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Topic Originator: sammer
Date: Tue 18 Dec 22:42
I’m not able to download the BBC investigation into the death of Sheku Bayoh from Moscow, so cannot comment on the programme. However I would like to make a couple of points.
From the outset it was reported by Police Scotland that a ‘petite, female officer’ had been injured in the arrest of Bayoh. This was clearly an attempt to shift the focus from the arresting officers on to the victim: if a woman is too small to arrest a suspect then she is clearly in the wrong job. To be fair to the WPC involved, she seems to have given a far more fair account of events and her incidental injuries than her male colleagues. The suspicion has always been that they were attempting to accentuate her gender in order to justify their own actions.
The failure of Police Scotland to state that one of the arresting police officers was a 6ft 4ins heavy duty copper has to be seen in light of their emphasis on the female officer. If it takes six police officers to arrest one man then the police are not just incompetent but seriously overmanned. I have no objection to a big, strong copper who can use his physique to make an arrest; it is the numbers that are the issue.
What exactly can the police legally carry? An ASP I think is used in Fife, an expandable metal baton. I cannot remember voting for the switch from wood to metal but perhaps I was otherwise engaged. A spray which incapacitates is also legal, so far as the courts can be trusted, if not the law. Finally a taser may be used to electrocute the suspect, causing temporary paralysation of the central nervous system. In short, the police are armed torturers, themselves protected by stab proof vests. Now that is a considerable advantage in an arrest scenario, yet we are told that despite all this equipment six officers struggled to arrest a single man who later died as a result of his arrest.
No doubt someone will claim that if Bayoh had not been acting in a dangerous manner (despite no knife ever being found) then he would not have met his untimely death. My position is that I would rather meet a disgruntled Bayoh at Hayfield Roundabout than half a dozen police officers armed to hilt intent on pinning me to the ground. Know thy enemy, as the saying goes.
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Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks
Date: Wed 19 Dec 00:14
He wasn't acting in a disgruntled manner. He was acting erratically because he had taken a cocktail of narcotics. It wasn't the police that notified themselves of a man acting in an aggressive manner brandishing a knife, it was members of the public who called the police. According to every report I have read a knife was found nearby. The fact the family and lawyer all make great emphasis of the fact that he didn't have a knife on him when the police arrived, not that had never had a knife, suggests that the knife found nearby was one he had discarded moments before.
What i find particularly disturbing about this case is the calls by some to make it a race issue. The vast majority of people who die in police custody are white. We know this because in the UK such details are recorded and widely publicised.
And although my eyes were open
They just might as well be closed
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Topic Originator: londonparsfan
Date: Wed 19 Dec 10:28
Even when a suspect is suspected of carrying a knife they're not meant to go in all guns blazing like they did.
By the time they were restraining him they must have known he didn't have a knife and there's videos of them lying across the top of a suspect which you're not meant to do.
When we were getting tought restraints as part of my security guard course (I've had some career highs) you were constantly told that if anything other than the minimum amount of force was used and the person you were restraining was injured it was your ass on the line especially if they died. We were specifically told not to put weight on people's chests because of the risk it posed. Once you get someone into a proper restraint it's nearly impossible to get out of. There were lasses half the size of the blokes at my course with them pinned down and struggling to get out and they couldn't move.
The expert that normally defends the police in these cases even said it was aggression first with no attempt to deescalate the situation.
On the point of race I don't know how you cant say it doesn't come into it. The officers themselves said in their statements that when they knew it was a big black guy with a knife they thought of Lee Rigby and thought it was a terrorist attack. That's going to change the way they approached the situation completely as they had a pre conceived idea based on the colour of the guys skin.
Then there's PC Paton that battered his own parents and apparently admitted he hated all blacks.
The smear campaign started almost immediately, it was the same MO as Hillsborough, demonize the victim to lessen public support.
There has to be an Inquiry into the death.
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Topic Originator: richie5401
Date: Wed 19 Dec 12:49
I'm sure the police would have preferred to meet"a disgruntled" Bayoh as well but that isn't what they encountered.
"Armed torturers"that's bit OTT.Why do you think they have all that equipment.Just in case springs to mind.In today's world police have no idea what they will be confronted with.
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Topic Originator: dafc
Date: Wed 19 Dec 13:25
The TV programme for me cleared the Police really of any wrong doing or racism. BBC picking out certain phrases within the statements too didn't fill me with any confidence. You ask any 6 people and there will always be slight differences, at the end of the day he was clearly out his nut high on drugs, was asked to leave his friends house, then assaulted another friend on his way home, staggering over all the road with a knife, I believe the Police acted appropriately, his death while unfortunate I for one wont apportion blame to the Police with this one.
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Topic Originator: londonparsfan
Date: Wed 19 Dec 16:33
Really? If that had been a white guy walking down the street with a knife would it have been thought of as a potential terrorist attack?
If they did think it was a terrorist attack why didn't they radio it in as a suspected terrorist attack so they could send the proper terrorist response groups?
Why did they describe the guy as a huge black guy, one of the biggest guys they'd ever seen when he was actually only bigger than the female officer attending?
Why did they say they only knelt on him briefly when the eye witness recording clearly show at least one police officer lying on top of him for a prolonged period?
Why did the police arrive and attack the guy immediately? Why did they not deescalate the situation?
If one of our relatives was killed being detained by English police and their statement said they changed their approach because they'd been made aware our relative was Scottish (implication being we're all raj Buckie drinking nut jobs) and then went in mob handed with no attempt to deescalte the situation, ultimately killing our relative when they were unarmed we'd go apoplectic.
Even though our relative had broken the law, everyone on this forum would go mental at the police in that scenario and it would be justified. The penalty for being off your nut on drugs and fighting your mate is not death at the hands of the police.
Post Edited (Wed 19 Dec 17:14)
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Topic Originator: Buspasspar
Date: Wed 19 Dec 19:01
We will never get the full truth to this sad case although there is fresh evidence to suggest the police did in fact lie about many things that happened that day Looking more like from the evidence available to the public that Sheku Bayou died as a result of an over robust police arrest
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Topic Originator: sammer
Date: Wed 19 Dec 22:13
Richie,
Forget project fear. The streets of Fife are no more dangerous than when I was a teenager in the 1970s. Maybe less so. In these days they were armed with a wooden baton and nothing more. It seemed to work. The last police officer killed on duty in Fife was actually in Kirkcaldy, over a century ago. He was kicked to death.
The police in the UK have been politicised, as happened during the Miners' Strike of 1984. As a consequence of that an enormous gap has opened up between the top and bottom of society, hence the need for the police to be militarised.
I stand by my description of their equipment as being torture equipment. There is no need for tasers or for incapacitating sprays. When the police twice, had to arrest notorious drunken brawler Eric Joyce, MP, in the House of Commons for violent conduct, far worse than anything Sheku Bayoh ever attempted, they managed to do this without recourse to torture equipment. Can yo imagine an MP being tasered in the HOC? No, neither can I. So what is good enough for Eric Joyce should have been good enough for Sheku Bayoh.
sammer
Post Edited (Wed 19 Dec 22:14)
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Topic Originator: richie5401
Date: Wed 19 Dec 22:24
I don't think you can compare this incident to any era Sammer.You are correct in general i though it's not any more or less violent,folks still get steaming and fight etc but there are different drugs involved this being an isolated incident in that respect.
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Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks
Date: Wed 19 Dec 22:30
Were the police called because Eric Joyce was wandering the corridors of the HoC waving a knife around?
And although my eyes were open
They just might as well be closed
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Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks
Date: Wed 19 Dec 23:15
Not strange at all. Totally different set of circumstances but I think you know that.
And although my eyes were open
They just might as well be closed
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Topic Originator: londonparsfan
Date: Wed 19 Dec 23:36
Different but not that much different.
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Topic Originator: Rastapari
Date: Thu 20 Dec 06:40
It's been established the Police have lied, no surprise there.
That really is the end of it, they do things right,no need to lie.
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Topic Originator: sammer
Date: Thu 20 Dec 21:32
The fact it has taken three years to get this far is clearly evidence that the police are uncomfortable with the case. When all else fails, just play it long. Imagine if it had been a member of the public who was involved in the death of a policeman. Would it have taken three years without criminal proceedings? Obviously not.
We have been thrown the name of an arresting officer and some remarks he has made, alongside some domestic violence allegations. This is to me a face saving operation approved by Police Scotland. The concept of the rogue policeman is being highlighted in order to protect the organisation. As it happens, I came across this policeman, now hung out to dry, when he was a teenager and am surprised he was able either to acquire the academic qualifications to enter police training or judged to be of solid enough character. My poorish opinion of him was widely shared by colleagues at the time. So how did he ever manage to become a policeman? I appreciate that a person’s attitude and commitment can change at a later stage in their life, but character is pretty much fixed.
A baton is sufficient. It used to be the case that police were told to strike the shoulder or the knees, in order to bring the man down. Two men doing this could bring down Mike Tyson or Tyson Fury, before cuffing him. Forget all that drivel about drunks or drug addicts having superhuman powers. If that made a man stronger the boxing ring would reek of alcohol or drugs. The arrested man is then loaded into the Black Maria and life continues as before. It’s not nice, it is slightly brutal. But it is not torture and is intended to keep the peace with minimum force. It’s the best option compared with all the rest.
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Topic Originator: sammer
Date: Thu 20 Dec 21:36
TWWK,
Just for clarification to your earlier point, there is no evidence that Sheku Bayh was ever waving a knife around in the street. Presumably a member of the public saw him and was concerned enough to phone police, but such reports are notoriously inaccurate. The case of Harry Stanley, the wretched Scotsman in London carrying a table leg home to his flat and misidentified as an IRA gunman, is the best example I can give.
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Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks
Date: Thu 20 Dec 22:30
Sammer the fact that the family say 'he never had a knife when the arrived' instead of 'he never had a knife that morning' speaks volumes.
And although my eyes were open
They just might as well be closed
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Topic Originator: londonparsfan
Date: Fri 21 Dec 09:02
I think that's probably because everyone knows that he did have a knife. I don't think anyone in the family is disputing that but the fact he didn't have it when they arrived is hugely significant.
They've gone in hard in an unarmed man because they didn't follow their usual processes to determine whether he actually had a knife in the first place.
They're also then not meant to kill the guy.
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Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks
Date: Fri 21 Dec 12:07
Didn't they go in hard after he first attacked the female police officer?
And although my eyes were open
They just might as well be closed
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Topic Originator: londonparsfan
Date: Fri 21 Dec 12:51
No mate, they had pepper sprayed him and CS gassed him within 45 seconds of the first two cops arriving.
There was no sign of a knife and even though the police would have been understandably concerned it was concealed, you can see from the video that he's not made any threatening moves before they pile into him.
It's why I put the link up to the other incident which showed a completely different approach by the police. You're right that no two incidents are ever the same but there were no suspected reports of a possible terrorist attack by the officers in that case when it was another man under the influence of drugs actually carrying a concealed knife. Why did one guy get pepper sprayed in 45 seconds and the other guy got dealt with by simply being spoken to?
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Topic Originator: Buspasspar
Date: Fri 21 Dec 20:40
Quote :-Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks
Date: Fri 21 Dec 12:07
Didn't they go in hard after he first attacked the female police officer?
Towk did he attack a female police officer ?
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Topic Originator: londonparsfan
Date: Fri 21 Dec 20:49
Yeah he hit her and knocked her to the ground which he obviously shouldn't have done but you shouldn't end up dead for that. The cops then lied about how many times he hit her both through the press and in their official statements.
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Topic Originator: sammer
Date: Fri 21 Dec 20:57
This talk of female officers may just about be illegal these non-genderist days. It certainly irrelevant. We employ an officer egardless of gender and that is how I imagine WPCs, as they were once known, want things to remain.
As I have said earlier, my understanding of her report is that she is far less dramatic in her description of events than her male colleagues.
It was a botched arrest. no one can pretend otherwise. I have no idea whether it was racistly motivated or not. But it was botched nonetheless.
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Topic Originator: londonparsfan
Date: Fri 21 Dec 21:28
I don't know if it was down to racism either. There's only one accused of being a racist and that's also an unverified accusation.
If you look at the number of times white males are apprehended on the suspicion of carrying a knife in the Kirkcaldy area as far as I can see the stops have never escalated to pepper spray and CS gas within less than a minute but it has when there was a black suspect. There's also (from what I can see at least) never been a suggestion of any reports of white males carrying knives being considered a risk of a terrorist attack but again the colour of the suspect was referenced as a reason to suspect there was the potential for Lee Rigby style attack.
I do think looking at the statements the police made, the fact they knew he was black meant that they went in more aggressively than they would have if it had been a white suspect so even if they aren't racist (you could argue changing the approach is racist regardless) I do think race played a part in the rapid escalation at the start of the incident.
After he hits the officer I'd agree it just looks like a botched restraint from the video.
I also agree the officers sex is irrelevant. She's there to do the job the same as a male officer and I also agree her statement appeared far less dramatic than the male officers which goes to Rastas point that if they'd done things properly they wouldn't have to lie.
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Topic Originator: dafc
Date: Sat 22 Dec 09:55
Did they lie though? You put 6 people in that circumstance and you will have different versions. How many different versions will we have of today's game? How many folk will say he was MOM while others watching same game say was poor. It's being human.
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Topic Originator: Rastapari
Date: Sat 22 Dec 11:33
Quote:
dafc, Sat 22 Dec 09:55
Did they lie though? You put 6 people in that circumstance and you will have different versions. How many different versions will we have of today's game? How many folk will say he was MOM while others watching same game say was poor. It's being human.
Eh....the accounts were fairly erratic and quite wildly different in places...for me they have lied.
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Topic Originator: londonparsfan
Date: Sun 23 Dec 10:35
Yes they did lie:
The police recorded in one police report that he struck someone with a machete.
In the press the Police federation said the assault on the female officer was unprovoked but by the time he hit the officer, Bayoh had been pepper sprayed and CS gassed by the officers and hit with a baton by the female officer.
They said that the female officer was kicked and stamped on which you can see in the video didn't happen. As Sammer points out the female officers official statement is far closer to the video footage than the male officers who stated it was a more prolonged attack.
When they were restraining him they said they only lay on top of him briefly when you can see in the 2nd video they were on top of him for quite a while, certainly long enough to potentially cause someone breathing difficulties.
The last of the lies is obviously the most important one.
This is the CV of the restraint expert they spoke to about the police's approach:
http://www.ericbaskind.com/law.html
And this is a summary of what he said in the program:
"But documents examined by police restraint expert Eric Baskind of Liverpool John Moore University revealed that before Bayoh’s alleged stamping attack on the officer, three officers discharged irritant spray into his face and a fourth drew her baton on him.
Baskind said: “He’s not running away, he’s not, at that moment in time, creating a danger to anyone.
“They get there, they screech to a halt, they get out of the cars with irritant sprays and batons. That to me doesn’t seem measured.
That is not best practice. And all of those actions were very escalatory.”
There definitely should be an official Inquiry to find out whether the police have acted improperly.
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Topic Originator: calpar
Date: Wed 26 Dec 16:51
why are these police officers still on gardening leave and full pay though ?
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Topic Originator: OzPar
Date: Sat 29 Dec 01:40
I think a point that is ignored here is that, unlike most other forces in the world, the British Police, for the most part, don't carry guns. Therefore, every day they are going into situations where they are potentially exposed and at a serious disadvantage. That must have an impact on how they approach arrests, particularly ones where the offender is reported to be carrying a weapon.
In Oz, where police do carry guns, there have been many, many cases of police shooting first and asking questions later, often with fatal results.
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