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 Waspi women lose court case
Topic Originator: Buspasspar  
Date:   Thu 3 Oct 11:16

Campaigners have lost a significant legal battle against the government's handling of the rise in women's state pension age.

Ah weel what would we have done with the Β£36,000 anyway
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 Re: Waspi women lose court case
Topic Originator: LochgellyAlbert  
Date:   Thu 3 Oct 12:37

My wife is really disappointed with this, further case regarding maladministration to come, plus an appeal. 🐝🐝🐝
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 Re: Waspi women lose court case
Topic Originator: Buspasspar  
Date:   Thu 3 Oct 15:22

Mine as well LA The Government did her out of 4 years old age pension
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 Re: Waspi women lose court case
Topic Originator: donj  
Date:   Thu 3 Oct 15:47

My wife still has around 20 months to wait as her pension age shot up to 66 when she expected to retire at 60.Apparently it was supposed to phase in not jump up in one foul swoop.
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 Re: Waspi women lose court case
Topic Originator: Andrew283  
Date:   Thu 3 Oct 15:58

Pensions should be set from when you are born. Governments can gtf with changing this as we get older and are expecting to retire at a set age.
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 Re: Waspi women lose court case
Topic Originator: jake89  
Date:   Thu 3 Oct 20:08

Have to forgive my ignorance on the matter, but why was the pension age ever lower for women? Men generally die younger so it doesn't make sense to offer pensions to women at a younger age.

I think the reality is that future generations won't get a state pension. You can see this happening already with the government pushing business to effectively force pensions on people.
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 Re: Waspi women lose court case
Topic Originator: Buspasspar  
Date:   Thu 3 Oct 20:54

jake89

copied from the web




HISTORY OF STATE PENSION AGE

1908 - age 70
The first state pension in the UK was the Old Age Pension. The law was passed in August 1908 and the first pensions paid on 1 January 1909 to around 500,000 people aged 70 or more. It was 5/= (five shillings or 25p) a week and was paid in full to individuals aged 70 or more with an annual income of Β£21 a year or less reducing to nothing at an annual income of Β£31 a year. A higher pension of 7/6 (62.5p) was paid to a married man. At the time only one in four people reached the age of 70 and life expectancy at that age was about 9 years.

1925 - age 65
In 1925 a new kind of pension was introduced based on contributions paid at work by employer and employee. It was paid from age 65 without a means-test. A married couple's rate of pension was paid if both spouses were aged 65 or more. That meant many men had to wait for some time after they reached 65 to get the higher rate for their wives.

1940 - men age 65, women age 60
In 1940 pension age for women was cut to 60 to try to ensure for most couples that the married rate would be paid as soon as the husband reached 65.

1948 - retirement condition added
From 1948, men had to retire as well as reach 65 to claim the new Retirement Pension paid under the National Insurance scheme. If their wife was still under 60 when they reached 65 and retired they could now claim a dependant's addition for her.
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 Re: Waspi women lose court case
Topic Originator: Andrew283  
Date:   Thu 3 Oct 21:24

The retirement age should be exactly the same for both genders. At the rate we're going ill be lucky to get anything back before I'm dead
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 Re: Waspi women lose court case
Topic Originator: GG Riva  
Date:   Fri 4 Oct 08:10

Thanks for posting the history of British pensions, Bus pass. That was really interesting and explains how the discrepancy between men and women arose. I can well understand why those women who have been adversely affected by the changes feel cheated - my wife has to wait until she's 67 - but as the judge commented yesterday, it's actually men who have been discriminated against, having to wait 5 years more when their life expectancy is less.

Quote:

Andrew283, Thu 3 Oct 21:24

The retirement age should be exactly the same for both genders. At the rate we're going ill be lucky to get anything back before I'm dead


Sadly, in many cases that will be true, Andrew. It's hard to escape the conclusion that the Government banks on a significant %age of the population won't make it, thus saving them a fortune.



Not your average Sunday League player.
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 Re: Waspi women lose court case
Topic Originator: Buspasspar  
Date:   Fri 4 Oct 10:00

Topic Originator: GG Riva
Date: Fri 4 Oct 08:10

Thanks for posting the history of British pensions, Bus pass. That was really interesting and explains how the discrepancy between men and women arose. I can well understand why those women who have been adversely affected by the changes feel cheated - my wife has to wait until she's 67 - but as the judge commented yesterday, it's actually men who have been discriminated against, having to wait 5 years more when their life expectancy is less.


GG Here is the whole page its worth a read and also note how it was to be a slow relaxed introduction into what we have now


http://www.web40571.clarahost.co.uk/statepensionage/SPA_history.htm
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 Re: Waspi women lose court case
Topic Originator: LochgellyAlbert  
Date:   Fri 4 Oct 13:12

Quote:

Andrew283, Thu 3 Oct 21:24

The retirement age should be exactly the same for both genders. At the rate we're going ill be lucky to get anything back before I'm dead


Think you'll find that men have 3 times the pension pot that females have, women have generally worked part time jobs all their life whilst bringing up families. They have had much lower pay than males and less chance of promotions due to discrimination. The qualification for SPA is now 35 years of NI contributions, my wife has 50yrs at this point, with still a year to go. Will this make a difference to her basic SPA? NO!
The whole pension system is a joke, with the UK paying out the lowest and the highest age in the Western world, even Poland just dropped to 60yrs.
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 Re: Waspi women lose court case
Topic Originator: donj  
Date:   Fri 4 Oct 15:00

It's only recently pay has been equalised in some jobs and for years before a woman earned way less than a man for doing the same work.
At least I suppose the pensions now are separate rather than having a couples pension lower than two individual pensions.Mind you it wouldn't surprise me if they try to bring that back to save money.
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 Re: Waspi women lose court case
Topic Originator: Andrew283  
Date:   Fri 4 Oct 15:12

Quote:

LochgellyAlbert, Fri 4 Oct 13:12

Quote:

Andrew283, Thu 3 Oct 21:24

The retirement age should be exactly the same for both genders. At the rate we're going ill be lucky to get anything back before I'm dead


Think you'll find that men have 3 times the pension pot that females have, women have generally worked part time jobs all their life whilst bringing up families. They have had much lower pay than males and less chance of promotions due to discrimination. The qualification for SPA is now 35 years of NI contributions, my wife has 50yrs at this point, with still a year to go. Will this make a difference to her basic SPA? NO!
The whole pension system is a joke, with the UK paying out the lowest and the highest age in the Western world, even Poland just dropped to 60yrs.


Sorry, should have mentioned that I was talking more about people in my age band where the whole stay at home to care for the kids scenario doesn't really exist anymore as families have absolutely 0 chance to survive on a single wage anymore.
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 Re: Waspi women lose court case
Topic Originator: jake89  
Date:   Fri 4 Oct 16:22

Thanks for the explanations. The mentions of husband and wife are frankly ridiculous in the 21st century.

Genuinely believe we're going to reach a point where state pensions are abolished and replaced with a "benefit" for those who don't have a sufficient pension.
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 Re: Waspi women lose court case
Topic Originator: LochgellyAlbert  
Date:   Fri 4 Oct 16:26

Quote:

Andrew283, Fri 4 Oct 15:12

Sorry, should have mentioned that I was talking more about people in my age band where the whole stay at home to care for the kids scenario doesn't really exist anymore as families have absolutely 0 chance to survive on a single wage anymore.


And grandparents no longer available for child minding duties because they are still working, thus causing more expense for parents.
Interesting that the Civil Service and Westminster still pay out occupational pensions at 60yrs and need 15yrs notice of changes!
Meanwhile Ian Duncan Smith wants to move SPA to 75yrs., make the peasants work!
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 Re: Waspi women lose court case
Topic Originator: LochgellyAlbert  
Date:   Fri 4 Oct 16:30

https://bylinetimes.com/2019/07/01/a-department-in-disarray-the-secret-memos-revealing-the-truth-behind-the-back-to-60-pensions-scandal/
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 Re: Waspi women lose court case
Topic Originator: LochgellyAlbert  
Date:   Fri 4 Oct 16:32

https://davidhencke.com/2018/06/05/the-downing-street-state-pension-robbery/
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 Re: Waspi women lose court case
Topic Originator: sammer  
Date:   Fri 4 Oct 17:16

The state pension is one area where reality cannot easily be obscured: it is a test of how a government honours its promises, how it acknowledges the contribution its senior citizens have made. No amount of distraction from the likes of Brexit, Royal Family kids going to nursery or the false threat of foreign invasion can disguise that reality.
The UK is a rich country paying poor pensions, and has broken its implied promise given when these women received their National Insurance number. It (the process started under the Blair regime) has plundered five years money from them - as a bloke I am getting off light with just one year’s theft.
The attempt to justify pension theft on the grounds of gender equality is about as convincing as looters breaking shop windows claiming they are equalising wealth.
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 Re: Waspi women lose court case
Topic Originator: Buspasspar  
Date:   Fri 4 Oct 17:28

Sammer do you think this is up for interpretation Punish the women and raise the pension age or reward the men and lower it ?

1995 - women's state pension age to be equalised
Following pressure from Europe, the Conservative Government was forced to announce plans to equalise state pension age for men and women. The timetable was the most relaxed possible and would raise pension age for women to 65 slowly from April 2010 to April 2020.
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 Re: Waspi women lose court case
Topic Originator: LochgellyAlbert  
Date:   Fri 4 Oct 18:27

Sammer...Understand that there were demonstrations in Moscow over state pension threatened increase?
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 Re: Waspi women lose court case
Topic Originator: LochgellyAlbert  
Date:   Fri 4 Oct 18:40

The tables that were worked out for women born 1953!!!
https://twitter.com/lindamumfoo/status/1179897592085434368?s=09
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 Re: Waspi women lose court case
Topic Originator: Buspasspar  
Date:   Fri 4 Oct 18:47

LA my wife sneaked into the 64 age group her workmate and pal missed the cutoff by one day and does not get her pension until she is 67 !!!

Some thing no quite right there :-(
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 Re: Waspi women lose court case
Topic Originator: sammer  
Date:   Fri 4 Oct 18:54

Buspasspar,

I seem to recall a suggestion to equalize the SP at age 63 some time ago, which is still unfair on women who organised their family and working lives around the expectation they would receive a pension aged 60. Ten years to adjust may sound reasonable on paper but it is unreasonable to women whose best working days mostly lie behind them.

LA, Yes there were indeed demonstrations against the proposed raising of the pension age in Moscow and Putin was a little unnerved. Usually he can dismiss demonstrations as being funded by the CIA, and possibly with some justification. This one was different, had wide support, and he backed off a bit, deciding to phase the increases in age more gradually. But still effectively the same game as is being played in the West.
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 Re: Waspi women lose court case
Topic Originator: LochgellyAlbert  
Date:   Sat 21 Dec 10:13

As the French have been rioting most of the last fortnight against the change in their Pension rights, it's worth bringing the UK case to the fore again.
Although court case was lost, the2 judges, 1 male and 1 female, the male judge anounced the summary and dismissal, the female judge was nowhere to be seen!
An appeal has been put in which I believe was approved by the original male judge???
Confused, certainly!


FOI http://data.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/committeeevidence.svc/evidencedocument/work-and-pensions-committee/understanding-the-new-state-pension/written/25211.html
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 Re: Waspi women lose court case
Topic Originator: veteraneastender  
Date:   Sat 21 Dec 10:43

"The attempt to justify pension theft on the grounds of gender equality is about as convincing as looters breaking shop windows claiming they are equalising wealth"

'Er indoors qualified for state pension at 60, as did all women born before 5th April 1950, and I had to wait until 65 like all men in my age bracket.

So, clearly, there was no gender equality under the then existing regulations and women benefitted significantly over those 5 years compared to men.

Of course, the government could have reduced state pension age to 60 for both genders...........................that was never going to happen.

The fairest way would have been to equalise it at 62.5 years of age for everybody.
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 Re: Waspi women lose court case
Topic Originator: McCaig`s Tower  
Date:   Sat 21 Dec 13:45

How much would equalising at 62.5 cost, vee?

The problem all western economies are facing is that people are living longer and longer. State Pensions are paid by today's workers through their taxes.

There used to be 9 workers for every pensioner. Now the ratio is heading towards 2. Maintaining the 2015 average would mean pension ages rising to 73 world-wide by 2050.

Unless you want to burden your children and grandchildren with huge tax burdens, something's got to give.
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 Re: Waspi women lose court case
Topic Originator: Wotsit  
Date:   Sat 21 Dec 13:55

It doesn't help that people are, on average, earning less.

Or that pension funds were raided when times were good.
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 Re: Waspi women lose court case
Topic Originator: LochgellyAlbert  
Date:   Sat 21 Dec 14:19

Quote:

McCaig`s Tower, Sat 21 Dec 13:45

How much would equalising at 62.5 cost, vee?

The problem all western economies are facing is that people are living longer and longer.

Apart from the UK which seems to be heading in the opposite direction due to Ian Duncan Smith and his cronies!
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 Re: Waspi women lose court case
Topic Originator: veteraneastender  
Date:   Sat 21 Dec 18:27

"How much would equalising at 62.5 cost, vee?"

My grasp of economics is on a par with Mr.Micawber - but if you took from one and gave it to the other that would level out the overall costs ?

Of course it would have to have been phased in gradually.
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 Re: Waspi women lose court case
Topic Originator: donj  
Date:   Sat 21 Dec 21:42

Pretty sure I read there was a pot for pensions that the government put money in to keep it solvent but the Tories dodged it hence taxpayers pay to run it now.I'll find the article sometime to put up.
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 Re: Waspi women lose court case
Topic Originator: LochgellyAlbert  
Date:   Sun 22 Dec 09:47

Quote:

donj, Sat 21 Dec 21:42

Pretty sure I read there was a pot for pensions that the government put money in to keep it solvent but the Tories dodged it hence taxpayers pay to run it now.I'll find the article sometime to put up.


Link on page one of this thread!
https://davidhencke.com/2018/07/19/revealed-the-271-billion-rape-of-the-national-insurance-fund-that-deprived-50s-women-of-their-state-pension/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

Post Edited (Sun 22 Dec 09:48)
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 Re: Waspi women lose court case
Topic Originator: veteraneastender  
Date:   Sun 22 Dec 17:42

Not raising the pension age for women would still have left the obvious unresolved discriminatory issue.
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 Re: Waspi women lose court case
Topic Originator: LochgellyAlbert  
Date:   Sun 22 Dec 19:37

It ain't about discrimination, it's about notification of the changes, there are still women who think they are retiring at 60.

If you had a private pension and expecting to retire at 60, then informed it wasn't happening until you were 66, the company would be up in court.
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 Re: Waspi women lose court case
Topic Originator: The One Who Knocks  
Date:   Sun 22 Dec 20:12

I doubt any women now, who are under 60,believe they will be an oap when they hit 60.

We all hate poverty, war, and injustice.
Unlike the rest of you squares.
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 Re: Waspi women lose court case
Topic Originator: sadindiefreak  
Date:   Sun 22 Dec 20:50

Quote:

The One Who Knocks, Sun 22 Dec 20:12

I doubt any women now, who are under 60,believe they will be an oap when they hit 60.


There are still some out there.
Especially those who don't take an interest in politics or current events.
A friend of my mums who this will effect only found out a couple of weeks before the general election and only because she was on a night out with similar aged women who started talking about it.
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 Re: Waspi women lose court case
Topic Originator: donj  
Date:   Sun 22 Dec 20:55

Advice was supposed to be sent out to advise but they saved cash and only sent out a few letters.The pension system worked till the Tories and Gordon Brown got in about it.Actually all Tories as he was no more Labour than Blair.
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 Re: Waspi women lose court case
Topic Originator: veteraneastender  
Date:   Sun 22 Dec 22:27

"It ain't about discrimination, it's about notification of the changes, there are still women who think they are retiring at 60."

The notification aspect is a separate issue.

Women getting the state pension at 60 and men at 65 is clear and absolute discrimination against one gender.

That's why the government had to equalise it - and chose to raise it for women because the alternative was "unacceptable" politically.

"If you had a private pension and expecting to retire at 60, then informed it wasn't happening until you were 66, the company would be up in court."

Any private pension provider that was paying a retirement pension at 60 for one gender and 65 for the other would have been up in court long ago with an indefensible case to answer.



Post Edited (Sun 22 Dec 22:29)
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 Re: Waspi women lose court case
Topic Originator: sammer  
Date:   Sun 22 Dec 23:04

'Any private pension provider that was paying a retirement pension at 60 for one gender and 65 for the other would have been up in court long ago with an indefensible case to answer.'

I think you are underestimating the legal profession. They could argue that a contract, signed at the age of 16, has been broken by the provider. Which is undeniable really.

It then becomes a matter of why it was necessary to break the contract. I don't think the discrimination defence holds that much water since it could have been introduced for younger age groups and therefore not affected the women it has. Justice trumps discrimination where they come into conflict, just as being treated fairly trumps being treated equally.
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 Re: Waspi women lose court case
Topic Originator: jake89  
Date:   Mon 23 Dec 00:31

Perhaps a daft question, but how does the system work for a transgender person?
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 Re: Waspi women lose court case
Topic Originator: londonparsfan  
Date:   Mon 23 Dec 00:48

Once they have obtained a gender recognition certificate they are treated the same as all other women.

I assume transgender men will be treated the same as a man.

Post Edited (Mon 23 Dec 00:49)
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 Re: Waspi women lose court case
Topic Originator: MikeyLeonard  
Date:   Mon 23 Dec 07:44

Quote:

jake89, Mon 23 Dec 00:31

Perhaps a daft question, but how does the system work for a transgender person?


Good question Jake. . .and also, what about those who see themselves as Agender ?
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 Re: Waspi women lose court case
Topic Originator: veteraneastender  
Date:   Mon 23 Dec 08:44

"I don't think the discrimination defence holds that much water since it could have been introduced for younger age groups and therefore not affected the women it has. Justice trumps discrimination where they come into conflict, just as being treated fairly trumps being treated equally."

Apparently the judge agreed with the discrimination aspect.

At some point the qualifying age for state pension was going to have to be syncronised.

"Perhaps a daft question, but how does the system work for a transgender person?"

What about single people, or widow/widowers aged under 60 or 65 respectively ?



Post Edited (Mon 23 Dec 08:58)
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 Re: Waspi women lose court case
Topic Originator: sadindiefreak  
Date:   Mon 23 Dec 09:01

Quote:

veteraneastender, Mon 23 Dec 08:44

"I don't think the discrimination defence holds that much water since it could have been introduced for younger age groups and therefore not affected the women it has. Justice trumps discrimination where they come into conflict, just as being treated fairly trumps being treated equally."

Apparently the judge agreed with the discrimination aspect.

At some point the qualifying age for state pension was going to have to be syncronised.


The WASPI women agree that the ages for retirement should be the same.
The problem is that they were not informed it was going to happen.
This has resulted in them not being able to make adequate provision for their retirement.

You are doing what the Tories are doing by muddying the waters.
There is absolutely no problem with the retirement age being brought in line with each other.
You need to tell people you are doing it though.
Firstly Labour failed to tell people. Then the Tories accelerated the process and again didn't tell anyone.
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 Re: Waspi women lose court case
Topic Originator: veteraneastender  
Date:   Mon 23 Dec 10:55

"The problem is that they were not informed it was going to happen."

How far back does this go?

I mind explaining the implications to some of the ladies in our office about 12 years ago.

They knew changes would effect them, but were confused on the specific details as it would impact on them individually.



Post Edited (Mon 23 Dec 11:01)
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 Re: Waspi women lose court case
Topic Originator: LochgellyAlbert  
Date:   Mon 23 Dec 13:29

Recent post in WASPI group on Twitter was a 62yr old lady who expected to retire at 60 and was unaware of changes.

And she worked for the DWP!!!
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 Re: Waspi women lose court case
Topic Originator: LochgellyAlbert  
Date:   Mon 23 Dec 13:31

When you see how the MP's pension scheme is ring fenced, you might understand the anger!🐝🐝🐝
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 Re: Waspi women lose court case
Topic Originator: jake89  
Date:   Mon 23 Dec 14:35

The transgender thing seems an issue. I read about it and there was a man who transitioned to a woman but had to go to court as he hadn't filled in the paperwork (so was still legally a he). She won and got her paperwork.

So if I was a man of a certain age who changed sex I'd be getting my pension at 60. So if you were a woman becoming a man then it wouldn't be in your interests to legally transition as if you did you'd be waiting until 65.
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 Re: Waspi women lose court case
Topic Originator: LochgellyAlbert  
Date:   Mon 23 Mar 11:35

Just bringing this to the fore again.

The World Health Organisation says that all people over 60 are at risk from this Coronavirus and more so over 70's.

The UK government are not following this line as there are now more over 60's in employment!

So thinking of the menial jobs these people do, both male and female, be kind to them, don't blame the checkout operator when there are no toilet rolls!

Think the figures for life expectancy will be affected?
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 Re: Waspi women lose court case
Topic Originator: LochgellyAlbert  
Date:   Mon 23 Mar 11:39

I was speaking to my financial advisor at a Pars game recently and asked him whether the financial industry new about the changes.

He stated that they were not aware of the changes, and his wife is a 1950's born lady!
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 Re: Waspi women lose court case
Topic Originator: LochgellyAlbert  
Date:   Sat 23 May 18:06

Some other vital information for the appeal coming up!

https://davidhencke.com/2020/05/22/exclusive-the-4-6-million-men-who-retired-at-60-to-get-a-pension-top-up-paid-by-the-taxpayer/amp/?__twitter_impression=true
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 Re: Waspi women lose court case
Topic Originator: Buspasspar  
Date:   Sun 24 May 08:15

thanks for that LA
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 Re: Waspi women lose court case
Topic Originator: LochgellyAlbert  
Date:   Thu 9 Jul 11:40

Time for those hitting 50 to join the campaign!

https://restless.co.uk/press/rishi-sunaks-youth-kickstart-scheme-could-leave-660k-over-50s-on-universal-credit/?fbclid=IwAR1SuLDsM6ELky5LCmyHepSsr_m8J-HqY2QZ_VEzJkVkfrteMG3SVahbzN
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 Re: Waspi women lose court case
Topic Originator: LochgellyAlbert  
Date:   Tue 14 Jul 12:56

Ironic??πŸ€”πŸ˜‘πŸ˜‘πŸ˜‘

https://twitter.com/raptapsally/status/1282762911774117890?s=09
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 Re: Waspi women lose court case
Topic Originator: jake89  
Date:   Tue 14 Jul 13:23

Civil servants don't make policy decisions.
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 Re: Waspi women lose court case
Topic Originator: charlie1  
Date:   Tue 14 Jul 13:43

Quote:

jake89, Tue 14 Jul 13:23

Civil servants don't make policy decisions.


Tell Dominic Cummings that!
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 Re: Waspi women lose court case
Topic Originator: LochgellyAlbert  
Date:   Fri 24 Jul 15:52

The appeal was Tuesday and Wednesday, here is a summary.

https://davidhencke.com/2020/07/24/50-womens-pensions-an-extraordinary-judicial-review-appeal-hearing/amp/?__twitter_impression=true
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 Re: Waspi women lose court case
Topic Originator: LochgellyAlbert  
Date:   Wed 9 Jun 11:46

Bringing this to the fore again, going to be fireworks in Westminster!

https://inews.co.uk/news/uk/state-pension-age-changes-row-leaked-reports-suggest-watchdog-maladministration-1040479?ITO=newsnow
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 Re: Waspi women lose court case
Topic Originator: LochgellyAlbert  
Date:   Sun 13 Jun 11:59

Interesting dissection of Ombudsman's findings!πŸ€”πŸ˜·πŸ€¬πŸ€¬

https://davidhencke.com/2021/06/12/50s-women-pensions-flaws-in-the-parliamentary-ombudsmans-preliminary-maladministration-report/amp/?__twitter_impression=true
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 Re: Waspi women lose court case
Topic Originator: Buspasspar  
Date:   Tue 20 Jul 12:30

From Aunty :-

Government officials were too slow to tell many women they would be affected by the rising state pension age, the Parliamentary Ombudsman has ruled.

The finding brings the prospect of compensation closer for thousands of women born in the 1950s who have long been furious about the issue.
It marks a significant victory for the Waspi (Women Against State Pension Inequality) campaign.

However, the ombudsman has no power to refund "lost" pensions.
It is also unable to recommend that anyone receive their state pension any earlier than the current law allows.

We are forever shaped by the Children we once were
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 Re: Waspi women lose court case
Topic Originator: LochgellyAlbert  
Date:   Tue 20 Jul 17:29

https://andrewgwynne.co.uk/mps-respond-to-ombudsman-findings-on-1950s-womens-pensions/?fbclid=IwAR2VM0okyHLMYeMx2WLA93jpr3-l5eDV8yoCM_YinXCC9E8w6YzuXPsKenA
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 Re: Waspi women lose court case
Topic Originator: Buspasspar  
Date:   Tue 20 Jul 17:41

Mon the Waspi`s .. :)

We are forever shaped by the Children we once were
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