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Topic Originator: OzPar
Date: Sat 11 May 01:22
I am not a great fan of Andrew Neil, but full marks to him for his surgical exposure of the odious Ben Shapiro. This dangerous hyper-speed talker is not used to having his opinions questioned quite so meticulously in the USA. A very enjoyable watch...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VixqvOcK8E
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Topic Originator: wee eck
Date: Sat 11 May 09:41
It was enjoyable, particularly when he accused Andrew Neil of being left-wing! He probably is by his perspective.
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Topic Originator: richie5401
Date: Sat 11 May 12:35
Lol...Andrew Neil's fact checker will be getting the sack.
"This Dangerous high speed talker"..Dangerous?..dear oh dear...Is that where we are?Disagreement is now dangerous.Only Fascism would take that view.
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Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks
Date: Sat 11 May 13:06
Storming off when someone challenges your views. Only someone without a coherent argument would do that.
And although my eyes were open
They just might as well be closed
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Topic Originator: wee eck
Date: Sat 11 May 13:11
He seemed to think that the nature of this type of interview should be that they ask each other questions. Twice he mentioned that he hadn't heard of Andrew Neil. Why should he have? Does he see politics as some sort of celebrity pursuit?
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Topic Originator: OzPar
Date: Sat 11 May 13:22
<<"This Dangerous high speed talker"..Dangerous?..dear oh dear...Is that where we are?Disagreement is now dangerous.Only Fascism would take that view.>>
He would like to wipe the Palestinians out. Yes, he's dangerous.
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Topic Originator: richie5401
Date: Sat 11 May 13:28
"wipe out"...it's called defending your nation.
Do you really believe if Palestinians laid down there weapons Israel would attack?Please.
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Topic Originator: onandupthepars
Date: Sat 11 May 14:45
Seems like terrorism - i.e. indiscriminate killing and causing great suffering - from both sides.
Post Edited (Sat 11 May 14:47)
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Topic Originator: richie5401
Date: Sat 11 May 14:50
Only one side has made any attempt at conciliation.It has been rejected in every instance and met with further violence.
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Topic Originator: onandupthepars
Date: Sat 11 May 14:58
Ref: richie5401
Date: Sat 11 May 14:50
<<< Only one side has made any attempt at conciliation >>>
You mean Israel. Aside from that though, missiles from both Palestinians and Israelis kill and cause great suffering indiscriminately.
Post Edited (Sat 11 May 15:01)
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Topic Originator: OzPar
Date: Sat 11 May 14:59
I am always happy to engage with people on Dotnet, whether it is to agree or to challenge, but it is good to approach it in the spirit of welcoming a two-way discourse; one would think that listening to others' views, thinking through their arguments and offering, where appropriate, something that may add depth or context to a topic should be the aim of this.
Dotnet has been a robust forum for more than 20 years and there have been some tremendously stimulating debates over that time. There have been some bummers too, but that's to be expected.
Most of my work over 40+ years was subject to peer review, so I am extremely comfortable when handling criticism. With this in mind, richie, I will continue to enjoy seeing you exercise your right to say what you do, despite the fact that all too often I consider a lot of it to be misguided nonsense.
:)
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Topic Originator: richie5401
Date: Sat 11 May 15:01
Yes.It would stop tomorrow though if there was a will from the Palestinian side.History unfortunately says that's very unlikely to happen.
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Topic Originator: onandupthepars
Date: Sat 11 May 15:09
As you agree the Israelis are using terrorism to defend their nation (posted 13:28 above), aren't the Palestinians doing the same?
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Topic Originator: richie5401
Date: Sat 11 May 15:10
I would agree with nearly all of that OZ;)
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Topic Originator: onandupthepars
Date: Sat 11 May 15:10
And what puzzles me is - if both sides are simply defending themselves - i.e. neither intends to invade the other - then what's to stop either side taking the initiative and laying down their arms?
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Topic Originator: richie5401
Date: Sat 11 May 15:13
Nope..The Palestinians want to destroy Israel.Israel at every turn want peace and have made many attempts at placating their aggressors.No dice.
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Topic Originator: onandupthepars
Date: Sat 11 May 15:15
<<< Do you really believe if Palestinians laid down there weapons Israel would attack? >>>
And vice versa?
I guess something prevents it from being that simple. What?
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Topic Originator: richie5401
Date: Sat 11 May 15:16
OAUTP--you need to read the history of the region...even if you don't want to read way back over the history read from the Ottaman empire's defeat in WW1.
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Topic Originator: onandupthepars
Date: Sat 11 May 15:17
OK you just answered my last question, Rich. But why do Palestinians want to destroy Israel?
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Topic Originator: onandupthepars
Date: Sat 11 May 15:18
We got out of sync there, Rich. But would it be too difficult to sum up in a post? If they do - why do Palestinians want to destroy Israel?
Post Edited (Sat 11 May 15:21)
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Topic Originator: richie5401
Date: Sat 11 May 15:21
The full history starts with Abraham.
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Topic Originator: OzPar
Date: Sat 11 May 15:24
LOL! We'll be here all night...
:)
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Topic Originator: richie5401
Date: Sat 11 May 15:25
Not too difficult start in Genesis 16.
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Topic Originator: onandupthepars
Date: Sat 11 May 15:26
Oh. I thought it's all based on the creation of the Israeli state by the Allies in what was Palestine?
Post Edited (Sat 11 May 15:26)
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Topic Originator: richie5401
Date: Sat 11 May 15:26
Right OZ...bring back the fitba'
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Topic Originator: onandupthepars
Date: Sat 11 May 15:32
Don't you think an issue like this deserves to be explained on dotnet? If possible, in fairly simple terms for your average dotnetter eg me?
You seemed to suggest, Oz, that you'd be all for informative posts of that kind.
Or would it just become a free for all mud-slinging contest?
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Topic Originator: Jbob
Date: Sat 11 May 15:42
well done Richie you got the thread away from shapiro
Bobs of the world unite
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Topic Originator: richie5401
Date: Sat 11 May 15:55
13:22...Oz gave it a slightly different turn.
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Topic Originator: OzPar
Date: Sat 11 May 16:09
Not quite onandup, I was expressing amusement at the thought of readers having to riffle through The Bible to catch up on the history of this. That might take some time.
Of course, it is a series subject; I was just trying to lighten the tone.
:)
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Topic Originator: sammer
Date: Sat 11 May 17:02
I’ve never cared much for Andrew Neill’s politics or his calamitous editorship of the Scotsman newspaper, but he has always seemed to be an effective political interviewer. Shapiro has more or less admitted subsequently that he performed poorly under questioning.
As regards the Palestinian problem, I’ve always been aware of the double standards that are afforded the Israeli state. Last week here in Moscow there was Victory Day which celebrates the events of WW2. In order to ensure that 27 million Russians would never again have to give up their lives Stalin grabbed as much territory as he could to protect his borders and controlled the politics within places like Czechoslovakia and Poland by putting his own men in charge. He simply did not trust Europe not to attack him again. He was, and still is, roundly condemned in Europe for having done this. Gorbachev was praised to the skies in Europe when he abandoned Stalin’s policy, but is hated by many in Russia for disrespecting the sacrifice made by Red Army soldiers.
In a similar fashion the Israeli state was eventually established to ensure that 6 million Jewish people would never again have to give up their lives. Since then the Israeli state has grabbed as much territory as it can for, with justification, Jewish people do not trust that anyone will save them from attack bar themselves. Look at a map of 1948 Palestine and compare it with today’s, for confirmation. Yet this action, very much in line with Stalin’s, is treated very sympathetically in the European and American media.
As for the Bible being an arbiter of territorial disputes, I hope for Richie’s sake the Native Americans don’t discover one. As a nomadic people they would have had a great oral tradition but left little in the way of written text. But if some ancient text emerges guaranteeing a pact with the Native American peoples, their God, and the land, then they might start leaving the reservations and come knocking on Richie’s door to claim back what is theirs.
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Topic Originator: richie5401
Date: Sat 11 May 17:42
[Post Deleted] - Reported as abusive
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Topic Originator: sammer
Date: Sat 11 May 22:46
I'm not sure why Richie's response to me has been deleted. It was hardly Danny Baker category.
He referred to the casinos that have been allowed to be franchised within Native American reservations in order to generate money. They are an abomination probably to him as much as me, he being a Christian and me a Communist, but he did not so far as I could see, show any disrespect to Native Americans. I read it more as a cynical policy by capitalist USA to keep the Native Americans happy.
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Topic Originator: richie5401
Date: Sun 12 May 00:28
Thanks Sammer...that was exactly my view.
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Topic Originator: Rastapari
Date: Sun 12 May 09:58
Quote:
richie5401, Sat 11 May 13:28
"wipe out"...it's called defending your nation.
Do you really believe if Palestinians laid down there weapons Israel would attack?Please.
So what weapins are to be found in the schools and libraries bombed this week you Isreal bootlicking monster?
You're are a dangerous extremist, how long until ypu grab a gun because you're imaginary friend told you to?
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Topic Originator: Mario
Date: Sun 12 May 12:00
He widnae be walkin’ back to happiness after that grilling...!
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Topic Originator: richie5401
Date: Sun 12 May 13:10
Check your History Rasta.there is only one side making any conciliation.It's been re-buffed on every occasion.
Palestinians are not shy what they want.The land back and death to all Jews.
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Topic Originator: onandupthepars
Date: Sun 12 May 13:17
"Conciliation." An occupying force offering conciliation. If America was occupied by a foreign power do you think America would settle for that? I don't think many peoples would settle for less than an end to occupation. It's obvious isn't it?
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Topic Originator: richie5401
Date: Sun 12 May 13:21
You obviously didn't take my advice and read the history of the region.
anyway..i'm out...some folks are way too bitter to even begin a conversation.
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Topic Originator: Rastapari
Date: Sun 12 May 13:44
Quote:
richie5401, Sun 12 May 13:10
Check your History Rasta.there is only one side making any conciliation.It's been re-buffed on every occasion.
Palestinians are not shy what they want.The land back and death to all Jews.
And why not, Israel is attempting genocide, are they to just sit there and die like good little brown people?
You're a sick puppy.
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Topic Originator: onandupthepars
Date: Sun 12 May 13:50
Hey Rich - it's true you take a lot of sh*t on this forum, but I'm still trying to converse. Come on, we've had some glorious discussions you and I and never fallen out yet.
Isn't that so?
No I haven't read about the history of the region, but as is clear from my "Israel v Palestine made simple" thread, I did some research.
I agree with you there's far too much bitterness and indignation on these forums.
We all get het up sometimes. We all should pause and have a coffee or cup of tea and a Snickers bar before we click on "post".
Post Edited (Sun 12 May 14:12)
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Topic Originator: onandupthepars
Date: Sun 12 May 14:06
Don't know why you're going on like that Rasta. You won't get anywhere by being nasty.
I read once that people making protest works of art can be self-defeating by offending and intimidating the very people they need to get on their side.
I'm not suggesting that Richie would ever change sides over this but by being civil at least we might understand the real world more - yes Richie is as much the real world as any of us.
Can we have more of your eloquent best please Rasta, not your accusing worst.
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Topic Originator: hurricane_jimmy
Date: Sun 12 May 14:46
Have to agree with Rasta here. Evangelicals like Richie are equally as dangerous as the Zionists and Islamists.
Given their way there would be massive regression in terms of Women's and Gay equality as religious bodies always try to get their hands in on law-making. For all that Christians claim to be righteous and good, their views are remarkably similar to a religion they profess to be dangerous.
As for the Israelis and Palestinians, both sides have blood on their hands. The Israelis went into Palestine and did exactly as the Nazis did in the 40s - took land that wasn't theirs. Why do some try to condemn the Palestinians resisting but then praise the likes of the French or Dutch resistance? Same thing.
I also always enjoy when Americans try and peddle the myth that there is a Jewish ethnicity and then seeing the penny drop when you mention the Ethiopian Jews saved during Operation Solomon. There's a helluva lot of American money poured into media to support Israel and Zionism generally. I do wonder if the Americans see Israel as a foothold for when they eventually have to go and "deal with" the Middle East.
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Topic Originator: onandupthepars
Date: Sun 12 May 14:50
Hey Rasta, hope you're not having a rotten day. Let's all have some o' this:
or this:
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Topic Originator: onandupthepars
Date: Sun 12 May 15:28
Ref: richie5401
Date: Sun 12 May 13:10
<<< Palestinians are not shy what they want.The land back and death to all Jews. >>>
Where d'you hear or read the death to all Jews idea? Is it on e.g.a Hamas website?
I think it's important not to lump all Palestinians together as if they all think the same.
I'm inclined to think what Palestinians overall would accept would be close to what Dr Eid outlines, as I posted on my thread, "Israel v Palestine made simple":
Ref: onandupthepars
Date: Sat 11 May 18:55
<<< What do the Palestinian people want?
Quote:
1. An end to Israeli occupation of Arab lands occupied in 1967.
2. An end to Israel's colonisation and apartheid targeting the indigenous population of Palestine since 1948.
3. The return of Palestinian refugees who were ethnically cleansed when Israel was created in their land.
by Dr Haidar Eid, "Associate Professor... at Al-Aqsa University, Gaza Strip, Palestine. He doesn't care for the agreement between Israel and the PLO, and wants a "rights-based approach" to a solution. >>>
and it should be said, independence from Israel.
As for ALL Palestinians or Palestinians generally wanting death to all Jews - without evidence - I don't believe it. No. Can you give some supporting evidence or if not, would you be willing to rethink that idea Rich?
Post Edited (Sun 12 May 15:30)
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Topic Originator: moviescot
Date: Sun 12 May 15:33
I'm with Rasta. Anyone who can make Richie leave a forum deserves respect
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Topic Originator: onandupthepars
Date: Sun 12 May 15:38
I think Rich is pretty interesting because he tells you about something you don't already know - a completely different viewpoint.
I thought inclusion was a good thing, and that exclusion can be bad.
We live in a free-speech society.
When we disagree with someone I think it's a good idea to give an intelligent response saying why we disagree rather than the one finger salute.
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Topic Originator: moviescot
Date: Sun 12 May 16:27
Quote:
onandupthepars, Sun 12 May 15:38
I think Rich is pretty interesting because he tells you about something you don't already know - a completely different viewpoint.
I thought inclusion was a good thing, and that exclusion can be bad.
We live in a free-speech society.
When we disagree with someone I think it's a good idea to give an intelligent response saying why we disagree rather than the one finger salute.
Really. The only thing with Richie is that he has intransigent views. He does not listen to rational argument and from my experience with him, he never admits he could be wrong. He is the master of deflection.
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Topic Originator: onandupthepars
Date: Sun 12 May 16:40
But there's always the right to reply Movie. Anything you disagree with gives you the opportunity, through your response, to question things and shine a light on what you believe to be right.
Post Edited (Sun 12 May 16:41)
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Topic Originator: moviescot
Date: Sun 12 May 17:03
Quote:
onandupthepars, Sun 12 May 16:40
But there's always the right to reply Movie. Anything you disagree with gives you the opportunity, through your response, to question things and shine a light on what you believe to be right.
Yes. I always used to reply but as I say Richie is always right. I'm happy to have my view challenged and/or changed. Richie is always right even when everyone else on the forum disagrees
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Topic Originator: onandupthepars
Date: Sun 12 May 17:07
I think if you disagree with a poster's view, the important thing is to try and counter it by giving yours, for the benefit of the readers and to clarify it to yourself.
When someone says Palestinians want death to all Jews, I think it's important to question it as I did (13:10 above) and not just call the poster names.
I think there's too much stuff like that passes through without comment. Richie might and might not respond. I'm curious to know why he said such a thing. Did he see it on Youtube or a website? or a forum? It reminds me of something I saw on TV. A ten year old Jewish boy said something like, Abraham? promised us this land and we will kill everybody if necessary till we get it. Now that didn't make me think all Jews are like that.
But is that what happened with Richie - he's been reading anti-Israeli propoganda put out by some people and he generalises it, wrongly, to all Palestinians. How can that be put right? At least I'm trying by questioning it. And if Richie ignores me, at least others can see what I'm saying about it.
Post Edited (Sun 12 May 17:09)
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Topic Originator: sammer
Date: Sun 12 May 17:40
No, Richie never admits he might be wrong. But when he is backed into a corner and starts quoting from the Bible I normally take that as an acknowledgment of defeat.
For most of my adult life I assumed that US unconditional support for Israel was a political tactic. It gave the USA a guaranteed military base from which to control Middle East oil reserves, and also delivered an important voting bloc within New York State. However it seems that the Christian Zionism espoused by Richie has a fairly long history, traceable back to the Puritans at the time of the British civil war. Some of the strongest voices in favour of a Jewish state in Palestine have come from Scottish religious figures, a number of whom sided with the ‘Wee Frees’ at the time of the split within Scottish Presbyterianism in the mid 19th century. I have tended to see Richie as part of the biblical literalism that flourishes in the bible belt of the USA, but in fact he is probably part of a much longer Scottish tradition.
I think the main idea behind Christian Zionism is that by returning the Jews to their homeland, the will of God is thus respected, and in return Christian values shall consequently be adopted across the world. Bush and Blair seemed to talk this sort of language when they got together, but it was never clear whether they were religious fanatics or simply power mongers hiding behind a veil of convenience.
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Topic Originator: moviescot
Date: Sun 12 May 18:35
Quote:
sammer, Sun 12 May 17:40
No, Richie never admits he might be wrong. But when he is backed into a corner and starts quoting from the Bible I normally take that as an acknowledgment of defeat.
^^this. Absolutely this. In virtually every instance.,
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Topic Originator: moviescot
Date: Sun 12 May 18:37
Quote:
onandupthepars, Sun 12 May 17:07
I think if you disagree with a poster's view, the important thing is to try and counter it by giving yours, for the benefit of the readers and to clarify it to yourself.
When someone says Palestinians want death to all Jews, I think it's important to question it as I did (13:10 above) and not just call the poster names.
I think there's too much stuff like that passes through without comment. Richie might and might not respond. I'm curious to know why he said such a thing. Did he see it on Youtube or a website? or a forum? It reminds me of something I saw on TV. A ten year old Jewish boy said something like, Abraham? promised us this land and we will kill everybody if necessary till we get it. Now that didn't make me think all Jews are like that.
But is that what happened with Richie - he's been reading anti-Israeli propoganda put out by some people and he generalises it, wrongly, to all Palestinians. How can that be put right? At least I'm trying by questioning it. And if Richie ignores me, at least others can see what I'm saying about it.
You keep trying. I think most people on here have tried to debate sensibly with Richie for years. Let's see if you can make anymore progress than everyone else.
Good luck.
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Topic Originator: sadindiefreak
Date: Sun 12 May 19:07
Quote:
sammer, Sun 12 May 17:40
I think the main idea behind Christian Zionism is that by returning the Jews to their homeland, the will of God is thus respected, and in return Christian values shall consequently be adopted across the world.
It's way more sinister than that.
They believe it is fulfilling prophecy and a huge conflict there will bring about armageddon and the second coming of Jesus.
They are actively trying to end the world.
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Topic Originator: sammer
Date: Sun 12 May 19:26
Sounds like the kind of 'death cult' religion Tommy Robinson gets excited about.
I'm guessing that would be an extreme view within Zionism, but one that seems to have a certain amount of empathy from politicians in high office within the USA.
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Topic Originator: sadindiefreak
Date: Sun 12 May 19:37
Quote:
sammer, Sun 12 May 19:26
Sounds like the kind of 'death cult' religion Tommy Robinson gets excited about.
I'm guessing that would be an extreme view within Zionism, but one that seems to have a certain amount of empathy from politicians in high office within the USA.
Not Zionism but Evangelical Christians and it's not extreme but pretty standard.
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Topic Originator: onandupthepars
Date: Sun 12 May 19:45
Ref: sadindiefreak
Date: Sun 12 May 19:07
<<< They are actively trying to end the world. >>>
I've been reading "Christian Zionism" on wiki. I don't see anything about them wanting to bring about the end of the world.
Not saying they don't - after all, there's a lot o' bad things going on in the world about which people don't just reveal all.
Post Edited (Sun 12 May 19:46)
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Topic Originator: onandupthepars
Date: Sun 12 May 21:47
Thanks Sadindie, I would read it but is it (- it appears to be -) necessary to subscribe to get access to the article?
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Topic Originator: onandupthepars
Date: Sun 12 May 22:55
I've read the article. I think it's a ploy by Trump to keep the evangelicals' votes. I imagine him saying - "if the Middle East becomes de-stabilized we'll deal with that if and when it comes, just so long as we get those votes."
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Topic Originator: onandupthepars
Date: Sat 18 May 11:10
Well Boston, if you look back, it appears the last straw for Rich might have been me!
Ref: onandupthepars
Date: Sun 12 May 13:17
<<< "Conciliation." An occupying force offering conciliation. If America was occupied by a foreign power do you think America would settle for that? I don't think many peoples would settle for less than an end to occupation. It's obvious isn't it? >>
<<<Ref: richie5401
Date: Sun 12 May 13:21
You obviously didn't take my advice and read the history of the region.
anyway..i'm out...some folks are way too bitter to even begin a conversation..>>
Did he take wild offence at my using America to try and bring the point closer to home for him? Mis-read my plain English as a sneer? If he is that precious about anyone using the word "America" I begin to wonder.
To my own cost I sometimes make the mistake of thinking people are more even-handed and understanding than they really are.
Shrug of shoulders. C'est la vie.
Post Edited (Sat 18 May 11:11)
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