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 Neale Hanvey
Topic Originator: shrek par  
Date:   Sun 7 Feb 17:42

Ex local Councillor turned MP in more soapy bubble. Seems to be a magnet for it wherever he is , dunf/kdy/Westminster.

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 Re: Neale Hanvey
Topic Originator: jake89  
Date:   Sun 7 Feb 18:56

Was he not just put into a new role?
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 Re: Neale Hanvey
Topic Originator: shrek par  
Date:   Sun 7 Feb 19:23

Aye lasted 4 days

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 Re: Neale Hanvey
Topic Originator: jake89  
Date:   Sun 7 Feb 23:10

Just read about it. Bit of a daft thing to do but I'd say well done on refusing to apologise if he truly believed in the sponsorship he offered.

I'll be honest and say I have no clue what is going on in terms of these arguments about trans people. It seems everyone wants equality but more equality for whatever group they fall into. Also seems that anyone voicing an opinion on either side of the argument is instantly hounded with demands they should lose their job.

Can anyone explain it to me? I saw JK Rowling getting in bother and Graham Linehan seems to be on the hitlist.
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 Re: Neale Hanvey
Topic Originator: shrek par  
Date:   Mon 8 Feb 00:14

Reckon it's being used as a proxy front for an internal civil war for control of the party.

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 Re: Neale Hanvey
Topic Originator: Wotsit  
Date:   Mon 8 Feb 13:47

There's a more general "debate" in left of centre politics between those who favour identity politics and those who favour intersectionality - this is a part of that


"Who you are and what you feel comes not just from inside you, but from where you are in the power structure"
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 Re: Neale Hanvey
Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks  
Date:   Mon 8 Feb 14:36

The whole trans right debate has me absolutely flummoxed. Probably because there doesn`t seem to be a debate. Anyone who seems to raise any concerns or discussion points is immediately labelled a transphobe. Now it`s quite possible that some of the people making these points are indeed transphobic and are merely out to cause mischief and grief but I can`t believe that applies to everyone.
Wotsit, I think I know what you mean by identity politics (though maybe you could explain it as well) but what is intersectionality?

We all hate poverty, war, and injustice.
Unlike the rest of you squares.
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 Re: Neale Hanvey
Topic Originator: Rastapari  
Date:   Mon 8 Feb 16:55

A Mr Hanvey, champion of local developers.....well, one of them.

Carole Baskin fed Rasta to a tiger.
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 Re: Neale Hanvey
Topic Originator: Wotsit  
Date:   Mon 8 Feb 18:00

Intersectionality is basically where you look at a person`s experience as an individual, how different forces and aspects of them interact to create their experience.

So in our culture a black woman will experience womanhood differently from a white woman and blackness differently from a black man.

Take being a Pars fan - it`s a different experience depending on loads of things such as age, height, gender, where you live, your relationship with alcohol, all that stuff so you can`t create a single "Pars fan" identity,

Radical feminists see female sex (in the genetic sense) as being key to a woman`s experience, whereas intersectional feminists see it as a part of a more complex and interconnected whole.

Post Edited (Mon 08 Feb 18:02)
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 Re: Neale Hanvey
Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks  
Date:   Mon 8 Feb 19:51

Thanks for the reply Wotsit and I think I get it. Not sure it helps me to know where I stand on trans issues though other than to continue treating people with respect and consideration.

We all hate poverty, war, and injustice.
Unlike the rest of you squares.
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 Re: Neale Hanvey
Topic Originator: AdamAntsParsStripe  
Date:   Mon 8 Feb 21:02

To simplify it a bit, I don’t think it’s so much to do with transgender people who have went through , what I’d guess is a very difficult journey being in female spaces but the new law they’re trying to pass that any man (in particular) can simply self ID as a woman, no questions asked and be allowed to be in biological women’s safe spaces such as rape crisis centres, safe houses , changing rooms for women and girls and they wouldn’t be allowed to challenge it in law even the person self ID’ing goes in with a big hairy beard and mans clothing.

Zwei Pints Bier und ein Päckchen Chips bitte
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 Re: Neale Hanvey
Topic Originator: sammer  
Date:   Mon 8 Feb 22:32

Is gender identification the burning issue in Scottish politics? Well it may be to many of the leading players at both Holyrood and Westminster.

In the previous Holyrood parliament the leaders of both the Labour and Conservative groupings were lesbian. The present leader of the Greens identifies as being bisexual and his predecessor spent some time campaigning on behalf of gay issues. Of course it’s true to say that a leader does not necessarily reflect the balance of a party, and in Holyrood terms these groupings are little more than fringe parties anyhow. Nonetheless it seems a remarkably high percentage of party leaders for whom the concept of gender identification has been a personal issue in their life.

The SNP has a shadow cabinet of around 23 at Westminster led by Ian Blackford. Of these, five have stated for the record that they are somewhere on the LGBT spectrum, something close to 20%. Again, this seems to be a high figure although I have not lived in Scotland for some time and am relying on my impressions mostly from last century.

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 Re: Neale Hanvey
Topic Originator: jake89  
Date:   Mon 8 Feb 22:57

The issue is that there's no easy solution. I do find it odd that the assumption always seems to be that a man (or man identifying as a woman) will be a predator.

I have to say I would probably find it challenging if I were trans to know which facilities to use. That's the benefit of the likes of the Carnegie and Cowdenbeath pools where the changing facilities are unisex. Much less common for toilets though.

The bigger issue will be things like support groups that are set up specifically for men or women.
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 Re: Neale Hanvey
Topic Originator: Wotsit  
Date:   Mon 8 Feb 23:09

There's also the situation where the sex rather than the gender of a person is what makes someone feel unsafe, so even if somebody has, for example, undergone successful hormone treatment but has yet to have surgery, considering the greater good can can be necessary when considering something like crisis accomodation.


"Who you are and what you feel comes not just from inside you, but from where you are in the power structure"
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 Re: Neale Hanvey
Topic Originator: red-star-par  
Date:   Mon 8 Feb 23:25

Maybe the solution is just that people have to accept that while they may want to be something that they are not, the simple fact of the matter is, they can't be.
I seen a big hairy guy with a beard in Edinburgh one day, dressed up in the type of dress you would see a 5 year old girl in, with a flower in his hair. He maybe identified as a 5 year old girl, but the fact is he was a 30 odd year old man.
Ever since I was a kid, I've wanted to be centre forward for Dunfermline Athletic. Unfortunately I was born rubbish at football. I could get dressed up in the full kit with Number 9 on the back and demand my right to identify as being the Pars striker, but I wouldn't fancy my chances of getting a game. You can't always get what you want
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 Re: Neale Hanvey
Topic Originator: Wotsit  
Date:   Tue 9 Feb 12:09

That feeds into the difference between sex and gender RSP.

A radical feminist would argue that a woman is defined by genetics (sex) whereas an intersectional feminist would say that a woman is defined by multiple factors, including gender which they see as a social construct separate from sex.

So basically, yes, nobody can change their sex, however intersectionality would argue that sex and genetics play a minor role in womanhood and that gender is a spectrum unlike sex.


"Who you are and what you feel comes not just from inside you, but from where you are in the power structure"


Post Edited (Tue 09 Feb 12:10)
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 Re: Neale Hanvey
Topic Originator: Parboiled  
Date:   Tue 9 Feb 14:52

Don`t suppose there is much chance of the Mister and Missus TV quiz returning any time soon?

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 Re: Neale Hanvey
Topic Originator: McCaig`s Tower  
Date:   Wed 10 Feb 15:26

The whole original suspension story wasn’t particularly edifying - a foolish tweet uncovered then a rather half-hearted suspension. I suspect it was (and this is) more about being on the “wrong” side of the debate.

As has been suggested, this is a huge minefield and it is difficult to have a rational debate.

Veering slightly off-topic (but potentially into equally controversial matters) this affair may prompt consideration of a couple of issues that haven’t gained much traction (yet).

One is the possibility of trans people competing in sport where they may have an unfair advantage. We saw a little of that back in the 70s when Reneé Richards started competing in professional ladies’ events. The issue was dodged a little IMO as she, was, basically, past her prime.

The other is the possibility of someone self-identifying as a woman (for example) and competing at amateur level down your local club.

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 Re: Neale Hanvey
Topic Originator: Wotsit  
Date:   Wed 10 Feb 17:18

I`d say that the topic of sports is actually, along with refuge services and crisis accommodation, a good symbol the difference between sex and gender.

That men are, more often that not, physically stronger than women is not really up for debate - that`s a function of the way our genetics work during our development and in my view that should be taken into account when we are trying crate fair sporting matches as well as to keep people safe.

Basically, I see those two situations as being governed more by sex than gender. But it still leaves the question of where we do allow trans or non-binary people to take part in competitive sport and how we respond when a trans person requires safe accommodation.

More potential issues arise when we consider that gender reassignments are beginning to be carried out pre-puberty and the genetic differences become much less of an issue because, for example, a male to female trans person would go through puberty with female hormones and would therefore develop a feminine physique: they would develop breasts, wide hips and a slighter figure whilst they wouldn`t grow beards or develop a deep voice. Their possession of a penis would still be an issue for crisis accommodation but it would be much greyer when it comes to competitive sport I suspect.


"Who you are and what you feel comes not just from inside you, but from where you are in the power structure"
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 Re: Neale Hanvey
Topic Originator: Luxembourg Par  
Date:   Wed 10 Feb 17:37

Sport is a very visible example.

It`s simply not fair to have a male compete in female sports.

There is a massive difference (as Wotsit alludes to) in a human body after puberty - strength, muscle mass, aggression - due to testosterone levels.

Reassignments are one thing, if you want to be the other gender and have the operations/hormones etc etc - go for it, your choice

- but the possibility of `self-identifying` as female then competing?

No, no and thrice NO

- even worse for combat sports!

Now don`t get me wrong, there are fine female athletes and some very tough female fighters, but it`s not the same.
Anyone claiming that they are needs a seeing to.

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 Re: Neale Hanvey
Topic Originator: shrek par  
Date:   Wed 10 Feb 21:55

The IAAF and the IOC banned Caster Semenya after failing a "sex test" . Ruling she had an unfair biological advantage due to her genetic makeup. I'm sure this would be the go to ruling by the athletics governing bodies.

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 Re: Neale Hanvey
Topic Originator: sammer  
Date:   Wed 10 Feb 23:16

The women’s 800 metres record is still standing from 1983, the longest standing in athletics history. If you ever saw the formidable Jarmila Kratochvilova of Czechoslovakia run then you will not be surprised to know she would take some beating by any other female athlete. She looked distinctly masculine both in appearance and running action.

Back then we were fed the propaganda that all Eastern bloc athletes were on drugs, whereas the Western athletes were completely clean. Having seen older athletes like Kratochvilova, Allan Wells and Linford Christie suddenly emerge as record breakers I remained sceptical at the time and now assume all athletes take some form of drug enhancement. Some of these drugs, such as in gymnastics, must be to delay puberty in female competitors to allow more elasticity.

sammer
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 Re: Neale Hanvey
Topic Originator: Luxembourg Par  
Date:   Thu 11 Feb 08:23

Wouldn`t want to fight her...



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 Re: Neale Hanvey
Topic Originator: shrek par  
Date:   Thu 11 Feb 13:12

Sport, especially Athletics and cycling has always had an unhealthy relationship with boundary pushing medicine. From the guy who takes injections to get that extra season out their career, to the institutional doping by teams,countries and coaches. Need an extra bit of endurance or a second off your time? Go see the doctor.

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 Re: Neale Hanvey
Topic Originator: Luxembourg Par  
Date:   Thu 11 Feb 14:43

The doping in sports is as Shrek says, drugs cannot turn `average Joe` into a superstar, but when 0.5 seconds can be the difference between no medal and a gold, with it`s associated fame and riches to follow...



Anyway - I fear we are veering way off topic now...



Regarding the `trans-rights`

I don`t see why the perceived rights of a few disgruntled individuals are allowed to over-right the rights of everyone else, and anyone raising a question is instantly attacked by the ever-offended woke left.

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 Re: Neale Hanvey
Topic Originator: sammer  
Date:   Thu 11 Feb 23:08

What you describe as the ‘woke left’ might be an irritation but at least their activities are normally confined to chanting in the streets, pushing up against police lines and dumping the occasional statue.

Those violently opposed to ‘left wokism’ have a great deal more blood on their hands. So far the UK has been spared the worst excesses of the reactionary right although we have had an MP shot dead in the street and a few years back a nail bomber who exploded bombs in gay bars. The USA needless to say has had a number of slaughters, whilst Australia and New Zealand have not been spared massacres either. The worst attack of all was in Norway when a meeting of socialist youth was subjected to mass execution when they were trapped on an island by a white supremacist.

Overall it is much safer to be `attacked` by the `woke left` than to be attacked by the reactionary right.

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 Re: Neale Hanvey
Topic Originator: Luxembourg Par  
Date:   Fri 12 Feb 12:18

Ahhh - that makes it alright then...

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 Re: Neale Hanvey
Topic Originator: jake89  
Date:   Fri 12 Feb 12:30

The way I look at it is "what reasonable adjustments can be made to be inclusive". If you look at modern facilities,.as.an example, they'll be designed with ramped access, unisex facilities, maybe individual showers etc. That's fairly easy to implement. However, if you looked at a historic building, that would be either impossible or very expensive to achieve.

And that's just looking at something straightforward like facilities. As others have mentioned, how do you then define who can/cannot access services aimed directly at men or women?

Personal opinion is that things like title should be binned but there are always going to be situations where you will clearly need to be identified by your sex (as opposed to gender).
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 Re: Neale Hanvey
Topic Originator: sammer  
Date:   Fri 12 Feb 19:24

``Ahhh - that makes it alright then..``

Yes, I do think it makes it all right. Lively protest is the sign of a healthy society unless you are Priti Patel who said today, ‘I don’t support protest.’ She then had to backtrack a bit but I’ve no doubt the truth had slipped out. She was itching for water cannon at the very least when the words BLM came into the question.

For me, what are described as ‘woke’ are very often superficial issues that garner publicity without any deeper sense of what lies behind the problem. I suspect they serve as a useful diversion for more pertinent matters, hence the publicity and controversy they generate in media.

Gender identification is surely an issue which affects a tiny percentage of the population although it still has to be addressed and there are obviously knock on effects of any legal changes for society as a whole. Unless this is a matter which is being used as a smokescreen for personal vendettas within the SNP, it demonstrates a lack of political priority in my view.

sammer
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 Re: Neale Hanvey
Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks  
Date:   Fri 12 Feb 19:29

Protests are indeed a sign of a healthy society or at least a healthy democracy.

We all hate poverty, war, and injustice.
Unlike the rest of you squares.
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 Re: Neale Hanvey
Topic Originator: Wotsit  
Date:   Fri 12 Feb 23:00

In this particular case sammer it`s at least partly about who can access certain reserved/safe spaces, something which potentially impacts all women, a great many of whom know it, so it`s not such a minority issue - which is why it is playing out at the top level of Scottish politics.


"Who you are and what you feel comes not just from inside you, but from where you are in the power structure"
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 Re: Neale Hanvey
Topic Originator: sammer  
Date:   Fri 12 Feb 23:23

Wotsit,

Yes, I take your point and I did refer to the knock-on effect of any legislation. I wouldn`t have thought it was an area where a common sense solution couldn`t be found, but probably I have underestimated the complexity of the problem.

sammer
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 Re: Neale Hanvey
Topic Originator: donj  
Date:   Sat 13 Feb 00:04

I couldn`t really care less if a guy wants to say he is female.What I disagree with is men using ladies facilities unless they have gone through the sex change procedure.Gents toilets have cubicles and nobody forces anybody to use showers or changing rooms at the same time.
Why this all such a big issue with the SNP I have no idea.It seems to be creating a mad situation with women`s rights.

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 Re: Neale Hanvey
Topic Originator: Luxembourg Par  
Date:   Sat 13 Feb 02:23

You`re justifying "attacks" because they are not as violent as another groups "attacks"?
Really?

I`m assuming that you will run to my defense when I punch someone for looking at me strangely, because obviously if it happened in USA it might have been a shooting instead of a skelp?

You`re as bad as OF supporters with their `whatabootery`.

"What we do is acceptable because the other lot are worse"

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 Re: Neale Hanvey
Topic Originator: sammer  
Date:   Sat 13 Feb 10:43

In the unlikely event of your attending a ‘woke’ demonstration and slapping someone in the face, you can rest easy. A competent lawyer will have no problem getting you off with a fine and being bound over to keep the peace, presuming you are of previous good conduct.

The problem would come should you decide to speak on your own behalf and expand on your concept of moral equivalence, explaining to the sheriff that slapping a face is as much a crime as shooting someone or storming a government building. Anyone trying to split hairs about this is guilty of ‘whataboutery.’ You might even call Priti Patel as an expert witness, the better to show that pulling down a statue is as much of a crime as slavery itself, much as kneeling on a pavement is as provocative an act as kneeling on someone’s neck.

When bank robber Matt Lygate, a man of the Maoist left, attempted this form of logic in a Scottish court he was sentenced to 24 years: 10 years for the robberies and 14 years for his speech according to learned counsel.

sammer
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 Re: Neale Hanvey
Topic Originator: Luxembourg Par  
Date:   Sat 13 Feb 13:03

Not MY `moral equivalence` - you are the one stating that anything the left does is ok because the other side do worse.

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 Re: Neale Hanvey
Topic Originator: sammer  
Date:   Sat 13 Feb 22:02

I never defended violence in a demonstration, having been on several myself, unlike yourself I guess. Nor did anyone else here. We are still waiting for you to acknowledge that Right wing actions are more lethal than `woke` ones from the Left. You seem reluctant to do this, presumably because your deeper sympathies lie with killers of socialists, MPs, citizens in shopping malls and police defending democracy. Welcome to Weimar. Or USA 2020 after today`s decision.

I think you`re frightened for your money. I think you`re right to be. But it won`t be the `woke` leftists who steal it.

sammer
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 Re: Neale Hanvey
Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks  
Date:   Sat 13 Feb 22:42

Right wing governments do tend to crack down more harshly on public protests.

We all hate poverty, war, and injustice.
Unlike the rest of you squares.
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 Re: Neale Hanvey
Topic Originator: shrek par  
Date:   Sun 28 Mar 16:05

Jumped ship to the Alba party now.

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 Re: Neale Hanvey
Topic Originator: Jbob  
Date:   Mon 29 Mar 14:56

Much more to the Hanvey story than is public.

Bobs of the world unite
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