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Topic Originator: Opelfruitloops
Date: Mon 6 Aug 16:11
Timing is the key. I don't envy Sturgeon. Get it wrong and the team is dead in the water. So She has to be patient and wait till she knows she can win. The only problem with that though is we'd be better getting independance before Brexit. It would make getting into the EU more likely. If we're out of Europe and the EU doesn't sound like letting us in would be easy some might be put of voting yes. So this us as real balancing act. After the Brexit vote I turned right round to yes. Can't see that changing. I was sickened by the picture of working class people in the North of England celebrating.
Be true to who you are
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Topic Originator: Tenruh
Date: Mon 6 Aug 17:57
Do we not need to have permission from England before indy2?
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Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks
Date: Mon 6 Aug 18:21
Yes
And although my eyes were open
They just might as well be closed
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Topic Originator: kelty_par
Date: Mon 6 Aug 19:27
If the Scottish Parliament asked the UK (Not English) Parliament to hold one and they refused, there would be a surge in the Yes vote. It's one thing wanting to remain part of the UK, but it's another thing to accept being told what Scotland can and can't do. To be fair, I can't see the UK Parliament denying it unless there was a large lead in the polls for a Yes vote - they know allowing it now would in all likelihood mean another No vote anyway.
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Topic Originator: Opelfruitloops
Date: Mon 6 Aug 22:21
Westminster would be very foolish to refuse. The issue really is timing. It's going to happen sooner or later.
Be true to who you are
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Topic Originator: AdamAntsParsStripe
Date: Mon 6 Aug 22:53
I think a Brexit no deal will seal it for another look at the question.
Zwei Pints Bier und ein Päckchen Chips bitte
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Topic Originator: Bertiesback
Date: Tue 7 Aug 10:49
It just shows how one sided the Act of Union was.
Surely if it had been done properly there would have been clauses covering the "Union" not working and either side could have negotiated out.
I wonder how the United Nations would look on a Union which was not intended as such but obviously became a subsumption.
Was it even legal for a few elected or not (who knows) titles and wealthy people to effectively hand over their country to a neighbour without either referendum or a means to opt out if it became unpopular or it wasn't working.
This was done remember so that these same "wealthy" landowners etc could recoup losses made in a questionable commercial venture which failed. Is that morally right to sell your country to cover such losses?
I find the whole idea bizarre.
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Topic Originator: Mario
Date: Tue 7 Aug 12:19
Raise it with the UN then, or declare UDI, stop moaning..don't be a bad loser, be a mad bad loser
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Topic Originator: Opelfruitloops
Date: Tue 7 Aug 13:18
The Unions legal. It was signed By The government of the day. OK the people didn't have a say but that was the way at the time. Start changing laws that wete made before universal suffrage and then slavery would become Legal and a host of laws and regulations would be scrapped. The point is its not an issue. The Union is legal. Then people had a referendum that ratified that Union. I say it's not an issue because I cannot see Westminster refusing another referendum. The issue really is only one of timing. When would be the optimum time to win. Get that wrong and any thoughts of independance ate dead in the water
Be true to who you are
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Topic Originator: Berkey
Date: Tue 7 Aug 13:38
I would say its early next year but I also think we wont need to have one as brexit will be cancelled by the turn of the year.
Back to being drenched in my own negativity….
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Topic Originator: desparado
Date: Tue 7 Aug 14:45
As much as I am an advocate of independence, I can’t understand why many Indy supporters want a referendum before Brexit. Whether we like it or not we are going to have to wait until that fiasco plays out. If we come out ....hard Brexit/ No deal then a referendum gets called.....no permission required from WM .....and a guaranteed Yes vote.
If Brexit gets cancelled , a second referendum gets called or it goes to a parliamentary vote then it all gets even more complicated and NS will have to keep her powder dry. There will need to be a second Indy ref in this Holyrood parliamentary term though as the Scot Gov has a mandate to call one.
If it does not happen before then, then the next Holyrood election will be a defacto independence referendum anyway.
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Topic Originator: Mario
Date: Tue 7 Aug 16:33
"the next Holyrood election will be a defacto independence referendum anyway"
No it wouldn't..with that convoluted proportional representation system.
A Westminster one wouldn't be either. The SNP won most seats with only 37% of the vote,only 25% of the electorate in fact
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Topic Originator: Tenruh
Date: Tue 7 Aug 17:36
Quote:
Mario, Tue 7 Aug 16:33
"the next Holyrood election will be a defacto independence referendum anyway"
No it wouldn't..with that convoluted proportional representation system.
A Westminster one wouldn't be either. The SNP won most seats with only 37% of the vote,only 25% of the electorate in fact
Well that will be that then, nothing like a little Englander telling the people living in Scotland what they can and cannot do.
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Topic Originator: AdamAntsParsStripe
Date: Tue 7 Aug 17:37
Quote:
desparado, Tue 7 Aug 14:45
As much as I am an advocate of independence, I can’t understand why many Indy supporters want a referendum before Brexit. Whether we like it or not we are going to have to wait until that fiasco plays out. If we come out ....hard Brexit/ No deal then a referendum gets called.....no permission required from WM .....and a guaranteed Yes vote.
If Brexit gets cancelled , a second referendum gets called or it goes to a parliamentary vote then it all gets even more complicated and NS will have to keep her powder dry. There will need to be a second Indy ref in this Holyrood parliamentary term though as the Scot Gov has a mandate to call one.
If it does not happen before then, then the next Holyrood election will be a defacto independence referendum anyway.
Spot on and this is the reason Nicola Sturgeon can't rush in.
To me, her biggest playing card is a no deal scenario, no trade deal anywhere, out of Europe and big business makes trouble.
The timing is absolutely crucial if it happens at all.
Zwei Pints Bier und ein Päckchen Chips bitte
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Topic Originator: Bertiesback
Date: Tue 7 Aug 18:14
"A Westminster one wouldn't be either. The SNP won most seats with only 37% of the vote,only 25% of the electorate in fact"
And what were the Tory figures in the UK election? I doubt they were much better.
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Topic Originator: Opelfruitloops
Date: Tue 7 Aug 21:23
Quote:
Bertiesback, Tue 7 Aug 18:14
"A Westminster one wouldn't be either. The SNP won most seats with only 37% of the vote,only 25% of the electorate in fact"
And what were the Tory figures in the UK election? I doubt they were much better.
Think the Tories got 43% and Labour 42%. Now the interesting thing there us Labour in 1997 got roughly the same percentage but won a massive majority . It shows the flaw of first past the post
Be true to who you are
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Topic Originator: Opelfruitloops
Date: Tue 7 Aug 21:24
But remember Bertie, although the SNP didn't get a majority of seats or votes there were other pro independance party. So overall the pro indy have a majority
Be true to who you are
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Topic Originator: moviescot
Date: Tue 7 Aug 22:27
Quote:
Opelfruitloops, Tue 7 Aug 21:23
Quote:
Bertiesback, Tue 7 Aug 18:14
"A Westminster one wouldn't be either. The SNP won most seats with only 37% of the vote,only 25% of the electorate in fact"
And what were the Tory figures in the UK election? I doubt they were much better.
Think the Tories got 43% and Labour 42%. Now the interesting thing there us Labour in 1997 got roughly the same percentage but won a massive majority . It shows the flaw of first past the post
More interesting is that with those figures, the Tories got 330 seats and labour only 232. This really shows the flaw in FPTP system.
Post Edited (Tue 07 Aug 22:27)
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Topic Originator: McCaig`s Tower
Date: Wed 8 Aug 10:15
But remember Bertie, although the SNP didn't get a majority of seats or votes there were other pro independance party. So overall the pro indy have a majority
Really? When was this?
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Topic Originator: Mario
Date: Wed 8 Aug 11:45
The SNP do not have a majority in Holyrood, but the Greens are in cahoots with them on Indy so that swings it as far as MSPs go.
Post Edited (Wed 08 Aug 12:14)
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Topic Originator: Mario
Date: Wed 8 Aug 12:09
Looking at the last UK GE stats, May actually got 42.4% of the vote an increase of 5.5% on 2015 and the best Tory vote share since 1983.
Cameron never got near that, but she still suffered a catastrophic loss of 13 seats. Thus the cookie crumbles in strange ways.
Labour on 40%, up 9.6% gained 30 seats.
In Scotland the SNP vote of 0.978m was dwarfed by the combined non Indy party vote of 1.656m, which is why the hot heads are eager to bypass a Ref with UDI - MPs just walk out of Westminster, or seek assistance from the UN..
Post Edited (Wed 08 Aug 12:13)
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Topic Originator: Opelfruitloops
Date: Wed 8 Aug 13:09
Quote:
Mario, Wed 8 Aug 11:45
The SNP do not have a majority in Holyrood, but the Greens are in cahoots with them on Indy so that swings it as far as MSPs go.
In a nutshell Mario
Be true to who you are
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Topic Originator: Tenruh
Date: Wed 8 Aug 13:14
Scottish Parliament wasn't set up to have one party in full control.
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Topic Originator: AdamAntsParsStripe
Date: Wed 8 Aug 13:40
Quote:
Mario, Wed 8 Aug 12:09
Looking at the last UK GE stats, May actually got 42.4% of the vote an increase of 5.5% on 2015 and the best Tory vote share since 1983.
Cameron never got near that, but she still suffered a catastrophic loss of 13 seats. Thus the cookie crumbles in strange ways.
Labour on 40%, up 9.6% gained 30 seats.
In Scotland the SNP vote of 0.978m was dwarfed by the combined non Indy party vote of 1.656m, which is why the hot heads are eager to bypass a Ref with UDI - MPs just walk out of Westminster, or seek assistance from the UN..
Your argument is invalid as there are Indy supporters in all the other parties too.
Not everyone who wants independence votes SNP remember.
Zwei Pints Bier und ein Päckchen Chips bitte
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Topic Originator: AdamAntsParsStripe
Date: Wed 8 Aug 13:41
Quote:
Tenruh, Wed 8 Aug 13:14
Scottish Parliament wasn't set up to have one party in full control.
Yep. 2011 was a freak result unlikely to be repeated.
Zwei Pints Bier und ein Päckchen Chips bitte
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Topic Originator: Mario
Date: Wed 8 Aug 14:05
I can’t think of a reason why anyone who desires independence wouldn’t vote for the party that lives and breathes it. But I would be even more surprised if anyone who doesn’t does.
Then again perhaps they cancel each other out..
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Topic Originator: londonparsfan
Date: Wed 8 Aug 14:14
Around 25% of SNP voters are No voters.
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Topic Originator: Perkins
Date: Fri 10 Aug 17:57
"Topic Originator: AdamAntsParsStripe
Date: Tue 7 Aug 17:37
Spot on and this is the reason Nicola Sturgeon can't rush in.
To me, her biggest playing card is a no deal scenario, no trade deal anywhere, out of Europe and big business makes trouble.
The timing is absolutely crucial if it happens at all."
There would of course still be free trade with the rest of the UK. Leaving the UK to join the EU and thus ending free trade and free movement of people with the rest of the UK where two thirds of exports go sounds like it might be a hard sell.
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Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks
Date: Fri 10 Aug 18:56
You'd think that making trade with ones biggest trading partner more difficult would be hard sell but still England voted to leave the EU.
And although my eyes were open
They just might as well be closed
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Topic Originator: parbucks
Date: Fri 10 Aug 22:18
IndepenEnce is a pipe dream.
The Scottish economy depends on the rUK.
Time you Nats accepted it.
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Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks
Date: Fri 10 Aug 22:27
Is the rest of the UK going to stop trading with us if we are to dare to exercise our democratic right and go in alone? Would they be so bitter and twisted to harm themselves and punish us by making life difficult? Don't know if I'd want to be in a union with such types.
And although my eyes were open
They just might as well be closed
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Topic Originator: parbucks
Date: Fri 10 Aug 23:27
Towk
Isn’t that the same argument the U.K. has with the EU and yet the Nats and Remainers don’t seem to accept it?
Touché
Post Edited (Fri 10 Aug 23:31)
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Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks
Date: Fri 10 Aug 23:38
As Peterson said to Newman, gotcha. ;-)
And although my eyes were open
They just might as well be closed
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Topic Originator: DBP
Date: Sat 11 Aug 09:48
<<I can’t think of a reason why anyone who desires independence wouldn’t vote for the party that lives and breathes it. But I would be even more surprised if anyone who doesn’t does.
Then again perhaps they cancel each other out..>>
one of my friends is a big yes supporter (even had the sign in the garden) and has always voted labour.
i know another yes supporter who voted snp previously but labour last time in order to 'keep them honest', i.e. so the snp realise they need to still work hard
i know a fair few yes supporters in edinburgh at work who vote green
i do agree with what you've said but independence is bigger than the snp - was there not a large labour yes group last time?
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Topic Originator: Perkins
Date: Sat 11 Aug 10:00
"Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks
Date: Fri 10 Aug 22:27
Is the rest of the UK going to stop trading with us..."
Of course not. Nobody is suggesting that.
Trade obviously continues but it is no longer free from tariffs and quotas etc
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Topic Originator: AdamAntsParsStripe
Date: Sat 11 Aug 10:28
Quote:
parbucks, Fri 10 Aug 22:18
IndepenEnce is a pipe dream.
The Scottish economy depends on the rUK.
Time you Nats accepted it. no it doesn't
Nobody is saying an independent Scotland will be rich. But compare with Ireland and other countries with less resources than Scotland then you know you're talking mince just because you're unionist and for no other reason
Zwei Pints Bier und ein Päckchen Chips bitte
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