roxburgh: Managed Scotland at both the 1990 World Cup and Euro 1992, and boasts a 33.3% win record in major tournaments, tying him among the most successful tournament bosses.Willie Ormond: Praised for his tactical achievements, Ormond successfully steered the squad to the 1974 World Cup finals in West Germany.
Youve shot yourself in the foot with the first sentence of your reply…..will let you figure that one out though 😂
|
|
|
|
|
|
Topic Originator: jake89
Date: Thu 25 Jun 21:43
How can it be three consecutive when 2022 is missing?
I like Clarke. Scotland`s success is having a pretty consistent line up who work well. The downside is some of them should really be replaced so others get a chance. Some of what we saw last night would embarrass the Pars u-18s!
|
|
|
|
|
|
Topic Originator: thebear
Date: Thu 25 Jun 21:43
It`s interesting, how we say no point in changing the manager as he has got us to a few big championships. If that`s the case let`s all accept mediocrity and that we are awful. I genuinely believe that we should be much better. There is no point in arguing who could have done better. The point we have to try and to try we have to change. No point in stating new manager same pool of players, so do nothing.
We need all stakeholders in Scottish football to get together and change stuff
That includes the big two, it`s not about having two big teams who using a team of foreigners struggle to qualify for the big cup. We need leagues where lots of Scots, play at our highest standard, we need less third tier leagues and we needcto re invigorating schools and mentoring, we also need to minimise foreign players, if that legal.
So SFA and SPFL sort it out and in 10 years it will be better
Post Edited (Thu 25 Jun 21:44)
|
|
|
|
|
|
Topic Originator: stevemac
Date: Thu 25 Jun 22:03
.....and yet many yearn for us as a club to go for guys like cacares ,amade and i suppose the irish guys,gilmour etc.
way,way,way too many players from outwith scotland in our leagues.
|
|
|
|
|
|
