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Topic Originator: Bertie Paton
Date: Thu 6 Feb 08:27
I was listening to Tidser`s post match interview and he mentioned that he was a lot happier about the second half due to playing out from the back.
He said that ``you hear the groans`` (the fans that is) but playing the ball around the back four created the spare man, ``It`s about being inventive and finding the spare man``.
I`ve no coaching background, so I can only give an unqualified interpretation that he means that we are drawing the opponent towards us by playing the ball around the back line, which is creating space further up the pitch and it`s a case of the players finding that space.
I`ve got to admit to being one of the ``groaners`` he mentions. To my unqualified eye, I think we look better getting the ball forward quicker and playing at a higher tempo. More the way John McLaughlin had us playing.
The one thing I will say about Tidser, is at least he is explaining why he wants to play that way. When McPake tried playing in a similar way, there was no explanation why we were playing that way and that created a lot of frustration.
I`m still to be convinced by his preferred style/strategy but I hope it works and I do like his refreshing honesty.
Post Edited (Thu 06 Feb 08:51)
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Topic Originator: RossF
Date: Thu 6 Feb 08:35
His interview summed up exactly what I thought about last nights game. The one thing I will say is that some players clearly struggle with this style of football. I’m a big fan of Hamilton and Bene but they’re not suited to this style of play. What frustrated me last night is we had a breakaway from defending a corner or free kick and ended up passing the ball back to our defence giving Livi an opportunity to regroup at the back. With the attacking players we have at our disposal it baffles me why they don’t fancy their chances and take on the defender giving them a chance at goal. Passing it back completely kills the chance. Fair enough if you’re a Liverpool or Barcelona but for teams of our calibre it completely ruins an opportunity to create something.
I just hope we can survive and Tidser can build next season with a squad capable of playing to his style.
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Topic Originator: 1985Par
Date: Thu 6 Feb 08:36
I get the theory, I just don`t think it works. Arsenal had about 66% possession last night and lost 2-0. They were talking during the game about teams " controlling the game without the ball", like Newcastle did, and Bournemouth do.
I think that, unless you`re masters at it, this tactic inadvertently plays into the oppositions hands. The championship games I watch are almost always a scrap, with the stronger, more clinical team coming out on top. Passing moves and "spare men" rarely comes into it despite what it says in the coaching manual. Plus, it`s turgid to watch.
And the potential benefit of it is absolutely more than offset by the chance of it going belly-up and conceding a goal.
Post Edited (Thu 06 Feb 08:42)
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Topic Originator: buffy
Date: Thu 6 Feb 08:37
The goalkeeper retaining the ball late on in the second half bamboozled me and I wondered if he had forgotten we were one goal down at that point. A fair few folk around (and me) just wanted him to boot it upfield. I just didn’t want him to lose control passing it short to our back line - and he came close a few times doing just that.
”Buffy’s Buns are the finest in Fife”, J. Spence 2019”
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Topic Originator: da_no_1
Date: Thu 6 Feb 08:58
Quite a lot of teams play this way these days, most of them at a much higher level than us and even the best make a rip-roaring aarse of it.
From the main stand you could see what we were trying to do but if the team retreats almost into their own half, we're just about humped.
"Some days will stay a 1000 years, some pass like the flash of a spark"
Post Edited (Thu 06 Feb 08:59)
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Topic Originator: Zimbo
Date: Thu 6 Feb 09:02
It’s also very risky playing that style of football when the pitch is badly cut up and/or there is a bit of surface water. The ball can easily be deflected or come to a halt unexpectedly.
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Topic Originator: Gaz3822
Date: Thu 6 Feb 09:23
He`s taking a big chance at this stage playing like that, especially with raw youngsters.
Mcglaughlinball would have given us more of a fighting chance methinks.
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Topic Originator: TAFKA_Super_Petrie
Date: Thu 6 Feb 09:26
What is the thinking behind having the centre backs at the corners of the six yard box on a goal kick, only to roll it a few feet to the goalie who then proceeds to launch it long?
If we lose the ball from the kick or it comes back to us we are hemmed in 20+ yards deeper in our own half than we normally would be from a direct punt from the goal kick and also playing everyone onside untill the two CB`s get the chance to push up.
---------------------------------------------------------------
"People always talk about Ronaldinho and magic, but I didn't see him today. I saw Henrik Larsson; that's where the magic was."
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Topic Originator: Dandy Warhol
Date: Thu 6 Feb 09:26
For me it should be safety first then principles but I guess he`ll stand ir fall by it.
I don`t wanna go down like disco.
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Topic Originator: MinnesotaAndy
Date: Thu 6 Feb 09:34
Even top players at top clubs can make an a mess of playing out from the back resulting in a goal for the opposition. IMO any benefits of deliberately inviting pressure in your own first third do not outweigh the disadvantages of such an approach.
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Topic Originator: buffy
Date: Thu 6 Feb 09:40
Quote:
TAFKA_Super_Petrie, Thu 6 Feb 09:26
What is the thinking behind having the centre backs at the corners of the six yard box on a goal kick, only to roll it a few feet to the goalie who then proceeds to launch it long?
If we lose the ball from the kick or it comes back to us we are hemmed in 20 yards deeper in our own half than we normally would be from a direct punt from the goal kick and also playing everyone onside untill the two CB`s get the chance to push up.
I didn’t understand that either, TAFKA. Just seemed pointless and a waste of time.
”Buffy’s Buns are the finest in Fife”, J. Spence 2019”
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Topic Originator: Bannockburn Par
Date: Thu 6 Feb 09:41
He needs the players to fit his tactics, as we all know a large chunk of that squad won’t be playing for the team next season.
We are at the very start of a new era, a massive rebuild will take place at the end of this season.
The only goal we have right now is too stay up.
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Topic Originator: Jeffery
Date: Thu 6 Feb 10:21
I don`t think saying, `I know you get a few moans and groans, but that’s the way I play.` is helping him tbh. He`s said that a few times and if results don`t go his way, it sounds a bit pig headed.
Looking at the longer term, he clearly needs time to implement his `way`. What I would suggest though is that he needs to better explain what that is.
He might also buy patience from fans if he calls out the time it really works. If he doesn`t do this then people will jump on the times it doesn`t, there will be no balance, and there will be a ground swell against his style.
I think it`s a great appointment but he needs to be more flexible in style and change things more quickly during games.
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Topic Originator: oapar
Date: Thu 6 Feb 10:22
The manager will have to learn that one way of playing will not win games, he will have to adjust depending on the team he is playing. Last night Livi did not give us any time on the ball, so slow and ponderous did not work. Let`s hope that the manager will be adaptable, although he seems determined to stick to his plan, or we will be in the league he knows best next year.
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Topic Originator: PARadise
Date: Thu 6 Feb 10:24
I don`t know why anyone would have an issue with keeping the ball. The biggest thing that frustrates me and we`ve been guilty of it for a few seasons now is we work a ball into a good area and because we don`t have good enough players to penetrate and recognise this we recycle it back the way and start again. Surely the whole point of playing possession based football is to work the ball into good areas and attack at pace.
That and not recognising the forward pass when it`s on but admittedly that`s because hammy and Otoo really struggle at doing that
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Topic Originator: Berry
Date: Thu 6 Feb 10:25
Thought the game was an interesting watch.
First half, Livingston just bossed the possession of the ball, we lacked any real attacking intent, bar one header from
Benedictus. We gave the ball away too cheaply many a time but equally we were pretty solid off the ball defensively, Livingston never really looked a threat despite how long they had the ball for.
I don’t think our tactics worked that well playing out from the back, actually don’t put it down to the pitch even though it was dreadful, just the lack of intensity makes it more difficult.
What was really evident is how tall their players are which always made marking them and set pieces difficult, think of the size of Hamilton and Rivaldo in comparison, weren’t really a match so any decent ball in ran a risk.
Second half I thought we were much better, and playing out from the back was working how I thought Tidser had intended it to be. There were a couple of times where it would’ve been better to kick long when there were openings but they are still coming to terms with how best to work in this style.
Mullen, excellent debut, the other two did reasonably well but would need to see them in other matches before casting judgement.
Sorry GG, but I was at the game as well and disagree, thought McCann was very poor tonight, you don’t get any bonus points for putting effort in. He lost the ball on a number of occasions, received the ball in great positions only to make a mess of it, his cross for Yeboah was really poor. He actually with no player around him dribbled the ball off the pitch at one point, thankfully not noticed by the ref. His set pieces were poor as well.
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Topic Originator: parsmad68
Date: Thu 6 Feb 11:29
The pass from Bene to Ngwenya (I think it was him) was a joy to watch. Unfortunately final 3rd let us down again.
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Topic Originator: kelty_par
Date: Thu 6 Feb 11:42
The issue isn`t playing out from the back, it`s the speed or lack of speed when we do so allies with players who either can`t do it or are at best uncomfortable doing it, as well as players starting positions being too deep.
We had a lot of joy v Raith when we moved the ball quicker. We got a bit of joy last night when we moved the ball quicker. The first few minutes saw us play some nice one touch stuff, we had the wee move to Kane where he flicked it onto Yeboah, we had the shimmy and bursting run through the lines by Taylor-Clarke, we had the interplay between Taylor-Clarke, Yeboah and Ritchie-Hosler that got him free on the right, etc
Where we got caught out both on Saturday and last night was when we went short then Benedictus in particular but also Fogarty on Saturday delayed and put their foot on the ball. That invited the press but we are often unable to get round it when put under pressure then it either goes back to the keeper or it goes wide and the best outcome was a blind ball up the line, but often it led to a throw in or to us losing possession in a dangerous area. It was also noticeable how deep our wide players were, particularly last night. Ritchie-Hosler and McCann were both almost on half way, rather than high up against the Livi full backs. This meant that there was no long ball option into the corners and also meant Comrie and Ngwenya were really deep, almost flat with the centre backs at times. This exacerbated the above issue when getting it wide.
The other issue with the style of play is that it becomes predictable. We saw that all too often under McPake. Teams press us high, knowing there is a potential mistake where they can win it in a dangerous area. But if we do beat the press, teams are happy to concede ground as we usually launch it long at some point anyway. Last night it was a futile effort with Yeboah terribly isolated and about a foot shorter than the two Livi centre backs. Again, we did manage to get through the middle a couple of times, once with a couple of quick passes and once when Chilokoa-Mullen ran through from centre half. Other than that we failed to mix it up and we became predictable. Livingston were able to keep their shape and deal with things easily without too much bother.
Maybe this way of playing would work next season with Bray on the right, a proper left winger and Taylor-Clarke at the base of midfield, but at the moment it doesn`t fit the personnel we have. We saw in England last season how Burnley failed to adapt, and this season how Southampton did the same. Livingston are street wise, nasty to play against and well drilled. Falkirk might be easier on the eye but have better technical footballers up the spine and pace in wide areas. Those are the ways you get success in this division, and sticking to a way of playing that had been proven time and again to be unsuccessful is just crazy.
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Topic Originator: Luxembourg Par
Date: Thu 6 Feb 11:44
At our level, we don’t have the players to comfortably ‘rotate’ the play and find the openings.
Watching highlights of ours and leagues higher than ours, every week there are a plethora of goals given away when the pressing on defenders/midfielders trying to play out results in a turnover of possession high up the field, 2/3 touches and it’s a goal.
Does my nut in.
Last night, we had a throw in, a good 15/20 yards into the Livi half, thrown backwards, 3 passes later, the ball is with our goalie.
Great, we retained possession - chances of scoring while Bene, Mullin and Tobi pass it backwards and sideway? NADA
Then, after 5/6/7/8 passes, eventually thee press is high and we launch the ball forward 🙄
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Topic Originator: cammypar 1995
Date: Thu 6 Feb 11:59
It`s all well and good if you have the players capable of having high pass completion rates. On more than one occasion last night our back 4 and even Tobi gave up possession in dangerous positions of the pitch. We look better getting the ball to McCann for a flick on with runners in behind. If we had Stevens last night we could have had him running at the full back as KRH didn`t look great last night. Especially with that pitch we shouldn`t be mucking around with it at the back.
c'mon the pars
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Topic Originator: wee eck
Date: Thu 6 Feb 12:12
For me playing out from the back offers more risk than reward. I remember the second goal we conceded at Falkirk where Hammy, I think, gave the ball away cheaply. With the goalie and two defenders in our six-yard box all their players were onside and they had a simple job to capitalise on possession far up the field and score.
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Topic Originator: bigdonnie
Date: Thu 6 Feb 12:52
livvy like us score first dont lose they havent since may 2024 we havent lost when scoring first since april 2025 thats why its so importasnt we can score first takes pressure of if we get first goal
donald mcneil
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Topic Originator: Angus_W
Date: Thu 6 Feb 12:55
I`m no tactician but surely mixing up the plays is far more effective.
“.........it ain’t over till the Pars score!”
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Topic Originator: GJS93
Date: Thu 6 Feb 13:24
hes fighting a losing battle in different ways.
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Topic Originator: GG Riva
Date: Thu 6 Feb 14:22
Quote:
Berry, Thu 6 Feb 10:25
Sorry GG, but I was at the game as well and disagree, thought McCann was very poor tonight, you don’t get any bonus points for putting effort in. He lost the ball on a number of occasions, received the ball in great positions only to make a mess of it, his cross for Yeboah was really poor. He actually with no player around him dribbled the ball off the pitch at one point, thankfully not noticed by the ref. His set pieces were poor as well.
I respect your opinion, Berry, but I would never call out any player who is doing his best. I said to my pal at the game that I thought McCann covered more grass(?) than any other Pars player and he agreed. If a player`s best isn`t good enough, it`s not his fault that the manager keeps starting him. I read that he`s made around 150 appearances so Tidser isn`t the only manager who believes he brings something to the team.
Not your average Sunday League player.
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Topic Originator: cammypar 1995
Date: Thu 6 Feb 14:52
Quote:
wee eck, Thu 6 Feb 12:12
For me playing out from the back offers more risk than reward. I remember the second goal we conceded at Falkirk where Hammy, I think, gave the ball away cheaply. With the goalie and two defenders in our six-yard box all their players were onside and they had a simple job to capitalise on possession far up the field and score.
Exactly this. Someone with more knowledge of the game than me has to explain why the keeper needs a centre half to roll the ball 3 yards to him for him to control it and then ping it up the park. Surely he can do that unaided? All he needs is to duff the kick (which has happened already) and they can break on us with our centre half playing everyone onside.
c'mon the pars
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Topic Originator: Berkey
Date: Thu 6 Feb 15:53
I’d suggest if Tidser wants to persist with this he’ll need midfielders who are good enough to take it into feet in tight situations and have the ability to turn and get away from thier marker. We don’t have that at the moment.
He needs to just focus on getting points on the board and once we are in a better position we can start to fart around with it at the back and bring better players in next season who can play that way.
The post below replying to me is by one of .nets finest champions of mediocrity!
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Topic Originator: Berry
Date: Thu 6 Feb 16:12
I have no doubt he was trying his best, not faulting the effort he put in, it’s his performance that was very poor and I hope the manager at least calls it out as a pat on the back saying you did your best is no use to anyone.
On the other hand I thought he was excellent against Raith.
Thought Yeboah covered more ground on the night and did the majority of the unwanted grunt work as he was so isolated up top until Kane came on against players much taller.
I don’t usually credit people necessarily all the time for covering grass, perhaps sounds stupid but I always relate it to a game of tig at school, kids running about like mad, caught up in the excitement and so determined to be involved when they aren’t the ones that were individually being chased and pausing, finding room and waiting for the right opportunities and conserving energy is the smarter move. They end up causing themselves more bother.
Daft analogy really for McCann specifically but maybe for some of our previous players, why I didn’t mind Berbatov at Man Utd who was scrutinised for allegedly being lazy.
I quite enjoy watching the Overlap and Beckham was on talking about Messi at Miami and he recalled a young kid asking Messi for some advice and he simply said ‘walk more’ on the pitch, allows you to see things much clearer.
Totally off on a tangent sorry.
Anyway always respect your opinions as well GG, not often we disagree but bound to happen from time to time!
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Topic Originator: Alter Ego
Date: Thu 6 Feb 16:46
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Topic Originator: GG Riva
Date: Thu 6 Feb 18:39
Quote:
Berry, Thu 6 Feb 16:12
Anyway, always respect your opinions as well GG, not often we disagree but bound to happen from time to time!
Cool, mate. It`s fine for folk to disagree, as long as it doesn`t descend into mindless abuse. No chance of that happening with us. I`ll console myself in the knowledge that I`m right.... 😉
Seriously though, I think McCann was signed by AJ in 2018. He started some games for him and subsequently played for Stevie Crawford, Peter Grant, John Hughes, James McPake and now Tidser. Are you or me a better judge of a player than all of these?
Not your average Sunday League player.
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Topic Originator: fcda
Date: Thu 6 Feb 18:50
Quote:
cammypar 1995, Thu 6 Feb 14:52
Exactly this. Someone with more knowledge of the game than me has to explain why the keeper needs a centre half to roll the ball 3 yards to him for him to control it and then ping it up the park. Surely he can do that unaided? All he needs is to duff the kick (which has happened already) and they can break on us with our centre half playing everyone onside.
Not a coach but I think the idea is to setup the same way, whether you`re going long or keeping it short, so the opposition has to push up to cover it. This leaves more space further up the park. They can also change plan after a pass or two.
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Topic Originator: Berkey
Date: Thu 6 Feb 19:01
Of note GG yogi got us relegated and a big part of that was alienating the more experienced strikers we had and going for McCann upfront, worked great for the Ayr game but then it was Dunfermline nil again as we ground to a halt.
We all know mcpakes team not producing enough at the top end of the park did for him, McCann is a big part of that as he played him every week. Interesting he didn’t start him regularly at all in the season we came back up at the lower level then suddenly he was a regular starter at the higher level..….figure that one out!
Can’t think he was a regular starter under Stevie and Grant well again you wouldn’t want to be associated too much with that spell!
For me it will be interesting to see if he’s still in the 11 once the new boys start to settle in, we still don’t have a obv left sided winger so he might well stay in.
Not sure how it works on his contract as there’s a clause at the end of this season for another year if triggered so it might be here’s not here next season. If we want to be challenging for top 3 positions I just think you need better at the business end of the park.
11 goals in 104 games (across 6 seasons so far) at this level isn’t a great return when other clubs have midfielders chipping in with 5-6 goals a season.
Josh cooper for example has 4 in 18 games and has barely started a league game.
Post Edited (Thu 06 Feb 19:10)
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Topic Originator: 68guns
Date: Thu 6 Feb 19:24
Cannot believe the stick McCann gets on here but then again it comes from people who don`t appear happy unless the club is in some sort of crisis.
He`s been one of our better players for a few seasons now and you only have to look at the service our forwards get to see where the lack of chances or goals comes from.
He`s still only 23 but 5 managers have him as a first pick when fit.
It would appear there is a masked prejudice in a few opinions.
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Topic Originator: da_no_1
Date: Thu 6 Feb 19:26
Why do so many threads end up being all about Lewis McCann?
"Some days will stay a 1000 years, some pass like the flash of a spark"
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Topic Originator: Berkey
Date: Thu 6 Feb 19:36
68 guns, we haven’t competed for the championship promotion playoff places for some time now, despite that being where we really should be.
Could it be that some of our regular starters might actually not good enough to get us there?
By 23 years old and 150 apps you think he could time his jumps to compete in the air and always look up to see what’s around him when he has the ball at his feet but more often that not it doesn’t happen.
I’m interested to see what Tidser does with him over the remainder of this season, we haven’t seen what team he puts out when he has everyone to pick from.
The post below replying to me is by one of .nets finest champions of mediocrity!
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Topic Originator: wee eck
Date: Thu 6 Feb 19:47
No matter what team he selects we can be sure you won`t like it.
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Topic Originator: Dandy Warhol
Date: Thu 6 Feb 22:40
Quote:
wee eck, Thu 6 Feb 19:47
No matter what team he selects we can be sure you won`t like it.
Yeah, I fear many on here didn`t even let Tidser through the door.
I don`t wanna go down like disco.
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Topic Originator: Never10yairds
Date: Fri 7 Feb 00:27
I’ve had concerns about Tidser being stuck so rigidly to his philosophy since he came in. It isn’t a style of play I prefer myself either. Was crazy to me last night we were still playing tippy tappy at the back with 20 minutes to go when we were getting beat. You can’t be that one dimensional. You need a plan B.
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Topic Originator: RossDAFC
Date: Fri 7 Feb 01:23
Just playing Devil`s advocate but the alternative is a more direct style of play. McCann has an aerial duel success rate of 51% according to Sofascore, and Mcpake often utilised a long ball to him. This doesn`t account for where the ball fell after winning the header, so the actual success rate of starting an attack from these duels are likely to be much less. Tidser therefore believes that building from the back and creating an overload somewhere on the pitch to create chances will yield a higher success rate than playing for second balls from aerial duels.
What goes against him is our midfield`s on ball ability. Top performers in the league are Brad Spencer (51 passes/game, 86% completed), Stuart Bannigan (37 passes, 87% completed) and Sean Welsh (37 passes, 86% completed). Our best performer is Chris Hamilton with 22 passes per game at a 73% success rate. Chalmers is the best % wise with 85%. The new signings will have been identified to improve these numbers, allowing us to play through the lines with more success (in theory!).
Again in theory, more of the ball = more control, opposition team can`t score when we are in possession. In reality, it depends on how you use the ball and defensive solidity. St Johnstone have had the third highest possession in the league since Valakari took over but still ship too many goals and didn`t create enough chances despite having most of the ball. Their results have turned round in recent weeks but has taken a good while to see results, hopefully we will have a quicker turn around.
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Topic Originator: GG Riva
Date: Fri 7 Feb 06:19
Berry, Berkey, although I used the word "seriously" in my previous post on this thread, I wasn`t being completely serious. 🤪
I`m not for a second suggesting that McCann should be an automatic starter every week, nor that the most recent managers I listed can be mentioned alongside Jock Stein. McCann is an honest pro who puts in a shift in every game. Perhaps he should score more goals, but that depends on how many scoring chances the team creates. Only the very best strikers regularly create their own and we all know that stats can be used to prove almost anything you want to. I think some of the criticism aimed at him on here is very harsh.
One thing is certain; if we bring in a player who is better in his position, McCann will find himself sidelined.
Not your average Sunday League player.
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Topic Originator: RossF
Date: Fri 7 Feb 07:22
One thing I’ve noticed is we don’t seem to take advantage of McCann winning headers. He wins a lot from the diagonal passes that could lead to a dangerous attack for us but no one seems to run into positions to anticipate him winning them. I’m surprised we’ve not tried to take advantage of this.
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Topic Originator: cammypar 1995
Date: Fri 7 Feb 09:59
Quote:
RossF, Fri 7 Feb 07:22
One thing I’ve noticed is we don’t seem to take advantage of McCann winning headers. He wins a lot from the diagonal passes that could lead to a dangerous attack for us but no one seems to run into positions to anticipate him winning them. I’m surprised we’ve not tried to take advantage of this.
McCann wins so much in the air and we never have anyone even close to getting the knockdown it`s so frustrating.
c'mon the pars
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Topic Originator: thebear
Date: Fri 7 Feb 10:55
It might work, if you have the skill and composure to do it, but we don`t.
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Topic Originator: Jeffery
Date: Fri 7 Feb 11:22
We played a lot of high diagonal balls to Lewis against Rovers and he won a lot of headers. I think we targeted their full back as he was much weaker than him.
Against Livi this just didn`t work because Nottingham for them is a giant and a good defender so Lewis barely won anything. Almost as soon as Nottingham went off he won a header.
Nottingham is more often played as a centre half, rather than right back, so Martindale had us well sussed.
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Topic Originator: FA1968
Date: Fri 7 Feb 11:23
Although I am no great fan of McCann and think at best he is a trier with no instinct and limited when he has to think about what to do next he is at least a threat off the left wing. This is more than can be said of the passenger on the right wing who 9 times out of 10 will play an easy passive pass instead of having a go at the full back.
I think both will struggle for game time when Tidser has options available to him and both will end up in League 1 or 2.
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Topic Originator: red-star-par
Date: Fri 7 Feb 13:49
I thought McCann played well in the last two games I seen him, against Rovers and Livi. Can`t fault him for effort and he tried to make things happen. I reckon if he had played in a Bert Paton-style Pars team, up front with a partner in a 4-4-2 we would see the best of him, unfortunately strike partnerships seem to be out of fashion at the moment
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