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Topic Originator: Bertiesback
Date: Wed 19 Sep 11:24
I can't help thinking that Project Fear ie the will of corporate Big Business, with the collusion of the media will dictate how this country (UK) will be run from now on.
Whether you voted stay or leave are you not appalled by how it is the unsubstantiated prophecies of doom which continue to dictate outcomes.
Time was that politicians had some gravitas, some knowledge, some dedication to what was the right thing to do.
At one time you could rely on the media to investigate and publish facts and try at least to print with a modicum of integrity. Now they are bought and paid for mouthpieces of the Establishment/corporate power.
Sadly I really do think civil unrest leading to revolution of a kind this country hasn't really seen before, is on the horizon.
What the people don't seem to see is that all these things the people are warned about, happen anyway, the only difference is they normally happen to the agenda of the Big Corporations and the Establishment.
The Leave vote was a blow for them because it wasn't their choice, by that I mean they don't mind paying huge numbers of employees off, closing down businesses, creating conflict etc but only when it is orchestrated by and part of their plans.
Voting means nothing now. Governments do what they want and it's never to make things better for the people it is what is best for the wealthy, themselves and the Establishment.
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Topic Originator: londonparsfan
Date: Wed 19 Sep 13:34
Some of the stuff on the risks of leaving has been complete overkill but it's not big business as whole that's dictating we should remain.
There are loads of business pro leave as they want to escape EU regulations or in the case of fishing try and limit foreign access to our waters.
Dyson as an example want to have tariffs removed to make imports of components cheaper and also they also want to avoid EU Regulations.
Tate & Lyle (now foreign owned not British) are pro leave as they want to be able to import more sugar cane and remove the protection around UK produced sugar beet afforded by the EU. Ironically if they win that battle it was damage domestic sugar beet producers and British Sugar who are still British owned.
That's just a couple of examples so it would be incorrect to characterise business as being remain only and Government is certainly not remain as you only have to look at the splits in the Tory party to see that Fox, BoJo (although he'll flip to whatever side thinks will give him most personal advantage), Davis, Rees Mogg and Gove are pro leave quite often down to political philosophy. Good example being the "draconian" EU Working Time Directive that a few of them want scrapped. Opening up the NHS to free competition in the private sector is another one.
The only collusion of the media is that it generates them money. The majority of the owners of the national press are Brexit supporters and as such their editorial lines follow it. They publish the more sensationist claims as it generates them click bait and then they can hold up the examples of the sensationist claims that don't come true as examples of it all being some sort of project fear.
It's clever on several levels in that it earns them revenue, galvanises support behind their owners ultimate political position and reduces real discussion about the real pros and cons behind leaving. The pro remain ones broadly do the same but focuss more on the negative consequences of leaving. Virtually nobody has ever tried to look at the totality of either choice and their respective pros and cons. The media has always been a reflection of the political ideologies of the owners and why their owners carry considerable clout in shaping UK politics. There's a reason the Daily Mail were promoting appeasement of Nazi Germany back in the day and it's not a new phenomenon.
In short both sides have come up with some astonishing amount of ****, fiddled spending limits on campaigning (interesting you didn't mention the politicians on that side of the argument), businesses are all pushing their own agenda (understandably) with finance and manufacturing with an exposure to the EU being pro remain and manufacturing or fishing etc without an exposure or whose activities are constrained by the EU being pro leave.
It's also worth remembering that job losses in the UK have already started, our growth whilst not having gone off the admittedly overstated cliff edge is down on where it should be, there's also considerable uncertainty over whether a deal on Brexit will be reached where we were told the EU would fall over themselves to deal with us.
You were leave and that's fair enough I can see why you'd be agitated by what you call project fear but you've not looked at the side you've voted for and highlighted all the areas the Leave campaign failed at.
David Davis as an example promised that by 2018 we'd be feeling the economic benefits of Brexit, we aren't. We were told the EU would be falling over themselves to strike a deal with us and it would be easy, it isn't and if a deal is done it will likely be more on their terms than ours. £350 million for the NHS? No signs of that. Oh and Turkey should be well on their way to being in the EU now, no sign of that. Environmental protections will be upheld but the principal of precaution was removed from the Brexit bill so a key piece of legislation is already removed. I'm not sure what the impact on fracking on Scotland is but the my understanding was that if businesses wanted to frack they had to prove conclusively that there would be no adverse impact to humans or the environment under the precautionary principle. Currently they can't do this so it is in effect "banned". That principle will be gone soon, can we still impose the will of 99% of the people of Scotland opposed to fracking or will Ineos be allowed to frack?
The things we're being warned about have been overstated in some instances but much of what is happening is not the course of normal business. The European medical agency and European banking authority leaving and taking jobs is not a normal cycle of business. Our growth is not where it would have been. The £ is not where it should be. Some have benefited from this some have not. The NHS has a record number of vacancies for nurses and doctors as EU nationals aren't applying for jobs in the same way they were. This isn't the norm and is a direct result of Brexit. The UK wants to make sovereign decisions and autonomy from the EU cpurts but will quite happily fall back on WTO for trade rules which is just a different union with an undemocratic appellant so is that not complete hypocrisy?
Overall it's not the establishment against the people, it's two vying sectors of business and Government (just about the establishment) splitting the opinions of people. Farage, Gove, Fox etc are as much the establishment as May, Cable, Hamond etc.
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Topic Originator: Bertiesback
Date: Wed 19 Sep 15:47
Good post londonparsfan and yes you are right about some "big" businesses but I think I am more referring to the type of huge businesses you saw in that investigation video on youtube into how and why certain massive money projects get done in the EU.
I think it was posted on here way back.
They are conglomerates and far bigger than Dyson. They are people like Swire, Tomkins, Tesco, Virgin, Hinduja - VW, Shell, BP, Glencore, AXA etc. Many of them are European but are inserting influence on the way this is all being perceived.
They are behind the bold EU rhetoric imo.
As long as they are psychologically influencing the perception of life after the EU, then of course we will have some of these slumps/indicators you mention.
These people have agencies that are professional propagandists and lobbyers.
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Topic Originator: Rastapari
Date: Wed 19 Sep 16:10
Democracy was bought and asset stripped years ago, no disrespect but all that is background noise.
You believe those at the top serve the people ahead of corporate interest..cute.
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Topic Originator: Jbob
Date: Wed 19 Sep 16:44
Time for more Bilderberg nonsense.
Bobs of the world unite
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Topic Originator: Rastapari
Date: Wed 19 Sep 17:44
Quote:
Jbob, Wed 19 Sep 16:44
Time for more Bilderberg nonsense.
Bless....did I have a night with your bird or something?
You think politicians are on the level?
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Topic Originator: Jbob
Date: Wed 19 Sep 18:13
Lets pick that response apart.
Personal attack- yes it was.
Do I think politicians are on the level? No but that doesn't mean that every conspiracy theory about the establishment is correct either.
On the level? Is that a Freemason reference?
And yes I am fine today thenaks..
Bobs of the world unite
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Topic Originator: Rastapari
Date: Wed 19 Sep 18:39
Quote:
Jbob, Wed 19 Sep 18:13
Lets pick that response apart.
Personal attack- yes it was.
Do I think politicians are on the level? No but that doesn't mean that every conspiracy theory about the establishment is correct either.
On the level? Is that a Freemason reference?
And yes I am fine today thenaks..
Care to illustrate where I mention conspiracy theories?
I'm simply saying politicians favour is bought, simple, you're just fishing for a bite.
On the personal attack....bless.
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Topic Originator: Jbob
Date: Wed 19 Sep 18:45
Bilderberg is right up there for the conspiracy fantasists. As well you know.
Bobs of the world unite
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Topic Originator: Rastapari
Date: Wed 19 Sep 19:13
Quote:
Jbob, Wed 19 Sep 18:45
Bilderberg is right up there for the conspiracy fantasists. As well you know.
So, in your opinion, what is Bilderberg?
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Topic Originator: Jbob
Date: Wed 19 Sep 21:23
A hotel, brown owls and suspicious minds.
And you/
Bobs of the world unite
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Topic Originator: Rastapari
Date: Thu 20 Sep 06:39
Quote:
Jbob, Wed 19 Sep 21:23
A hotel, brown owls and suspicious minds.
And you/
You deny it exists?
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Topic Originator: moviescot
Date: Thu 20 Sep 07:52
I love when people answer a question with a question. Really moves the debate on. 😂
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Topic Originator: Jbob
Date: Thu 20 Sep 09:39
Bilderberg does exist.
In my view it is a secret ish club for the intelligentsia and others to while away a few hours and play some golf.
Now your answer?
Bobs of the world unite
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Topic Originator: Rastapari
Date: Thu 20 Sep 14:06
Quote:
Jbob, Thu 20 Sep 09:39
Bilderberg does exist.
In my view it is a secret ish club for the intelligentsia and others to while away a few hours and play some golf.
Now your answer?
I think it is powerful business men influencing politicians and the media.
There's a cracking picture of Osborne and the cancer man that illustrates it rather well.
A round of golf?
Yeah...that's what It's about eh.
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Topic Originator: calpar
Date: Fri 21 Sep 02:21
It is unless we get a second brexit vote on the deal
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