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 Wealth Creators
Topic Originator: Wotsit  
Date:   Sun 26 Sep 13:53

Mr Goxx the hamster is outperforming the market by trading cryptocurrency in a cage hooked up to essentially trade randomly.

So, remind me, what purpose does capitalism serve when a hamster can do better?


"Who you are and what you feel comes not just from inside you, but from where you are in the power structure"
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 Re: Wealth Creators
Topic Originator: londonparsfan  
Date:   Sun 26 Sep 14:34

I'm not by any stretch of the imagination saying that capitalism is a good thing but folk that understand business and how to value shares aren't going to lose to a hamster in the long run when comparing returns.

The Crypto Markets are also way more volatile than than other markets so its easier for the hamster to hit a few lucky trades to put in profit.

Warren Buffet has said one of the best investments you can make is to find a fund that passively tracks the S&P500. Finding the spare cash to make those kind of investments is the problem for most people but I bet it outperforms the hamster in the long term.
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 Re: Wealth Creators
Topic Originator: Wotsit  
Date:   Sun 26 Sep 15:17

I agree to an extent LPF and whilst I was maybe saying do in a flippant way, I think that what this highlights for me is that our current method for deciding where resources go might be somewhat flawed.

I work with people at the very bottom of society in terms of their priority for resource provision; many of them don`t even have a roof over their heads. However some of them are incredibly smart, maybe a few are even as smart as Warren Buffet.

The difference is that Warren Buffet`s family weren`t destitute (far from it), so they were able to provide him with at least the resources made available to Mr Maxx: somewhere safe and warm to live; some mental stimulation and enough food.

We can`t keep our children out of poverty or our adults from literal destitution because we allow privileged individuals like Buffet to hoard vast wealth when they create nothing of any tangible value themselves. We do, however, seem to get upset when a footballer earns a miniscule fraction of Buffet`s income for doing something that no hamster, no matter how talented or lucky, could achieve - basically get back to me when a hamster scores the winning header in the Champions League Final!

Our priorities are all wrong.


"Who you are and what you feel comes not just from inside you, but from where you are in the power structure"
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 Re: Wealth Creators
Topic Originator: londonparsfan  
Date:   Sun 26 Sep 15:25

Pretty much all of that I agree with mate!
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 Re: Wealth Creators
Topic Originator: Malcolm Canmore  
Date:   Tue 28 Sep 18:37

Quote:

Wotsit, Sun 26 Sep 15:17

I agree to an extent LPF and whilst I was maybe saying do in a flippant way, I think that what this highlights for me is that our current method for deciding where resources go might be somewhat flawed.

I work with people at the very bottom of society in terms of their priority for resource provision; many of them don`t even have a roof over their heads. However some of them are incredibly smart, maybe a few are even as smart as Warren Buffet.

The difference is that Warren Buffet`s family weren`t destitute (far from it), so they were able to provide him with at least the resources made available to Mr Maxx: somewhere safe and warm to live; some mental stimulation and enough food.

We can`t keep our children out of poverty or our adults from literal destitution because we allow privileged individuals like Buffet to hoard vast wealth when they create nothing of any tangible value themselves. We do, however, seem to get upset when a footballer earns a miniscule fraction of Buffet`s income for doing something that no hamster, no matter how talented or lucky, could achieve - basically get back to me when a hamster scores the winning header in the Champions League Final!

Our priorities are all wrong.


How many pension funds are invested in Berkshire Hathaway? How many pensioners (round the world, not just USA) have better pension expectations because Mr Buffet’s fund has performed extraordinarily well? How many jobs have been created because Mr Buffet’s fund has provided investment capital?

Mr Buffet does not make money for the fun of it or to spend it. He owns one property - the five-bedroom house he has lived in for most of his life. He invests because he is a wealth creator, creating wealth for millions of people.

My dog eats meat
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 Re: Wealth Creators
Topic Originator: Wotsit  
Date:   Wed 29 Sep 08:24

Warren Buffet doesn't create anything though. The workers at the companies whose shares his companies manipulate create that value which Warren Buffet then siphons off for his own purposes.

Nothing new of any value is created by Warren Buffet: he moves value from one place to another and takes a cut in the process.


"Who you are and what you feel comes not just from inside you, but from where you are in the power structure"
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 Re: Wealth Creators
Topic Originator: sammer  
Date:   Wed 29 Sep 11:23

Wealth creation is not the same as wealth accumulation. Wealth is created by human endeavour whereas those who play money markets are merely poncing on the profits that have been made by workers of hand and brain.

What these speculators do is mostly legal but little different in kind from the local mobster who delights in sponsoring sports clubs, investing in local entertainment venues and taxis and handing over cheques for good causes from his ill-gotten gains. This allows him to claim he is an integral part of the local economy and community which is partly true, but the community would be a lot healthier without him or his equivalents in high finance.

sammer
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 Re: Wealth Creators
Topic Originator: Wotsit  
Date:   Wed 29 Sep 22:34

He basically "owns" the work of others and freeloads off of it using other people`s pension savings as capital.

That he happens to do it in a particularly successful manner is neither here nor there. Particularly since he will be using the computer algorithms designed by, albeit well paid, employees who are far more skilled mathematicians than Mr Buffett.



Post Edited (Wed 29 Sep 22:34)
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 Re: Wealth Creators
Topic Originator: jake89  
Date:   Thu 30 Sep 13:36

Wealth is always an interesting one. We sit today in Dunfermline surrounded by things given to the town by Andrew Carnegie. What a nice man to have done all these things. However, you could argue that, if he'd paid his employees more, their taxes and expenditures would have provided a welcome boost to the economy allowing for libraries, parks and museums (obviously in Pittsburgh rather than Dunfermline!).

The same applies in modern Dunfermline. Thousands of people working for barely minimum wage in the Amazon workhouse whilst the owner is raking in billions and paying very little tax through perfectly legal loopholes. He'll donate some cash for new computers in schools or give money to a charity, but if his business paid more tax and gave more to their employees, this money would naturally come to the government and local authorities.

However, we will always have this issue until the whole world unites on fair taxation. Jeff Bezos is paying exactly what he legally has to in the same way most of us will too. It's not his fault that it's incredibly easy to pay very little tax. I've worked with contractors who can very easily avoid paying lots in taxes, and who can blame them? Yes, there's that moral duty, but if someone gave you the option of paying £10 to go and watch the Pars or pay £100, which would you choose (admittedly you may wish to paid NOT to go!)
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 Re: Wealth Creators
Topic Originator: donj  
Date:   Fri 1 Oct 19:47

As far as contracting goes I must admit years ago having an umbrella company and paying myself minimum wage but also a company dividend every week so around a thousand a week plus the company I was contracted to paid petrol allowance and hotel expenses.This was around 20 years ago.
Admittedly no sick pay or holiday pay so as I employed myself I had to cover all the employment expense myself.

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 Re: Wealth Creators
Topic Originator: jake89  
Date:   Fri 1 Oct 20:21

Everyone does that so nothing to feel guilty about.
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 Re: Wealth Creators
Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks  
Date:   Fri 1 Oct 21:58

Well they do say everyone is a Tory at heart.

We all hate poverty, war, and injustice.
Unlike the rest of you squares.
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 Re: Wealth Creators
Topic Originator: jake89  
Date:   Sat 2 Oct 07:56

Quote:

The One Who Knocks, Fri 1 Oct 21:58

Well they do say everyone is a Tory at heart.


I trust you pay more than the 19-46% income tax rate? Bung a extra few quid to HMRC?

No-one will pay more than they have to. The Government permits this so it's perfectly understandable that people will only pay what they owe.

Jeff Bezos has said in the past he'd like to pay more tax, but then it needs someone to bill him. I'm sure he's probably paid a lower % of his income in tax than I have!
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 Re: Wealth Creators
Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks  
Date:   Sat 2 Oct 09:36

That`s what I`m saying. Nobody will pay more than they need to. Just have to hope that the invisible hand in action theory is correct. Of course I don`t have a choice over how much tax I pay as I`m paye.

We all hate poverty, war, and injustice.
Unlike the rest of you squares.
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 Re: Wealth Creators
Topic Originator: Wotsit  
Date:   Sun 3 Oct 09:56

The bottom line is that Bezos in no way deserves the wealth upon which he pays no tax.

Essentially for me it's about the massively disproportionate and wholly undeserved accumulation of wealth in and of itself.


"Who you are and what you feel comes not just from inside you, but from where you are in the power structure"
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