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Topic Originator: AdamAntsParsStripe
Date: Mon 18 Feb 10:44
Luciana Berger, Chuka Umunna, Gavin Shuker, Angela Smith, Chris Leslie, Mike Gapes, Ann Coffey have split to try form a new party.
If this snowballs, it could spell disaster for Jeremy Corbyn.
Zwei Pints Bier und ein Päckchen Chips bitte
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Topic Originator: shrek par
Date: Mon 18 Feb 11:47
Red Tories flying the nest.
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Topic Originator: Tenruh
Date: Mon 18 Feb 12:15
This isn't looking good for the Labour Party, that'll be 20 more years of their blue brothers in power.
Thankfully we've got a Scottish party looking after our interests here.
Post Edited (Mon 18 Feb 13:43)
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Topic Originator: Captain Desmond Fancey
Date: Mon 18 Feb 12:32
Interesting that they want their constituents to have a second vote on a referendum, yet don't seem to want to have any by-elections.
They conveniently forget that they were voted in on the basis of a Labour manifesto.
The good old days
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Topic Originator: parbucks
Date: Mon 18 Feb 12:33
Corbyn has brought this on himself with his vacillating in dealing with anti semitism in the Labour Party.
The report of Chakrabarti a couple of years ago was a cover up job at the time and the issue was not put to bed.
She was “rewarded” for her efforts with a seat in the House of Lords.
Post Edited (Mon 18 Feb 12:50)
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Topic Originator: londonparsfan
Date: Mon 18 Feb 12:45
Serious question but what are the examples of Anti-Semitism he hasn't dealt with?
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Topic Originator: parbucks
Date: Mon 18 Feb 12:47
Post deleted.
Post Edited (Mon 18 Feb 12:50)
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Topic Originator: AdamAntsParsStripe
Date: Mon 18 Feb 13:06
Quote:
londonparsfan, Mon 18 Feb 12:45
Serious question but what are the examples of Anti-Semitism he hasn't dealt with?
I'm not likely to vote Labour again in my lifetime so no bias here.
I think the antisemitism issue is a smokescreen but useful to the rebels in the party who know the history of some of the leadership and friends.
Labours position on Brexit is going to be their undoing regardless of today.
They are simply not opposing it and the country is crying out for an alternative as we know more facts about the outcome.
I know Labour folk will mention the conference vote but the conference vote also said if their 6 red lines weren't met they have the right to offer a people's vote.
They have no excuses and this rebel thing may well escalate in the next few days.
Zwei Pints Bier und ein Päckchen Chips bitte
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Topic Originator: sammer
Date: Mon 18 Feb 13:13
The anti-Semitism accusations seem, from the outside at least, to be a confected issue used to attack Corbyn. These accusations are used as a code for his sympathy towards the Palestinians and his opposition to using force to acquire control of oil supplies in the Middle East. Having wrecked Iraq and later Libya, there are powerful interests furious that Corbyn has been an obstacle to them doing the same in Syria and, in their fantasy world, Iran. They can hardly appeal to the UK public on the basis of ‘We want more wars!’ so seek to create a caricatured image of Corbyn that shows him as pro-Islam therefore anti- Semitic, and generally weak on foreign policy.
Today’s breakaway group have an ambivalent relationship with democracy. They were furious that Corbyn won his first leadership election, so decided to organise a second one. They lost that one by an even bigger margin. On Brexit they are furious that they lost the first referendum, so, guess what, they have spent the last two years trying to organise a second one in regard to that as well. The possibility that they might lose Brexitref2 by a bigger margin does not seem to have entered their minds. They are still in denial that Corbyn actually increased the Labour vote at the last General Election, something which was a massive disappointment to them naturally, since a resounding defeat was more in their own interests. Having gained their seats by standing as Labour candidates they, unsurprisingly, are in no hurry to test the political temperature by standing as independents in a by-election.
But apart from all the above, they are staunch democrats who believe in giving power back to the people; so long as the people vote the right way that is.
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Topic Originator: londonparsfan
Date: Mon 18 Feb 13:25
I completely agree with both your posts. I was asking the question in case I'd missed something!
I think there was one case (Shah?) where an MP was anti semetic and I'm pretty sure she was suspended if not expelled? The rest of it just seems to be mud slinging as he doesn't approve of Israel's treatment of the Pallestinians.
I also agree with AAPS that Brexit is far more likely to be a problem for Labour than this incident. I've said before that Labour have a very similar split to the Conservatives on Brexit it just doesn't get anywhere near as much media attention as they aren't in Government. As soon as they are forced to take a stand on certain issues it's going to be impossible to appease everyone and the cracks will start to show.
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Topic Originator: parbucks
Date: Mon 18 Feb 13:29
Twitter feed from a well respected former Labour government minister who was herself the subject of a witch hunt by extremists in her local party.
“Margaret Hodge
@margarethodge
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2h
For far too long many of us have put up with intolerable & unprecedented antisemitic abuse from the hard left. But with my Jewish colleagues I want to stay and fight for the values, principles and soul of the party that was the natural home for Jews when I joined 57 years ago 3/3
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Show this thread
Margaret Hodge
Margaret Hodge
@margarethodge
·
2h
Luciana has faced outrageous abuse, threats & hatred from her local party as well as nationally. With no support from the leadership I understand why enough is indeed enough for her. She has been a strong, determined & brave fighter in our campaign against antisemitism 2/3 “
Support for Luciana Berger MP who has suffered intolerable levels of abuse from within Labour.
Post Edited (Mon 18 Feb 13:31)
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Topic Originator: sammer
Date: Mon 18 Feb 13:31
AAPS,
As someone who thinks Brexit will not be good for the UK, I too would like to see Corbyn take a stronger stance on Brexit.
However he has tried to adopt a policy that reflects the 52-48% vote recorded two years ago. Those demanding he call a second referendum are assuming there would be a clear cut vote to Remain, but this is probably wishful thinking. Most likely there would be another close vote that would keep the country polarised and politically paralysed, and we would be no further forward.
The loudest voices calling for a Brexitref2 are the SDP2, that group who have spent all their life claiming there is massive support for a new centrist party in the UK apparently unaware that we already have one- it is now called the Liberal Democrat Party- and that it has never won an election for one hundred years.
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Topic Originator: sammer
Date: Mon 18 Feb 13:40
'Support for Luciana Berger MP who has suffered intolerable levels of abuse.'
Politics is a rough old trade, as the saying goes. Of course any party member throwing personal abuse at another one should be disciplined, and if need be expelled.
But no one has endured more abuse than Jeremy Corbyn over recent years- even his victories in the leadership contest were greeted with sour acceptance by mainstream media, more keen on confecting stories about him being anti-Semitic, pro-IRA, or a Soviet agent. Maybe the woman Berger is in the wrong job.
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Topic Originator: londonparsfan
Date: Mon 18 Feb 13:51
Thanks for the stuff on Berger I hadn't seen that. Quick bit of Googling threw up:
"She has since endured vitriolic ‘trolling’ on local party websites, being called an ‘Israeli attack dog’, a ‘dirty little Zionist rat’ and worse."
Obviously that is out of order and I'd want the people posting that disciplined in the same way that I'd want the grass root level Islamaphobes in the Conservatives disciplined but I'm not sure you can say either party is institutionally racist/anti semetic or Islamaphobic.
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Topic Originator: Captain Desmond Fancey
Date: Mon 18 Feb 13:52
"They are simply not opposing it and the country is crying out for an alternative as we know more facts about the outcome."
Are they really ?
"They are still in denial that Corbyn actually increased the Labour vote at the last General Election, something which was a massive disappointment to them naturally, since a resounding defeat was more in their own interests"
So did Theresa May, and in doing so defeated Corbyn.
With any kind of even reasonably competent leader the Labour Party should be out of sight in opinion polls. However, recent ones have pointed to parties being level pegging or the Conservatives with a lead.
The good old days
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Topic Originator: Captain Desmond Fancey
Date: Mon 18 Feb 13:53
"Obviously that is out of order and I'd want the people posting that disciplined in the same way that I'd want the grass root level Islamaphobes in the Conservatives disciplined"
Why just the Conservatives, or do you not really believe that Islamaphobes do not exist across the entire political spectrum? There are racists and bigots across all walks of life, including the "left".
The good old days
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Topic Originator: parbucks
Date: Mon 18 Feb 13:54
While Seamus Milne remains at the heart of Corbyn’s acolytes controversy will never be far away.
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Topic Originator: londonparsfan
Date: Mon 18 Feb 14:17
I'd used that as it was an example from the other major political party that was talked about on here when the Conservatives were accused of Islamaphobia.
In an ideal world no one would be abusing anyone based on gender/colour/nationality/religion etc. so I'd obviously want consistency in how it was handled in all cases.
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Topic Originator: AdamAntsParsStripe
Date: Mon 18 Feb 14:19
Sammer. I agree a second vote might be the wrong move. I'm not really in favour of it myself for the reasons you set out.
But, there is a clear case for throwing out Brexit given what we all know now.
I don't think anyone agreed to a no deal Brexit in 2016 or wants one.
It is unclear if Corbyn wants to stop it or just persue Number Ten.
His past record suggests he would welcome Brexit no matter what.
Zwei Pints Bier und ein Päckchen Chips bitte
Post Edited (Mon 18 Feb 14:19)
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Topic Originator: sammer
Date: Mon 18 Feb 15:04
Corbyn’s stance on Brexit is far from clear to me. He was a long time anti-EU man along with the likes of Dennis Skinner and Arthur Scargill who viewed the EU as a bankers’ club with rules designed to sustain a capitalist economy at the expense of the workers, rejecting the popular vote of a country where necessary. There is a fair bit of logic in that argument as no doubt the Greek populace would agree.
Corbyn did however campaign, as did Varoufakis the deposed Greek politician, on the basis that the UK should remain in the EU and reform it. Whether his heart was truly in the campaign is questionable: for all his cited limitations as a political leader, even his critics acknowledge that Corbyn has always excelled at campaigning. Yet there remains a feeling is that Corbyn fought a lack lustre campaign and was quite relaxed about the Brexit vote winning.
As regards a crash out Brexit, I do not see how that is possible. Those shouting for No Deal failed to remove Theresa May as party leader at the end of last year, so they cannot command a majority within their own Tory Party, far less the House of Commons. The Conservative Party is also the party of big business, so can hardly act against their interests without filing for bankruptcy. The threat of No Deal seems to be kept on the table as a bargaining tool with the EU and as a weapon to enforce support for May’s deal.
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Topic Originator: AdamAntsParsStripe
Date: Mon 18 Feb 15:30
I can understand Corbyn's anti banker stance etc especially as a back bencher but the EU has moved on since then and compared to the UK democracy quite comparable as to cheating and corruption.
What I don't get is Corbyn seeks "A" customs union which hands power to the EU and leaves Britain outside without a say in rule making.
This goes even more against his princibles surely?
He needs to stop trying to please everybody, realise the country is split and take a gamble and just say there should be no Brexit.
He'd get more popularity than you'd think that way but sadly I think he's been sussed out now and untrustworthy.
Zwei Pints Bier und ein Päckchen Chips bitte
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Topic Originator: Captain Desmond Fancey
Date: Mon 18 Feb 15:35
"But, there is a clear case for throwing out Brexit given what we all know now."
You only know what Project Fear is telling you. The truth is nobody really knows what's going to happen.
Maybe the forecasts will be accurate as the ones that says you the UK would be paralyzed just for voting to leave. Remember the emergency budget etc that was going to be needed.
You'd be forgiven for thinking some people want it to fail.. One thing that's hacked me off over the last few years is how quickly people are to talk down the resilience of the UK people and the UK economy.
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Topic Originator: Buspasspar
Date: Mon 18 Feb 19:12
'Buried in a 19,800 word Spectator essay written by former online editor and Vote Leave director Dominic Cummings is an admission: The Brexit referendum was won by lying to the public......... Ach Weel :-(
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Topic Originator: OzPar
Date: Wed 20 Feb 03:29
And so was the last election, Busspasspar.
:)
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Topic Originator: par-adise
Date: Thu 21 Feb 22:04
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Topic Originator: parbucks
Date: Thu 28 Feb 21:44
After the Williamson suspension as an MP from Labour and his close connection with Corbyn does anyone seriously believe that anti Semitism has been eradicated from the Labour left and Momentum who seem to rule the party?
Maybe the Shadow Attorney General, Baroness Chakrabarti, can advise us.
Post Edited (Fri 01 Mar 12:01)
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Topic Originator: Rastapari
Date: Thu 28 Feb 22:12
Ghost party to ensure future Tory support...complete farce.
Democracy😂
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Topic Originator: Buspasspar
Date: Sat 2 Mar 20:08
Rastapari
I'm not remembering things like I should but I think they said they would support Tmay if she takes no deal off the table or was it a second referendum ? I honestly canny mind and canny be bothered looking it up :-)
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Topic Originator: calpar
Date: Mon 4 Mar 11:11
As the majority of uk citizens also feel, cannae be bothered with it, me included, they have successfuly ground us down
Wtf have they all been actually getting paid a fortune for the last 2 years?
Get them all up the road !
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