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Topic Originator: Berkey
Date: Mon 5 Aug 13:53
Presumably all the current arguments for brexit also apply to Scottish independence or is one rule for one...
Never mind brexit, just Boris is enough to top most Scots over the edge.
The more they refuse to entertain a section 30 order the more it plays into the nats hands. If there is a GE called in the next month or 2 and the snp win comfortable with another ref in manifesto that sounds like a pretty convincing mandate to me.
Back to being drenched in my own negativity….
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Topic Originator: parbucks
Date: Mon 5 Aug 16:56
So Sturgeon thinks this recent poll of 52/48% in favour of another Scottish referendum is “phenomenal”. Poll sample size 1,019.
Funny, but no surprise, that she won’t accept the 52/48 % result in the EU referendum. Largest vote in U.K. history, 33.5 million.
Post Edited (Mon 05 Aug 16:59)
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Topic Originator: Tenruh
Date: Mon 5 Aug 17:48
Quote:
parbucks, Mon 5 Aug 16:56
So Sturgeon thinks this recent poll of 52/48% in favour of another Scottish referendum is “phenomenal”. Poll sample size 1,019.
Funny, but no surprise, that she won’t accept the 52/48 % result in the EU referendum. Largest vote in U.K. history, 33.5 million.
Sturgeon represents Scotland which voted 62% to remain in the EU.
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Topic Originator: wee eck
Date: Mon 5 Aug 18:06
Most samples taken of political opinion are around 1,000. Increasing the sample size above that doesn't have a significant effect on results apparently.
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Topic Originator: parbucks
Date: Mon 5 Aug 19:25
If that’s the case why do polls differ depending on the political bias of the pollsters?
Why were most wrong about calling the EU result?
There is a silent majority that don’t conform to pollsters questions.
Post Edited (Mon 05 Aug 19:27)
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Topic Originator: desparado
Date: Mon 5 Aug 19:34
No appetite for another independence referendum.......lol
Peak SNP ...lol
Ruth the Mooth the saviour of the Union ..lol
The Labour Party in Scotland..lol
Jo Swinson.....my side are aching listening to her waffling utter nonsense...
The closer we get to Brexit the more the polls will shift in favour of independence.
This poll did not count 16-17 years olds or EU citizens so we are looking closer to 55% in reality.
Every time Boris opens his mouth will had more to the Yes side and as far as our new colonial governor goes he is only going to help further the cause even more, a vile person.
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Topic Originator: parbucks
Date: Mon 5 Aug 19:38
Good luck if you put the future of the country in the hands of 16-17 year olds.
You mean the ones who can’t buy a packet of fags or legally drink alcohol.
These laws are there for a reason but I guess it depends on the outcome you want.
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Topic Originator: donj
Date: Mon 5 Aug 19:41
What amazes me is that the Tories are so keen to look after us and are prepared to support us.Such generous people they are I suppose.
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Topic Originator: jake89
Date: Mon 5 Aug 20:14
Quote:
parbucks, Mon 5 Aug 19:38
Good luck if you put the future of the country in the hands of 16-17 year olds.
You mean the ones who can’t buy a packet of fags or legally drink alcohol.
These laws are there for a reason but I guess it depends on the outcome you want.
Sorry, what has their ability to buy booze and fags got to do with anything? Does being able to legally destroy your health make you a better voter?
Post Edited (Mon 05 Aug 20:14)
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Topic Originator: jake89
Date: Mon 5 Aug 20:17
Quote:
desparado, Mon 5 Aug 19:34
No appetite for another independence referendum.......lol
Peak SNP ...lol
Ruth the Mooth the saviour of the Union ..lol
The Labour Party in Scotland..lol
Jo Swinson.....my side are aching listening to her waffling utter nonsense...
The closer we get to Brexit the more the polls will shift in favour of independence.
This poll did not count 16-17 years olds or EU citizens so we are looking closer to 55% in reality.
Every time Boris opens his mouth will had more to the Yes side and as far as our new colonial governor goes he is only going to help further the cause even more, a vile person.
And if you count all the people who will have suffered through the SNPs shocking approach to education then we're looking closer to 329%.
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Topic Originator: hurricane_jimmy
Date: Mon 5 Aug 20:36
Jake - you'll be hard pressed to call the SNP's approach to education "shocking" when you see the mess in England. I don't deny that the SNP tried to fix a system that by and largely wasn't broken with standard grades, but would you rather have schools in private hands and Trusts where 10% of the public funding is disappearing to pay executives ridiculous salaries rather than reaching kids? One I had personal experience of was Outwood Grange Trust who pay their chief exec £184k and he largely does hee haw. Oddly enough these trusts tend to be run by people who are serious donors to the Tories or Labour. Remember in England this is going on with the NHS as well.
That said, we do need to get a grip of Further Education and take away the focus of getting people into University to do largely pointless degrees. Trades and Digital skills are the things that need attention in Scotland and creating an attractive and educated workforce is the way to attract investment. Hopefully the Scottish Government show a bit more initiative than Westminster and look at other systems such as Australia's TAFE system or Sweden's Konvux system for inspiration on this.
As for the comment about 16 & 17 year olds: if you're old enough to pay tax then you're old enough and entitled to vote.
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Topic Originator: parbucks
Date: Mon 5 Aug 20:40
“Sorry, what has their ability to buy booze and fags got to do with anything? Does being able to legally destroy your health make you a better voter?”
Well it does say something about their decision making and level of maturity.
Most youths of that age are more into Xbox and Playstations than keeping informed about the political and economic issues of the day.
I say that with some level of experience with four grandchildren aged between 16-19. At 17 they are more interested in learning to drive than worrying about the politics of the day.
As a generalisation they don’t watch current affairs programmes or even the news. It’s more about social media.
Prove me wrong.
Post Edited (Mon 05 Aug 20:43)
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Topic Originator: parbucks
Date: Mon 5 Aug 20:55
“As for the comment about 16 & 17 year olds: if you're old enough to pay tax then you're old enough and entitled to vote.”
Aye and how many pay tax rather than being supported BY taxes?
Tax threshold to pay tax in 19/20 is above £12500. How many 16-17 year olds in that category
Someone living on another planet I’m afraid.
Let’s stick to facts.
Post Edited (Mon 05 Aug 21:01)
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Topic Originator: hurricane_jimmy
Date: Mon 5 Aug 20:59
And at what age were you fully independent of your parents?
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Topic Originator: londonparsfan
Date: Mon 5 Aug 21:08
Quote:
parbucks, Mon 5 Aug 16:56
So Sturgeon thinks this recent poll of 52/48% in favour of another Scottish referendum is “phenomenal”. Poll sample size 1,019.
Funny, but no surprise, that she won’t accept the 52/48 % result in the EU referendum. Largest vote in U.K. history, 33.5 million.
To be fair if someone doesnt agree with something they've got every right to oppose it. If Remain had won, Leave wouldn't have simply stopped campaigning to Leave. Farage even said so before the Brexit result was out:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36306681
As noted above she's representing Scotland and every single region in Scotland returned a Remain vote so yeah she should be fighting it.
Ironically in the undemocratic union that is the EU most foreign policy decisions need agreement from all Members of the EU.
In our super democratic Union 50% of the Members didn't vote Brexit that is now being forced on them.
The comments about 16/17 year olds is a bit ageist. There are plenty of intelligent youngsters out there and seeing as how they can pay tax and start a family which must be about the most responsible thing anyone can do, I think they can handle ticking a box to decide who can govern them.
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Topic Originator: parbucks
Date: Mon 5 Aug 21:14
“And at what age were you fully independent of your parents?”
What’s your point?
I was dependent on my parents until 22: 50+ years ago.
I trained and qualified as a Chartered Accountant.
I consider myself well educated under the old system when there was social mobility through academic streaming. As someone who grew up in the council estates of West Fife I am proud of my background. I didn’t have any of the support and counselling that today’s prodigies have.
Comprehensive education has been a retrograde step IMO.
Today’s 16-17 year olds have LESS maturity than we did. We had to make decisions our parents didn’t have the knowledge about and all the state support that exists today.
Yes I’m from a different generation but one whose values and ethics differ in the main from todays society.
Post Edited (Mon 05 Aug 21:21)
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Topic Originator: londonparsfan
Date: Mon 5 Aug 21:19
Every generation says the kids didn't have to do what they did.
There's some pretty decent arguments out there that the Baby Boomer generation have completely ballsed things up.
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Topic Originator: Swainy
Date: Mon 5 Aug 22:12
Quote:
parbucks, Mon 5 Aug 20:40
“Sorry, what has their ability to buy booze and fags got to do with anything? Does being able to legally destroy your health make you a better voter?”
Well it does say something about their decision making and level of maturity.
Most youths of that age are more into Xbox and Playstations than keeping informed about the political and economic issues of the day.
I say that with some level of experience with four grandchildren aged between 16-19. At 17 they are more interested in learning to drive than worrying about the politics of the day.
As a generalisation they don’t watch current affairs programmes or even the news. It’s more about social media.
Prove me wrong.
I believe, the majority of 16&17 year olds won't vote but the ones who do will be the ones who do keep up to date with the politics of day.
If you're old enough to pay tax you must be old enough to decide how that tax is spent and that's the bottom line for me.
D.A are the number one!
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Topic Originator: parbucks
Date: Mon 5 Aug 22:16
Surely the point is “how many pay tax?”
Post Edited (Mon 05 Aug 22:18)
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Topic Originator: donj
Date: Mon 5 Aug 22:32
Is this the new rule you have just made.Only paying tax to vote.
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Topic Originator: Andrew283
Date: Mon 5 Aug 22:35
'Today’s 16-17 year olds have LESS maturity than we did. We had to make decisions our parents didn’t have the knowledge about and all the state support that exists today.'
Well that's just a steaming pile of baby boomer pihs. You're seemingly so much more mature, that even given the wealth of knowledge and facts, you've still completely buggered the environment, ruined the global economy (Capitalism, eh) and been some of the most self-entitled mob that's graced this country.
I regularly speak with more politically tuned up under 30s than I do anyone over 50-60. That's where you tend to find the 'I've always voted for 'X'' or 'Brexit means Brexit' types
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Topic Originator: parbucks
Date: Mon 5 Aug 22:40
No. The discussion was about the eligibility/ credibility of 16-17 year olds to vote.
The argument was put forward that they paid taxes so they should be eligible.
Regardless of all that I maintain they are not mature or interested enough to make an informed decision.
Having said that so are many adults but you need a cut off point somewhere.
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Topic Originator: donj
Date: Mon 5 Aug 22:47
So the new rule is that,although they could vote in 2014,it looks like a lose now so you can't vote.
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Topic Originator: parbucks
Date: Mon 5 Aug 22:48
Post Edited (Mon 05 Aug 22:51)
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Topic Originator: parbucks
Date: Mon 5 Aug 22:48
Andrew
That’s a lot of pi&h and you should know it.
But never mind, just blame it on your view of capitalism and it’s impact.
Viva the revolution...when it comes! Meh.
Just ask those protesters in Hong Kong what they think.
Post Edited (Mon 05 Aug 22:50)
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Topic Originator: parbucks
Date: Mon 5 Aug 22:53
Nats in pedant mode I see.
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Topic Originator: londonparsfan
Date: Mon 5 Aug 23:00
Some mature adults are slavering half wits. How are they more eligible to vote than a degree calibre 17 year old?
The argument isn't how much a 16 or 17 year old pays in tax as the right to vote isnt and should never be means tested on how much tax someone pays. Top rate tax payers dont get more of a vote share than lower rate tax payers. The argument is that 16 & 17 year olds are legally liable for tax and therefore should have the right to decide how their tax revenue is spent. If 16 & 17 year olds are working full time but earning minimum wage they're probably going to pay nothing in tax as they're likely earning less than their personal allowance but then is it fair that the minimum wage is set at less for them than an over 25 if the job is the same?
Adults don't have to take an IQ test to show they're clever or mature enough to vote so why are 16 & 17 year olds all being lumped into a bucket as not being capable enough?
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Topic Originator: wee eck
Date: Mon 5 Aug 23:15
As soon as a poll shows a majority in favour of independence the age eligibility of the electorate is questioned!
One thing I've never understood is why, if Scotland is such an economic basket case, do Tories want to keep us in the Union? Their motive can't be altruistic as I've never come across an altruistic Tory in my life.
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Topic Originator: Andrew283
Date: Tue 6 Aug 00:25
You'll never get an honest answer to that question. People. Like Parbucks can't accept that education standards nowadays are light years ahead of what he experienced.
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Topic Originator: Tenruh
Date: Tue 6 Aug 07:46
Quote:
londonparsfan, Mon 5 Aug 21:19
Every generation says the kids didn't have to do what they did.
There's some pretty decent arguments out there that the Baby Boomer generation have completely ballsed things up.
That will be the I'm all right Jack generation then... Ring any bells?
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Topic Originator: 1985Par
Date: Tue 6 Aug 08:24
"You'll never get an honest answer to that question. People. Like Parbucks can't accept that education standards nowadays are light years ahead of what he experienced. "
As a parent of teenagers and a teacher with 20 years experience I can tell you they aren't. Revamping the curriculum a million times and flooding schools with Ipads hasn't lifted standards a jot. If anything standards have decreased. Significantly.
Post Edited (Tue 06 Aug 08:25)
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Topic Originator: Wotsit
Date: Tue 6 Aug 08:57
The statistics disagree.
Improvements in diet and other early years lifestyle improvements (like better healthcare and not being traumatised by domestic violence every Friday night) has meant that the average cognitive capacity has increased generation on generation.
I'm in my late 40s was a tearaway at school, constantly in trouble for something or other and completely lacking respect for teachers. I wasn't alone either, about 30% of my year was like that. I went to a pretty average school too, so it's not like it was an outlier.
My behaviour back then would have me seeing a psychologist straight away if I were young and tried that now but it was pretty normal 'boys will be boys' type stuff 30 years ago.
When I go into schools now I can't believe how orderly and relatively calm they are. In my day their would have been kids fighting and shouting at each other with teachers shouting back during every break and lunchtime.
The trouble with kids these days is that they have too much respect.
"Who you are and what you feel comes not just from inside you, but from where you are in the power structure"
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Topic Originator: sammer
Date: Tue 6 Aug 10:31
I’m not sure what statistics you are using here wotsit; some of the areas you comment on are pretty much unmeasurable.
I’m not convinced diet is any better than before; the plethora of fast food outlets suggest it may even be worse. In my childhood Americans were generally considered to be overweight but it seems we have caught up with them in the obesity stakes. School sports days are now more of an open fun day than a test of athletic ability and the British army regularly complains that recruits are lacking basic stamina and fitness. The ‘stranger danger’ terror means that fewer children are seen playing or cycling without adult supervision which limits the exercise they can take.
It’s true that there are fewer pubs these days and it’s an effort to find a tobacconist, but I suspect it is more a case that the choice of drug has changed. Domestic violence is very hard to measure, but the notion that it was common for men to come back home drunk from the pub and start beating up their wives is a re-writing of history. I came from a fairly notorious part of Abbey View and that was a rarity in the 1960s; in fact about half of the men in my street rarely drank at all, if ever.
As regards cognitive capacity, I would work on the assumption it changes very little from generation to generation. Young people today can surprise us with their lack of knowledge in areas we consider necessary, but they have adapted to pick up other forms of knowledge that to them seem relevant. Their instinct to disregard what appears to them obsolete knowledge will be as acute as ours was at their age. No doubt they will sometimes throw out the baby with the bathwater, but it was ever thus.
What is long overdue is an agreement on what used to be called ‘the age of majority.’ Paying taxes, army service, marriage, legal responsibility, access to legal drugs and weapons, jury service, voting , driving etc. are a bit of a mish-mash.
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Topic Originator: OzPar
Date: Tue 6 Aug 16:10
Yup, if you can join the Army at 16 - and by implication be prepared to die for your country - then you are old enough to vote. End of story.
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Topic Originator: jake89
Date: Tue 6 Aug 17:21
Must have been hard for all those pensioners with all that full employment, cheap houses and being paid to go to university right enough. Kids these days don't know how easy they have it.
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Topic Originator: Wotsit
Date: Wed 7 Aug 09:02
Sorry Sammer, I should have been clearer. The stats are IQ results Not perfect, I know, but there is a clear upward trend from generation to generation.
I was specifically referring to early years (0-3) nutrition which has improved dramatically over the past 100 years. And whilst burgers aren't perfect they're a damn sight better than 'bread and dripping if you're lucky.' Although my experience is that young people these days are more likely to have avocado and quinoa than a burger: it's not us oldies who are fueling the massive rise in veganism!!
This early years nutrition means better development, including the brain and subsequently cognitive abilities.
My gran's generation regularly faced the sort of nutrition based issues that would cause huge scandal today. Can you imagine the scandal if folk started getting rickets again? Or if we had thousands of kids running around with obvious signs of malnutrition?
Then there's the advances in nutrition during pregnancy which have given kids a much better start too.
Sorry again for being so vague, I suspect that I intended to expand on those points and got distracted!
"Who you are and what you feel comes not just from inside you, but from where you are in the power structure"
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Topic Originator: desparado
Date: Wed 7 Aug 13:04
Can you imagine the scandal if folk started getting rickets again? Or if we had thousands of kids running around with obvious signs of malnutrition?
Rickets is making a comeback and is currently at a fifty year high.....I wonder why ? For the supposedly fifth richest country in the world it is an absolute disgrace.
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Topic Originator: jake89
Date: Wed 7 Aug 19:00
Were the recent issues with rickets not attributed to kids not getting outside enough anymore rather than diet?
You know? Outside? Jumpers for goalposts. Smashing.
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Topic Originator: desparado
Date: Wed 7 Aug 21:07
It is a factor for sure but poverty is the main cause. It is also the reason Scurvy, scarlet fever and yes......malnutrition figures have rocketed in the last few years...
Great country we live in eh ?
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Topic Originator: Wotsit
Date: Wed 7 Aug 22:20
They are certainly rising at an alarming rate, but the cases are in the high hundreds rather than the millions, as they were 100 years ago. We're not exactly at Victorian levels of social neglect yet, but we're definitely moving in the wrong direction if our goal is to avoid it.
One problem with most foodbanks is that they only provide "ambient" non-perishables, so stuff like fresh fruit and veg isn't available, with the inevitable dietary issues from too much reliance on them. If you have trouble getting your kind to eat broccoli, try them on tinned spinach that's the only veg ion your food parcel (they probably have no idea who Popeye is, and even if they do they're not eating it unless they can squeeze the tin open)
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Topic Originator: sadindiefreak
Date: Thu 8 Aug 15:21
Quote:
parbucks, Mon 5 Aug 20:40
I say that with some level of experience with four grandchildren aged between 16-19. At 17 they are more interested in learning to drive than worrying about the politics of the day.
Have you considered they are into politics but don't want to discuss it with a swivel eyed right winger.
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Topic Originator: Bandy
Date: Thu 8 Aug 17:49
'Right winger' is fine, no need to prefix it with 'swivel-eyed'.
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Topic Originator: jake89
Date: Thu 8 Aug 19:00
I wouldn't belittle today's young people. Studies have shown they are leading far healthier lives than previous generations and are much more aware of the world.
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Topic Originator: desparado
Date: Thu 8 Aug 19:02
Rumour has it that the private poll commissioned by UK Gov that they have suppressed was 57 % Yes.
James OBrien show from the other day is worth a listen to, wall to wall Yes with Poles and English people in favour.
Yet still our bought and biased and pathetic media in Scotland almost refuse to mention it.
Is there any other country in the developed world where the media is so biased.?
57% yes in a country where the media is controlled by people whose self interest will be damaged by Scottish independence is quite remarkable.
Mario and CDF have been remarkably quiet on this matter........Tick tock....
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Topic Originator: parbucks
Date: Thu 8 Aug 20:30
Sadindie
“Have you considered they are into politics but don't want to discuss it with a swivel eyed right winger.”
I won’t demean myself by reducing to your level of debate.
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Topic Originator: parbucks
Date: Thu 8 Aug 20:43
James O’Brien on LBC has waged a campaign against Brexit for the last 3 years.
He is obsessed by it.
It would be no surprise to find that the phone ins on his show are overwhelmingly in favour of Remain because that is his target audience.
I stopped listening to him about 3 years ago.
Much better listening to Nick Ferrari who broadcasts immediately before him.
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Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks
Date: Thu 8 Aug 21:19
Let me guess. Nick Ferrari is pro brexit and that's why you prefer to listen to him.
And although my eyes were open
They just might as well be closed
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Topic Originator: parbucks
Date: Thu 8 Aug 22:22
😉
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Topic Originator: Mario
Date: Fri 9 Aug 10:25
Despy there is an unwritten rule on here that one’s name does not appear on a thread unless put there by oneself. I know this unwritten rule because I didn’t write it myself.
Manners maketh man and all that. Thats why I have deleted the unmannerly bit as perhaps you were unaware of the niceties.
Post Edited (Fri 09 Aug 14:29)
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Topic Originator: moviescot
Date: Fri 9 Aug 20:41
Eh. Wtf....
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