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Topic Originator: wee eck
Date: Sat 30 Dec 22:19
Last weekend the Guardian sports pages were celebrating football club nicknames with particular regard to unusual Scottish ones like the Hi Hi for the now defunct Third Lanark and the Honest Men, courtesy of Rabbie Burns, for Ayr United. The Pars also got a mention although it said the origin of the nickname was unknown.
Today in the Letters page a correspondent from Cardiff says that a friend of his from Fife told him that the nickname dates from the early days of the club when the players were more renowned for their post-match performances in the club bar rather than on the field of play and became known as the Paralytics. I don`t think that was the conclusion of the recent research on here was it?
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Topic Originator: The Roy Barry Fan Club
Date: Sat 30 Dec 22:36
The Dunfermline Athletic Heritage Trust looked into this last year after a considerable debate on this website. Based on the years of research of Gordon Baird into the early history of the Club, and the views of Club Historian, Duncan Simpson, the Trust came to a view that chimes with that given in the Guardian newspaper but for somewhat different reasons. In short, it was simply an ironic twist, or word play, on the word "athletic" towards "paralytic". The key evidence for this is in the Dundee Evening Telegraph of 11 March 1913, when there was a proposal to shorten Dunfermline Athletic to simply Dunfermline at the forthcoming AGM. This proposal was subsequently rejected.
The Trust reasoning and full quotation from the Dundee Evening Telegraph is given on the Trust website:
https://daht.org.uk/story.php?t=Origins_of_club_nickname&ID=2493
Post Edited (Sat 30 Dec 22:49)
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Topic Originator: Swainy
Date: Sun 31 Dec 00:06
Quote:
The Roy Barry Fan Club, Sat 30 Dec 22:36
The Dunfermline Athletic Heritage Trust looked into this last year after a considerable debate on this website. Based on the years of research of Gordon Baird into the early history of the Club, and the views of Club Historian, Duncan Simpson, the Trust came to a view that chimes with that given in the Guardian newspaper but for somewhat different reasons. In short, it was simply an ironic twist, or word play, on the word "athletic" towards "paralytic". The key evidence for this is in the Dundee Evening Telegraph of 11 March 1913, when there was a proposal to shorten Dunfermline Athletic to simply Dunfermline at the forthcoming AGM. This proposal was subsequently rejected.
The Trust reasoning and full quotation from the Dundee Evening Telegraph is given on the Trust website:
https://daht.org.uk/story.php?t=Origins_of_club_nickname&ID=2493
Has this statement been sent to the Guardian?
D.A are the number one!
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Topic Originator: onandupthepars
Date: Sun 31 Dec 03:45
The Roy Barry Fan Club,
Something has puzzled me since the time we were investigating the origin of the nickname. It might not mean much, but I wondered if you might be able to explain it. It`s part of the article by East Ender in the DET on 11 March 1913, quoted here from the British Newspaper Archive:
It`s the last three sentences that puzzle me, from "Those who cling..."
I`m quoting a good-sized chunk so that the context is clear:
"Probably one of the most interesting of the motions to be brought forward is a proposal to change the name from the Dunfermline Athletic to Dunfermline. I believe it will meet with some opposition, for the old familiar name of Athletic will be difficult to drop like a hot potato. Strangers to East End Park have, I believe, often wondered what meaning there was in the war-cry of a section of the home supporters, “Come away the ‘Pars’.” The term is an abbreviation of the word, “Paralytics,” which at one time an unkind critic had dubbed the Athletics. With Dunfermline as the club’s title, “the Pars” will also have to be suspended. Those who cling to old associations must remember that time brings changes. There may come a period when another senior club will be established in Dunfermline. In the event of there not being a team claiming the name of the town, the officials of a new concern will have nothing to prevent them adopting the title."
I don`t understand it. If there was no team called Dunfermline (something) - nothing would stop a new team calling themselves what? Dunfermline Athletic?
Is he just saying that, even if we were to go defunct, we`d want to go defunct as Dunfermline Athletic, so our name would never be available for a "new concern?"
But, "In the event of there not being a team" called Dunfermline?, there will be nothing to prevent a new team being called Dunfermline? But what`s that got to do with "Athletic"?
I feel as if I might be looking at it too closely, and I can`t quite get it to make sense.
Post Edited (Sun 31 Dec 03:49)
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Topic Originator: DunPar
Date: Sun 31 Dec 06:38
I reckon he was trying to reinforce the case to keep the club as the principle club in town……..he perceived that the principle club would simply carry the towns name and didn’t need the “athletic” tag to go with it…….
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Topic Originator: kelty_par
Date: Sun 31 Dec 09:50
Indeed. He`s saying that an upstart club could call themselves "Dunfermline" and people might assume they were the preeminent club in the town and that "Athletic" would make people think DAFC were the smaller of the two.
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Topic Originator: fcda
Date: Sun 31 Dec 09:58
I think he`s making the case for changing the name to just "Dunfermline", saying that otherwise, another team could form and take that name.
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Topic Originator: bigdonnie
Date: Sun 31 Dec 10:29
we were on the chase repeat last week ruth davidson who is a pars fan was on celibrity chase and paul sinna had only 1 second left to stop them from winning £12,000 for charity he shouted dunfermline athletic to last question lol he was wrong they won money good to hear pars mentioned on a quiz show lol
donald mcneil
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Topic Originator: The Roy Barry Fan Club
Date: Sun 31 Dec 10:45
Onandupthe pars: Good to hear from you.
I take the same view as Dunpar, Kelty Par and FCDA.
I think that this is merely that rarest of things in today`s print journalism --- putting both sides of the argument!
Having noted that if `Athletic` disappeared from the Club name, then so would the nickname of `the Pars` (and explaining why that was the case), the writer goes on to give the counter argument that a newly established club in the town could simply bag the title of `Dunfermline`, to the possible detriment of DAFC.
As regards writing to the Guardian, then Wee Eck (a good friend of the Heritage Trust) should fill his boots and put the readers of the Guardian right.
It merely remains for me to wish all readers and contributors to Dot Net a very good 2024, in which we have an injury free team. Come On Ye Pars.
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Topic Originator: The Roy Barry Fan Club
Date: Sun 31 Dec 13:27
Just to widen the discussion a bit and add interest.
Gordon Baird who has been researching all aspects of the early years of the Club for decades has been in touch.
Gordon writes:
"There had been a previous attempt to drop the name “Athletic” from the club’s title, at the AGM in 1907. It was proposed by the club treasurer, Willie Lawson, but was rejected by the membership, one of whom stated that “they had had misfortunes and glories under the previous name”, and he thought they should leave it as it was. His comment attracted laughter and applause from the members.
In 1910 there was an attempt to start a second senior club in the town but it wasn’t to include the word “Dunfermline”. Remarkably, several of those behind the proposal were, or had been, members of the Athletic; Jimmy Burns, Harry Masterton, Willie Lightfoot and Willie Whyte. Their idea was to lease land in the west of the town, on the farm of Colton of Pittencrieff, and to name their new club “Blackburn Rovers”.
It proved to be short-lived, as the landowner, Colonel Hunt, turned down their approach.
His refusal saved all concerned a good deal of time and effort, as it had already been established that Dunfermline couldn’t support two football clubs, at either senior or junior level."
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Topic Originator: cumbrian par
Date: Sun 31 Dec 13:32
Coincidentally, the letter in The Guardian called us “Dunfermline FC”.
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Topic Originator: onandupthepars
Date: Sun 31 Dec 14:26
Thanks for sorting me out, all.
I love the history TRBFC. It makes for amusing and interesting reading now. ""Blackburn Rovers!"
And it reminds me of my gran who, in those days lived on Golfdrum Street ("Goavdrum"), her bedroom looked out at Colton Farm, across the road. When I spoke to her, (in 1987) she went right back to stuff about 1909, when her dad used to walk to the Dockyard that was just startin` up.
When she talked about him walking to Iverkeithing, she mentioned "the Games Park - whaur the shows came tae."
I said, "Where`s the Games Park?"
She said, "Ken, whaur the Pars fitba`ers train - Mckane Park."
Of course we were all Pars nuts through the Pars 60s heydays, but I got the impression that even when she was wee, the Pars were significant in the town, though unfortunatley, I never asked her if she called them the Pars when she was wee.
I would appeal to anyone who has older relatives, if they like talking about their young lives, and you like to hear them - talk to them, let them talk and reminisce. Ask them about their lives and about the town. It makes more sense than waiting til after they`re gone, and then suddenly getting interested in your family history and where you come from.
Post Edited (Sun 31 Dec 18:50)
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Topic Originator: gwh18
Date: Mon 1 Jan 23:22
Surely at that time Dunfermline could have supported two senior teams or at least least a junior team ? Look at how many teams were in the Falkirk area. Would have liked a wee alternative when the Pars are playing to far away. Rosyth at Pitreavie will no quite cut it. Something at the West End with a wee walk down from the Glen Tavern, would have been just the job.
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Topic Originator: parsfan
Date: Tue 2 Jan 00:06
I`m sure most of you will know this but, for those that might not, there was a Dunfermline FC at one point.
They pre-dated The Pars and we coexisted uneasily for a while but I don`t know how long they lasted. The only things I can remember about what I`ve heard about them are:
- when we drew them in the cup, I think two years running, they refused to play us and we were given byes into the next round. I think even then they went down as 3-0 wins.
- Hibs put about 16 past them once and sometime in the 1980/90/00s their programme couldn`t understand why that wasn`t listed as our heaviest defeat.
Regardless of anything else, I think not wanting to be confused with the previous club would have played a large part in rejecting the change of name.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The universe is ruled by chance and indifference
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Topic Originator: StowicPar
Date: Tue 2 Jan 09:28
I’ve written to the Guardian to suggest there are other explanations for the nickname, particularly the Plymouth Argyle(Rosyth)Supporters suggestion. Not been printed yet, may not be. If anyone wants to contribute bear in mind they don’t like anything over 300 words.
Ian Rickard
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Topic Originator: StowicPar
Date: Tue 2 Jan 09:30
I’ve written to the Guardian to suggest there are other explanations for the nickname, particularly the Plymouth Argyle(Rosyth)Supporters suggestion. Not been printed yet, may not be. If anyone wants to contribute bear in mind they don’t like anything over 300 words.
Ian Rickard
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Topic Originator: fcda
Date: Tue 2 Jan 09:45
I thought the Plymouth connection was fully debunked by the research done last year? The dockyard was built after the first known reference to the nickname.
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Topic Originator: Stanza
Date: Tue 2 Jan 10:19
Quote:
StowicPar, Tue 2 Jan 09:30
I’ve written to the Guardian to suggest there are other explanations for the nickname, particularly the Plymouth Argyle(Rosyth)Supporters suggestion. Not been printed yet, may not be. If anyone wants to contribute bear in mind they don’t like anything over 300 words.
Yes, there were other possible explanations. But given the extensive research on this forum and by the Heritage Trust to debunk the alternatives, I really don`t see what the point is of writing to a national newspaper perpetuating them.
_________________
 Support Dunfermline Athletic Disabled Supporters` Club (DADSC) when you shop online with one of 8000 firms: https://www.easyfundraising.org.uk/causes/dadsc[
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Topic Originator: LochgellyAlbert
Date: Tue 2 Jan 10:53
Quote:
gwh18, Mon 1 Jan 23:22
Surely at that time Dunfermline could have supported two senior teams or at least least a junior team ? Look at how many teams were in the Falkirk area. Would have liked a wee alternative when the Pars are playing to far away. Rosyth at Pitreavie will no quite cut it. Something at the West End with a wee walk down from the Glen Tavern, would have been just the job.
Dunfermline Jubilee played in the Junior League for years, wound up some time ago, maybe at the time the supporters club was flattened?
Post Edited (Tue 02 Jan 10:55)
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Topic Originator: StowicPar
Date: Tue 2 Jan 10:55
Fair point.
However the aim for both myself and the first letter-writer was to provide information to the original article writers who indicated that nobody knew how the nickname was derived.
Secondly I am not sure from reading the Heritage Trust research
that the idea has been “debunked” unless you have read something I haven’t. Their preference was on the balance of probabilities.I accept that the idea is unlikely for chronological reasons.
Lastly,I am sure that the Guardian has no interest in the subject whatsoever but I felt better after saying my piece.I have personal reasons for liking the Plymouth idea!
Ian Rickard
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Topic Originator: Stanza
Date: Tue 2 Jan 11:36
OK, I agree that "debunked" was perhaps too strong, although I do think the dockyard connection is far and away the least likely origin, as the use of "Pars" as a nickname pre-dates the dockyard
The "balance of probabilities" is appropriate, and unless some new evidence emerges I think the "paralytic" origin is the most likely.
_________________
Support Dunfermline Athletic Disabled Supporters` Club (DADSC) when you shop online with one of 8000 firms: https://www.easyfundraising.org.uk/causes/dadsc[
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Topic Originator: DBP
Date: Tue 2 Jan 13:39
Quote:
fcda, Tue 2 Jan 09:45
I thought the Plymouth connection was fully debunked by the research done last year? The dockyard was built after the first known reference to the nickname.
It was, put to bed as not being the origin of the nickname after extensive research - so stowic barking up the wrong tree, and worse perpetuating incorrect information and muddying the water unnecessarily
Post Edited (Tue 02 Jan 13:40)
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Topic Originator: onandupthepars
Date: Wed 3 Jan 11:18
DBP,
It bugs me as well, the perpetuation of claims for which there is nil evidence.
We spent a fair bit of time and effort on the subject, combing the newspapers at the British Newspaper Archive. And the only evidence that was found supports the "Paralytics" origin.
I was thinking about it this morning and here`s something else that has occurred to me.
Not only does East Ender tell us our nickname comes from "Paralytics", it`s the way he tells us, as a statement of fact:
`The term [`Pars`] is an abbreviation of the word, "Paralytics"`(1)
Bear in mind he is a professional journalist, writing for a newspaper. As such, hadn`t he better have his facts straight, or if he`s unsure, hedge his claims so as not to be open to counterclaim or libel?
There are two facts in that statement - that it comes from "Paralytics", and that was shortened to "Pars."
Does he write, "It is thought to have come from..." or "Some speculate that it comes from..." ? No, he is crystal clear. He couldn`t have made it clearer. It`s a beautiful crisp piece of writing, and it should be like a rubber stamp that we read every time the subject comes up in any newspaper, TV show, video, football forum.
When he wrote it, if there had been other candidates for the origin, would he not have said so? I put it that there were none then, and that it is only through time and baseless speculation that there are any now.
I challenge anyone to provide evidence for any of the other claims. Evidence, not speculation.
Ref:
(1) East Ender, Dundee Evening Telegraph 11 March 1913
Post Edited (Wed 03 Jan 11:31)
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