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Topic Originator: GG Riva
Date: Tue 28 May 14:22
Before the 2016 Referendum, around 550 MPs said they believed the UK's interests would be better served if it remained in the EU, but we had the Referendum anyway. I understand that was because David Cameron had promised the electorate one, to stop Tory voters defecting to UKIP at the 2014 GE.
So the majority of people who voted, voted for Brexit and democracy means we must obey the will of the people. Fair enough. So now we're in a situation where a significant majority of MPs believe that leaving the EU without a deal in place would be a disaster for the UK and bring unprecedented chaos and pain to its inhabitants.
So why are we likely to end up with a PM who is ready to leave without a deal?
Here's a link to an article which articulates my bewilderment very well.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/may/28/remainers-eu-elections-second-brexit-referendum
Not your average Sunday League player.
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Topic Originator: Rastapari
Date: Tue 28 May 16:54
The easy answer is because a great many people still think their vote actually counts....money and who is making it will be the deciding factor in what happens the rest is just window dressing.
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Topic Originator: sammer
Date: Tue 28 May 17:32
The crash-out option was effectively defeated in a parliamentary vote a few months back, so short of a General Election it is dead duck. Any prospective Tory leader knows this, although he or she may shout a few slogans on the hustings to keep Faragists at bay.
Crash-out is a minority view amongst Conservative MPs and also, so far as we can gauge, amongst Conservative voters as well. However, crash-out may be a majority view within the Conservative membership, which is why many opponents of Toryism are licking their lips in anticipation of a lunatic appointment that will destroy the party as a credible electable force for the next generation.
The most likely options left are a variation on the May deal, sugar-coated enough to entice Brexiteers and the DUP, and sold as a miracle cure for that long-standing disease brexitosis by a leader who tells him it is either this or the other option: a second ballot. May was trying to explain this to her party back in March but they are notoriously slow learners.
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Topic Originator: Tenruh
Date: Tue 28 May 17:34
I find it odd how the working classes are suckered by the money men.
Still remember the crowd in Middlesbrough celebrating when the brexit result was announced that night, you'd think with the type of work in the area it would have been pro EU.
Post Edited (Tue 28 May 17:35)
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Topic Originator: ipswichpar
Date: Tue 28 May 17:45
And Wales and the south West......unfortunately there are several million people who are only going to find out the hard way that they have destroyed a status quo that was serving them well, in my opinion.
I might have a little respect for Farage and his mob if they didn't take money off the very institution that he wants destroyed.
Just wish there was a credible Labour leader in place. Whichever way this lands I fear losers will substantially outweigh winners.
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Topic Originator: LochgellyAlbert
Date: Tue 28 May 17:58
Irish border is still the problem and until a solution comes up for it Brexit won't happen.
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Topic Originator: moviescot
Date: Tue 28 May 18:57
Quote:
ipswichpar, Tue 28 May 17:45
And Wales and the south West......unfortunately there are several million people who are only going to find out the hard way that they have destroyed a status quo that was serving them well, in my opinion.
I might have a little respect for Farage and his mob if they didn't take money off the very institution that he wants destroyed.
Just wish there was a credible Labour leader in place. Whichever way this lands I fear losers will substantially outweigh winners.
Do the Welsh even realise how much EU money is pumped into their country? They should because it's on all the signs. Funded by the EU. Think Westminster or the Welsh assembly will be able to match? Highly unlikely.
There was a soundbite on one of the channels months ago. They went to a leave heartland in Wales. They asked punters why they thought Wales had voted leave. Most of the people did it was to do with all the money we send to Brussels and the other main reason was to get back sovereignty.
The reporter took great delight in walking then up the high street and pointing out the several EU funded projects. They were all surprised.
You really can't make it up.
Post Edited (Tue 28 May 18:58)
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Topic Originator: parbucks
Date: Tue 28 May 19:28
The EU has no money. It’s ours and that from other contributing countries that is redistributed. Instead of £10bn net finding its way back here it could be £20bn that we prioritise how to spend.
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Topic Originator: Tenruh
Date: Tue 28 May 19:55
Rather trust the EU to distribute the £10bn than a Tory government the £20bn
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Topic Originator: sadindiefreak
Date: Tue 28 May 20:15
Any money gained from leaving the EU will find it's way into tax cuts for the rich.
No way will funding for communities or projects currently coming from the EU be matched.
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Topic Originator: ipswichpar
Date: Tue 28 May 20:16
Quote:
parbucks, Tue 28 May 19:28
The EU has no money. It’s ours and that from other contributing countries that is redistributed. Instead of £10bn net finding its way back here it could be £20bn that we prioritise how to spend.
A year?
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Topic Originator: moviescot
Date: Tue 28 May 20:30
Quote:
parbucks, Tue 28 May 19:28
The EU has no money. It’s ours and that from other contributing countries that is redistributed. Instead of £10bn net finding its way back here it could be £20bn that we prioritise how to spend.
Never going to happen. The money we currently send to EU will magically "disappear". It will never be put into the projects that EU invest in.
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Topic Originator: Wotsit
Date: Tue 28 May 20:31
The EU has no money. It’s ours and that from other contributing countries that is redistributed. Instead of £10bn net finding its way back here it could be £20bn that we prioritise how to spend.
By that logic the UK has no money either since it's mine and form other taxpayers.
I have no desire to prioritise how I spend my tax money myself tbh, I'd just spend it on drugs and high living then have nothing left over for the doctor when I'm sick.
Wait...
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Topic Originator: parbucks
Date: Tue 28 May 21:08
You know how it’s prioritised twice a year at the Budget statements.
When do you ever know how the EU intends to spend our money?
Blair gave up half the rebate Thatcher demanded/negotiated on the “promise” of CAP reform which takes up about half the total EU budget.
What happened? Take a guess.
The EU is a sclerotic bureaucracy that sucks the blood out of countries. It’s accounts have not been signed off by the auditors for almost 30 years because they can’t trace where all the money goes.
Post Edited (Tue 28 May 21:15)
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Topic Originator: Wotsit
Date: Tue 28 May 21:15
What happened? Take a guess.
A politician lied.
What do I win?
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Topic Originator: moviescot
Date: Tue 28 May 21:30
Quote:
parbucks, Tue 28 May 21:08
You know how it’s prioritised twice a year at the Budget statements.
When do you ever know how the EU intends to spend our money?
Blair gave up half the rebate Thatcher demanded/negotiated on the “promise” of CAP reform which takes up about half the total EU budget.
What happened? Take a guess.
The EU is a sclerotic bureaucracy that sucks the blood out of countries. It’s accounts have not been signed off by the auditors for almost 30 years because they can’t trace where all the money goes.
Hey. A lot of it went to Wales and remote areas in Scotland.....🤣🤣🤣🤣
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Topic Originator: parbucks
Date: Tue 28 May 21:52
I guess they will be singing and dancing in the valleys and glens at getting their own money back. Well 50% of it.
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Topic Originator: moviescot
Date: Tue 28 May 22:07
Quote:
parbucks, Tue 28 May 21:52
I guess they will be singing and dancing in the valleys and glens at getting their own money back. Well 50% of it.
Have you actually checked this? I can guarantee you that Wales has had more money from the EU than they have contributed. The last time I checked they had had £2 spent for every £1 contribution. It may even have risen since then
That's the way the EU grants work. It goes to remote areas. Now if you look at London, they have actually lost out in EU contributions. Strangely though of course London voted remain. Go figure.
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Topic Originator: londonparsfan
Date: Tue 28 May 22:18
And they wont be getting any money back Westminster will be in control of it.
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Topic Originator: parbucks
Date: Tue 28 May 22:36
“House of Commons Library
Public spending by country and region
Published Wednesday, November 28, 2018
This note provides information on levels of public spending per head in the countries and regions of the UK.
Jump to full report >>
In 2017/18, public spending per person in the UK as a whole was £9,350. In England, it was £9,080 (3% below the UK average). This compares with:
Scotland: £10,881 (16% above the UK average)
Wales: £10,397 (11% above the UK average)
Northern Ireland £11,190 (20% above the UK average).”
Well I guess some parts of the U.K. deserve to get further hand outs of our own money from the EU.
“You just can’t get enough”.
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Topic Originator: sammer
Date: Tue 28 May 22:39
It’s what the Brexiters don’t say that interests me. For I think it reveals their acknowledgment that no real Brexit will ever take place, and they are now sobering up from their surprise victory three years ago. They are begging for compromise.
First of all, why no return to imperial measurement? The British people have defied the metric system in their everyday language for nearly 50 years and still measure people in feet and inches and long range shots at football in yards. We still drink in pints, as Mr. Farage will know, so why was not this declared at the outset as a true break from Europe? Recall the Maths books and impose a true British education.
Secondly why no promised referendum on capital punishment? This idea has always enjoyed support from around at least 50% of the population, and if hanging were re-introduced to target ‘terrorists’ and ‘paedophiles’ would, in theory, prove popular. Except once it got into full swing, so to speak.
Thirdly, why not claim that Brexit will save the local shops, like Marks and Spencer, and the local pub and post office? The local football team perhaps? The local hospital?
For obvious reasons Brexit recognises that cannot deliver either in its cultural promises nor its economic ones, since the support is not there either from the people or the business sector. Brexit has been a massive distraction from politics for the last three years and for that reason alone will be seen as a great achievement in the Establishment writing of history in the years to come. Farage may come to be seen as the heroic martyr of sustaining austerity politics and yet get his knighthood, as many anti-establishment rebels have done in the past.
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Topic Originator: sammer
Date: Tue 28 May 22:51
Parbucks,
Your figures, based on London economics, only highlight the problem. Scotland is an under populated country (or region as you may prefer) within the EU.
When we amalgamated the parliaments the population of England was around 3x that of Scotland; it is now nearer 9x. It's obvious if you have more concentration of people and industrial investment you will have more money. A child could understand that without needing to quote government figures. The population of Scotland would probably be nearer 12 million if it had developed along the lines of capital investment in England. That never happened since out ruling class educate their children, future politicians, future bankers and future military leaders at Eton and Sandhurst.
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Topic Originator: moviescot
Date: Tue 28 May 22:52
Quote:
parbucks, Tue 28 May 22:36
“House of Commons Library
Public spending by country and region
Published Wednesday, November 28, 2018
This note provides information on levels of public spending per head in the countries and regions of the UK.
Jump to full report >>
In 2017/18, public spending per person in the UK as a whole was £9,350. In England, it was £9,080 (3% below the UK average). This compares with:
Scotland: £10,881 (16% above the UK average)
Wales: £10,397 (11% above the UK average)
Northern Ireland £11,190 (20% above the UK average).”
Well I guess some parts of the U.K. deserve to get further hand outs of our own money from the EU.
“You just can’t get enough”.
That's just it though isn't it. They are in a large pool and hey money back from the EU that if Westminster controlled it they would never see. I think for Wales, Scotland, N I and some areas of England getting back more than you pay in to a pot is a great deal. Yes there are areas such as London which actually end up subsidising this.
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Topic Originator: Mario
Date: Tue 28 May 23:23
So Sammer, where would this additional seven million people be situated, housed, work, etc.
What utter piffle.
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Topic Originator: sammer
Date: Wed 29 May 02:31
Come on Mario,
You can look at a map of Europe as easily as I can and see that Scotland has plenty of space. The issue has been a lack of developing the country outside of what we call the central belt.
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Topic Originator: sammer
Date: Wed 29 May 02:52
Some statistics might help. Density of population for the UK, persons per km square as of 2017.
England 427
Wales 148
Northern Ireland 133
Scotland 65
For a country which industrialised early, was part of a prosperous empire, has not been invaded for centuries and suffered no plague or famine, that Scottish figure is remarkably low.
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Topic Originator: Mario
Date: Wed 29 May 08:01
Don’t mention the prosperous Empire or the Scots who played a part in building it while filling their own sporrans.
We were and still are a downtrodden colony aren’t we?
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Topic Originator: Captain Desmond Fancey
Date: Wed 29 May 08:55
"You can look at a map of Europe as easily as I can and see that Scotland has plenty of space."
Much of which is fairly uninhabitable. Besides, even if we did fill the "space" how do you bring our infrastructure up to date to cope with the increased numbers ? We're buckling as it is.
The good old days
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Topic Originator: londonparsfan
Date: Wed 29 May 09:09
To be fair we just completed what was the largest infrastructure project in Europe at the time not so long ago.
I wouldn't say Scotland is buckling but some services are struggling. You wont be surprised to learn that I blame central Government for austerity and budget cuts for that.
Investing in infrastructure more often than not also provides an economic benefit and the UK has some of the cheapest access to debt it's ever had so the obvious way to invest in infrastructure would be through borrowing.
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Topic Originator: Mario
Date: Wed 29 May 09:48
12 Million population would entail a concrete jungle from the Tweed to the Highland line.
The perfectly simple reason for the density of the SE is centuries of trade growth with the benefit of a tidal river and close proximity to the continent. Well, my theory anyway.
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Topic Originator: Mario
Date: Wed 29 May 10:04
If the British Isles Mainland was rotated 90 degrees in a clockwise direction, the Clyde would have been....oh well, just the way the cookie crumbles.
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Topic Originator: Mario
Date: Wed 29 May 10:28
Or 180 degrees even. Been a while.
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Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks
Date: Wed 29 May 10:29
Typical of Scottish education pre 2007.
And although my eyes were open
They just might as well be closed
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Topic Originator: sammer
Date: Wed 29 May 12:33
A cursory glimpse at the population density figures would tell you that Scotland could double its population and still be less populated than even Wales, still far below the average levels in mainland Europe. I drove through Snowdonia last year and saw very little tarmac. So no concrete jungle from the Tweed to the Highlands, in fact you would still be able to do some grouse beating when your lords and masters pop up in August.
As for being uninhabitable, well that’s a feeble excuse to offer someone like myself who works in Moscow, on the same latitude as Aberdeen. One of the great contradictions in our politics is that all these enthusiasts for Thatcherism and the ‘can do’ philosophy of American culture become excuse mongers and dismal jimmies the minute any suggestion for developing Scotland is put forward.
Not just Scotland to be fair. Fifteen years ago I worked in a large Chinese city with no metro system. Now it, along with others, has a system to rival Tokyo or Moscow. Meanwhile, back in the UK, we are still debating the H2S rail system and another runway for Heathrow, debates which seem to have gone on as long as it took the Chinese to actually build something.
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Topic Originator: Mario
Date: Wed 29 May 12:58
Excuse me TOWK, back in the day you had to do mental arithmetic in yer heid....
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Topic Originator: GG Riva
Date: Wed 29 May 13:55
Anyway, back on topic.......
I'm delighted to see that the bookies favourite to become our next PM, the jovial, charismatic buffoon himself, has now been ordered to appear in court, over his involvement in misleading the British public during the Brexit Referendum campaign.
If found guilty, he could be sent to jail. I can't see it though. Notoriously, Italian politicians act with impunity, knowing they'll never go to prison. I'd like to think the UK is different but I'm not holding my breath.....
Not your average Sunday League player.
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Topic Originator: parbucks
Date: Wed 29 May 14:04
Allegation of “misconduct in public office”.
Can think of a few politicians that could apply to:
Blair(Iraq), Brown ( boom & bust), Cameron ( Project fear), Lord Steel(Cyril Smith), Salmond (oh dear).......
Post Edited (Wed 29 May 14:16)
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Topic Originator: GG Riva
Date: Wed 29 May 14:40
Quote:
parbucks, Wed 29 May 14:04
Allegation of “misconduct in public office”.
Can think of a few politicians that could apply to:
Blair(Iraq), Brown ( boom & bust), Cameron ( Project fear), Lord Steel(Cyril Smith), Salmond (oh dear).......
Yes indeed, Parbucks, but how many wrongs make a right, pray tell?
Not your average Sunday League player.
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Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks
Date: Wed 29 May 15:13
Parbucks when you say Cameron and project fear I assume you mean the project fear in regards to the indy referendum?
And although my eyes were open
They just might as well be closed
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Topic Originator: wee eck
Date: Wed 29 May 15:17
Alistair Carmichael admitted he lied about his role in the leak of a false memo designed to discredit Nicola Sturgeon during the 2015 General Election. Four constituents tried to get him unseated by lodging an election petition against him. Although the case was found not proven legal costs of £150,000 were awarded against him. I think there's a fine line between the sort of exaggerated claims that tend to be made in the course of political campaigns and false denials of the truth as exemplified by Carmichael's statement.
The declaration on the bus would appear to be an outright lie which was even exposed at the time but truth seems to be a very elusive concept now as evidenced by the behaviour of Donald Trump and others.
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