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Topic Originator: 87Par
Date: Thu 29 Feb 16:48
They are on COWS should anyone wish to take a look. I`m not the best with that sort of thing.
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Topic Originator: Alter Ego
Date: Thu 29 Feb 17:47
Well that is concerning tbh.
Mon the Pars!
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Topic Originator: Rusty Shackleford
Date: Thu 29 Feb 17:48
£1.04m loss for the season.
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Topic Originator: da_no_1
Date: Thu 29 Feb 17:51
Have to say thats a staggering amount money to lose.
"Some days will stay a 1000 years, some pass like the flash of a spark"
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Topic Originator: Bandy
Date: Thu 29 Feb 17:53
Does FFP apply?
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Topic Originator: GG Riva
Date: Thu 29 Feb 17:56
David Cook said as much at the last supporters meeting. Disappointing doesn`t begin to cover it all the same. In our previous season in League 1, when we were promoted in AJ`s first season as manager, we posted a modest profit of £15/16k, if memory serves. I`m sure our outgoings would have been considerably greater last season, but that`s still a huge loss for a club of our size. I wonder if the sell on money for Kevin Nisbet is included in these figures? And the money from the stadium naming rights?
Not your average Sunday League player.
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Topic Originator: buffy
Date: Thu 29 Feb 17:57
I’m needing to forego the free cakes and start cherging!
Tis a lot of money though and it is concerning. Losing folk re the half time paper tickets probably didn’t help either. (I’ve not seen the QR codes on the tables in legends for a while) - that’s probably just a little thing in the grand scheme of finance.
”Buffy’s Buns are the finest in Fife”, J. Spence 2019”
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Topic Originator: P
Date: Thu 29 Feb 18:04
“Our budget for the year was based, conservatively, on ending the season in a play-off position and securing promotion by way of those additional matches. Ending the season as league champions meant, of course, that we missed out on those additional revenues. Of course, we were delighted to forego those.”
Wow - I would have thought playoffs would be a ‘target’ but budget based on normal season
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Topic Originator: GG Riva
Date: Thu 29 Feb 18:17
Quote:
P, Thu 29 Feb 18:04
“Our budget for the year was based, conservatively, on ending the season in a play-off position and securing promotion by way of those additional matches. Ending the season as league champions meant, of course, that we missed out on those additional revenues. Of course, we were delighted to forego those.”
Wow - I would have thought playoffs would be a ‘target’ but budget based on normal season
I wouldn`t have thought 2 home play-off games would have made a huge dent in those figures....
Not your average Sunday League player.
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Topic Originator: Rusty Shackleford
Date: Thu 29 Feb 18:29
Multiple factors adding together in this. Cost of living/inflation, academy, reduced away supports, prize money etc.
Suffice to say we absolutely have to stay up and that there`s no magic money pot if we do go down.
Who`d run a football club eh?
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Topic Originator: KirklistonPar
Date: Thu 29 Feb 18:39
I don’t suppose medical bills are cheap and we’ve had a few seasons worth of injuries this campaign. Hopefully this is a loss we can cope with.
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Topic Originator: Rusty Shackleford
Date: Thu 29 Feb 18:45
Quote:
KirklistonPar, Thu 29 Feb 18:39
I don’t suppose medical bills are cheap and we’ve had a few seasons worth of injuries this campaign. Hopefully this is a loss we can cope with.
Worth saying this won`t be realised till next year`s accounts. I`ve heard tens of thousands on medical stuff which feels about right.
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Topic Originator: cfad
Date: Thu 29 Feb 19:06
This is a worry, and a position that we need to turn around if we want to avoid returning to the dark days of about 10 years ago. The comment ‘we still have a lot of work to do to reduce costs and increase revenues further to achieve a break even position and bring about long term sustainability’ sums it up. We 100% must live within our means, the mistake of not doing this in the recent past almost made the club go under.
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Topic Originator: kelty_par
Date: Thu 29 Feb 19:08
That stuff about the play offs is wild. 2 home games might have generated an extra what, say 10,000 punters through the the gates. But would we have had 9,000 v Falkirk and then nearly 6,000 against Queen of the South if we weren’t top and then champions? We`d have had to pay travel to the away games, and we`d have picked up between 20 and 50 grand less in prize money (2nd to 4th place). Lots more questions than answers in amongst that.
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Topic Originator: da_no_1
Date: Thu 29 Feb 19:10
Surely the prize money for winning the league has to be better than money to be earned in any play offs. What a crock of sh1t
"Some days will stay a 1000 years, some pass like the flash of a spark"
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Topic Originator: 87Par
Date: Thu 29 Feb 19:10
Why the playoffs in League 1 was the projection is beyond me.
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Topic Originator: AdamAntsParsStripe
Date: Thu 29 Feb 19:14
Sobering reading but getting the academy up and running must be bloody expensive in itself.
I’m sure it’s part of the long term planning the board would have expected a big hit this season regardless of position.
Zwei Pints Bier und ein Päckchen Chips bitte
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Topic Originator: cammypar 1995
Date: Thu 29 Feb 19:19
Something doesn`t add up. Winning the league paid less than play offs. Is that based on us winning the playoffs? Just seems a very odd statement.
c'mon the pars
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Topic Originator: Andrew283
Date: Thu 29 Feb 19:41
Aren`t the playoff tickets distributed to the league? After expenses I think
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Topic Originator: red-star-par
Date: Thu 29 Feb 20:01
I`ve got to say I`ve been backing the new board to the hilt on here, as I was under the impression they were running the club in a prudent manner. That might be misplaced.
I was already of the opinion they have been running the playing side on a shoestring budget. Last season, we had a small squad and not a massive amount of senior pros. I felt we got away with that because everyone kept injury free. The crowds didn`t seem bad, and we`re boosted by some fairly large attendances. From what I can see online, our average attendance actually increased, from 3,414 in the Championship in 2021/22 to 4,776 in League One last season. Prize money of £198k from the SPFL last season, can`t really see why they would budget for being in the play offs and getting extra games, a strange way to plan a budget.
This season I didn`t consider that there had been a massive investment in the paying side, still not many senior pros, and still a relatively small first team squad. While I was disappointed they didn`t strengthen much in the recent transfer window, I understood that this might have been because the budget had already gone, and the money wasn`t available to pay more wages, on top of wages to injured players that still has to be paid.
I`d be interested to see where the losses have been made, 86 staff? who is getting paid what? How much has been invested in the Academy? I would think it may be a better position this year, with Nisbet money to be added.
I think I need to investigate further, question more. We slept-walked into administration previous by being too trusting of the Masterson regime, we need to be on our guard here too.
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Topic Originator: RMGpar
Date: Thu 29 Feb 20:07
There was also be a good 150k Of paid positions within the club that were previously volunteered
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Topic Originator: TAFKA_Super_Petrie
Date: Thu 29 Feb 20:17
Possibly high earners from the car crash of a season under Grant / Hughes not having relegation clauses in their contracts in terms of wage cuts?
---------------------------------------------------------------
"People always talk about Ronaldinho and magic, but I didn't see him today. I saw Henrik Larsson; that's where the magic was."
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Topic Originator: EastEndTales
Date: Thu 29 Feb 20:19
Hard to make a proper opinion without seeing the P&L but it`s not good reading.
The play off comment is bizarre, should have been cut completely from the comments.
Ep.17 of East End Tales is out now with Andrius Skerla
https://www.buzzsprout.com/1972630/15082607
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Topic Originator: eastendalloapar
Date: Thu 29 Feb 20:29
How much is the training ground costing?
matt forsyth
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Topic Originator: Rusty Shackleford
Date: Thu 29 Feb 20:34
Quote:
EastEndTales, Thu 29 Feb 20:19
Hard to make a proper opinion without seeing the P&L but it`s not good reading.
The play off comment is bizarre, should have been cut completely from the comments.
The play off comment is just daft. It`s deckchair off the Titanic levels compared to a one million loss.
I still think a provincial sports team must be one of the toughest businesses to run. Demanding customer base, variable income, subject to weather, TV changes, prize money, injuries etc. It wrecks my head thinking about it. I try to avoid saying stuff like this because it`s difficult to do so without sounding like an arrogant twerp but I help run a business that has similar turnover to the Pars (maybe even more, I don`t know the turnover from last season) and it`s a living, perpetual feckin stress keeping everything going. But give me it any day of the week over a football club.
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Topic Originator: Alter Ego
Date: Thu 29 Feb 20:48
The academy cost is draining the club and this is still going ahead? We don’t need an academy base at the moment.
Nesbit money? Stadium rights money? Over a 1 million pound loss is mental for a club our size tbh…
Mon the Pars!
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Topic Originator: JamesAndrew74
Date: Thu 29 Feb 20:54
Quote:
Alter Ego, Thu 29 Feb 20:48
The academy cost is draining the club and this is still going ahead? We don’t need an academy base at the moment.
Nesbit money? Stadium rights money? Over a 1 million pound loss is mental for a club our size tbh…
The academy costs are likely this years account so that won’t be accurate. The costs are being met just now for the works.
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Topic Originator: Rigger Al
Date: Thu 29 Feb 20:57
Worrying ,kind of answers why we maybe can`t pay the money for players we were maybe after
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Topic Originator: Westies squint kicks
Date: Thu 29 Feb 20:57
Reduced away attendance but an average of 4775 which is an outstanding number and surely way in excess of any budgeted for by the club.
A small profit was made in 15/16 season also in League One with an average of 3496.
Concerning.
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Topic Originator: veteraneastender
Date: Thu 29 Feb 21:00
"The play off comment is just daft."
Especially as there is no guarantee of winning promotion going that route, as Falkirk discovered - going up as champions had to be the only ambition.
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Topic Originator: Alter Ego
Date: Thu 29 Feb 21:02
No excuses that is a massive loss! The Academy will not bring in any revenue and the club are still spending £££ untill it’s finished.
Where has the money been spent? We have a small squad so the Nesbit sale,stadium name sale and other companies that have put money in??
The club is not in a good way financially at all tbh!
Mon the Pars!
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Topic Originator: Rusty Shackleford
Date: Thu 29 Feb 21:06
Quote:
Westies squint kicks, Thu 29 Feb 20:57
Reduced away attendance but an average of 4775 which is an outstanding number and surely way in excess of any budgeted for by the club.
A small profit was made in 15/16 season also in League One with an average of 3496.
Concerning.
It is outstanding in the grand scheme of things but how many of those were the mega-cheap kids and SNW tickets?
The reality is we`ve a massive stadium to service and 80+ staff, all at the same time trying to build and develop an academy.
Make no mistake we have to stay up and then have to develop and sell players.
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Topic Originator: nick_dafc1
Date: Thu 29 Feb 21:16
Handing out 3 year deal to Mehmet after this...
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Topic Originator: Alter Ego
Date: Thu 29 Feb 21:26
700k in the bank with debtors at 900k to be paid back? Small squad, training facilities not much money at Pitreavie… where has the incoming money gone from Nesbit etc? Remember the club got a grant for their new Astro pitch at the academy 🤷🤷
Mon the Pars!
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Topic Originator: weemike
Date: Thu 29 Feb 21:32
Quote:
Alter Ego, Thu 29 Feb 21:26
700k in the bank with debtors at 900k to be paid back? Small squad, training facilities not much money at Pitreavie… where has the incoming money gone from Nesbit etc? Remember the club got a grant for their new Astro pitch at the academy 🤷🤷
Millwall might not have paid hibs upfront for Nisbet
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Topic Originator: Hay Fever
Date: Thu 29 Feb 21:34
Will the Nisbit money and the Stadium naming income not be in next years accounts?
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Topic Originator: DAFC23
Date: Thu 29 Feb 21:36
Strange if the loss was so high that we could afford to turn down a six figure bid for Edwards in the last window , hope the board know what they are doing , would assume relegation this season would be an absolute financial disaster.
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Topic Originator: da_no_1
Date: Thu 29 Feb 21:54
Quote:
nick_dafc1, Thu 29 Feb 21:16
Handing out 3 year deal to Mehmet after this...
Let`s leave individual players out of this
"Some days will stay a 1000 years, some pass like the flash of a spark"
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Topic Originator: LochgellyAlbert
Date: Thu 29 Feb 22:06
Termination payments to Grant and Hughes?
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Topic Originator: Rigger Al
Date: Thu 29 Feb 22:15
Quote:
nick_dafc1, Thu 29 Feb 21:16
Handing out 3 year deal to Mehmet after this...
What a stupid comment ,picking out an individual ,
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Topic Originator: Rigger Al
Date: Thu 29 Feb 22:16
Quote:
nick_dafc1, Thu 29 Feb 21:16
Handing out 3 year deal to Mehmet after this...
What a stupid comment ,picking out an individual ,
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Topic Originator: DA-go Par Adonis
Date: Thu 29 Feb 22:37
Losing £1m per season clearly isn`t a sustainable long-term business plan.
It is however, quite amusing seeing the people who have decided that they`re going to be really angry about this - and then picking out random numbers that they don`t fully understand to justify their anger.
Similarly, the Nisbet fee and the academy grant have nothing to do with accounts ending in May 2023.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I love it when we go sell Kevin Nisbet,
He's gonna pay for everyone this season.
Post Edited (Thu 29 Feb 22:40)
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Topic Originator: nick_dafc1
Date: Thu 29 Feb 22:59
Quote:
Rigger Al, Thu 29 Feb 22:16
Quote:
nick_dafc1, Thu 29 Feb 21:16
Handing out 3 year deal to Mehmet after this...
What a stupid comment ,picking out an individual ,
It`s not picking out Mehmet though is it? If I was him I`d be accepting that deal as well.
Terrible financial decision though. He`s hardly sellable or big asset.
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Topic Originator: DA-go Par Adonis
Date: Thu 29 Feb 23:04
It`s hardly a terrible financial decision.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I love it when we go sell Kevin Nisbet,
He's gonna pay for everyone this season.
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Topic Originator: Parnott
Date: Thu 29 Feb 23:10
How many fans are still paying the monthly £20 lifeline fee? I`m sure 1000 people were mentioned but that might have been a few years ago now.
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Topic Originator: Socks
Date: Thu 29 Feb 23:29
That`s certainly a concerning set of accounts. Bad enough in its self but the accompanying `explanation` just opens the club up to ridicule. Do they really expect people to just accept that? Maybe someone felt they had to try to give a justification, but what they`ve written feels like an insult to me.
Small numbers of away fans? Yes, but it`s the total income from the game rather than the number of away fans that counts. With a higher average attendance than the relegation year (which included some closed doors and restricted attendances), and gate prices the same, it`s hard to see how income from matches could have dropped much, if at all.
It`s true that the prize money from the SPFL was less, but the estimate I saw was about £150k last year. 9th in the league above (where we finished in 2022) gets 1.5x the payment we got for last year, so a difference of about £75k, assuming that estimate is close to reality. Significant, but not a huge contributor to a loss of £1M.
The stuff about missing out on revenue from play-offs is obviously a complete nonsense as it`s the total income from matches over the season that counts. Attendances were really good last year and they can`t possibly have budgeted for a total attendance that was higher than what we actually got. Budgeting by assuming a play-off finish is reasonable, but if we`d finished there our total income from games would almost certainly have been lower.
It`s hard not to keep coming back to the question - where has the money been spent? Obviously we don`t know what anyone gets paid, but last season`s squad was not one you`d look at and worry about what it was costing. It would be interesting to know how much is being spent on non-football things - it seems likely that the cost here has increased a lot. But I still can`t see how it can be quite as disasterous as it was.
It`s true that income can be variable, but I`d argue that last season was about as stable as it could possibly have been, in terms of avoiding any significant losses against what was budgeted for. The league prize money was the best it could have been, attendances were as good as they could have been. We even had the rarest of bonuses of getting through a round of the Scottish Cup.
As fans, we should all be watching this carefully. It probably isn`t critical yet, but from 2000-2010 we went through a decade of big losses most years which were shrugged off by the board of the time, often with similarly unconvincing explanations as this one. It`s not wrong to pull that statement apart, as an attempt to hold the board to account. We should all have an interest in doing this.
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Topic Originator: 87Par
Date: Thu 29 Feb 23:40
The Nizzy money got swept under the carpet as club running costs.
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Topic Originator: jake89
Date: Fri 1 Mar 06:57
Need to remember these are for LAST season but also the club need to be mindful of making Masterton era assumptions in their accounts.
I don`t see the figures as overly concerning and would expect similar this season. However, those figures can`t go on and I`d be interested in the detail of where the money is going. Is it the stadium running costs and repairs? Is it player budget? Is it the training ground?
We seem to have picked up a lot of new commercial sponsors so there should be a lot of additional revenue from that.
I forget the name of the new finance director (it was Stephen Taylor previously I think) but it would be good to get some details on the finances (where appropriate)
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Topic Originator: Berkey
Date: Fri 1 Mar 07:17
The worry is how this is improved this season in the championship?
The nisbet money will show this season but we paid fee’s for KRH and otoo and their wages won’t be cheap.
Really shows the importance of getting it spot on in terms of the limited number of senior pro’s we have on the books as they is simply no money if they get injured or are not able to perform to the standard expected.
Can’t see how we can move away from this over reliance on other teams young loans? Or our own when the academy up and running. Feels like we simply can’t compete at the top of this league anymore.
Back to being drenched in my own negativity….
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Topic Originator: jake89
Date: Fri 1 Mar 07:22
That`s why the training facility is of interest. Thankfully this received government funding but I imagine the cost of the lease and building costs will have been substantial.
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Topic Originator: GG Riva
Date: Fri 1 Mar 07:24
Bottom line for me is that I want to be able to continue to support the team I have followed since 1963. The memory of 2013 is still vivid - I remember feeling sick to the bottom of my stomach at Starks Park, as we watched what was expected to be the Pars last ever game and I don`t want to experience that horrible feeling ever again.
I believe our investors are not short of a £ or two, but they didn`t become wealthy by throwing away good money year after year, so I`m sure they won`t be happy to have lost over £1m last season. If we were to post a similar loss for this season, they may decide they`ve had enough and walk away and then what?
Not your average Sunday League player.
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Topic Originator: weemike
Date: Fri 1 Mar 08:06
Most clubs will be run at a deficit, ours was exaggerated by the season in league one. Alot of our squad will be on 50k to 100k a year.
This is alarming but I remain upbeat about our future.
It answers alot of questions about why we won`t break the bank for signings as we are at the top end of our budget already.
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Topic Originator: EastEndTales
Date: Fri 1 Mar 08:19
The most telling thing is the lack of P&L being published. They clearly don`t want anyone to see the breakdown of where the loss actually comes from.
Ep.17 of East End Tales is out now with Andrius Skerla
https://www.buzzsprout.com/1972630/15082607
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Topic Originator: The Boss
Date: Fri 1 Mar 08:32
Where is the money being spent? That is the question we all should be asking.
Worrying stuff really. I personally don’t trust them.
I like black and white (dreaming of black and white)
You like black and white
Run run away
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Topic Originator: wee eck
Date: Fri 1 Mar 08:33
There is no legal requirement for a private company to publish a profit and loss account. It`s completely wrong to read anything sinister into its absence.
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Topic Originator: doctordandruff
Date: Fri 1 Mar 08:55
So this amazing life changing sale to the German`s has turned a profitable Championship fan run club, into a privately owned massively in debt League One club. Awesome.
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Topic Originator: Dave_1885
Date: Fri 1 Mar 08:57
Quote:
GG Riva, Fri 1 Mar 07:24
Bottom line for me is that I want to be able to continue to support the team I have followed since 1963. The memory of 2013 is still vivid - I remember feeling sick to the bottom of my stomach at Starks Park, as we watched what was expected to be the Pars last ever game and I don`t want to experience that horrible feeling ever again.
I believe our investors are not short of a £ or two, but they didn`t become wealthy by throwing away good money year after year, so I`m sure they won`t be happy to have lost over £1m last season. If we were to post a similar loss for this season, they may decide they`ve had enough and walk away and then what?
Was that the game where the Rovers jimmied the numbers to claim we hadn’t sold out, when we had, so they didn’t need to give us the cash from the away end? 😂
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Topic Originator: EastEndTales
Date: Fri 1 Mar 09:00
Quote:
Dave_1885, Fri 1 Mar 08:57
Quote:
GG Riva, Fri 1 Mar 07:24
Bottom line for me is that I want to be able to continue to support the team I have followed since 1963. The memory of 2013 is still vivid - I remember feeling sick to the bottom of my stomach at Starks Park, as we watched what was expected to be the Pars last ever game and I don`t want to experience that horrible feeling ever again.
I believe our investors are not short of a £ or two, but they didn`t become wealthy by throwing away good money year after year, so I`m sure they won`t be happy to have lost over £1m last season. If we were to post a similar loss for this season, they may decide they`ve had enough and walk away and then what?
Was that the game where the Rovers jimmied the numbers to claim we hadn’t sold out, when we had, so they didn’t need to give us the cash from the away end? 😂
The very same.
Anything over 2000 fans was going to be split. A picture of the crowd shows it being like 95% full (stands hold what, 3400?) And they completely bumped us. Wee team till the end.
What was worse was the Dumbarton game a few weeks later. That was just ...horrible.
Ep.17 of East End Tales is out now with Andrius Skerla
https://www.buzzsprout.com/1972630/15082607
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Topic Originator: veteraneastender
Date: Fri 1 Mar 09:02
Quote:
wee eck, Fri 1 Mar 08:33
There is no legal requirement for a private company to publish a profit and loss account. It`s completely wrong to read anything sinister into its absence.
They’re not so reticent when it comes to accepting funds from fans.
It would be interesting to hear Steaua’s view, for example, considering how much she donates through her great efforts.
On another tack, the failure to progress beyond square one in the Scottish Cup does not help the income stream - whereas it has been a nice little earner for other lower tier clubs.
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Topic Originator: EastEndTales
Date: Fri 1 Mar 09:12
Quote:
veteraneastender, Fri 1 Mar 09:02
Quote:
wee eck, Fri 1 Mar 08:33
There is no legal requirement for a private company to publish a profit and loss account. It`s completely wrong to read anything sinister into its absence.
They’re not so reticent when it comes to accepting funds from fans.
It would be interesting to hear Steaua’s view, for example, considering how much she donates through her great efforts.
On another tack, the failure to progress beyond square one in the Scottish Cup does not help the income stream - whereas it has been a nice little earner for other lower tier clubs.
On one hand I understand they don`t want to publicly make those numbers available as rival clubs will definitely pick through them. You don`t want to give your competition more info than necessary. But there`s a balance because of your fan base.
Bottom line is that the loss is significant, unsustainable and gives the appearance of mismanagement.
Losses can be acceptable when you`re scaling up a company. I`ve been involved with firms doing just that. However, we`re not a bloody start up. We`re a lower tier Scottish team with a limited fanbase who have made poor decisions for years now. This academy feels like a rope around our neck.
Ep.17 of East End Tales is out now with Andrius Skerla
https://www.buzzsprout.com/1972630/15082607
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Topic Originator: red-star-par
Date: Fri 1 Mar 09:16
Quote:
wee eck, Fri 1 Mar 08:33
There is no legal requirement for a private company to publish a profit and loss account. It`s completely wrong to read anything sinister into its absence.
In this club ethos of fair play however, I would expect openness, honesty and transparency. We have a right to know where the money is going.
Providing a Profit and Loss breakdown down would at least stop any speculation around that. Is this largely made up of a payment for the construction costs of the new academy which would be a one off amount and therefore not something that is reoccurring every year, or are 6 figure salary`s being paid out to people who don`t need that every year. We need to know what they are doing with our club.
We stuck our heads in the sand before, and any questioning was immediately shouted down, and see where that got us
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Topic Originator: par-91
Date: Fri 1 Mar 09:47
Quote:
wee eck, Fri 1 Mar 08:33
There is no legal requirement for a private company to publish a profit and loss account. It`s completely wrong to read anything sinister into its absence.
Not strictly true. The only reason the club don’t have to, is because they’ve taken advantage of small company exemptions. Any company that doesn’t meet the criteria for being ‘small’ or ‘micro’ does have to publish their profit
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Topic Originator: wee eck
Date: Fri 1 Mar 09:58
Fair point, par-91, but in all my years involved in the financial services business I never came across a `small` private company which didn`t take advantage of the exemptions available and voluntarily put details of its profit and loss account on the public record. Some of you guys need to distinguish between your emotional attachment to the club and commercial reality.
Not so long ago the board were getting hammered on here for (allegedly) not supporting the manager financially in the transfer window. Now they`re getting panned for supporting the club financially when we suffered relegation to League 1.
Post Edited (Fri 01 Mar 10:04)
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Topic Originator: LochgellyAlbert
Date: Fri 1 Mar 11:38
Anyone that thinks that they can make money out of a football club in Scotland needs their head examined!🤔🤣🤣🤣
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Topic Originator: Socks
Date: Fri 1 Mar 12:02
"I don`t see the figures as overly concerning and would expect similar this season."
Sorry, what? That seems an incredible thing to say. How can anyone who cares about their football club not be concerned when a huge loss like this is reported? How bad would it need to be before it concerned you?
"Now they`re getting panned for supporting the club financially when we suffered relegation to League 1."
I don`t think that`s true. What`s your view on the reported loss? Are you concerned by it?
On another look through what was published, it looks like the loss is mainly covered by a combination of cash held (down by about £600k from the previous year) and an increase in `other creditors` (up by about £330k, shown in the detail of the current liabilities). Can anyone with a better knowledge of accounts say if that`s a reasonable analysis?
For me, the wholly unconvincing explanation is almost as big a concern as the numbers themselves. They would have been better just saying nothing, rather than publishing that. For me, it achieves nothing other than eroding some of the trust that might previously have existed.
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Topic Originator: Malcolm Canmore
Date: Fri 1 Mar 12:10
League One 1st 0.50% £149,500
2nd 0.43% £128,570
3rd 0.35% £104,650
4th 0.34% £101,660
5th 0.33% £98,670
6th 0.32% £95,680
7th 0.31% £92,690
8th 0.30% £89,700
9th 0.29% £86,710
10th 0.28% £83,720
Total 3.45% £1,031,550
Found this on Twitter. If correct, the difference between 1st and 2nd is £21k. Well short of two home playoff matches with season tickets not counting and Legends and Purvis Suite busy.
My dog eats meat
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Topic Originator: buffy
Date: Fri 1 Mar 12:26
I think the same Socks - better to say nothing. They’ve left themselves wide open. Cue the press picking up all kinds of stories even from the forums alone.
”Buffy’s Buns are the finest in Fife”, J. Spence 2019”
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Topic Originator: Dave_1885
Date: Fri 1 Mar 12:47
Surely these result’s were to be expected? 🤔 we got relegated whilst also sacking two managers and most likely had a high wage bill. Id be more concerned if we had a huge loss after this season with higher attendances, more prize money, money from Nisbet again and a similar wage bill.
Not asking for a profit and loss account as has been said it is a private company, but it would be good to see the breakdown of season ticket sales and income from them - as people know we sell 3k STs but we have no idea of the financial breakdown of that. Could be anywhere between £300k and £1.5m 🤷🏻♂️
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Topic Originator: jake89
Date: Fri 1 Mar 12:59
Socks, my reasoning is we got relegated and sustaining a full time team in a league of part time teams with limited supports would clearly result in a significant loss. Maybe I should have said "accepting of the loss" instead? I imagine the pay offs of two charlatans will be part of our costs last season and maybe this season too?
The reason for expecting the same this season is we`re investing a significant sum on the training academy and can`t imagine our income has gone up that much in the Championship.
As others have said, Scottish football isn`t a place to make money. My understanding is our big income generator is to come from the training facility/academy.
I agree with others on it being helpful to get some explanation from the board but also appreciate that it may not be appropriate to share certain details in public.
I`m fully behind bringing in paid roles to improve the running of the club but this needs to be balanced against the benefits (e.g. does a full time commercial director generate greater income than a volunteer?). I have skills I could lend to the club and know other fans do too. However, I accept the club needs to be mindful of what they can/can`t support (e.g. they probably wouldn`t want to put me in charge of their social media as it would be filled with expletives!!!).
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Topic Originator: EastEndTales
Date: Fri 1 Mar 13:01
Why would Grant`s sacking be part of the following seasons accounts? He had a 1 year contract.
I don`t know what length of contract Hughes had, but it`d only be relevant if it was longer than thr end of that season.
Ep.17 of East End Tales is out now with Andrius Skerla
https://www.buzzsprout.com/1972630/15082607
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Topic Originator: kelty_par
Date: Fri 1 Mar 13:01
"Well short of two home playoff matches with season tickets not counting and Legends and Purvis Suite busy."
Yes, but...
... might not be two games (we lost at the semi final stage when we came down, Falkirk finished second and lost in the semi final last season)
... might not have been 2nd (if target was play offs that could have been 4th which is nearer to 50k difference)
... we`d need policing and stewarding costs for the home game(s)
... we`d need to pay for travel and possibly accommodation costs for the away game(s)
... we likely wouldn`t have had crowds as big as we did have, particularly for the Falkirk midweek game and Queen of the South trophy lift game
... we wouldn`t be able to sell "champions" merch and memorabilia, there would be fewer programmes sold for the last game, etc.
There`s no way on Earth finishing 2nd, 3rd or 4th in League One would be significantly better financially than finishing 1st. If there would be any financial uplift, we`re talking in the single thousands or pounds, I`d suggest.
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Topic Originator: Playup_Pompey
Date: Fri 1 Mar 13:28
"That`s certainly a concerning set of accounts. Bad enough in its self but the accompanying `explanation` just opens the club up to ridicule. Do they really expect people to just accept that? Maybe someone felt they had to try to give a justification, but what they`ve written feels like an insult to me.
Small numbers of away fans? Yes, but it`s the total income from the game rather than the number of away fans that counts. With a higher average attendance than the relegation year (which included some closed doors and restricted attendances), and gate prices the same, it`s hard to see how income from matches could have dropped much, if at all.
It`s true that the prize money from the SPFL was less, but the estimate I saw was about £150k last year. 9th in the league above (where we finished in 2022) gets 1.5x the payment we got for last year, so a difference of about £75k, assuming that estimate is close to reality. Significant, but not a huge contributor to a loss of £1M.
The stuff about missing out on revenue from play-offs is obviously a complete nonsense as it`s the total income from matches over the season that counts. Attendances were really good last year and they can`t possibly have budgeted for a total attendance that was higher than what we actually got. Budgeting by assuming a play-off finish is reasonable, but if we`d finished there our total income from games would almost certainly have been lower.
It`s hard not to keep coming back to the question - where has the money been spent? Obviously we don`t know what anyone gets paid, but last season`s squad was not one you`d look at and worry about what it was costing. It would be interesting to know how much is being spent on non-football things - it seems likely that the cost here has increased a lot. But I still can`t see how it can be quite as disasterous as it was.
It`s true that income can be variable, but I`d argue that last season was about as stable as it could possibly have been, in terms of avoiding any significant losses against what was budgeted for. The league prize money was the best it could have been, attendances were as good as they could have been. We even had the rarest of bonuses of getting through a round of the Scottish Cup.
As fans, we should all be watching this carefully. It probably isn`t critical yet, but from 2000-2010 we went through a decade of big losses most years which were shrugged off by the board of the time, often with similarly unconvincing explanations as this one. It`s not wrong to pull that statement apart, as an attempt to hold the board to account. We should all have an interest in doing this."
exactly this and this kind of thing is madness. Look at the league now... project for next season.
We may lose united going up (2000 away fans 3000 if its scheduled for a critical game) and we will get Livi coming down. 200 to 300 fans.
May lose arbroath down 200- 300 fans, but Falkirk coming up 2000-3000 (10000 attendance like 7
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Topic Originator: Paralex
Date: Fri 1 Mar 13:44
Some clubs, I don`t know how many, have wealthy financial backers, for whom a couple of million may be pocket money, and they "invest" some of that in their team. We never seem to have had such supporters in our part of West Fife. It might tempt me to ask those who come out with the well worn phrases when we hit a bare patch, (like "Sack the manager", and "Just get a couple of new faces in", ) do you have a couple of million handy to finance us buying our way out of trouble. If not save your breath because we don`t have the money to do it.
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Topic Originator: LochgellyAlbert
Date: Fri 1 Mar 13:45
Floodlights and undersoil heating upgrades?
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Topic Originator: DA-go Par Adonis
Date: Fri 1 Mar 14:11
Quote:
Paralex, Fri 1 Mar 13:44
Some clubs, I don`t know how many, have wealthy financial backers, for whom a couple of million may be pocket money, and they "invest" some of that in their team. We never seem to have had such supporters in our part of West Fife. It might tempt me to ask those who come out with the well worn phrases when we hit a bare patch, (like "Sack the manager", and "Just get a couple of new faces in", ) do you have a couple of million handy to finance us buying our way out of trouble. If not save your breath because we don`t have the money to do it.
What would you call our owners? They seem to building a training centre/academy whilst bridging a trading loss of £1m with their own money - in the form of the convertible loan stock?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I love it when we go sell Kevin Nisbet,
He's gonna pay for everyone this season.
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Topic Originator: Raymie the Legend
Date: Fri 1 Mar 14:15
If these results and the explanations don’t worry you, then you have a problem
Yes, our owners will fund the losses but, why are we losing so much and for how long will our owners put up with these ?
It`s bloody tough being a legend
Ron Atkinson - 1983
Post Edited (Fri 01 Mar 14:17)
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Topic Originator: LochgellyAlbert
Date: Fri 1 Mar 14:30
Dundee Utd posted a £2.8 million loss!
Even after a parachute payment?🤔
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Topic Originator: NW 1966
Date: Fri 1 Mar 15:16
The accounts aren`t good at all, a 7 figure loss ffs.
This season another 6 figure loss to deal with. Anyone not alarmed or at least concerned by this maybe should have a rethink. Back in 2012 we were told everything was under control and it absolutely wasn`t. Thank god for some fans getting it out there, `problem, wot problem guv?`, then WHAM!
I never thought complacency would reset itself so quickly among our support. I don`t think the current Board are doing anything underhand, I believe the spirit in which they arrived here was honourable enough, but let`s not just sit and pretend everything is under control. I find the club statement both ambiguous and confusing, but maybe my ability to interpret information is rubbish.
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Topic Originator: jake89
Date: Fri 1 Mar 15:20
Out of interest, did any first division (or championship) club report a profit for the 22/23 season?
As is explained, some of this loss is a result of spending on new facilities, which will bring in a long term revenue stream. I`d be more concerned if the losses were a result of Masterton style spending where we were bringing in players on enormous wages.
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Topic Originator: EastEndTales
Date: Fri 1 Mar 15:24
Quote:
jake89, Fri 1 Mar 15:20
Out of interest, did any first division (or championship) club report a profit for the 22/23 season?
As is explained, some of this loss is a result of spending on new facilities, which will bring in a long term revenue stream. I`d be more concerned if the losses were a result of Masterton style spending where we were bringing in players on enormous wages.
There is absolutely no guarantee of an incoming stream from this academy. There is none. Its an idea that may or may not work.
And because we don`t have the P&L to analyse, who is to say that squad salaries are not above the norm? I`m not suggesting we`re in a Masterton situation but rightly, this loss is being questioned and a lack of clarity is what`s driving it.
Ep.17 of East End Tales is out now with Andrius Skerla
https://www.buzzsprout.com/1972630/15082607
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Topic Originator: Dave_1885
Date: Fri 1 Mar 15:35
I wish people would stop referring to the training facilities as “the academy”. Its a training facility for the first team first and foremost and to be used subsequently by youth sides. Theres zero guarantee or belief that it will foster tens of wonderkids worth millions a pop.
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Topic Originator: DA-go Par Adonis
Date: Fri 1 Mar 15:48
I don`t think anyone using the word `academy` thinks that we`re going to turn into Ajax, tbf...
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I love it when we go sell Kevin Nisbet,
He's gonna pay for everyone this season.
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Topic Originator: Stanza
Date: Fri 1 Mar 15:48
My understanding is that Pars United CIC (PUCIC) is still the majority shareholder (66%) of DAFC Ltd. Of course that could change at any moment if DAFC Fussball GmbH exercise their option to convert their loan into shares and take their stake up to 80% of DAFC Ltd.
And the Pars Supporters` Trust is still the largest single shareholder in PUCIC (somewhere between 25 and 30%), with the rest held by other long-standing Pars fans or supporter groups.
So in one form or another we as Pars supporters still own most of DAFC, although realistically it is probably DAFC Fussball GmbH (I wish people would stop calling them "the Germans") who are calling the shots.
So it`s absolutely right that Pars fans should want to keep an eye on the financial viability of what is still (if only just) a supporter-owned club - many of us still bear the scars of the last 11 years.
The problem is that hardly any of us have the degree of accounting knowledge to draw firm conclusions from the information that DAFC Ltd have chosen to put in the public domain. We don`t know the main elements that caused the £1m trading loss in 2022/23, we don`t know whether 2023/24 is following a similar pattern, we don`t know what measures are being taken to improve the situation and we don`t know what level of total losses can be sustained by DAFC Fussball GmbH. In the absence of factual knowledge, suspicion and conspiracy theories flourish.
Despite that, I still believe that those in charge of the situation are also in control of it - I don`t detect any sign of panic or desperation in the Boardroom, contrary to the situation in the last days of Gavin Masterton`s ownership.
But what I think would help would be an open meeting (similar to the ones that used to be held by the Supporters` Council) where the relevant Board members took supporters through some of the detail of the accounts - this was something Ross McArthur did very successfully and AFAIK openly and honestly. Obviously some information is private or commercially sensitive and has to be held back, and there may be regulatory restrictions on what can be disclosed in advance of this year`s figures, but even some big broad brush strokes would be helpful and could allay concerns. Maybe something like this is being planned - I hope so.
_________________
 Support Dunfermline Athletic Disabled Supporters` Club (DADSC) when you shop online with one of 8000 firms: https://www.easyfundraising.org.uk/causes/dadsc[
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Topic Originator: jake89
Date: Fri 1 Mar 15:49
Quote:
EastEndTales, Fri 1 Mar 15:24
Quote:
jake89, Fri 1 Mar 15:20
Out of interest, did any first division (or championship) club report a profit for the 22/23 season?
As is explained, some of this loss is a result of spending on new facilities, which will bring in a long term revenue stream. I`d be more concerned if the losses were a result of Masterton style spending where we were bringing in players on enormous wages.
There is absolutely no guarantee of an incoming stream from this academy. There is none. Its an idea that may or may not work.
And because we don`t have the P&L to analyse, who is to say that squad salaries are not above the norm? I`m not suggesting we`re in a Masterton situation but rightly, this loss is being questioned and a lack of clarity is what`s driving it.
I`m referring to community use AND sales of players.
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Topic Originator: rikaka
Date: Fri 1 Mar 17:47
Who are we in debt too?
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Topic Originator: weemike
Date: Fri 1 Mar 18:12
The "academy" is not to farm kids for profit but to produce players for the first team.
Which in turn should be cost effective.
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Topic Originator: Raymie the Legend
Date: Fri 1 Mar 19:13
Quote:
weemike, Fri 1 Mar 18:12
The "academy" is not to farm kids for profit but to produce players for the first team.
Which in turn should be cost effective.
Or we could just attract players from other academies such as KRH, Otoo, Fisher and MFW?
Much less costs
It`s bloody tough being a legend
Ron Atkinson - 1983
Post Edited (Fri 01 Mar 19:14)
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Topic Originator: cammypar 1995
Date: Fri 1 Mar 19:18
Quote:
EastEndTales, Fri 1 Mar 15:24
Quote:
jake89, Fri 1 Mar 15:20
Out of interest, did any first division (or championship) club report a profit for the 22/23 season?
As is explained, some of this loss is a result of spending on new facilities, which will bring in a long term revenue stream. I`d be more concerned if the losses were a result of Masterton style spending where we were bringing in players on enormous wages.
There is absolutely no guarantee of an incoming stream from this academy. There is none. Its an idea that may or may not work.
And because we don`t have the P&L to analyse, who is to say that squad salaries are not above the norm? I`m not suggesting we`re in a Masterton situation but rightly, this loss is being questioned and a lack of clarity is what`s driving it.
I`d probably say there is more evidence of it not working considering we haven`t sold a youth academy graduate for any significant value for as far as I can remember.
My boss told me her laddie was offered trials with Livingston and was told to swerve it as if they go down they will significantly reduce their youth setup. Be interesting what his thoughts would be if we approached him.
c'mon the pars
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Topic Originator: cammypar 1995
Date: Fri 1 Mar 19:20
Quote:
cammypar 1995, Fri 1 Mar 19:18
Quote:
EastEndTales, Fri 1 Mar 15:24
Quote:
jake89, Fri 1 Mar 15:20
Out of interest, did any first division (or championship) club report a profit for the 22/23 season?
As is explained, some of this loss is a result of spending on new facilities, which will bring in a long term revenue stream. I`d be more concerned if the losses were a result of Masterton style spending where we were bringing in players on enormous wages.
There is absolutely no guarantee of an incoming stream from this academy. There is none. Its an idea that may or may not work.
And because we don`t have the P&L to analyse, who is to say that squad salaries are not above the norm? I`m not suggesting we`re in a Masterton situation but rightly, this loss is being questioned and a lack of clarity is what`s driving it.
I`d probably say there is more evidence of it not working considering we haven`t sold a youth academy graduate for any significant value for as far as I can remember. Even bringing on players to improve our first team only one I can think of that I was or would be upset if we lost or losing would be Matty Todd.
My boss told me her laddie was offered trials with Livingston and was told to swerve it as if they go down they will significantly reduce their youth setup. Be interesting what his thoughts would be if we approached him.
c'mon the pars
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Topic Originator: weemike
Date: Fri 1 Mar 19:30
Quote:
Raymie the Legend, Fri 1 Mar 19:13
Quote:
weemike, Fri 1 Mar 18:12
The "academy" is not to farm kids for profit but to produce players for the first team.
Which in turn should be cost effective.
Or we could just attract players from other academies such as KRH, Otoo, Fisher and MFW?
Much less costs
How much do you reckon KRH, Otoo and fisher cost?
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Topic Originator: wee eck
Date: Fri 1 Mar 19:36
There will probably be add-on clauses attaching to players developed by other academies if we sell them on which will reduce any profit we make. Developing our own players would avoid this.
Post Edited (Fri 01 Mar 19:37)
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Topic Originator: Raymie the Legend
Date: Fri 1 Mar 19:49
Quote:
weemike, Fri 1 Mar 19:30
Quote:
Raymie the Legend, Fri 1 Mar 19:13
Quote:
weemike, Fri 1 Mar 18:12
The "academy" is not to farm kids for profit but to produce players for the first team.
Which in turn should be cost effective.
Or we could just attract players from other academies such as KRH, Otoo, Fisher and MFW?
Much less costs
How much do you reckon KRH, Otoo and fisher cost?
No idea but presume we paid a modest development fee?
How much do you reckon it would cost to produce one of our own ?
It`s bloody tough being a legend
Ron Atkinson - 1983
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Topic Originator: cfad
Date: Fri 1 Mar 20:00
Bottom line here is that a loss of £1M plus is a concern, and us fans should not sleepwalk into a position that could become unsustainable, similar to 10/12 years ago. If history tells us one thing, it’s that we need to learn from it
Post Edited (Fri 01 Mar 20:01)
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Topic Originator: Alter Ego
Date: Fri 1 Mar 20:19
Now here we are 3 years on and I made posts regarding our new takeover and received verbal insults and a yellow/red cards. Yet here we are again with a 1 million loss in the accounts!
Mon the Pars!
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Topic Originator: da_no_1
Date: Fri 1 Mar 20:33
It`s all about you eh?
"Some days will stay a 1000 years, some pass like the flash of a spark"
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Topic Originator: Alter Ego
Date: Fri 1 Mar 20:48
Ah well with the abuse yellow/red cards I took saying our new investors are not the messiahs everyone predicts… but hey ho all is good blah blah. Now the .net best friends come out and have their say?
Build an academy that will cost ££ where we have no wee Ronaldo’s coming out to sell and let our 1st team struggle in the shitty championship?
It makes no sense but I’m sure some of you .net raspers will pile on your abuse??
Mon the Pars!
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Topic Originator: da_no_1
Date: Fri 1 Mar 20:50
Enjoy your night pal
"Some days will stay a 1000 years, some pass like the flash of a spark"
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Topic Originator: Alter Ego
Date: Fri 1 Mar 21:08
See da_no_1 again I asked when the German investors took over and their plans…looks like I was right and we are in the ****??
But hey ho once we get an academy up and running that costs ££££ thousands per month we will have players in the top team.. really eh are we kidding ffs!
Mon the Pars!
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Topic Originator: Kaiser
Date: Fri 1 Mar 21:17
I thought they got a grant of around £600,000 for the Astro pitch. How come there using this as an excuse for the £1.1m deficit.
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Topic Originator: alwaysaPar
Date: Fri 1 Mar 21:18
Quote:
Alter Ego, Fri 1 Mar 21:08
See da_no_1 again I asked when the German investors took over and their plans…looks like I was right and we are in the ****??
But hey ho once we get an academy up and running that costs ££££ thousands per month we will have players in the top team.. really eh are we kidding ffs!
Starting to think you`re debating with yourself..........😄
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Topic Originator: wee eck
Date: Fri 1 Mar 21:25
I don`t think the grant would be known about by 31 May 2023.
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Topic Originator: weemike
Date: Fri 1 Mar 21:40
Quote:
Raymie the Legend, Fri 1 Mar 19:49
Quote:
weemike, Fri 1 Mar 19:30
Quote:
Raymie the Legend, Fri 1 Mar 19:13
Quote:
weemike, Fri 1 Mar 18:12
The "academy" is not to farm kids for profit but to produce players for the first team.
Which in turn should be cost effective.
Or we could just attract players from other academies such as KRH, Otoo, Fisher and MFW?
Much less costs
How much do you reckon KRH, Otoo and fisher cost?
No idea but presume we paid a modest development fee?
How much do you reckon it would cost to produce one of our own ?
I`m not sure either but give a man a fish/ teach a man to fish etc.
I don`t know which process would be better. But the board are obviously hell bent on the academy self sufficient model. And to be fair we`ve never tried this route.
We could just keep competing for the same talent pool as everyone else or we could create our own talent pool.
As long as we don`t go bust trying it this way.....that`s the big issue.
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Topic Originator: OzPar
Date: Sat 2 Mar 00:08
Relegation was always going to be a costly exercise. Coming on the back of the disruptions from Covid, it is a miracle that we got the investment we did when we did from DAFC Fussball GmbH.
Their 7-year plan has been on the back foot almost since day one, with setback after setback halting progress, but, fair dos to them, they still have persisted with the plan. If we are to be a club with any ambition, we should have our own dedicated training facilities. It is a fundamental part of any professional football club. For us, it is long overdue, for it must be 50 years since we last owned our own training facility at Humbug Park.
The academy is a gamble, and I agree with many of the points already made about it. TBH, my enthusiasm for that part of the project dimmed with the sudden departure of Greg Shields.
My fear is that if we get relegated again, the German investment team will pull up stumps and walk away. Then God alone knows what will happen to the Pars.
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Topic Originator: Tenruh
Date: Sat 2 Mar 08:42
Quote:
OzPar, Sat 2 Mar 00:08
Relegation was always going to be a costly exercise. Coming on the back of the disruptions from Covid, it is a miracle that we got the investment we did when we did from DAFC Fussball GmbH.
Their 7-year plan has been on the back foot almost since day one, with setback after setback halting progress, but, fair dos to them, they still have persisted with the plan. If we are to be a club with any ambition, we should have our own dedicated training facilities. It is a fundamental part of any professional football club. For us, it is long overdue, for it must be 50 years since we last owned our own training facility at Humbug Park.
The academy is a gamble, and I agree with many of the points already made about it. TBH, my enthusiasm for that part of the project dimmed with the sudden departure of Greg Shields.
My fear is that if we get relegated again, the German investment team will pull up stumps and walk away. Then God alone knows what will happen to the Pars.
Did we not have training facilities at Kingseat after Humbug ?
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Topic Originator: Indiapar
Date: Sat 2 Mar 08:47
I would have thought that the clubs main outgoings are in salaries, ground maintenance, and the new training facility. I`m sure that the grant will cover part of the cost, but £600,000 won`t get you much these days. Your average new 3 bed house cost is £300k. I would have thought the cost of the new facility would be in the region of £3-£4m minimum so there would be a cost to bear. I think the issue is more how we attract investment into the club to pay for these facilities, including sponsorship, etc. Of course, the training facility will have ongoing operating costs, but perhaps they will cover some of that by sponsorship, advertising, etc. If you are investing your own funds in those sums, then clearly, it`s a 5-7 year plan. The bottom line for me is that you need to break the cycle of promotion and relegation for a club our size. That needs a change in how we do things, and the training facility supports that. It will also build a bridge between the club and the local towns and city and attract local talent that currently goes elsewhere. There are no guarantees in terms of producing the next Ronaldo, but it`s better than not trying at all.
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Topic Originator: jake89
Date: Sat 2 Mar 08:48
Yes, Eagle Glen. It was a driving range and wasn`t fit for purpose so was sold for housing. It`s on the left as you enter Kingseat from the west.
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Topic Originator: The Lawyer
Date: Sat 2 Mar 11:20
Hopefully, the Rosyth training facility will either eliminate or materially reduce the amount the Club currently spends on hiring training and playing facilities for the first team and all the Academy teams. A very substantial saving.
Paraid
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Topic Originator: ianbd6
Date: Sat 2 Mar 14:52
On the face of it £1m in losses is massive. Almost every club makes a loss. These losses are usually covered by directors in the form of loans. If this is the case with Dunfermline then everything is OK. The time to worry is when there isn`t anyone to pick up the slack. Out of interest who will own the Rosyth project
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