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Topic Originator: saltonsgonagetu
Date: Thu 7 Nov 13:16
Not for the first time a player has been caught out with the modern idea of trying to play out from your own box.
Tyrone Mings either didn`t know his keeper had passed along in the box to him, or had a brain freeze ,but stopped the ball with his hand , and gave away a penalty, another draw back of this modern play .
`What was he thinking?` Mings gives away bizarre penalty - https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/videos/cy7dnevekk4o
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Topic Originator: 1985Par
Date: Thu 7 Nov 13:42
Pretentious nonsense. Saw Leipzig chuck away a goal against Celtic whilst trying to play out ie keeper and centre back arsing about from a bye kick.
The purists will tell you it’s all about risk and reward, which baffles me. Teams risk losing it in their own 18 yard box but, at the other end, won’t risk shooting, won’t risk taking a man on or putting in a speculative cross.
Pretentious crap that I’m always delighted to see punished.
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Topic Originator: vasco
Date: Thu 7 Nov 14:38
Call me old fashioned and living in the past but playing out from the back has no place in the second tier ofScottish football.
Play a method that suits the players` strengths and stop trying to mould the players into a method that needs vision, skills and experience they don`t have or can only partly achieve.
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Topic Originator: 1985Par
Date: Thu 7 Nov 14:46
The best bit of passing i`ve seen all season was in the Rovers vs Ayr game last friday. The move that lead up to Rovers second goal was excellent and also done where it really counts ie the final third.
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Topic Originator: wee eck
Date: Thu 7 Nov 15:37
To me the risk seems to far outweigh the reward. With the goalie and two defenders in the six-yard box, if anything goes wrong with the initial passing all the opposing team are played onside!
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Topic Originator: Buster_Brown
Date: Thu 7 Nov 16:37
It’s a football fad and one that does my brain in. I’m not a “launch it all the time” guy but this just seems risky too me and a lot of times, the ball is lost before the team have even crossed the half way line.
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Topic Originator: DunfyDave
Date: Thu 7 Nov 16:43
Quote:
1985Par, Thu 7 Nov 13:42
Pretentious nonsense. Saw Leipzig chuck away a goal against Celtic whilst trying to play out ie keeper and centre back arsing about from a bye kick.
The purists will tell you it’s all about risk and reward, which baffles me. Teams risk losing it in their own 18 yard box but, at the other end, won’t risk shooting, won’t risk taking a man on or putting in a speculative cross.
Pretentious crap that I’m always delighted to see punished.
^^^ Brilliant post 👍
DunfyDave
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Topic Originator: da_no_1
Date: Thu 7 Nov 17:28
Quote:
wee eck, Thu 7 Nov 15:37
To me the risk seems to far outweigh the reward. With the goalie and two defenders in the six-yard box, if anything goes wrong with the initial passing all the opposing team are played onside!
Yeah at our level for every goal like the one Raith scored there`s dozens of moves that amount to nothing and more often than not it goes back to the keeper who launches it anyway.
"Some days will stay a 1000 years, some pass like the flash of a spark"
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Topic Originator: GG Riva
Date: Thu 7 Nov 18:03
The problem is that some managers watch teams like Man City, who can play their way out and have enjoyed great success with their possession based game.
These managers need to realise that City have some of the best players in the world, but even they can become undone as Sporting showed this week. With lesser teams like the Pars, players can easily be panicked into making mistakes and conceding possession if they are pressed close to their own goal.
Not your average Sunday League player.
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Topic Originator: saltonsgonagetu
Date: Thu 7 Nov 18:26
I`m encouraged to see those who have posted , agree this is not something that should be taking place in our level of football, happy Mr McPake has changed from trying this flawed system to something more suited to the level of our game .
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Topic Originator: OzPar
Date: Thu 7 Nov 18:49
Yes, the introduction of Tobi and his long kick-outs has had a very positive effect on our play.
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Topic Originator: fcda
Date: Thu 7 Nov 18:55
Would love to hear a coach`s view on this.
There must be stats that indicate the benefit outweighs the risk. eg, are you more likely to have secure position in the opposition half compared to a punt up the park?
As for "this level", maybe it balances out as the opposition have a similar skillset?
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Topic Originator: TAFKA_Super_Petrie
Date: Thu 7 Nov 19:32
Pretty much get one every week on the EFL highlights where this goes horribly wrong.
Fine if you have the ability, GK included, to do it but playing with fire otherwise. Opposition will quickly suss out who the weak link is and force them a mistake out of them. Queens Park last season springs to mind !!
---------------------------------------------------------------
"People always talk about Ronaldinho and magic, but I didn't see him today. I saw Henrik Larsson; that's where the magic was."
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Topic Originator: Socks
Date: Thu 7 Nov 19:48
"As for "this level", maybe it balances out as the opposition have a similar skillset?"
I don`t think it does balance out, and I think that`s the key point when this is applied at a lower level of football.
Having the ability to take the ball under pressure and be able to hold onto it and pass out of a tight spot, knowing that if you lose the ball there`s a high chance of losing a goal, is a difficult thing to do and needs considerable skill. Having the ability to press an opponent doing this and stick out a foot to get a touch of the ball is a less difficult skill, and also one that players do under less pressure because they aren`t going to lose a goal if they get it wrong. Obviously l can only guess at numbers, but if you were to somehow measure those abilities, I`d expect that you might lose 90% of the ability to hold the ball and play out when dropping from top level to our level, but maybe lose only 50% of the ability to intercept it. It`s not really measureable so it comes to down to a subjective analysis.
I too would be interested to hear the view of a coach, and I agree that it must be driven by data. However, I have a strong suspicion that there is a systematic misreading of whatever data is available, along with the point I`ve mentioned above.
Stats and data can be useful, if used appropriately. But it should be used to supplement what you see from actually watching what goes on, rather than seeking to replace it entirely. I once remember watching cricket and hearing Richie Benaud saying something like `you have to actually watch with your eyes`. Remember, in cricket, it`s far easier to apply stats than in football given the nature of the game and the scoring.
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Topic Originator: NMCmassive
Date: Thu 7 Nov 19:57
I do agree that playing out from the back for the sake of playing out from the back is ridiculous (actually Man City & co don’t play like that) I also think it’s just as ridiculous to dismiss playing out from the back cos we’re in the Scottish championship.
We looked better playing out from the back with Tobi’s distribution because his long, accurate passes bought us the space in our own half then conversely that bought us more space up top so when we went long with accuracy we were able to chase and challenge the 2nd ball. It all helps each other and I don’t think it’s overly complicated. Granted there is definitely risk but the rewards are also there.
Going long every time would genuinely kill off any hope of any decent play or any goals from this Pars side. We’d be as well sending Tobi back to Celtic and starting Mehmet every week if we are going to do that. We’d be worse than watching Morton every week.
COYP
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Topic Originator: Socks
Date: Thu 7 Nov 20:15
That`s a fair point, and an example of the nuance that stats alone struggle to deal with - you have to watch with your eyes.
In general I tend to agree, but we did lose that ridiculous second goal at Falkirk that came from a stupid pass out from the keeper (and it absolutely was mainly his fault) so it`s not absolute. Last season, Airdrie developed a way of playing whereby it was difficult to press them because of how good they could be if they beat the press. That meant they did sometimes get space to play out, and there were situations when it was sensible.
I don`t object to it when it`s sensible and when the team can use it as a credible tactic to start an attack that goes from slow to fast very quickly. Or, as you say, when the opposition have to sit deeper because your keeper can kick long, and you`re left with enough space to do it. It was noticable that both keepers last weekend had particularly long kicks that helped their teams with this.
Again, nuances in play, and all the parts coming together to give something that is difficult to quantify with stats. But situaions where you end up with a bye kick going 5 yards to a player who isn`t that comforatble on the ball anyway - that`s just stupid, and the old fashioned way of kicking to the halfway line and a lottery as to who wins the ball there, is better. And I struggle to see any argument, whether or not backed by data, that that kind of passy nonsense is appropriate in any way.
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Topic Originator: Berkey
Date: Fri 8 Nov 09:50
Agree on this, playing out from the back isn’t going to work unless you have vastly superior players in your team.
Same with the slow build up, you need to have much better players to have the movement and creativity required to open up teams sitting back in this league. Much better to be more direct and get the ball into the box to a decent target man.
The post below replying to me is by one of .nets finest champions of mediocrity!
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Topic Originator: Buster_Brown
Date: Fri 8 Nov 13:03
As those of you who know me will know, I’m a part time coach within an SPFL team’s academy and work with Development and Under 18 squads. I was sitting having a coffee with the First Team manager before they went out to train last night and I brought this up to try and get an understanding of why managers “at this level and below” persist in it.
First of all, asked “what do you think of teams playing out from the back”…he said like everything else he said it was about balance and being able to mix up your style of play, he was in favour of it but it shouldn’t be the 1 thing you do. It helps keep the ball and not giving it straight back to the opposition. In an ideal world, you probably want to keep the pressure on a team but you want the space to be behind their Defenders and inviting the press is a good way to achieve this, whilst retaining the ball.
In the conversation, I asked why managers in Scotland stick with the style despite not having players that can necessarily play it. His reply to this was along the lines of…..in pro academy’s across the country, lads have it drilled into them (which I can confirm is true to my experience) from when they were 10 years old…so if they can’t do it, then they shouldn’t be pro-footballers. Win his experience, players can do it but like a lot of decision making on the park, get things wrong some times.
So there you go, the general views of a current Scottish League Manager on why.
Post Edited (Fri 08 Nov 13:05)
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Topic Originator: bigdonnie
Date: Fri 8 Nov 14:06
hate to see this too dodgy just get ball up park fast
donald mcneil
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Topic Originator: shellypar
Date: Fri 8 Nov 15:05
Quote:
Buster_Brown, Fri 8 Nov 13:03
As those of you who know me will know, I’m a part time coach within an SPFL team’s academy and work with Development and Under 18 squads. I was sitting having a coffee with the First Team manager before they went out to train last night and I brought this up to try and get an understanding of why managers “at this level and below” persist in it.
First of all, asked “what do you think of teams playing out from the back”…he said like everything else he said it was about balance and being able to mix up your style of play, he was in favour of it but it shouldn’t be the 1 thing you do. It helps keep the ball and not giving it straight back to the opposition. In an ideal world, you probably want to keep the pressure on a team but you want the space to be behind their Defenders and inviting the press is a good way to achieve this, whilst retaining the ball.
In the conversation, I asked why managers in Scotland stick with the style despite not having players that can necessarily play it. His reply to this was along the lines of…..in pro academy’s across the country, lads have it drilled into them (which I can confirm is true to my experience) from when they were 10 years old…so if they can’t do it, then they shouldn’t be pro-footballers. Win his experience, players can do it but like a lot of decision making on the park, get things wrong some times.
So there you go, the general views of a current Scottish League Manager on why.
I hated that when i was.younger, still to this day some youth coaches care about winning stuff more than player development, nobody in this world talks about when they won the u11s scottish pro league 2 or what bloodynot, just develop them, they dont need to win everygame as they turj into robots and can only do 1 job required, if needed to do another they simply cant
COYP
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Topic Originator: kelty_par
Date: Fri 8 Nov 20:36
Interesting that the manager said that "It helps keep the ball and not giving it straight back to the opposition." When all evidence points to the opposite. Either you lose it in your own defensive third of the pitch or you end up playing it long anyway. It`s very rare that a team at our level and below is able to beat the press successful and get it through the thirds.
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Topic Originator: Buster_Brown
Date: Fri 8 Nov 20:49
Have to agree with you Kelty Par, found that interesting as well. Obviously that’s what the analysis at the club is showing because I know he studies the footage and the data provided for him and it’s passed on to the players. The Goalkeeper are club does mix it up though, from what I have seen, maybe that’s the key??
I didn’t really challenge the view, there were other people there and I didn’t want it to be any different to any other Thursday night, so just let him give his opinion.
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Topic Originator: NMCmassive
Date: Fri 8 Nov 23:49
I’m struggling to get your logic.
So we want attractive attacking football but we only want to play it long from the back?
Are we saying limiting our options is a good idea?
COYP
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Topic Originator: fcda
Date: Sat 9 Nov 08:32
Cheers for the insight Buster. Kind of backs up what I thought. Still makes me nervous 🙂
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